Fixing the Current CB Prize System

[olympe]

5 to 8 years... won't work. I googled a little, and found a statement by TJ. According to his resume, DC is "a popular web game with over 40,000 active users and 2 million page views per day". Welcome to the madness.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Wow, wonder how current that data is, but it's a shame we don't have access to that data on the site itself. 40,000 users divided by 720 prizes per year = 55 1/2 years for every currently active user to win a prize. Never mind how unrealistic it is that the site won't grow, if it still exists by then.

[Paradisiske]

19 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Wow, wonder how current that data is, but it's a shame we don't have access to that data on the site itself. 40,000 users divided by 720 prizes per year = 55 1/2 years for every currently active user to win a prize. Never mind how unrealistic it is that the site won't grow, if it still exists by then.

wow that is a large amount. maybe 1000 winners per year would be better

[olympe]

That wouldn't even be 50% more than we have now... Peanuts. 

[LibbyLishly]

3 minutes ago, CellyBean said:

wow that is a large amount. maybe 1000 winners per year would be better

And/or Trader's Canyon being implemented asap.

[tiktokism]

@Dragon_Arbock

 

We started out with 30 prize dragons a year and now release 720. This is 24 times more. We get twice the number of dragons released every month than we did in the first full year. Forum membership is a very poor metric to estimate the userbase as most forum accounts will be inactive, and I very sincerely doubt that the active userbase has grown more than 24-fold since 2010. Your odds are better now than they were, and by a lot. 

 

A lottery is a game or system in which prizes are awarded by random chance. I understand that most people only think of this term in the context of the state-sponsored money lotteries in which people win millions of dollars, (or perhaps the short story by Shirley Jackson, which also features a non-monetary lottery), but that is not strictly what "lottery" means, and your comparison is misguided. The fact that a user can win a lottery more than once is, I understand, disappointing, but random chance is fair, not moral. The exclusion of the prior month's winners from the pool will not make any statistical difference in your likelihood of winning and thus is solely punitive. 

 

You apparently don't read, either. I addressed at length my concerns with in-game currency, which you have not bothered to respond to. Real currency was only briefly addressed because it had appeared previously in conversation and is so odious a concept that it should be discouraged at every opportunity. 

 

Caveborn prize dragons obviously have inherent value - you want one, after all. But the value of second-gen prize dragons is declining and will continue to decline steadily, as availability is constantly and predictably increasing. Supply goes up, demand goes down. This is going to happen without further intervention as the raffle goes on. You've been here for a long time; surely you remember the days when you had to make significant trades or get onto long gifting lists to get any prize dragons at all. Now higher-gen prizes are thick on the ground and worth almost nothing. Plenty of supply, hardly any demand. With a constant influx of new CBs, the same will happen to low-gen prizes. It happens all the time. Be patient and trading will go back to normal. You're obviously already in it for the long game. 

 

The entire economy of the game is based on relative scarcity. CB prize dragons themselves cannot be traded, and the scarcity of second-gens is decreasing, as you desire, every day. If the goal is to devalue second-gen eggs more quickly and make them more trade-accessible/rebalance their relative values, making them easier to breed would potentially be more effective than releasing extra CBs, especially given that many players are collecting descendants of as many CBs as possible. This I would support 100%.

 

@angelicdragonpuppy

 

I largely agree, however, the CB dragons themselves are not part of the trade economy.  I am becoming increasingly convinced that increasing the success rate of second-generation breeding would be far more effective in balancing trade values than releasing more caveborn prizes the more I think about it. Caveborn Prizes have always been something very special and I don't think they should be easy and common, which, ultimately, they would be if they could be earned. Bred dragons are a different story and I would like seeing more realistic trading for them and by extension for other rare dragons. 

 

My issue with a lot of the attitude I've seen here is that some people are absolutely acting like they should, morally, get a CB prize dragon. That it's only fair and/or that they should have the opportunity to earn it. Apart from the ill-conceived tree decorating contest, Prize dragons have always been gifts. Gifts are given at the whim of the giver, not earned and not necessarily deserved. I would absolutely support, again, the implementation of dragon rewards for some of the things suggested here, but I don't think these dragons should be used that way.

 

@Jazeki

 

I was happy to see the monthly raffles implemented well before I ever won anything. I fully expected to never win anything. Before they were implemented there was no raffle at all. *A* chance is better than NO chance, and the chance anyone has in the monthly raffles is better than they had in the holiday raffle, as the number of prizes has been greatly increased. This is 100% a fair system of distribution where anyone can benefit; the problem is that you (general you) would rather have it be a just system of distribution, where you get something because it is deserved. If you cannot conceive of a system that is fair even though it doesn't reward you personally, that's an entitlement problem. (Again, this is all general you, not you specifically!) 

 

I would love to see raffle requirements that took a little more effort from users as well. Didn't TJ say the requirements would change after a few months? Three adult dragons is a very lax requirement and does not guarantee the recipients will be active users, While I don't think Prize dragons should be a reward for efforts, I do think it would be a shame for them to disappear onto an inactive scroll. Like you mentioned, lotteries have entry restrictions - and these ones may be a little more lax than necessary. 

 

Strongly opposed to "earning" something intended as a gift. Even though I would support the ability to earn/buy other dragons, I would not support it for these dragons. 

 

I have seen the trade issues that prizes have caused. I've also watched bred prize values plummet, and I know that it will happen to the second-gens too over time. The CBs can't be traded and I don't think that flooding the site with CBs is the best way to devalue 2nd gens, as I said above. I really see these as two entirely separate issues. If we must devalue 2nd-gens artificially, changing the breeding success rate is worth considering. 

 

@olympe

 

There is absolutely a guarantee that CB rares will be inherently available to you, and that you can get one. You might not personally manage to pick one up for years and years, but they exist in the cave and within the market. There is a world of difference between something that is difficult and something that is literally impossible to get.

 

Normal rares, holidays, alts, hybrids, and summoned dragons have an inbuilt accessibility.  If you are present for a Holiday release, you have reasonable access - the same access as all other players - to those Holiday dragons. If you collect "normal" variations or the correct component breeds, you can breed your own alts and hybrids and summon your GONs. With speed, diligence, and a little luck, you can catch your own rares in the cave. 

 

The dragons won in raffles have always been something you could not get any other way - both the prize dragons themselves and the honorable mentions, where people picked gifts that weren't available anymore or technically impossible within the normal framework. They have always been different. They have always been special.

 

I didn't summon my first GoN until April 2013. They were released in March 2010 and I had been trying since then. I wouldn't call the situations entirely comparable - the odds of summoning a Guardian of Nature have always been far, far higher than the odds of winning the raffle. Even the lowest Summoning odds estimate - 0.5% - was  a 1-in-200 chance every two weeks. If we use the forum membership numbers from Dragon_Arbock as an estimate of raffle participants (I do not think it is a good estimate), the odds of winning a prize dragon in a given month are 0.09% - less than 1-in-1,000. Guardian of Nature odds were such that you could reasonably expect to get one eventually. The odds on the raffle are very good odds compared to a Mega Millions jackpot - still worth playing, especially since it doesn't cost anything - but still not something any given person should expect to win.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jazeki]

29 minutes ago, tiktokism said:

 

@Jazeki

 

I was happy to see the monthly raffles implemented well before I ever won anything. I fully expected to never win anything. Before they were implemented there was no raffle at all. *A* chance is better than NO chance, and the chance anyone has in the monthly raffles is better than they had in the holiday raffle, as the number of prizes has been greatly increased. This is 100% a fair system of distribution where anyone can benefit; the problem is that you (general you) would rather have it be a just system of distribution, where you get something because it is deserved. If you cannot conceive of a system that is fair even though it doesn't reward you personally, that's an entitlement problem. (Again, this is all general you, not you specifically!) 

 

I would love to see raffle requirements that took a little more effort from users as well. Didn't TJ say the requirements would change after a few months? Three adult dragons is a very lax requirement and does not guarantee the recipients will be active users, While I don't think Prize dragons should be a reward for efforts, I do think it would be a shame for them to disappear onto an inactive scroll. Like you mentioned, lotteries have entry restrictions - and these ones may be a little more lax than necessary. 

 

Strongly opposed to "earning" something intended as a gift. Even though I would support the ability to earn/buy other dragons, I would not support it for these dragons. 

 

I have seen the trade issues that prizes have caused. I've also watched bred prize values plummet, and I know that it will happen to the second-gens too over time. The CBs can't be traded and I don't think that flooding the site with CBs is the best way to devalue 2nd gens, as I said above. I really see these as two entirely separate issues. If we must devalue 2nd-gens artificially, changing the breeding success rate is worth considering. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" is enough to support why lotteries are not a good thing, but anyway...

 

There was a raffle before the monthlies. There were several--they just took a very long pause. Like you, I was happy to see them implemented and don't expect to win each month when I enter. However, I also believe that this is a band-aid fix to an ever-looming problem. But it is too late now. I would very much rather have a distribution system than a raffle (whether I feel entitled to a prize, I will not say lol).

 

TJ did mention requirement changes, but I would be in support of requirements that change depending on whether or not you win.

 

And I disagree, these are not gifts. If you win something, it's not a gift. The raffle says "Enter in monthly raffles to win exclusive dragons" and "Each month, perform a given task in order to enter the raffle."  Essentially, you are earning your raffle ticket that gets you your prize dragon. So, I'm having a hard time understanding why it would be okay to earn or buy other dragons, but not these. 

 

I would be in favor of tinkering with the breeding rate for 2nd gens, but I am also in favor of flooding the market. We can't trade sinomorphs or guardians of nature, but there's no worry over whether or not they will lose their value. Why is there a concern over a flood of CB prizes then? 

[HeatherMarie]

@tiktokism Many people would very much disagree that Prizes are 'gifts'. 

 

Quote

gift

ɡift/

noun

1. 1.

   a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present.

   "a Christmas gift"

   synonyms:

   present, handout, donation, offering, bestowal, bonus, award, endowment; More

2. 2.

   a natural ability or talent.

   "he has a gift for comedy"

   synonym:

   talent, flair, aptitude, facility, knack, bent, ability, expertise, capacity, capability, faculty; More

verb

1. 1.

   give (something) as a gift, especially formally or as a donation or bequest.

   "the company gifted 2,999 shares to a charity"

 

Prizes are not 'gifts' according to the actual definition of the word. Winning a lottery, winning something that you have to specifically enter and that has requirements for entering, is *not* the same as a gift at all. Therefore your argument that gifts shouldn't be available any other way is based on a wrong definition.

 

I also very strongly disagree that Prizes would become 'easy and common' if there were other ways to get them. CB Golds are available in the biomes as well as through trading, and they *sure* as heck aren't easy or common to get for the vast majority of users! There are *plenty* of dragons in this game that are available 'normally' in ways other then a completely luck-based raffle, that are *not* easy and common at all. If every dragon not raffle-based was easy and common then there would be no need for anyone to trade for one. 

 

And it's certainly not 'entitlement' that is driving this suggestion, at least not for everyone. The word 'entitlement' means believing that you personally are deserving of special privileges or rights. That's not what this is about at all. This is about wanting *everyone*, not any specific person but *all* users, to have a better chance at getting a CB Prize then the current system. Have you looked at the numbers that people have been throwing out? Do you honestly not understand that it might be more fun, and better for the entire userbase as a whole, to have some way to get Prizes that *doesn't* take 10+ years? The userbase here is HUGE and the relatively tiny amount of CB Prizes given out per year in these monthly raffles won't touch even a *fraction* of those users for a very, very, very long time, very possibly longer then this game will even be around.

 

I do not think it's selfish or greedy or entitled to want a way for everyone to have access to something *within the next decade*.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Marie19R

[Dragon_Arbock]

@tiktokism

It does not matter that there's 24 times more, it was too few then, and it's still too few now. It should be 500 x more. 

Yes, people can win a lottery more than once, but you are not winning something that you cannot get any other way. If I want money in life, I can pursue a career that I know will pay me well (doctor, politician, etc), or I can buy lotto tickets and hope. But one is a something I control, and the other is not. The problem with Tinsels and Shimmers is there is no way that I control that I, or anyone, can get a CB. The raffle can stay, but there needs to be an alternative method. Right now there is not, and it is not an acceptable solution to give only a possible 1.8% of the active userbase access to a Prizes a year- and that's assuming that the website has flat-lined at 40,000 active users, as ADP has said TJ claimed in a resume- it more than likely has increased since then. Do you realize how long it would take every user to win a prize at that rate, even if there are no repeats? 55 1/2 years. It would take 111 years for everyone to win 1 bronze level prize, 167 years for 1 silver, and 334 years for 1 gold. It would take 668 years for everyone to potentially win one of each, and 1336 years to potentially have one of each in both genders. I don't even know how to factor in the odds of no repeat winners, and no repeat prize types.

 

And we are well aware that the value of 2nd gen prizes will fall. This is what we want. 2nd gen golds are not worth nearly what a 2nd gen prize is, and that is a problem. These things are only rare because nobody else can even make them, and that is bad game design. Increasing the rate that they breed would not help anything- the few users that own them are still benefiting way too much from doing so. Someone gave you a money press, for all intents and purposes. It might not have been intended, but that's what prizes are, due to their limited distribution. And even if they bred more, where are the 720 or so users who have won them? Why aren't they here now trading them to us for fairer prices? They don't use the forum. Only a small subset of the userbase uses these forums- which means only a small group will trade with us and thus supply is low still.

Long-lined prizes have lost value because just any old prize dragon isn't rare anymore, but CBs still are, so 2nd gens still are as well. I will also say, the popularity of even gens has gone up between then and now. 3rd gens are still partly valuable, but they are not so much because a majority of them are stairstep lineages. The resources needed to make anything past a 3rd gen even gen checker with Prizes is out of most people's reach right now.

And this game is not a largely economy-driven game. We have 2, maybe 3 rares, if coppers count, and that's all, really. Holidays came back, 2nd gens of them can stop going for an arm and a leg- this is a project and collection based game. If most of us cared about only collecting, we'd have long since lost interest. Many of us have an interest in lineage building. It has nothing to do with rare or not rare, or having any kind of 'value' we want for ourselves, it has to do with wanting the tools to be available to us to make what we want to make. Right now the tools are only for the lucky, and the lucky are asking for more than we have. I want to be able to earn the CBs for the same reason I want holidays unlimited- I do not want to have to depend on anybody else to build my lineages. I already feel bad going up to people and asking them if they would breed a Sweetling or a Solstice for me so I can continue a line. I want to be self-sufficient.

 

And again, saying that this is okay, and that it's fine for only a few people to get them- it's not. It's bad game design. I don't excuse event legends when pokemon does it, I don't excuse the idea of content being in a game but inaccessible to users during normal play- but at least when they do release it, they give it to everyone.

 

[Whirlaway]

In the end, winning a Prize from any raffle is based purely on luck and it has to be accepted that way. And who knows, with patience and some luck, anyone can win!

[Dragon_Arbock]

2 minutes ago, Dorchet said:

In the end, winning a Prize from any raffle is based purely on luck and it has to be accepted that way. And who knows, with patience and some luck, anyone can win!

 

Most 'prizes' you can win in raffles in real life aren't only obtainable from that raffle. This is the problem here.
Never mind the fact that, most of the time you can't take your prize and turn it into something more valuable. Most things can't replicate themselves.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Dragon_Arbock

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, Dorchet said:

In the end, winning a Prize from any raffle is based purely on luck and it has to be accepted that way. And who knows, with patience and some luck, anyone can win!

 

Yeah, DC Prizes are not really comparable to any real-life raffle. What are normal Real Life raffle prizes? Money, gift baskets, maybe a television or entertainment set or somesuch.... Which are all things that can be obtained in other ways completely separate from the raffle. You can buy televisions or entertainment sets yourself. You can make money by working in a million different fields. I can't think of *any* Real Life raffle that offers something that can *only* be had through that raffle, the way that CB Prizes are. There are no alternatives to this raffle. You don't win, you don't get a CB Prize. Ever. No matter what you do. And just because anyone *can* win doesn't mean anyone *will* win. As has been shown through number crunching, with the current monthly raffle numbers it will take a good 10+ years for every current user to obtain one single CB Prize, and that's *if* people didn't win multiple times, which they do, and 10 years is a *very* low estimate.

[Sheriziya]

7 hours ago, Marie19R said:

 

Yeah, DC Prizes are not really comparable to any real-life raffle. What are normal Real Life raffle prizes? Money, gift baskets, maybe a television or entertainment set or somesuch.... Which are all things that can be obtained in other ways completely separate from the raffle. You can buy televisions or entertainment sets yourself. You can make money by working in a million different fields. I can't think of *any* Real Life raffle that offers something that can *only* be had through that raffle, the way that CB Prizes are. There are no alternatives to this raffle. You don't win, you don't get a CB Prize. Ever. No matter what you do. And just because anyone *can* win doesn't mean anyone *will* win. As has been shown through number crunching, with the current monthly raffle numbers it will take a good 10+ years for every current user to obtain one single CB Prize, and that's *if* people didn't win multiple times, which they do, and 10 years is a *very* low estimate.

Well, I can think of a few things, but that's fandom based, like authographed special items, tv/movie props etc. Things that can't be bought, but might be donated. But usually these kind of things are auctioned instead of handed out  as raffle prizes..... (although I have sometimes seen a raffle with small prizes like these).

 

Taking 10 years to obtain 1 CB of each of the Shimmers and Tinsels is a LONG time. I really hope there comes a better system/ratio/number of prizes released in the future.

[Rekha]

On 1/6/2018 at 3:10 PM, tiktokism said:

@Dragon_Arbock

 

We started out with 30 prize dragons a year and now release 720. This is 24 times more. We get twice the number of dragons released every month than we did in the first full year. Forum membership is a very poor metric to estimate the userbase as most forum accounts will be inactive, and I very sincerely doubt that the active userbase has grown more than 24-fold since 2010. Your odds are better now than they were, and by a lot. 

 

A lottery is a game or system in which prizes are awarded by random chance. I understand that most people only think of this term in the context of the state-sponsored money lotteries in which people win millions of dollars, (or perhaps the short story by Shirley Jackson, which also features a non-monetary lottery), but that is not strictly what "lottery" means, and your comparison is misguided. The fact that a user can win a lottery more than once is, I understand, disappointing, but random chance is fair, not moral. The exclusion of the prior month's winners from the pool will not make any statistical difference in your likelihood of winning and thus is solely punitive. 

 

You apparently don't read, either. I addressed at length my concerns with in-game currency, which you have not bothered to respond to. Real currency was only briefly addressed because it had appeared previously in conversation and is so odious a concept that it should be discouraged at every opportunity. 

 

Caveborn prize dragons obviously have inherent value - you want one, after all. But the value of second-gen prize dragons is declining and will continue to decline steadily, as availability is constantly and predictably increasing. Supply goes up, demand goes down. This is going to happen without further intervention as the raffle goes on. You've been here for a long time; surely you remember the days when you had to make significant trades or get onto long gifting lists to get any prize dragons at all. Now higher-gen prizes are thick on the ground and worth almost nothing. Plenty of supply, hardly any demand. With a constant influx of new CBs, the same will happen to low-gen prizes. It happens all the time. Be patient and trading will go back to normal. You're obviously already in it for the long game. 

 

The entire economy of the game is based on relative scarcity. CB prize dragons themselves cannot be traded, and the scarcity of second-gens is decreasing, as you desire, every day. If the goal is to devalue second-gen eggs more quickly and make them more trade-accessible/rebalance their relative values, making them easier to breed would potentially be more effective than releasing extra CBs, especially given that many players are collecting descendants of as many CBs as possible. This I would support 100%.

 

@angelicdragonpuppy

 

I largely agree, however, the CB dragons themselves are not part of the trade economy.  I am becoming increasingly convinced that increasing the success rate of second-generation breeding would be far more effective in balancing trade values than releasing more caveborn prizes the more I think about it. Caveborn Prizes have always been something very special and I don't think they should be easy and common, which, ultimately, they would be if they could be earned. Bred dragons are a different story and I would like seeing more realistic trading for them and by extension for other rare dragons. 

 

My issue with a lot of the attitude I've seen here is that some people are absolutely acting like they should, morally, get a CB prize dragon. That it's only fair and/or that they should have the opportunity to earn it. Apart from the ill-conceived tree decorating contest, Prize dragons have always been gifts. Gifts are given at the whim of the giver, not earned and not necessarily deserved. I would absolutely support, again, the implementation of dragon rewards for some of the things suggested here, but I don't think these dragons should be used that way.

 

@Jazeki

 

I was happy to see the monthly raffles implemented well before I ever won anything. I fully expected to never win anything. Before they were implemented there was no raffle at all. *A* chance is better than NO chance, and the chance anyone has in the monthly raffles is better than they had in the holiday raffle, as the number of prizes has been greatly increased. This is 100% a fair system of distribution where anyone can benefit; the problem is that you (general you) would rather have it be a just system of distribution, where you get something because it is deserved. If you cannot conceive of a system that is fair even though it doesn't reward you personally, that's an entitlement problem. (Again, this is all general you, not you specifically!) 

 

I would love to see raffle requirements that took a little more effort from users as well. Didn't TJ say the requirements would change after a few months? Three adult dragons is a very lax requirement and does not guarantee the recipients will be active users, While I don't think Prize dragons should be a reward for efforts, I do think it would be a shame for them to disappear onto an inactive scroll. Like you mentioned, lotteries have entry restrictions - and these ones may be a little more lax than necessary. 

 

Strongly opposed to "earning" something intended as a gift. Even though I would support the ability to earn/buy other dragons, I would not support it for these dragons. 

 

I have seen the trade issues that prizes have caused. I've also watched bred prize values plummet, and I know that it will happen to the second-gens too over time. The CBs can't be traded and I don't think that flooding the site with CBs is the best way to devalue 2nd gens, as I said above. I really see these as two entirely separate issues. If we must devalue 2nd-gens artificially, changing the breeding success rate is worth considering. 

 

@olympe

 

There is absolutely a guarantee that CB rares will be inherently available to you, and that you can get one. You might not personally manage to pick one up for years and years, but they exist in the cave and within the market. There is a world of difference between something that is difficult and something that is literally impossible to get.

 

Normal rares, holidays, alts, hybrids, and summoned dragons have an inbuilt accessibility.  If you are present for a Holiday release, you have reasonable access - the same access as all other players - to those Holiday dragons. If you collect "normal" variations or the correct component breeds, you can breed your own alts and hybrids and summon your GONs. With speed, diligence, and a little luck, you can catch your own rares in the cave. 

 

The dragons won in raffles have always been something you could not get any other way - both the prize dragons themselves and the honorable mentions, where people picked gifts that weren't available anymore or technically impossible within the normal framework. They have always been different. They have always been special.

 

I didn't summon my first GoN until April 2013. They were released in March 2010 and I had been trying since then. I wouldn't call the situations entirely comparable - the odds of summoning a Guardian of Nature have always been far, far higher than the odds of winning the raffle. Even the lowest Summoning odds estimate - 0.5% - was  a 1-in-200 chance every two weeks. If we use the forum membership numbers from Dragon_Arbock as an estimate of raffle participants (I do not think it is a good estimate), the odds of winning a prize dragon in a given month are 0.09% - less than 1-in-1,000. Guardian of Nature odds were such that you could reasonably expect to get one eventually. The odds on the raffle are very good odds compared to a Mega Millions jackpot - still worth playing, especially since it doesn't cost anything - but still not something any given person should expect to win.

 

 

 

 

 

This is well said and well put. I have to agree with everything that was said. I love the idea of CB Prizes being able to breed better as a way to devalue their offspring! And I am in full acceptance with the fact that prizes should not be obtainable to everyone that it shouldn't be something that everyone deserves its not based on how hard you work to earn it or anything like that its not that kind of prize. 

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Rekha Go try and respond to some of the actual criticisms of their statement rather than just quoting the one who agrees with you. The only arguments I am seeing here is 'I own this special thing and I want it to stay that way'.

[Rekha]

6 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

@Rekha Go try and respond to some of the actual criticisms of their statement rather than just quoting the one who agrees with you. The only arguments I am seeing here is 'I own this special thing and I want it to stay that way'.

I am sorry you see that because that is not the reason my Husband doesn't have a prize and feels the same exact way. I would feel the same exact way if I didn't own a prize. I found someone who had the time to put into words something that I wish I could have said so eloquently because I agreed with them, there was no need for you to be rude to me just because I don't agree with you on this one topic.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Rekha

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Rekha I would much rather here it from you husband himself than having you claim to speak for him. It is not constructive to a conversation to mention people who are not invested enough to come and talk for themselves. It is also not constructive to quote a post that almost everyone here has already taken apart and pointed out all the things wrong with it. It is not rude of me to say that.

You have a bias towards the subject, having owned and used the prize. For you, the system works because you beat the odds and actually won. The system hasn't worked for 99% of the 'active users'. Most lotteries and raffles do not give away exclusives that you can get only via a raffle. The value the dragon has is a falsehood- it is only rare because it is purposely limited- it is not rare in the same way a CB Gold is rare- and it is only natural the the rarity of the offspring should also fall. If you think we want the Prizes because they are rare, that we want the advantage of having them, that is not the case. We want the Prizes because they are a breed of dragon in the game that is needlessly restricted. We have scroll goals, and lineage project goals, and the Prizes are not something right now we can conceivably use with any practicality. Never mind that their presence has a negative impact on trading for anyone who cannot breed and produce a 2nd gen Prize.

[Rekha]

21 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

@Rekha I would much rather here it from you husband himself than having you claim to speak for him. It is not constructive to a conversation to mention people who are not invested enough to come and talk for themselves. It is also not constructive to quote a post that almost everyone here has already taken apart and pointed out all the things wrong with it. It is not rude of me to say that.

You have a bias towards the subject, having owned and used the prize. For you, the system works because you beat the odds and actually won. The system hasn't worked for 99% of the 'active users'. Most lotteries and raffles do not give away exclusives that you can get only via a raffle. The value the dragon has is a falsehood- it is only rare because it is purposely limited- it is not rare in the same way a CB Gold is rare- and it is only natural the the rarity of the offspring should also fall. If you think we want the Prizes because they are rare, that we want the advantage of having them, that is not the case. We want the Prizes because they are a breed of dragon in the game that is needlessly restricted. We have scroll goals, and lineage project goals, and the Prizes are not something right now we can conceivably use with any practicality. Never mind that their presence has a negative impact on trading for anyone who cannot breed and produce a 2nd gen Prize.

At this point of the conversation I have said across I believe two or three different threads all talking about the same exact thing my peace in a midst of a variety of posts. People can say what they want to say either for or against, there is no need to get angry with anyone. The way you worded things was precieved as rude and I even asked a few others before I responded as I wanted to see if I was just taking it that way. So at this point I will simply say that I don't feel everyone should be able to have a CB Prize, its never been meant to be that way and it never should be that way. I sadly disagree with a large portion of the population here it seems and it may make me out to be the bad guy but really I am just one other person with an opinion, not wrong, not right, simply an opinion. I would hate to see everyone get a CB Prize. I would love to see more prizes being given out or some other way but I don't feel that everyone should have one. I at this point simply agree to disagree with most people here and that should be fine and left at that. I am bowing out of this conversation at this point because right now its just beating around the same bush. No matter what I say its already been said and no matter what you say its already been said. I am sorry. I truly understand how people feel here but it doesn't mean I need to change how I feel about this situation. I wish everyone luck in getting CB Prizes, I plan to continue to breed my prize for both trade and gifts and I think it would be really awesome if they were able to breed more making the 2nd gens easier to get and thus less valuable. I am sorry if people have scroll goals that are simply unobtainable unless they get a CB Prize. I never would have ever thought to have a scroll goal dealing with a CB prize and am perfectly okay with never being able to obtain another one to be able to match any goals that I might think are pretty and fun to work toward. Blah now I am rambling.

 

TLDR

Sorry you feel this way, I am okay with the system being made so that a higher percentage of the population can get it but I am still not okay with everyone being able to get them. At this point TJ has seen our concerns and can make up his own mind, so lets just agree to disagree.

 

Edit: I hope to never ever be seen in a way like The Dragoness has commented about with those winners. Yes I intend to try and trade with some of my offspring to try and obtain scroll goals that I may never have been able to do before. But I am also gifting because that's what I do with most of my dragons.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Rekha
To respond to The Dragoness who posted while I was posting. Still bowing out, I'll be reading but no longer commenting. Good luck everyone!@

[The Dragoness]

I don't think CB Prizes should be considered gifts. The alt Sweetlings were gifts. If CB Prizes are gifts, why don't we all have them? Are the rest of us not good enough? No, it's a completely luck-based system. Some will have 10 before others have 1.

 

My main issue with CB Prizes is the sense of elitism they've created. Some (not all) CB Prize owners have reasoned that by bringing raffles back, they can't trade 2Gs for such valuable things. That the rest of us weren't there or weren't lucky enough, so we shouldn't get to have those dragons. I can't even begin to describe how disgusting and unfair that attitude is. And then, on the other hand, we have non-winners refusing to interact with winners based on the assumption that they must all be rude people, which isn't true. It's sad to see players talking new winners down because they'll "eventually be just like the rest."  Even the Raffle Discussion thread, where winners used to be able to share their excitement, is kind of hard to read through. Both sides have created so much drama over these dragons.

 

No one deserves to win. No one deserves to not win. Winning doesn't make anyone a better person.

 

I have 13 2G Prizes and a handful of IOUs for more. That's more than most people have. Some might have 100, but I still consider myself fairly lucky trade-wise, even if I don't ever win a CB Prize. All I want to see is balance in the distribution of Prizes. I'm happy to see people winning, but I would rather see the CB Prizeless person who's been playing since 2008 win than the player who has already won. If that means increasing the CB Prize pool, I'm all for it. Making the requirements more difficult? Great. Whatever it takes.

 

Edit to say I agree with @Rekha about everyone not needing a CB Prize. If it were that way, we would have even more problems, like the trade market being biased towards Neglecteds (example). But I do think more people should have them.

Edited January 8, 2018 by The Dragoness

[Whirlaway]

The Prize dragon was never intended to be for everyone. It was a lucky group of people who won it in the first few years they existed. I do not understand the sentiment of 'everyone deserves a Prize'. No one deserves anything on DC, we haven't done anything worthy of 'deserving' a certain type of dragon. It is pure luck, and that is it.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Dorchet

[Paradisiske]

1 minute ago, Dorchet said:

The Prize dragon was never intended to be for everyone. It was a lucky group of people who won it in the first few years they existed. I do not understand the sentiment of 'everyone deserves a Prize'. No one deserves anything on DC, we haven't done anything. It is pure luck, and that is it.

100% agree.

 

and again no one should be blocked from the raffle because they won it before

[Feesh]

For those who don't have CB prizes, it's still possible to trade for 2nd gens. Some prize owners accept full zyu/xeno sets, etc. You just have to search around. There's always ND making too, which isn't hard. There are resources out there. 

[LibbyLishly]

Eh, I wouldn't argue that everyone DESERVES a Prize, but I don't think anyone DOESN'T deserve a Prize or at least the chance to earn one (except for cheating cheaters who cheat, of course). I do think the exclusivity does more harm than good. I don't really care if they were meant to be one thing or another at their inception; what matters to me is what they should become.

 

Again, I'll be fine if I never win one. The fact that there is now a monthly raffle is a HUGE improvement over the old annual raffle. The numbers that have recently been shown bother me, though, and it seems to me that we have a bigger problem here than I originally thought. As such, I do think a more ideal system, in the form of Trader's Canyon, should be pursued.

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Rekha If there had been other limited dragons from the start of this game- if Prizes were not the first- you might have a point, but as it stands, there was nothing in the game like the Prizes, and the Prizes have changed the game in a way many of us do not like. Before the Prizes, every dragon was obtainable by everyone in CB form. The holidays were available to everyone who was around for them at release- and since then, they have been rereleased, as they and their offspring never were meant to become valuable.

The Prizes are a nasty outlier that excludes many people. Just because the raffles have returned, it means very little for my, or anyone else's chances of ever getting one- let alone all 6 of them. I could win a prize, but I've got a better chance of dying in a horrible accident. Just because I have a chance to, does not mean I will, and does not make the system work. I may very well never get one. It would be much better from a gameplay perspective to allow users to earn them. Even if I could afford to trade for all the 2nd gens I would ever need, I still don't get to own the dragon in its purest form. I can't make a lineage of all my dragons, with all my names, and make all my own choices. I am at the mercy of others. I have already seen people kill dragons and ruin lineages, and having to depend on others not to disrupt my gameplay is not something reliable.

The biggest issue with the Prizes is simply equality. If you have a prize, you can trade for anything. Even if you believe the raffles themselves are fair, or users having dragons others cannot is fair, having more trading power than another just be given to you is not fair in the slightest. Prizes have ruined the trading ever since their release, and continue to do so. Even with 720 or so being given out a year, most of those users do not use the forum, and prices are still high. And no, I do not want prizes to produce more prize offspring than they do now- that only gives more advantage to their owners. I would love to have a dragon that I could breed and get 8 CB golds and 5 Negleteds and everything under the sun with no effort. It's simply overpowered and way above what the rest of us can do. It's even worse when prize owners only ask for prizeswaps- that cuts out the rest of us entirely.

There are only two ways I see to fix this- remove Prize dragons entirely, or allow everyone to earn them fairly. No random chance. They are not gifts, they overpowered exclusives.

 

@Dorchet This is a game- it is bad game design to make something only a few users can ever have, and then on top of that, make it breedable, so a small group of users has more power than everyone else.

[DuskOfTheStars]

Uh, just so everyone knows, Bright Pinks, Frills and all Holidays released before Prize raffles came about were retired before the Prizes were introduced. Granted, most of these have been unretired (exceptions being Valentines and true CB Vamps with no bite ancestry, currently).

 

Also as a ND maker I will mention it's a pain to find a prize owner who wants a ND, least in my experience - you're better off with wishlists.

 

/ducks out