Fixing the Current CB Prize System

[The Dragoness]

33 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I think the numbers between the two are equally tiny, with effects on chances for others. Said chances at winning would still be miniscule without either of those happening.

That's true.

 

If TJ were to increase the number of CB Prizes handed out each month, what would be a fair amount? Should there still be fewer Golds than Bronzes? Releasing an equal number of each type might make completing lineages easier (especially those with Gold variants).

[olympe]

It's really hard to tell what would be a good amount of prizes to hand out with the raffle each month. Because it depends on way too many variables. Personally, I think there are three very different approaches to go about fixing the prize system:

1. Increase the number of Prizes given out.
   • Pro: Doesn't need major changes to the status quo, and "Prizes" stay "Prizes". 
   • Con: Still makes an RNG the sole thing deciding on CB Prize owners, meaning nobody has a guarantee to ever win one in the course of 100 years. Jealousy will still be a factor and probably cause more drama.
2. Hand out Prizes via the market.
   • Pro: Everyone has the choice to save up for their prize of choice with a guarantee that, eventually, they will be able to obtain one. I think this is the most likely version to deal with the negative feelings associated with the Prize Dragon issue, because everyone will eventually be able to buy one. Plus, their breeding will stay the same as that of raffle prizes (biome: Cave).
   • Con: Prizes will have prices - which need to be determined. "Prize" Dragons might have to be renamed to their respective breed names, as they're not solely prizes any more. (Shimmerscales already have their name in their description, but Tinsels do no.)
3. Drop Prizes in the biomes.
   • Pro: Better availability overall.
   • Con: Prizes would go to the same people as Golds and Silvers, basically. Unless Prizes are a mass-drop on certain days. Prizes will have a biome assigned, which might mess with copper breeding. This also might encourage scripting...

[osmarks]

I'm not sure that encouraging automatic egg-getting more is very likely, given that the entire cave system is practically geared towards that sort of thing, unfortunately.

[Fiona]

@Amazon_warrior Yeah, I don't want specifics, and it wouldn't be appropriate for the thread. I wasn't assuming you'd shared all the available info, just commenting on the suspicious nature of what you did say and that by itself it wasn't proof but enough to cause questions.

[Amazon_warrior]

8 minutes ago, Fiona said:

@Amazon_warrior Yeah, I don't want specifics, and it wouldn't be appropriate for the thread. I wasn't assuming you'd shared all the available info, just commenting on the suspicious nature of what you did say and that by itself it wasn't proof but enough to cause questions.

 

Yeah, no worries.    It's been reported anyway, so it's in the hands of the mods and TJ now - if they find nothing of concern, then... so be it!

[Fiona]

There was a suggestion in the "Prizes in the Market" thread that I actually liked very well that would add a line to Olympe's break down above, and that was regularly retiring raffle dragons to the market, and replacing them with new raffle dragons. It shouldn't be a frequent thing, but say every three or four years or so a new CB Prize is introduced and the current Prize is "demoted" to "save up shards and buy it" status in the market. Prices could then be relatively low, say 4 to 6 months worth of shards. And though the offspring of the new prize would be the new craze for awhile I think it would be mitigated by the knowledge that you'll get a CB eventually through the market if you aren't lucky enough to win one.

[osmarks]

I like that lots, though possibly with a shorter interval than a few years.

[Fishkeeper]

What if, A, more prizes were available per raffle, and, B, you can get multiple tickets? Raise 3 dragons for one ticket, 6 for two tickets, and so on, to maybe 3 tickets? 

[Soulsborne]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

1. Increase the number of Prizes given out.
2. Hand out Prizes via the market.
3. Drop Prizes in the biomes.

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Please, no. Most people here have so much trouble catching things like CB metals as it is - so, as you said, those prizes would only go to the lucky few who can already catch those or individuals who have some sort of bot or script or whatever it is called. (Slow internet shouldn't be a determinant for who will get prizes.. then we would have the next big drama with lots of threads - at least raffle and market are somewhat "fair") And a mass dropping event seems kinda off to me personally, can't really explain why.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Soulsborne

[Pilauli]

Most people who bother entering the raffle at all will be willing to put in a little extra work anyway.  The odds for each person would be just as low as they would otherwise.

 

I could envision a sort of bingo-ish thing, where each fulfilled objective is worth one ticket, like "raise 3 adult dragons", "hatch 20 non-CB dragons", "breed 5 pairs of drakes", and so on.  That would allow people who just do their own thing to get a couple of tickets, while the people focused on winning prizes could go the extra mile for a better shot.  This would also encourage diversification each month, unlike the "3 wyrms" thing, when those suddenly because go-to trading fodder.

 

Definitely, I vote for more prizes.  The prize-cycling idea sounds interesting, too.

 

Edit because I just got a chance to read Soulsborne's post (you wouldn't think you could be a sneaky ninja with a Plated Colossus for an avatar, but they manage it):

I agree about mass dropping seeming kind of off.  "Here, everyone who happened to be online today gets a shiny dragon that's supposed to be special.  If you weren't, and you may have not even known about the event, you're completely out of luck."  It just seems to simultaneously taunt people and cheapen prizes.

 

Another thing that might be cool would be if prizes could be given out for various other things, as well as raffles.  For example, another holiday decoration game, with user rating determining the number of tickets in a holiday raffle.  Or perhaps have a weekly raffle, with number of shards (including ones that you didn't get because of the 100-shard max) influencing how many tickets you get.

 

Of course, these ideas for other raffles would be in addition to the current raffles, so the number of prize dragons given out would increase.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Pilauli

[KrazyKarp]

1 hour ago, olympe said:

• Increase the number of Prizes given out.
  • Pro: Doesn't need major changes to the status quo, and "Prizes" stay "Prizes". 
  • Con: Still makes an RNG the sole thing deciding on CB Prize owners, meaning nobody has a guarantee to ever win one in the course of 100 years. Jealousy will still be a factor and probably cause more drama.
• Hand out Prizes via the market.
  • Pro: Everyone has the choice to save up for their prize of choice with a guarantee that, eventually, they will be able to obtain one. I think this is the most likely version to deal with the negative feelings associated with the Prize Dragon issue, because everyone will eventually be able to buy one. Plus, their breeding will stay the same as that of raffle prizes (biome: Cave).
  • Con: Prizes will have prices - which need to be determined. "Prize" Dragons might have to be renamed to their respective breed names, as they're not solely prizes any more. (Shimmerscales already have their name in their description, but Tinsels do no.)
• Drop Prizes in the biomes.
  • Pro: Better availability overall.
  • Con: Prizes would go to the same people as Golds and Silvers, basically. Unless Prizes are a mass-drop on certain days. Prizes will have a biome assigned, which might mess with copper breeding. This also might encourage scripting...

I was thinking about a combination of all three so I'll go ahead and throw this out there:

 

I would like to see Shimmerscales in the biomes. I've had many discussions with people, but none on a pulbic forum thread, so I've no idea what the forum will think. But from the discussions I've had with people it seems unanimous that Shimmerscales aren't very... prize-like. Judging from their descriptions, they clearly exist out there in the biomes, and overall just seem more "normal" compared to Tinsels. Which is probably because Shimmerscales were originally intended for regular release. Whereas with Tinsels, they were originally intended to be actual Prize dragons, which I find apparent in their sprites and lack of descriptions. I think it's best to have both as what they were originally intended for; Shimmerscales in the biomes, Tinsels in the raffle. The only difference, of course, is that Jewel was the original sprite to be released, but obviously we aren't going to take away a spriter's alt like that!

 

With Tinsels, I feel they should be kept in the raffle and put into the market. The raffle should have the amount of winners increased, of course. If, in the event that TJ would decide not to put them in the market, then the increase in winners should reflect that by being a rather large number. Since I've no idea the size of the active DC userbase I've no idea what the specific numbers would be.

[Ruby Eyes]

1 hour ago, Fiona said:

There was a suggestion in the "Prizes in the Market" thread that I actually liked very well that would add a line to Olympe's break down above, and that was regularly retiring raffle dragons to the market, and replacing them with new raffle dragons. It shouldn't be a frequent thing, but say every three or four years or so a new CB Prize is introduced and the current Prize is "demoted" to "save up shards and buy it" status in the market. Prices could then be relatively low, say 4 to 6 months worth of shards. And though the offspring of the new prize would be the new craze for awhile I think it would be mitigated by the knowledge that you'll get a CB eventually through the market if you aren't lucky enough to win one.

I would love this. It would also be another way to release some additional breeds every now and then.

[HeatherMarie]

I'd be all for 'retiring' Prizes to the Market after a couple years, and having new types in the raffle when that happens. That still keeps the 'rarity' and 'PRIZE' nature for multiple years (and if their Market price is reasonably high the rarity won't really be an issue then either) but gives people an actual way to eventually get one if they never win a raffle ever. 

 

I'd go for any of olympe's listed ideas, too... I very much doubt them dropping in the biomes would ever happen, that seems the least likely out of everything, but I have nothing against the idea. I personally really, *really* want CB 'Prizes' to be available some other way then just random luck, so simply raising the number of raffle winners each month isn't my favorite idea, but at least it'd be better then what we have now. 

 

One thing I don't want is introducing biases geared towards more active or longer-term players. I don't want some people to be able to earn more raffle tickets by 'grinding' while others simply don't have the option of playing that much. I don't want people with higher trophies or more total dragons or whatever to get any sort of advantage here. As much as I dislike the raffle, it's not biased. I would really hate to see Prizes go from 'very tiny but completely equal chance' to 'small group of people have a much better chance and everyone else is screwed'. (If there is a very low cap on how many 'extra' tickets you can get, those biases wouldn't be as severe, but then we run into the issue of those 'extra' tickets not actually meaning anything at all since 99% of people entering will probably easily get those extra tickets.)

[relaks]

38 minutes ago, KrazyKarp said:

But from the discussions I've had with people it seems unanimous that Shimmerscales aren't very... prize-like.

Where was the poll to say it is unanimous? Because I definitely don't agree. 

 

I actually don't like tinsels that much, personally. I much prefer Shimmerscale and find their overall design distinguished, so to me they actually feel more prize-like. But that's not the issue at stake in this thread I guess. I just feel that putting one in the biomes and not the other is NOT a good idea. For the people who won Shimmers on the raffle it would be like telling them: "hey, that dragon you felt was so special? yeah, not so much, bye, lol". After so many months/years of waiting for some of them? Definitely not cool. 

[olympe]

1 hour ago, Fiona said:

There was a suggestion in the "Prizes in the Market" thread that I actually liked very well that would add a line to Olympe's break down above, and that was regularly retiring raffle dragons to the market, and replacing them with new raffle dragons. It shouldn't be a frequent thing, but say every three or four years or so a new CB Prize is introduced and the current Prize is "demoted" to "save up shards and buy it" status in the market. Prices could then be relatively low, say 4 to 6 months worth of shards. And though the offspring of the new prize would be the new craze for awhile I think it would be mitigated by the knowledge that you'll get a CB eventually through the market if you aren't lucky enough to win one.

I really, really like that idea. What if...

• ... every other year, we'd get one kind of prize dragon. (Arbitrary, but since Tinsels and Shimmerscales were releases 2 years apart, I thought I'd go with that.)
• ... we'd always have two kinds of Prizes in the Raffle.
• ... Prizes retired from the raffle became available in the Market. 

Sounds good to me, as it keeps the still newer Prize breeds "special" aka practically unobtainable, while allowing everyone to save up for getting them later on.

1 hour ago, Soulsborne said:

[Re: Drop Prizes in the Biomes] Please, no. Most people here have so much trouble catching things like CB metals as it is - so, as you said, those prizes would only go to the lucky few who can already catch those or individuals who have some sort of bot or script or whatever it is called. (Slow internet shouldn't be a determinant for who will get prizes.. then we would have the next big drama with lots of threads - at least raffle and market are somewhat "fair") And a mass dropping event seems kinda off to me personally, can't really explain why.

I don't like the idea, either. Not really. I just wanted to list it as an option.

 

1 hour ago, Pilauli said:

I could envision a sort of bingo-ish thing, where each fulfilled objective is worth one ticket, like "raise 3 adult dragons", "hatch 20 non-CB dragons", "breed 5 pairs of drakes", and so on.  That would allow people who just do their own thing to get a couple of tickets, while the people focused on winning prizes could go the extra mile for a better shot.  This would also encourage diversification each month, unlike the "3 wyrms" thing, when those suddenly because go-to trading fodder.

While that might seem like a good idea, it still doesn't address the underlying problem of Prizes being too rare.

 

1 hour ago, Pilauli said:

Edit because I just got a chance to read Soulsborne's post (you wouldn't think you could be a sneaky ninja with a Plated Colossus for an avatar, but they manage it):

I agree about mass dropping seeming kind of off.  "Here, everyone who happened to be online today gets a shiny dragon that's supposed to be special.  If you weren't, and you may have not even known about the event, you're completely out of luck."  It just seems to simultaneously taunt people and cheapen prizes.

Not if it was an annual event...

 

1 hour ago, Pilauli said:

Another thing that might be cool would be if prizes could be given out for various other things, as well as raffles.  For example, another holiday decoration game, with user rating determining the number of tickets in a holiday raffle.  Or perhaps have a weekly raffle, with number of shards (including ones that you didn't get because of the 100-shard max) influencing how many tickets you get.

That would be just another raffle... And, no matter how many tickets you manage to get, it'll still be a horrid game of chance that 99% and more won't win at anyway. It'd be just a stopgap measure at best and cause for lots of drama at worst. (Knowing the community here, the latter is about as likely as not winning anything in the raffle...)

 

55 minutes ago, KrazyKarp said:

I would like to see Shimmerscales in the biomes. I've had many discussions with people, but none on a pulbic forum thread, so I've no idea what the forum will think. But from the discussions I've had with people it seems unanimous that Shimmerscales aren't very... prize-like. Judging from their descriptions, they clearly exist out there in the biomes, and overall just seem more "normal" compared to Tinsels. Which is probably because Shimmerscales were originally intended for regular release. Whereas with Tinsels, they were originally intended to be actual Prize dragons, which I find apparent in their sprites and lack of descriptions. I think it's best to have both as what they were originally intended for; Shimmerscales in the biomes, Tinsels in the raffle. The only difference, of course, is that Jewel was the original sprite to be released, but obviously we aren't going to take away a spriter's alt like that!

 

With Tinsels, I feel they should be kept in the raffle and put into the market. The raffle should have the amount of winners increased, of course. If, in the event that TJ would decide not to put them in the market, then the increase in winners should reflect that by being a rather large number. Since I've no idea the size of the active DC userbase I've no idea what the specific numbers would be.

First of all, I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Shimmerscales aren't very prize-like. Their spritework is amazing, they're both shiny and sparkly and quite regal and detailed - what about that is not prize-like? The fact that they don't bear a laurel crown?

 

Treating both Prize breeds so drastically differently seems inherently wrong to me. Also, with the same logic, Lunar Heralds should be put in the raffles from now on because they were originally conceived as a new Prize breed, with the indigo intended as the spriter's alt...

 

No, just no. *off to snuggle my Loonies*

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by olympe

[Guillotine]

The retiring to Store idea is essentially as close as any Prize will get to being released into the biomes, since iirc back when it was first suggested years ago there was a lot of pushback against it. I like the idea, personally, but it would need to be combined with the store prizes being at 4-6 months of saving (which would still be like 12-18 months for one sprite set from a single breed, mind!) and the raffle distributing more of the new breed than it currently distributes of the current breeds or we'd have the same issue of a single breed dominating the market again.

[olympe]

Personally, I wouldn't mind it as much if I knew that all I'd have to do is wait... *shrugs* 

[osean]

30 minutes ago, Guillotine said:

The retiring to Store idea is essentially as close as any Prize will get to being released into the biomes, since iirc back when it was first suggested years ago there was a lot of pushback against it. I like the idea, personally, but it would need to be combined with the store prizes being at 4-6 months of saving (which would still be like 12-18 months for one sprite set from a single breed, mind!) and the raffle distributing more of the new breed than it currently distributes of the current breeds or we'd have the same issue of a single breed dominating the market again.

I would be ok with this as it would be a happy medium and a good overall compromise. 

[KrazyKarp]

52 minutes ago, relaks said:

Where was the poll to say it is unanimous? Because I definitely don't agree. 

 

I actually don't like tinsels that much, personally. I much prefer Shimmerscale and find their overall design distinguished, so to me they actually feel more prize-like. But that's not the issue at stake in this thread I guess. I just feel that putting one in the biomes and not the other is NOT a good idea. For the people who won Shimmers on the raffle it would be like telling them: "hey, that dragon you felt was so special? yeah, not so much, bye, lol". After so many months/years of waiting for some of them? Definitely not cool. 

44 minutes ago, olympe said:

First of all, I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Shimmerscales aren't very prize-like. Their spritework is amazing, they're both shiny and sparkly and quite regal and detailed - what about that is not prize-like? The fact that they don't bear a laurel crown?

 

Treating both Prize breeds so drastically differently seems inherently wrong to me. Also, with the same logic, Lunar Heralds should be put in the raffles from now on because they were originally conceived as a new Prize breed, with the indigo intended as the spriter's alt...

I didn't say there was a poll. It's just simply been discussions I've had with friends, as I said before there was nothing discussed on the public forums, so I had no idea what general opinion here would be. That's one reason why I'm throwing this idea out there, is to see how people view each of the Prizes. Also, can we please drop the idea that we HAVE to retain ALL the speacialness of Prizes? We really don't. Hollies were super special for a long time. Look at all those HM Hollies. Bam, holiday biome, male HM Hollies aren't special, save for custom codes.

I'm not looking at sprites. I really like the sprites for both Prize dragons, I never once referred to their sprites in my post. I'm talking about concept, descriptions, lore. It definitely seems like Shimmerscales are out there in Galsreim. So then obviously they should be found in the biomes. The Tinsels have no writing or descriptions so they're much more flexible. Keep in mind that they're put under the collective term of "Prizes", but they're completely different breeds than can very well be given completely different ways of obtaining.

I concede to the Lunar Herald example, though. I did overlook that, sorry!

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, relaks said:

Where was the poll to say it is unanimous? Because I definitely don't agree. 

 

I actually don't like tinsels that much, personally. I much prefer Shimmerscale and find their overall design distinguished, so to me they actually feel more prize-like. But that's not the issue at stake in this thread I guess. I just feel that putting one in the biomes and not the other is NOT a good idea. For the people who won Shimmers on the raffle it would be like telling them: "hey, that dragon you felt was so special? yeah, not so much, bye, lol". After so many months/years of waiting for some of them? Definitely not cool. 

 I totally agree. The prize I want most is a CB silver shimmer.

21 minutes ago, olympe said:

Personally, I wouldn't mind it as much if I knew that all I'd have to do is wait... *shrugs* 

Exactly this. I like Fiona's idea too. But not more raffles; more prizes in each would help a little. And not in the biomes, because of scripters and disadvantaging those with slower internet.

[Pilauli]

Um, @olympe?

2 hours ago, Pilauli said:

Of course, these ideas for other raffles would be in addition to the current raffles, so the number of prize dragons given out would increase.

It would (at least in my opinion) be more interesting to have more kinds of raffles, rather than more winners per raffles.

 

A mass-release, timed annually, makes them a lot like holiday dragons.  Okay, I'll admit that they can still breed off-season, but it still sounds unappealing to me.  I can't speak for everyone else as regards this idea.  If this is going to happen, can we please, please get distinct egg descriptions for all the variants?  "This metallic bronze egg has a pearly sheen", etc.

 

Here's something else that might help, albeit potentially tricky to code.  What if lower-gen prizes produced prize offspring more often than high-gen prizes?  There'd be (compared to now) less undesirable high-gen prizes and more of those "2G prizes that everyone wants but can't trade CB golds for".  It might even get to the point that the prices could be driven down a little bit.

[NazDrag]

I honestly think weighing people who do not own any CB prize higher vs someone who does is fine. Even if I owned a prize, I'd still have a chance. That's fine by me. I never expect to win anyways... it's only been how many years and nada? Ah well. The weight difference would be up to TJ ultimately. But either way is fine.. weight.. no weight... I don't think the system is bad right now at all.

 

 

Keep the prizes rare, though. No shop or anything for em. Prizes are prizes. Always viewed em as such, and 200% expect to never have one CB. Such is life.

[animatedrose]

I'd be fine with maybe putting them into the Market, but that does clash with the Market-cannot-replace-biomes mentality that the Market was made for. The Market was made for those that just don't have a chance in heck of catching some dragons, where others may have all the luck in the world. It'd be really weird to suddenly put in a dragon that cannot be found in the biomes, period. This ultimately falls on TJ to decide but he's already struck it down as is, so...

 

I'm also not a fan of the idea of putting them in the biomes. It'd be CB metals all over again, where only the 1% and their friends would be able to get them easily while the rest of the user base has to sell an arm and a leg for them. So yeah, no. Please nothing like that. You say the raffle is unfair, so how would this be any less unfair?

 

I don't really have any ideas for a solution. Yeah, the raffle kinda sucks with its odds...but at least it's fair. Nobody can throw themselves an odds boost by being "the most active" or "the oldest" or whatever people come up with to make themselves better than anyone else. Everyone has an equal chance. I'd just be happier if the number of prizes given out was increased. But as is...I think it's mostly fine. RNG is a pain but at least you can't chuck something at it to heighten your odds of winning.

[olympe]

36 minutes ago, Pilauli said:

Um, @olympe?

It would (at least in my opinion) be more interesting to have more kinds of raffles, rather than more winners per raffles.

 

A mass-release, timed annually, makes them a lot like holiday dragons.  Okay, I'll admit that they can still breed off-season, but it still sounds unappealing to me.  I can't speak for everyone else as regards this idea.  If this is going to happen, can we please, please get distinct egg descriptions for all the variants?  "This metallic bronze egg has a pearly sheen", etc.

 

Here's something else that might help, albeit potentially tricky to code.  What if lower-gen prizes produced prize offspring more often than high-gen prizes?  There'd be (compared to now) less undesirable high-gen prizes and more of those "2G prizes that everyone wants but can't trade CB golds for".  It might even get to the point that the prices could be driven down a little bit.

Raffles are still raffles. And the more different raffles there are, the more repeat winners there are. 

Not distinguishing the egg descriptions would probably be important to keep the ratios working - and the eggs taken out of the biomes. Plus, at the rate they'd be going, it would probably be impossible to distinguish egg descriptions if you wanted to get any without cheating.

 

The idea to make higher-gen prizes harder to breed has come up before, and been shot down because DC has never given any benefits or penalties to any kind of lineage - be it short and clean or long and inbred or anything in between.

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, Pilauli said:

Um, @olympe?

It would (at least in my opinion) be more interesting to have more kinds of raffles, rather than more winners per raffles.

 

A mass-release, timed annually, makes them a lot like holiday dragons.  Okay, I'll admit that they can still breed off-season, but it still sounds unappealing to me.  I can't speak for everyone else as regards this idea.  If this is going to happen, can we please, please get distinct egg descriptions for all the variants?  "This metallic bronze egg has a pearly sheen", etc.

 

Here's something else that might help, albeit potentially tricky to code.  What if lower-gen prizes produced prize offspring more often than high-gen prizes?  There'd be (compared to now) less undesirable high-gen prizes and more of those "2G prizes that everyone wants but can't trade CB golds for".  It might even get to the point that the prices could be driven down a little bit.

 

More kinds of raffles would just make the current frustration even worse, imo. Part of the current frustration is that getting a CB Prize is completely random, there is nothing you can do to work towards getting one, save up to getting one, hunt for one, influence the outcome at all. Adding *more* completely random raffles that no one has any control over is just compounding that issue. Sure, technically more Prizes would be given out, but that doesn't mean more *people* would be winning, in any significant number. 

 

As for that last idea.... No way. No no no no no. One of the best things about DC is that it doesn't give priority or bias to *any* type of lineage. Lineages being valuable or not is completely user-driven and I would hate to see that changed so drastically. Also, because it's user-driven, there will never ever be a consensus on what constitutes 'low-gen' or 'high-gen'. What about 3rd-gens, 4th-gens, are they low-gen or is it *just* 2nd-gens? Also-also, some of us *like* collecting longer lineages, which that idea would completely discriminate against and make playing the game in general much more difficult and frustrating for us.