ANSWERED:Spinels Not Producing PB Greens

[Moonlight_Eevee]

So, I find it incredibly odd that breed with other Earth Aligned Dragons, Spinel Wyverns can produce Green Spinel Wyverns yet when breed with each other all they ever produce are red eggs. I want to know the chances of getting a green from two red Spinels as no one has gotten one yet. Can they produce green offspring? Or can they produce only red Spinels?

[TJ09]

The information provided with the Spinels says green Spinels are bred "if both parents are Earth element, though green alt breeds true if bred with not-Earth."

 

Nothing in there covers how a pair of red Spinels breed. One could argue that Spinel x Spinel falls under the more general Spinel x {any earth} case. That means, however, that the former would always produce green Spinels just as the latter does; that seems to not be the intent, so I excluded the PB pairing from that case.

 

Thus, right now they can only produce more red Spinels. Given the confusion, I may change it so that there's an even chance of both, but I'd have to follow up with TCA on that first to make sure that it's okay to deviate from what she intended.

[Fuzzbucket]

Bumping to ask - if I try to breed a PB spinel line - will a checker red green NEVER be possible - will two spinels always make green ?

[Seriva Senkalora]

It seems so.

https://dragcave.net/lineage/ghHfk

 

Unfortunately a PB red lineage is also impossible... (Got the 2G reds before the changes were made.)

https://dragcave.net/lineage/G7muc

 

Both pairs gave me only greens so far.

https://dragcave.net/progeny/yhY70

https://dragcave.net/progeny/H7Naa

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Seriva Senkalora

[Fuzzbucket]

That's what I was afraid of, but I'd like official conformation. So sad - I wanted to do a checker

[Helel]

Just to be clear, If I want Green Spinels - I can breed two CB Spinels, and I WILL get 2G Green ones, right?

 

It's just my Spinels don't like giving me eggs (even with Fertility), so I need to be sure, before I will try to breed them weak after weak

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Speaking to TCA about the purebreds on the Discord clarified that she never actually thought about the PB mechanics much. However, she also said that they are supposed to produce both (much like the the rest of the breed alts, greens are supposed to be rare to get and reds were supposed to be common) but for some reason, the mechanic for PBs is screwed up to where no one got greens at first and now no one can get reds

[Fuzzbucket]

It was screwed up AT FIRST - but now it isn't: when bred with earth they breed green - and they are earth, so....

[olympe]

Which, if you think about it, doesn't really make sense. CB spinels, which would have been bred in the wild - and are most likely pureblooded - are pink. And yet, if they're bred in captivity, they don't produce offspring of their own kind.

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, to quote Dalek Raptor, apparently TCA didn't think it through very hard

 

I wish she would; I wanted to do a red/green checker

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Only TCA can tell you exactly what's going on. I asked her as soon as I noticed this thread getting bumped for attention and I'm just quoting what she told me as best as I can remember

[Draconiusultamius]

On 10/22/2017 at 2:55 PM, TJ09 said:

The information provided with the Spinels says green Spinels are bred "if both parents are Earth element, though green alt breeds true if bred with not-Earth."

 

Nothing in there covers how a pair of red Spinels breed. One could argue that Spinel x Spinel falls under the more general Spinel x {any earth} case. That means, however, that the former would always produce green Spinels just as the latter does; that seems to not be the intent, so I excluded the PB pairing from that case.

 

Thus, right now they can only produce more red Spinels. Given the confusion, I may change it so that there's an even chance of both, but I'd have to follow up with TCA on that first to make sure that it's okay to deviate from what she intended.

Are they producing greens right now? Noticed this thread and realized that I have https://dragcave.net/lineage/4xcrU.

[Guillotine]

Yes, right now purebreeding reds will only produce greens.
 

[bandaidstealer]

Will a green always be produced when bred with an earth element?  Or is it a chance to breed green?

[The_Impossible_Girl]

42 minutes ago, bandaidstealer said:

Will a green always be produced when bred with an earth element?  Or is it a chance to breed green?

I think there's only a chance that such a combination would produce a green Spinel. I think the reason why so many green Spinels are being produced is because their ratios are uneven when compared with regular Spinels and other dragons.

[Fuzzbucket]

Also because people keep hoping that green x green will in the end produce red....

 

Any spinel bred with an earth will always produce a green spinel or the other other breed, though. You will never get a red spinel that way.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[bandaidstealer]

I really wish it was just a chance to produce a green.  Red Spinel x Gold looks great together, but the checker pattern gets ruined with the greens.

[VixenDra]

Fix the red ones plz https://dragcave.net/progeny/HwUbg (these had at LEAST 1 more green kid that died behind the holiday wall, also seems these get killed pretty often? wish they weren't, it it's the ratios problem kiling greens doensn't help:/)
I'll need 2 more reds from this pair:/

if they were intentionally broken, it's wrong because PB reds do exist around arleady, DC had way too many drama around exclisivity, no more is needed

Edited March 21, 2018 by VixenDra

[Fuzzbucket]

You won't get them unless the whole thing changes; Spinels are earth, so... The reds were the freaks. I never ever managed one, sadly.

[TCA]

Hey, when I talked to TJ last about it, I said my preference was for PB reds to have a chance to produce either. Maybe y'all just borked the ratios for reds or something I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited March 21, 2018 by TCA

[Fuzzbucket]

Bless you. I will live in hope

[Lovecats]

I feel like the Red-Green ratios will have to change completely to solve all of our problems in wanting CB Spinels in PB lineages to produce both greens and reds rather than just greens and for both colourations of Spinel to be produced from earth-aligned dragons. (TL:DR at the bottom.)

 

So i've been thinking about  our weird Spinel ratios and wondered whether a real-life genetic model could fix our problems? To me, it doesn't make sense that once the Reds grow up, they solely produce greens with other Spinels (i.e PB lines) for the rest of their lives. If Fuzz's idea is true and that Reds are the minority, then the gene causing Red Spinels would have to be recessive. Yet for this to make sense this would mean all the CB Spinels we can catch would have to be homozygous recessive (have the genes able to produce only Reds.) Since they are able to produce Greens, the Red Spinels being be heterozygous for both colourations (be able to produce both Green and Red offspring.) The fact that 100% of the CB Spinels we get are Reds leads me to believe that the gene for Red Spinels would therefore be dominant rather than recessive. Here are a couple punnett squares to show this:

 

Dominant = Red

Recessive = Green

 

What CB Spinels should be producing according to Fuzz's law:

 - occurred prior to the patch (e.g. here), 100% of offspring = reds

 

What CB Spinels do right now:

 - doesn't really make sense, 100% of offspring = greens

 

What they should be doing right now according to my theory: (if CB Red Spinels were heterozygous dominant)

 

Green (HH) = Homozygous Green

Yellow (Hh) = Heterozygous Red (a carrier of the Green gene)

Red (hh) = Homozygous Red

 

Therefore, a CB Spinel x CB Spinel pairing should have a 3/4 probability of producing a Red and a 1/4 probability of producing a Green. A solely Red Spinel lineage would be able to be produced rather than just the Green we have, at the moment.

 

The system could solve the earth-aligned x Spinel problem:

Heterozygous CB Red Spinel x a CB Terrae

There would still be a high probability (3/4) to get a Green, but a heterozygous Red would have a 1/4 probability to be produced, allowing for lineages such as this to be produced even if they are from earth-aligned dragons. That would give people (granted they have the patience) the chance to breed eath-aligned Spinel lineages with Red Spinels rather than just the Green ones.

 

Different types of Spinels may be also produced from PBs:

 - 75% probability for reds, 25% for greens

 

Of course, this system's pretty flawed for dragcave since it makes green Spinels (the more earth-aligned ones) rarer to breed which sorta pushes away Spinel's Elemental Affinity (earth), which doesn't  really make a lot of sense. There's also the problem that the system would make producing alternating PB Spinel lines like this (a line which i'd actually like to do) impossible since it would mean that Green Spinels would lose the genes and therefore the ability to produce Red Spinels unless they are bred to another Red Spinel. There's also the flaw that if wild Spinels are heterozygous, wouldn't there be a 1/4 chance to catch a CB Green Spinel in the biomes?

 

Therefore, and since this is just a game and doesn't need to be absolutely scientifically accurate, I would say the best thing we could possibly do to make everybody happy would be, rather than using my genetic system, to change the ratios we're using now to a 50/50 chance for lineaged PB Spinels to gain either colouration of Spinel since this would allow for all types of PB Spinel lineage to be built (e.g. CB Reds + PB Green/solely PB Red Spinels/alternating Red-Greens.) As for earth-aligned ones, the model I made up could work for most people planning to build lineages but what about those who want to work on alternating Spinel x other breed line such as the one below? Making the 50/50 chance of getting either a Red or a Green Spinel universal would make all types of lines buildable though i'm not sure whether this'll go against the original Spinel's creator(s) wishes. Maybe by making Red Spinels bred from earth-aligned dragons have a lower probability (e.g 10-25%) of being bred would work.

 

below

Lemme know if I completely messed up any bits in that genetic model of mine btw. I need to pass my exams with that knowledge so if i''m not getting it right, i've definitely got some work to do.

 

TL;DR: I got reaaalllllly bored and decided to plan out a system of Spinel genetic inheritance. Make PB Spinels have a 50/50 chance of producing either colouration and Red Spinels from earth-aligned pairings something like a 1/3 probability to be bred in order to make everyone happy.

Edited March 21, 2018 by lovecats99

[Ruby Eyes]

I like it Would this need to be a suggestion?

Edited March 21, 2018 by Ruby Eyes

[Lovecats]

19 hours ago, Ruby Eyes said:

I like it Would this need to be a suggestion?

 

Hmmm. Well, I guess since its something different to the original discussion here, I should post it in suggestions.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

34 minutes ago, lovecats99 said:

 

Hmmm. Well, I guess since its something different to the original discussion here, I should post it in suggestions.

I second this. I'm guessing since the original question was answered, this can be closed?