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Nine

ANSWERED:Hidden Refusals for Holidays

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Posted (edited)

I first created this topic thinking there was a problem with fertility increasing refusal chances, but thanks to some other people sharing their experiences it's now known the problem is with holiday dragons when breeding with a new dragon during their respective seasons.

 

There seems to be a "hidden" refusal for many pairs of holiday x commons that are bred for the first time during holidays. Even though there is a 100% guaranteed chance at successful breeding during holidays, even with dragons that previously refused, some pairs seem to 'refuse' the first breeding even when they produce eggs. They remain on the breeding list for each other until bred outside of the holiday, where they refuse proper. Being bred outside of the holidays doesn't count as their "first time" mechanically, since Fertility should be able to help prevent refusals but it doesn't in this situation.

 

I think there needs to be made a note,  somewhere, that dragons can still refuse during the holidays, even if it doesn't properly register and they still produce eggs, so more people can be made aware and hopefully use Fertility even during holidays despite it having no effect on egg production. Or maybe rework holiday breedings so they cannot have hidden refusals during first time seasonal breedings. Or even rework Fertility so it can erase the hidden refusals and have the first out of season breeding be the first time.

 

It's easy to get blindsided by this hidden probability of refusals since the dragons still show up in the breeding list, you don't know if they secretly refused or not, and I know I never considered using Fertility during holidays anyways because it's said to be a 100% guarantee. Hopefully this all makes sense.

Edited by Nine

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Did you breed the holiday x common pairs during the holiday as the first breeding, and not use fertility? I heard cases of people doing that, then having the pair refuse on a normal breeding, even with fertility.

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Did you breed the holiday x common pairs during the holiday as the first breeding, and not use fertility? I heard cases of people doing that, then having the pair refuse on a normal breeding, even with fertility.

 

Yeah, I think in all of my refusals those pairs had successfully bred during a holiday. I know that they can refuse outside of the holidays, I've definitely had that happen before, but I figured their first breeding outside of the holiday would count as their "first time" since holidays are a 100% guarantee. Hmm.

 

Edit: Just tried a Fertility breeding on a new Holiday pair, and no refusal. I think the thing about them being bred first during a holiday has some merit. Which sucks, because I'd never even consider having to use Fertility during a holiday.

Edited by Nine

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3 hours ago, Nine said:

 

Yeah, I think in all of my refusals those pairs had successfully bred during a holiday. I know that they can refuse outside of the holidays, I've definitely had that happen before, but I figured their first breeding outside of the holiday would count as their "first time" since holidays are a 100% guarantee. Hmm.

 

Edit: Just tried a Fertility breeding on a new Holiday pair, and no refusal. I think the thing about them being bred first during a holiday has some merit. Which sucks, because I'd never even consider having to use Fertility during a holiday.

Huh, I had never considered that either. Would explain why my successful holiday pairing now flat out refused. Hopefully come holiday breeding they'll accept each other again, or I'll have to look for another mate....

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I have to say that it DID occur to me so I did all my holidays with a dash of purple where it mattered. :) When I need to breed them outside of holiday season, I'll let you know what happens....

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13 hours ago, Sheriziya said:

Huh, I had never considered that either. Would explain why my successful holiday pairing now flat out refused. Hopefully come holiday breeding they'll accept each other again, or I'll have to look for another mate....

I'm pretty sure they will like each other again next holiday because that has also happened to me before. I can't remember exactly which pair though, and it happened a while ago, but I'm pretty sure that I was able to breed them during the holiday even though they had refused before.

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6 hours ago, Guillotine said:

Refusals are turned off for Holiday breeding, so yeah you'll be fine.
 

Nice :) Thanks! I wasn't sure if that was also the case if a pair had had the same issue as this one now does simply because I hadn't tried it before :D

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To add to this - I had a pair in exactly this position - and they did indeed breed over Christmas.

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On 1/8/2018 at 8:57 AM, fuzzbucket said:

To add to this - I had a pair in exactly this position - and they did indeed breed over Christmas.

Ah, great!

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I'm not an official anything, but this has been my experience, too.  I tried using Fertility for a while and got WAY more refusals from first-time pairs than I'd ever gotten before, so I basically stopped using Fertility except occasionally on a pair that has already bred.

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1 hour ago, sorenna said:

I'm not an official anything, but this has been my experience, too.  I tried using Fertility for a while and got WAY more refusals from first-time pairs than I'd ever gotten before, so I basically stopped using Fertility except occasionally on a pair that has already bred.

That amazes me. Since TJ changed fertility to protect against refusals on new pairs I have used it on every pair that matters and only had 3 refusals with pairs that I used it on. And every one of them involved a Turpentine dragon, which are notably poor breeders.

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Me too, and I haven't had ANY refusals with first time pairs.

 

Not that I've used any turpentines lately...

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I’ve used fertility on hundreds of pairings without fail. If breeding for the first time during a holiday is messing with things, I hope TJ can tweak it!

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Is that "messing" ? JUST in case (I am paranoid) I used it on the holidays I bred in season as well. Why should it not apply equally to them and just be turned off in season ?

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Because holidays are a 100% for sure breeding during their seasons, where even refused pairs can breed again. Thinking to use fertility during a period dragons can never refuse and are guaranteed to produce seems counterintuitive and a waste of fertility. If I had known seasonal breedings had a 'hidden' refusal likelihood I would've obviously used it, at least since Fertility was reworked.

 

I'm going to edit the topic title since this isn't a problem with increased refusals like I thought, but a problem with first time holidays breedings and hidden refusals. There's no way to know if your holiday pair has this hidden refusal either, since they still show up on the breeding list. 

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While this doesn’t fix the problem, and I still hope things are changed because that’s an unpleasant surprise waiting to happen, I would suggest people do mate testings BEFORE the holidays if it’s anything not easily replaceable (ie a lineaged line as opposed to some common CB). Gives you and others a preview of how things will look and sidesteps the issue. I always use fertility to test checkered holiday mates as soon as I get them, and in doing so I’ve unwittingly avoided this issue. Might be worth doing the same until this is fixed.

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Yeah, I think so too. I know I'm definitely going to be doing more outside-holiday breedings in the future, even if this issue gets fixed. Unfortunately, my habit of breeding for the first time during holidays means I've probably got a lot more hidden refusals lying in wait =( What a bummer. 

 

I guess one upside is holiday x holiday pairs are immune to this issue.

Edited by Nine

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...oh joy, this thread was not what I was expecting it to be. Now I am pretty sure I screwed up some lines this Christmas!

 

I'd agree that this is counter-intuitive, would (unsurprisingly) like a bandaid on this of some sort. ;_; I make meticulous use of Fertility, but previously only outside of holiday breedings. Rats.

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I'm not actually sure there's anything needs fixing. Pairs who would normally refuse will always produce in holiday season. Using purples on them reduces the risk of that happening - and that even hold sup if their first breeding is in the holiday season, when they would have bred anyway.

 

After one experience ages ago I have ALWAYS used fertility on holidays with new mates, even in season. Not being funny - but I honestly thought everyone did...

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3 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I'm not actually sure there's anything needs fixing. Pairs who would normally refuse will always produce in holiday season. Using purples on them reduces the risk of that happening - and that even hold sup if their first breeding is in the holiday season, when they would have bred anyway.

 

After one experience ages ago I have ALWAYS used fertility on holidays with new mates, even in season. Not being funny - but I honestly thought everyone did...

 

I'd say it needs fixing because it's counter intuitive. If holidays can't refuse in season, who would think to use fertility on them to remove refusals? And stemming from that logic, who would guess that holidays breeding after the holiday for the first normal time would already be set in stone beyond any hope of fertility helping when, again, they COULDN'T refuse before?

 

I always test fertility on new mates well before the holidays (except CBs, since those are interchangeable), and as such I've had the good fortune not to experience the problem. But I can certainly see the frustration of people who, logically, had no way to guess that not using fertility during a refusal-free period could forever damage their chances of breeding later on.

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4 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

After one experience ages ago I have ALWAYS used fertility on holidays with new mates, even in season. Not being funny - but I honestly thought everyone did...

Meanwhile, this thread is how I learned that this is even a thing and I'm extremely annoyed became I've spent my DC career doing first breedings on holidays so that I could circumvent refusals, and apparently I have shot myself in the foot by doing that. A note of warning would have been greatly appreciated.

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Just now, LibbyLishly said:

Meanwhile, this thread is how I learned that this is even a thing and I'm extremely annoyed became I've spent my DC career doing first breedings on holidays so that I could circumvent refusals, and apparently I have shot myself in the foot by doing that. A note of warning would have been greatly appreciated.

 

To be fair,  it's been known for years that breeding during holidays doesn't mean cooperation after. It's the part where using fertility later on has no affect on refusal reduction because refusal has already been "set" that's surprising (and understandably irritating).

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