Fixing the Current CB Prize System

[Feesh]

Strictly speaking from a number's perspective, a 2nd gen from SA is way harder to get than a 2nd gen prize. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Feesh

[Dragon_Arbock]

Just now, Feesh said:

Strictly speaking from a number's perspective, a 2nd gen from SA is way harder to get than a 2nd gen prize. 

 

Spriters alts aren't given to people for no reason, though, and spriter's alts don't breed more spriter's alts.

[Paradisiske]

Just now, Dragon_Arbock said:

 

Spriters alts aren't given to people for no reason, though, and spriter's alts don't breed more spriter's alts.

exactly. that means there is less of them around significantly compared to cb prizes making their offspring much more scarce

[Whirlaway]

Through all of this in the end, we may or may not get a Prize dragon and, for me personally, I've accepted that fact. An increase to the amount of winners a month could work to spread more Prizes to people or it could not, who knows. Still, in the end, this is all about luck and who knows, this month any of us could win.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@CellyBean I don’t have time to reply to your post in full (bedtime!), so please don’t feel I’m ignoring or nitpicking through your post, but I just wanted to comment on one specific thing.

 

I went to college, and now I work, yet I’m still quite active on DC because it doesn’t take much to be active. Breed / grab eggs, add to hatchery. Repeat every two days. Obviously you can get deeper into it (as I do with lineage planning), but even that doesn’t take much time. It’s very possible to play DC actively without becoming a glued to your computer stay at home hermit, haha! And that’s what’s so great about the store—it was made VERY CAREFULLY to DISALLOW grinding, so that not only would players with heaps of time have huge advantages, but those of us with less time wouldn’t feel the need to play more than we already were. It basically all boils down to a glorified activity check. I believe the suggested “prices” they had were about 6 months for a gold and 1 year for a Prize, and I think those are both reasonable. That’s a huge time investment in a simple game like this. Especially when you consider that with 6 Prize varieties and 2 genders, it would take 12 years of never buying anything else to just get ONE of each combo, and you can’t even do much with singles! (...Actually looking at that math I hope they’ve reworked the requirements to be a bit lower, haha. Maybe they have, haven’t looked there in a while). So while I’m 100% with you on hating grinding, I think the proposed store would be a nice way of rewarding people who have played diligently, but just haven’t had the fast reflexes or ample hunting time to nab CB Metals despite all that time spent trying. Prizes are the same logic, just on an even rarer scale. I like guaranteed returns on investment. It makes me sad to see some long term players who still haven’t gotten many rares, not for lack of trying, and makes me think another route is a good idea.

[Dragon_Arbock]

8 minutes ago, CellyBean said:

exactly. that means there is less of them around significantly compared to cb prizes making their offspring much more scarce

 

I think the thing with them is, though, that an offspring from a spriter's alt isn't really a rare dragon for any reason other than its parent is a recolor. It's still a breed the user can get CB, just not in the same color. There is no normal equivalent for a prize. It's just something I look at and shrug and go 'oh, neat'. It's like the difference between a shiny pokemon, and Zoroark in BW. Zoroark you could only get if you had an event pokemon from a previous generation. A shiny pokemon is a different color of the same species, wheras Zoroark was effectively a breedable event.

I guess spriter's alts to me jsut aren't as much of an issue bacause they're recolors of easily-obtainable breeds. CB Hybrids or Alts I see a case for moreso than spriters alts.

 

the thing I like about trader's canyon is it wouldn't only be for obtaining prizes. We keep talking about how hard or not hard it would be to get a Gold, you could get one from there as well (and everything from there is untradable so I don't think it could be abused).

Edited January 8, 2018 by Dragon_Arbock

[Fiona]

37 minutes ago, Feesh said:

Strictly speaking from a number's perspective, a 2nd gen from SA is way harder to get than a 2nd gen prize. 

 

Depends on the spriter.

[Bison]

The monthly raffles are the fix to the lack of CBs. For a while we thought the raffle was gone for good and I'm thrilled the monthly raffles were started to give everyone a chance to see if RNG will be on their side. I still haven't seen anyone come up with a fairer way to distribute CBs aside from Trader's Canyon, or possibly in-game achievements/trophies.

 

I don't feel like trying to dig for the post any more than I already have (sorry, I just couldn't find it) but the last time I saw a thread like this TJ replied with the statistical probability of repeat raffle winners. The difference would be so small that imo, the time spent coding something like a cooldown for repeat winners would be a waste of time. I personally feel that coding time could be better spent on features that improve the cave for everyone, like BSAs or other suggestions, instead of putting a bandaid on the repeat winner drama. There will always be some people who win more than once and some people will always be angry about that. That's not something that can ever be stopped. So I don't support any suggestion along the lines of a cooldown or limit on raffle wins.

 

As for making CB prizes breed better to deflate the value of G2's faster, eh. I don't particularly care either way. I think easier breeding would be nice, no matter what it does to the "value" of the eggs, since there's still many personal breedings and swaps that I want to do. I could see a deliberate change causing drama by upsetting people who traded quite a lot for G2s, but really anything involving Prizes is a giant dramafest anyways so that may not necessarily be a deal breaker to TJ.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Bison

[Starscream]

I'm just going to say this, everyone who enters has the same chance to get a prize dragon. Its not impossible, it's just random chance. Dragons are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. So if someone wanted to give a CB gold dragon for a 2g 3g, etc Prize, and got it, more power to them. Now if prizes go down in value, an lets say gold dragons go up in value again - then everyone will gripe and moan that they cannot get a CB gold I've been playing since about 2008 and (or 2009 when ever the yule bucks were released) and I have YET to catch a CB gold. I got some from trading 3G prize dragons some years ago - someone was willing to pay it, and I took the offer.

 

The point is, if the prizes are "fixed" then the break happens somewhere else. As I see it, ultimately what a number of people seem to want to do is go into the cave, pick whatever egg they want and go. Golds, mints, prizes etc, all the same equal value. No challenge, no hunt. take what is wanted, as much  as desired and bobs your uncle, perfect game.

 

An example of Real life exclusive hunting -  from a collector.

Exclusives, are something common place in the real world. If you want something exclusive, sometimes you need to pay the price for it. As a collector of transformers, I have a number of exclusives that are limited edition, I have one on pre-order which is one of 400 pieces. I have hunted down exclusive or rare items. It takes time it takes patience, it sometimes takes a miracle to get "holy grails". Is this a fair system? Debatable -  people can easily hoard up figures, reduce supply and demand high prices - if a person is willing to pay these prices, then so be it. As a person who helped with an antique and collectables business as a teenager (family owned it) -  items that were of value were items that were not easily obtained. Have any idea of how many times we had people check something out and say their grandparents had one and threw it out, or used it as firewood? And that they could have got 500 dollars for it? OMG!  -  Lots. but it was actions of people destroying the items that caused the items to get value in the first place. We have also had things with a high price tag sit around until someone who wanted it and was willing to pay what we asked for it. We also had stuff with a crazy price tag go with in a week of its purchase because it was that desirable. On a second note, we have SEEN items of low inherent value go for super high WTF prices because two dealers hated each other (thinking of you rag rug) and it was near impossible to get a rag rug cheap because everyone considered them valuable (they aren't).

 

The only way to drive the prices down is to flood the market (I really see that as a game breaker) or to simply stop offering or accepting high prices for the item in question.

 

I just think people are way too impatient and want something NAO!!!!

 

So the TL:DR of this post is, the system is pretty decently fixed, it does not need fixing any further. Keep entering, be patient, and eventually you can win.

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Starscream The Trader's Canyon suggestion would not only be for Prizes- they use what they call the 'gold standard', meaning that by saving up for a year, people could buy a Gold. 1 Gold per year. It would not be easy, and it would not be devaluing them to being equal to a common- but it would take the luck out of getting one.

The same thing is what a lot of us want for Prizes- to take the luck out of it. Yeah, I /could/ win, but statistically, I most likely will not. And maybe that would be fine, but it is not okay for those Prizes to be a huge part of the trading market when so few users have them. It gives Prize owners an advantage over non-prize owners.

 

Collectors items are one thing, but the thing about those is, for as many legitimate rare collectors items that there are, there are hundreds of knock offs, imitations, and other options that are almost as good as the real thing, or even indistinguishable. That's actually my view on Thuweds, funny enough. You have this group of dragons all with a specific naming scheme, but when you get right down to it, the only thing valuable about them is that TJ owns the CBs. Maybe that adds a lot of collector's value to some, but they're really just any old dragon that I can also get and name in the same scheme if I wanted to. I can get serviceable 'knock offs', so to say.

And even with your examples, you can still own the products you are speaking of. It takes time and money, but you can work towards them. We cannot work towards Prizes as they are now. It is luck, and only luck. Yes, we can trade for 2nd gens, but that's not really want we want.

 

And I mathed it out before. I cannot say how reliably, since TJ will not release entry numbers- but based on his resume, and the estimation of 40,000 active users, it would take 55 1/2 years for everyone to win once. Pardon me, but I think I'll be dead before I win.

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

13 minutes ago, Starscream said:

I'm just going to say this, everyone who enters has the same chance to get a prize dragon. Its not impossible, it's just random chance. Dragons are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. So if someone wanted to give a CB gold dragon for a 2g 3g, etc Prize, and got it, more power to them. Now if prizes go down in value, an lets say gold dragons go up in value again - then everyone will gripe and moan that they cannot get a CB gold I've been playing since about 2008 and (or 2009 when ever the yule bucks were released) and I have YET to catch a CB gold. I got some from trading 3G prize dragons some years ago - someone was willing to pay it, and I took the offer.

 

The point is, if the prizes are "fixed" then the break happens somewhere else. As I see it, ultimately what a number of people seem to want to do is go into the cave, pick whatever egg they want and go. Golds, mints, prizes etc, all the same equal value. No challenge, no hunt. take what is wanted, as much  as desired and bobs your uncle, perfect game.

 

An example of Real life exclusive hunting -  from a collector.

Exclusives, are something common place in the real world. If you want something exclusive, sometimes you need to pay the price for it. As a collector of transformers, I have a number of exclusives that are limited edition, I have one on pre-order which is one of 400 pieces. I have hunted down exclusive or rare items. It takes time it takes patience, it sometimes takes a miracle to get "holy grails". Is this a fair system? Debatable -  people can easily hoard up figures, reduce supply and demand high prices - if a person is willing to pay these prices, then so be it. As a person who helped with an antique and collectables business as a teenager (family owned it) -  items that were of value were items that were not easily obtained. Have any idea of how many times we had people check something out and say their grandparents had one and threw it out, or used it as firewood? And that they could have got 500 dollars for it? OMG!  -  Lots. but it was actions of people destroying the items that caused the items to get value in the first place. We have also had things with a high price tag sit around until someone who wanted it and was willing to pay what we asked for it. We also had stuff with a crazy price tag go with in a week of its purchase because it was that desirable. On a second note, we have SEEN items of low inherent value go for super high WTF prices because two dealers hated each other (thinking of you rag rug) and it was near impossible to get a rag rug cheap because everyone considered them valuable (they aren't).

 

The only way to drive the prices down is to flood the market (I really see that as a game breaker) or to simply stop offering or accepting high prices for the item in question.

 

I just think people are way too impatient and want something NAO!!!!

 

So the TL:DR of this post is, the system is pretty decently fixed, it does not need fixing any further. Keep entering, be patient, and eventually you can win.

 

 

Hmmm. Have you seen the numbers people have calculated? This is not at all about wanting something "NAO", but about wanting the ability to obtain a pixel dragon in a collecting game sometime in the next *decade*. With the current monthly raffle numbers, it will take at *least* ten full years for every currently-active user to get a CB Prize, and frankly that estimate is insanely low. The more accurate estimate, calculated by taking into account TJ's own assertion of 40,000 active users a couple years ago, would be *over 50 years* for every active player to recieve a CB Prize. This has nothing to do with people not being patient or wanting something right away, this is about realistic numbers. Realistically, a system that takes over 50 years to obtain something just isn't a good system. Sure, it's 'decently fixed' in the sense that CB Prizes are once again being won, instead of not being available to anyone at all, but that does *not* mean that it's a good system or that it can't be improved.

 

I don't have  CB Gold. Or CB Silver. Or Neglected. And I don't really care. The things I really want, I work towards, and it takes me a long time to get them (I've been here since 2008 and am still working on my messy-lineaged Golds!). This has nothing to do with wanting to go in and pick up whatever we want right away. This is about making something reasonably accessible, and I personally don't think 50 years is a reasonable timeline. With the store suggestion it would take *months* to save up enough currency to buy *one* CB Prize. That is not 'pick up and go' in any sense of the word. 

[Starscream]

4 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

@Starscream . And maybe that would be fine, but it is not okay for those Prizes to be a huge part of the trading market when so few users have them. It gives Prize owners an advantage over non-prize owners.

 

Then don't pay the asking price for the dragons -  or offer them.

 

(I also buy knockoffs - sometimes they are awesome, sometimes aweful)

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Starscream I do not dabble in Prize trading. Any Prize I have were AP grabs and are messy stairsteps at best- but whenever I want to trade anything else it's hard to find someone not asking for a 2nd gen Prize, and that is something I cannot contend with. Honestly, I wouldn't want a Prize for its value, I would want prizes as a breed, to use in my own projects. That there isn't even a plain or non-prize version of the Tinsel and Shimmer sprites is a shame to me.

 

(They can be- I have to wonder, with 3D printers, what will we be able to access and create in our own homes? But that's neither here nor there).

[Fuzzbucket]

4 hours ago, Feesh said:

If everyone could buy a cb prize, the value of 2nd gen offspring will go down. Eventually, you won't be able to use it to trade for rares like CB Golds, spriter alts and NDs. The best thing you could probably get is a 2nd gen prize swap for new blood. 

 

And this would be a GOOD thing.

 

4 hours ago, Guillotine said:

Prizes losing value is not a bad thing. Consider how much trading power a 2nd gen Prize has compared to literally anything else in the game. They've only recently gone down to one CB Gold instead of two or more. It's unreasonable. Even Neglecteds don't have the same kind of trading power behind them, and they're essentially designed as a secret breed.
 

 

Exactly. GROSSLY over"priced."

 

4 hours ago, Feesh said:

My point is that the trading economy would take a hit and be in shambles for awhile. 

 

Edit: And the focus would just shift to another dragon that people would find issues with obtaining, kind of rinse and repeat. 

 

The trading system is already a shambles because of the prizes. Before there were any, it was much more balanced. And there is no other dragon that could skew it in the way that one won by sheer luck does (and actually I am one of those who is resigned to never winning, though I do favour the store.) In the sense that the current system is totally fair, I have no issue with it. What I do object to very much is the way that it has skewed trading.

 

4 hours ago, LibbyLishly said:

I personally believe that the overpriced 2Gs currently on the market have already messed up the trading economy and devaluing them would restore a semblance of order (and the monthly raffles have already assisted toward that end but more could be done).

 

Yes indeed.

[Process]

Solution: kill all prizes

 

 

So many people seem to be against them why not roll it back 

[Whirlaway]

Ahahaha, I’m dying here, Pro.

 

solution: Annihilate all, haha!

[CursedFlames]

3 minutes ago, Process said:

Solution: kill all prizes

 

So many people seem to be against them why not roll it back 

A lot of people seem to be against a lot of things DC, why not kill all of DC?

[dooblepurple]

1 minute ago, CursedFlames said:

A lot of people seem to be against a lot of things DC, why not kill all of DC?

I agree, we should also destroy the forums as well.

[CursedFlames]

Just now, dooblepurple said:

I agree, we should also destroy the forums as well.

Of course.

[StarSea]

2 hours ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

That's actually my view on Thuweds, funny enough. You have this group of dragons all with a specific naming scheme, but when you get right down to it, the only thing valuable about them is that TJ owns the CBs. Maybe that adds a lot of collector's value to some, but they're really just any old dragon that I can also get and name in the same scheme if I wanted to. I can get serviceable 'knock offs', so to say.

Uh... hate to burst your bubble but I don't think you're going to be able to get "any old" cb hybrid, so while yes, several of the Thuwed pairings are just collectibles for the names and ownership, there's several that are extremely rare and the number will only continue to grow. There are very few cb hybrids out there, let alone any of the newer hybrids, at that. 

[Jazeki]

For the sake of argument, @StarSea, cb hybrids can fall under the realm of "prizes" in @Dragon_Arbock's argument. There is no other way to get them since the removal of HMs, they were prizes, and just as much as a mistake as the introduction of raffles.

 

Dragon Arbock is talking about the value placed in the name, not the breed and never said anything about getting CBs as they are unobtainable/irrelevant to the argument. I have a 2nd gen hybrid Thuwed and her babies do nothing in terms of rarity or trading power. They are only "rare" because TJ doesn't breed often.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Jazeki

[StarSea]

@Jazeki They said that the only thing valuable about Thuweds is that TJ owns them, and that they're just any old dragon, which is untrue. I never said that cb hybrids weren't prize-tier or a mistake, just that they can't make knock-off Thuweds because they can't get cb hybrids. So...

Also, even without the HM raffles, there would be cb prizes either way, just none in the hands of the userbase.

Edited January 8, 2018 by StarSea

[Jazeki]

22 minutes ago, StarSea said:

@Jazeki They said that the only thing valuable about Thuweds is that TJ owns them, and that they're just any old dragon, which is untrue.

Again, they didn't say anything about getting cb versions. You can get a 2nd gen hybrid and call it a Thuwed. You can get a non-hybrid CB dragon and call it a Thuwed. Hence why Thuweds are now verified once TJ breeds them. As we know that only TJ has the power to have CB hybrids, they have to be excluded from the argument.

 

As I said already, CB hybrids, like their prize counterparts, count as a mistake and should have never happened. Lots of people want the return of HMs or the ability to earn cb hybrids in shop, but until then, we know that TJ has said before that hybrids were never intended to be obtainable as cb dragons. He can change his mind, but that is the last clear stance we have.

 

 

Edit: you can make knock offs by just putting Thuwed in the name. A lineaged fake one is just as fake as a cb fake one. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Jazeki

[JavaTigress]

May I comment HERE that I am grateful that raffles now happen more than once a year? This means more chances for winning, correct?

 

I admit that I understand where the people who say the SAME people shouldn't be able to win multiple times in a row. are coming from, but that being said I am inclined to look at the bigger picture. The situation is FAR better than it was, as I see it. MORE prizes mean less stress for those that do win. AND It means more chances for those who didn't to do so in the future. I will also add that I do see the possible problems of trying to implement some sort of mechanic to try to prevent repeat wins. NOT to mention as some have said that would lead to complaints of its own. AS I see it, there isn't any reason to FAULT someone for simply happening to be VERY lucky. That is really all it is. I think that as someone else said, a large part of this is perception.... plus perhaps more than just a hint of 'sour grapes'. 

 

As it stands now... a person doesn't WIN unless they actively enter themselves in the raffle drawing, AFAIK. 

A winner, then, COULD choose to sit the raffle out for a few months... or indefinitely... if they wanted to give others a chance.

I hope I would have the grace to do this, BUT... I can understand the temptation to throw your hat in the ring again.

ESPECIALLY if you didn't happen to win the particular dragon you were hoping for (say a shimmer as opposed to a tin) Just my two cents.

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by JavaTigress

[MissK.]

I must've weighed in on this before on a different thread but since it's an active discussion again here we go.

 

I'm in the camp of people who think prizes were a mistake, simply because they're a completely separate breed of dragon that can only be gotten by pure luck of the draw. The good thing about DC, especially nowadays with teleports, is that everyone has many different ways to get all the different dragons depending on what they're good at. Some are great hunters and catch CB rares in the cave, some put in the time to hoard more common things to trade for them, some happen to have a friend or even come across a stranger who gifts one to them. With CB prizes you cannot know that you will ever win. This isn't me hating on raffles, I actually think monthly raffles would be great fun - as long as they only gave out dragons that were available in the game in other ways. That way it's a bonus, unexpected and welcome, but you don't have to rely on the raffles to get something you really want. 

 

So I'm greatly in favour of a different way of distributing CB prizes, preferably something that doesn't make it extremely easy (if it's tied to scroll trophies a huge number of people would instantly get a bunch) but still achievable in the long run. Trader's Canyon is a good example of that. Sure, giving out more prizes in the raffles (which has already happened, and I wouldn't be against increasing the numbers more) or making them breed better would help distribute 2nd gens and make their value drop. But CB prizes would still be completely luck-based and, as others have mentioned, I just don't think this is a mechanism that works well in a collecting game. 

 

As an aside - this has been my opinion since I won my first bronze Tin all the way back in the tree decorating contest, and it's the same now that I won again in the December raffle. There was some talk about another "winner" (for lack of a better term) being biased because they didn't support making prizes available in other ways. "Winners" are allowed to have opinions too, and even if we disagree it's not fair to disregard them. I don't agree with the "prizes are prizes and should remain as such" mentality, but it's an opinion some people have, whether they've ever won or not. No need to get snippy.

 

5 hours ago, Process said:

Solution: kill all prizes

 

I suggest turning them all into mints.