Snow Angel Breed

[Jazeki]

While I was present for the angel wing debacle and was a bit sad that I did not get tri-wing or white-winged at the time, I really like my gold winged snow angel and I'm happy that her wings are gold now. I would not mind being able to influence new CBs  or bred angels to be a certain color, but I don't think that this should be forced onto existing adults. I don't collect snow angels much, but I think this would be very helpful  for people who want to continue certain color lines. Of course, I won't be upset that it doesn't happen, but it would be interesting to obtain other variants for the sake of completion. 

 

Also, I don't understand how the idea that snow angels are unpopular and need a sprite update was brought up. Sure, they're a bit frustrating in their color assignment, but they're also an old breed, so there are fewer CB ones to be bred. Their feet are a little off, but I think they're fine as far as anatomy goes otherwise.  I've also dealt with new players who were pretty excited to learn that their snow angel colors were going to be a surprise. 

 

And the issue with variants for these babes had nothing to do with the spriters (outside of them saying "yay, variants--go for it"). The main problem was that users were able to figure out how to get certain wing colors, exploited it, and then caused everyone else to have to deal with the consequences. I'd say these are tame in comparison to other things. 

[Dragon_Arbock]

I'm saying I like the sprite. It' much better than the Holly even after it's attempted revamp. I would not be keen on hoarding Hollies just as I don't hoard SAs, but for different reasons. But my issue still remains.
Assuming new CBs are released, I will pick some up in hopes of being able to create lines myself with my color.. but even so, I pretty much can't pick up any SAs with lines made with the other wings, cause I can't continue them. That's why I currently have so few. Why should I take them just to ruin them? They are ruined just as when a nebula miscolors, but whereas with nebulas you can try again, SAs will always miscolor.

[TJ09]

So if I remember correctly, the snow angel behavior was my idea (8 years ago). There were several variants proposed, and I basically said, "why not all?" I still think the idea of scroll-related dragons is pretty cool, but it's also really obvious that it's not good for DC in practice (i.e locking people out of sprites is bad, also on a breed that's already pretty limited). Most things on the site have already been moving in a direction where things that were previously limited or impossible to get (past Haloween CBs, Frills/Arias) are becoming available again.

 

I think it's possible to reconcile these two things. Perhaps (and I'm throwing this out as an idea even though I know it's going to stay around forever as "T.J. seemed okay with X back in 2017, when is it finally going to happen?") It'd be relatively easy to allow the eggs to breed true, such that the CBs stay tied to a given account, but it's then possible to get all of the sprites.

 

Or, the eggs that each person gets are still consistent per scroll, but rotate every year.

 

There's definitely options. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[LibbyLishly]

1 minute ago, TJ09 said:

So if I remember correctly, the snow angel behavior was my idea (8 years ago). There were several variants proposed, and I basically said, "why not all?" I still think the idea of scroll-related dragons is pretty cool, but it's also really obvious that it's not good for DC in practice (i.e locking people out of sprites is bad). Most things on the site have already been moving in a direction where things that were previously limited or impossible to get (past Haloween CBs, Frills/Arias) are becoming available again.

 

I think it's possible to reconcile these two things. Perhaps (and I'm throwing this out as an idea even though I know it's going to stay around forever as "T.J. seemed okay with X back in 2017, when is it finally going to happen?") It'd be relatively easy to allow the eggs to breed true, such that the CBs stay tied to a given account, but it's then possible to get all of the sprites.

 

Or, the eggs that each person gets are still consistent per scroll, but rotate every year.

 

There's definitely options. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I love options!

 

My preference would still be to have some level of control over it via an influence of some sort. Breeding true would make a form of sense, but some people like to create alternating lines rather than exclusively having eggs breed true to their parents. Having it be scroll-locked but alternating every year would put a major delay on my current projects, but eh, I kind of like the idea anyway. I like the idea of being able to influence it more, though.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Oh cool. Breeding true would be a nice option, at least to me. Would allow users to pick up and collect dragons that otherwise wouldn't match their variant.
I would also be okay with rotating by year, but that would probably drag things out longer than just cooperating with other users to breed from the variant that you would like.

I'm sure there's pros and cons to both, but allowing users to get each variant would be great.

 

Edit- influencing might be a bit too much to ask. The control would be nice, but it might ruin the spirit of them in the first place. I'd be fine with trading people to get offspring of variants I need for projects if need would be.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Dragon_Arbock

[StarSea]

Personally I prefer the breeding true. Alternating each year could end up with a lot of breeders in extreme agony. You already have to wait an entire year just to expand your lineage to the next generation (or two years if you're doing a massive lineage and can't get all that you need in one year), alternating colors each year would be such a pain, especially if you only want one specific color in the lineage. Imagine missing a year or getting confused what color year it is. Then you've gone 5 years without expanding on your lineage at all. A 3rd gen lineage would take 6 years minimum from start to finish.

[TCA]

14 minutes ago, TJ09 said:

So if I remember correctly, the snow angel behavior was my idea (8 years ago). There were several variants proposed, and I basically said, "why not all?" I still think the idea of scroll-related dragons is pretty cool, but it's also really obvious that it's not good for DC in practice (i.e locking people out of sprites is bad, also on a breed that's already pretty limited). Most things on the site have already been moving in a direction where things that were previously limited or impossible to get (past Haloween CBs, Frills/Arias) are becoming available again.

 

I think it's possible to reconcile these two things. Perhaps (and I'm throwing this out as an idea even though I know it's going to stay around forever as "T.J. seemed okay with X back in 2017, when is it finally going to happen?") It'd be relatively easy to allow the eggs to breed true, such that the CBs stay tied to a given account, but it's then possible to get all of the sprites.

 

Or, the eggs that each person gets are still consistent per scroll, but rotate every year.

 

There's definitely options. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Thought experiment: Would it be possible to have the color be based on the scroll they hatch on, but they retain that color if transferred as hatchlings? That way, all lineages possible with previous setup are still possible, all colors are possible for any egg as before, the only difference is that by trading hatchlings a single scroll CAN have multiple Snow Angel colors.

 

Possibly best combined with a text indicator in the hatchie description that indicates what color it'll become.

Edited November 16, 2017 by TCA

[TJ09]

2 minutes ago, TCA said:

 

Thought experiment: Would it be possible to have the color be based on the scroll they hatch on, but they retain that color if transferred as hatchlings? That way, all lineages possible with previous setup are still possible, all colors are possible for any egg as before, the only difference is that by trading hatchlings a single scroll CAN have multiple Snow Angel colors.

That is indeed also possible.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Sounds a bit complicated to have it tied to hatching. Yes, the alternating lineages would be impossible, but I have a few relics on my scroll that are also now impossible (a 2nd gen pink from a bright pink). The other problem I have with having it be by hatching is that eggs I pick up from the AP would still be wrong unless I can get someone else to hatch them for me. Seems to cause just as many problems as it would solve.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Oooh, so happy to see that all snow angels might be possible after all!

 

The idea TCA mentioned (that what scroll an egg HATCHES on determines color) has been mentioned before and I still like it best. It does require a tad more finesse to pull things off, but it keeps the specialness of original Snow Angel colors while still letting everyone collect all sprites. I do think it would be nice though if, like Solstices, S2 Snow Angels' wings reflected what they would become.

 

@Dragon_Arbock Actually, bright pinks can still breed pinks, it's just rarer. Also while hatching would require a bit more work, I imagine there would be threads popping up around Christmas that let users arrange to swap as needed, ie "I'll hatch your egg if you hatch mine!"

 

Sure, there might be something better that hasn't been thought of yet (my brain is too foggy to brainstorm anything but more fog >___<), but I like it best of the three current suggestions. Alternating colors every year would be a huge pain in the rear (especially if you don't know what color you have until your first SA grows up--"oh crap, it grew the wrong wings, now what to do with all my others I expected to color differently?!), and I dislike breeding true because, while simple, if CB Christmases return it would kick out the possibility of getting CBs of every type.

Edited November 16, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Dragon_Arbock]

3 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

@Dragon_Arbock Actually, bright pinks can still breed pinks, it's just rarer. Also while hatching would require a bit more work, I imagine there would be threads popping up around Christmas that let users arrange to swap as needed, ie "I'll hatch your egg if you hatch mine!"

 

Sure, there might be something better that hasn't been thought of yet (my brain is too foggy to brainstorm anything but more fog >___<), but I like it best of the three current suggestions. Alternating colors every year would be a huge pain in the rear (especially if you don't know what color you have until your first SA grows up--"oh crap, it grew the wrong wings, now what to do with all my others I expected to color differently?!), and I dislike breeding true because, while simple, if CB Christmases return it would kick out the possibility of getting CBs of every type.

I did not know this. I don't think I've actually even bred my Arias after I finally got them.
I don't know how much I mind being locked to a CB of only one type. While having CBs of all three means I have to rely on others less for breeding 2nd gens, I'll still have to rely on others tenfold if I need other people to hatch things for me. I don't see how I'm going to be able to get people to want to take my AP catches, and then reliably give them back to me. At least with my own lines I could sorta arrange that ahead of time, but AP grabs when everyone will also be egglocked is iffy.

[LibbyLishly]

20 minutes ago, TCA said:

 

Thought experiment: Would it be possible to have the color be based on the scroll they hatch on, but they retain that color if transferred as hatchlings? That way, all lineages possible with previous setup are still possible, all colors are possible for any egg as before, the only difference is that by trading hatchlings a single scroll CAN have multiple Snow Angel colors.

 

Possibly best combined with a text indicator in the hatchie description that indicates what color it'll become.

I'd be down for this. Keeps that whole spirit of cooperation alive for the Christmas season, while also allowing me to work on my own projects with the dragon variant I've always had - and stays true to the unique heritage if the breed by continuing to have your scroll locked to a type in a way.

Edited November 16, 2017 by LibbyLishly

[Jazeki]

I'd be okay having a recessive color based on the mom's color or the color based on the scroll they hatch on (with a hatchie wing update accordingly). I don't mind yearly color swaps, but that might cause a lot of confusion or upset while waiting to get the color you want. 

[Leidarendi]

Any of these ideas would be great!

[Fuzzbucket]

15 minutes ago, LibbyLishly said:

I'd be down for this. Keeps that whole spirit of cooperation alive for the Christmas season, while also allowing me to work on my own projects with the dragon variant I've always had - and stays true to the unique heritage if the breed by continuing to have your scroll locked to a type in a way.

 

I'm with Libby.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Well, if we go with TCA's idea, gonna need to set up a hatchling swap hub. I also do want to keep in mind that to users who play the game but don't use the forums, it'll be like nothing has changed at all. I don't imagine players like that do much trading.

(on a sidenote, I wish there was messaging built into the main site).

[LibbyLishly]

@Dragon_Arbock It's highly likely that people will be tossing hatchlings into the AP, so non-forum users will still have a shot at getting them. They can always join the forum community or have someone they know personally post for them if they want a different variety badly enough.

Edited November 16, 2017 by LibbyLishly

[HeatherMarie]

Yeah, I really don't like the hatching idea. It really completely excludes anyone who isn't on the forums (or fansites that have trading sections) and I just don't think that's very fair at all. I mean be honest, how many hatchlings are going to be abandoned to the AP? Hardly any, if normal hatchling-in-AP behavior is consistent. Unless tons of hatchings are abandoned to the AP, users who don't have the means to trade directly with others have *no* way of getting those other colors, which hardly seems fair.

 

I'd much rather have the breeds-true option, because since Holidays multi-clutch anyways there will be plenty of SA eggs going to the AP so plenty of opportunity to get those different colors. Rotating through the years sounds needlessly looooong... I mean we have breeds where we have to wait a couple months for the variants (Seasonals), but waiting three years?!

 

Oh, Libby posted while I was typing this. I honestly don't think there will be enough people tossing hatchlings to the AP to make this a reasonable idea. Holidays are SO limited in the first place, are there really going to be a bunch of people willing to let eggs take up scroll space for days just to toss the hatchies to the AP? I know this Halloween there was a forum thread for people who hatched the low-time AP eggs and threw them back, but that was at the very very end of the drop, and was fairly limited.

[Dragon_Arbock]

There might be some hatchlings, if what happened this halloween is anything to go by, but more than likely they'll be the wrong gender and variant in the end anyhow.
I think the forums being a separate thing people have to sign up for deters some people. And I have also noticed there's a good number of accounts on the forums that have 0 posts, for some reason. Not sure why. But I can count the number of people who I see regularly on here on two hands, which isn't really anything compared to the number who play.
Of course, lineage building isn't for everyone either, but people say Christmas is the busiest time of the year, then to add to that people having to hatch eggs for eachother to get the right variant sounds needlessly complex. I'll be grateful if any of these ideas get implemented, but I have to point out the flaws in each.

[olympe]

May I suggest something different, if not actually new? I know there even was a scientific explanation for how the BSA was supposed to work, I'll try to re-create it if necessary.

 

BSA for Snow Angels: Adopt

Applicable to: Snow Angel eggs only. (No restriction on the "time left".)

What does it do? It makes sure the influenced egg hatches with the same wing color as the "adopted" Snow Angel mom. Teleporting and/or abandoning the egg before hatching makes the Adoption wear off.

Cooldown:  2 weeks? I think it should only be available once per breeding season and adult Snow Angel.

 

The one big benefit of this method over TCA's suggestion (see quote below for reference):

After year 1, you'll be able to influence your own eggs in any given color. Not many (probably), but you'll be able to do it in larger numbers eventually.

You'll still need to trade for influenced hatchlings / exchange.

I think this is way better than Snow Angel wing colors breeding true (eg. all offspring looking like their mothers), too, since there are some beautifully patterned lineages out there, too.

49 minutes ago, TCA said:

 

Thought experiment: Would it be possible to have the color be based on the scroll they hatch on, but they retain that color if transferred as hatchlings? That way, all lineages possible with previous setup are still possible, all colors are possible for any egg as before, the only difference is that by trading hatchlings a single scroll CAN have multiple Snow Angel colors.

 

Possibly best combined with a text indicator in the hatchie description that indicates what color it'll become.

[

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by olympe
better visibility, nothing else.

[LibbyLishly]

In re: AP hatchlings: I guarantee there will be a project mounted to toss as many hatchlings into the AP as possible for this very purpose.

 

But honestly, if people aren't on the forums or another community and don't have any family or close friends who are or who they can trade with, will they even know this is a possibility? Will they care? It seems strange to be making objections on behalf of people who have specifically chosen not to be part of the community for reasons of their own and thus whose opinions we can't know.

 

Anyway, I still like TCA's idea, but Olympe's is great.too, since it has that BSA influence element that I particularly favor.

[Dragon_Arbock]

@LibbyLishly I probably wouldn't be part if I didn't have to be. but if I don't speak my opinions here, they'll never be heard. More and more I am a very solitary person.

 

What Olympe has brought up could work. Would be slow at first, but would eventually serve everyone's needs. Only thing is would be nice if teleporting didn't make it wear off.

[olympe]

I'm sure that exchanging (incu-)hatchable eggs for mutual "adoption" and trading back the hatchlings will become a thing, though. "Influence for me", indeed.

[HeatherMarie]

I actually know a good number of people who love DragonCave but are not on the forums or any DC-related community. I think it's sort of selfish to specifically exclude them and be all "well if they don't want to be a part of the community they won't care", that's just not true. Anyone who has looked at SA lineages or browsed other scrolls would know about the existence of other colors, and while right now there is nothing that they can do about that, if there *was* something they could do about it but they were left out because they didn't have anyone to trade with... Well I know *I* would be pissed. Even IF there is a huge movement of tons and tons of users abandoning hatchlings to the AP (and I honestly can't see there being enough users abandoning enough hatchies for the colors to really be spread out all that much), I still *much* prefer some way that doesn't rely on other people so much. I mean DC is a very solitary game, honestly, so why implement something where you can only get it by relying on other people's generosity?

[Fuzzbucket]

26 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

There might be some hatchlings, if what happened this halloween is anything to go by, but more than likely they'll be the wrong gender and variant in the end anyhow.
I think the forums being a separate thing people have to sign up for deters some people. And I have also noticed there's a good number of accounts on the forums that have 0 posts, for some reason. Not sure why. But I can count the number of people who I see regularly on here on two hands, which isn't really anything compared to the number who play.
Of course, lineage building isn't for everyone either, but people say Christmas is the busiest time of the year, then to add to that people having to hatch eggs for eachother to get the right variant sounds needlessly complex. I'll be grateful if any of these ideas get implemented, but I have to point out the flaws in each.

 

Snow Angels are female only. So.... the misgendering thing won't be a problem.