Wilderness Page Game Mechanic

[Dragonwhisper23]

I'm a relatively new player, only having started actively playing in the last month. August's release was the first release I have seen. So I still don't have a full hang on how things work. But I do love the wilderness page.  It's filled with the beautiful dragon sprites that many of artists worked on. But aside from display of the sprites and interesting lineages, there's no real use for this page. What I'm proposing would almost definitely be a long time project, possibly months of coding and beta testing before, if ever, released but I believe it would be worth it in the end and it would also solve up a few other requests as well (two birds, one stone).

 

To my knowledge, dragons on the wilderness page were originally 'owned' by users and have been released. On the AP page it states this: "Once an egg has been touched by a human, the human's scent rubs off onto the egg. The mother dragon then will reject the egg and no longer be able to tell that it is her own. " so it is not to far fetched to assume that dragons on the wilderness page still have the human stench and were brought up in human society. Most animals raised in captivity can't be released due to dependence on humans, and those raised near humans have the tendency not to fear humans. I propose that there be a mini-game to try and tame the dragons. 

 

In this mini game users are given several options on taming the dragon. Feed, Play, Pet and Run. Dragons with playful natures would respond well to the play action. Those with appetites respond to the feed action. Those who adore affection respond to pet. Run either takes you back to the dragons page or wilderness. 

These actions have a number of results.

You tame the dragon.(Success)

The dragon seems curious to your behavior.(Return to action select, nearing success)

The dragon snorts at your behavior, not impressed. (Return to action select, nearing failure)

The dragon growls, steadily becoming less amused. (Return to action select, nearing failure)

The dragon turns its back on you, not interested in your attempts. (Fail)

The dragon returns to the underbrush (Fail)

Upon a success the dragon is added to your Scroll. On a fail, like run, it either takes you to the dragons page or Wild. 

 

Pros:

• Gives new users like myself a chance to get dragons that we can no longer receive (solves the debate if to re-release CB holiday dragons and the such)
• Adds a new dynamic to the game
• Fun
• Gives purpose to the wilderness page 

Cons:

• may make rare and holiday dragons not as rare (fix: make rare and holiday dragons have a lower success rate. Then with holidays, up the rate near and on their respective holidays (which adds hype too))
• may be seen as unfair as it would help users up their dragon ranking (fix: A limit on how many dragons one can attempt to tame per day)
• Difficult to code/implement/ will take forever.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Dragonwhisper23

[Confused Cat]

This would be fun, but not enough to make up for the downsides.

It would not be a solution to the "unobtainable CB old holidays" problem. (I don't know how many CB Hollies there are in the wilderness, but... definitely not enough for everybody. )

 

(More) cons:

• Some players release their dragons for specific reasons and would not want them to be able to be brought back on other scrolls. They might want to make sure a dragon is never bred again (because the dragon is inbred, messy-lineaged, or otherwise not matching the player's current plaing style). They'd be rather annoyed if someone else could tame the dragon they released and add it back into the game.
• When a dragon is released, it is still visible in lineages and shows all ancestors. If someone tames that dragon and then kills it (for whatever reason), existing lineages will be changed when the original owner might have wanted to avoid that exact thing by releasing it instead of killing it.
• If I remember correctly, TJ said there will never be a way to get wild dragons on a scroll. However, I think he also once said not to shut down ideas just because he was opposed to them at some point, so I guess this can still be discussed.

 

(Here's an old topic that was closed two years ago.)

 

Edit: Wow. I refreshed the forum in another tab, like, one second before posting my reply to make sure there wasn't a reply already saying the exact same thing, but I guess Fiona is a Super-Ninja.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Confused Cat

[Fiona]

Sorry, no. When people release a dragon to the wilderness it's with the intention that the dragon will be unobtainable by anyone else. Further, the wilderness serves the purpose of preserving lineages for dragons that have progeny on other people's scrolls. There are other, better ways for a newer user to get dragons that they don't have.

 

There are also other, better received ideas for obtaining CB past holiday dragons. These are the only breeds still unobtainable as caveborns, currently. They are completely obtainable as bred dragons, however. And your idea does not, in fact, solve the issue for people obtaining past holiday dragons are there would be a far greater demand for them than the supply in the wilderness.

[VixenDra]

16 minutes ago, Confused Cat said:

• When a dragon is released, it is still visible in lineages and shows all ancestors. If someone tames that dragon and then kills it (for whatever reason), existing lineages will be changed when the original owner might have wanted to avoid that exact thing by releasing it instead of killing it.

 

Exactly this is why Wilderness should stay as is for good. 

 

I actually have a suggestion about the Winderness... make it inaccessible so players stop being frustrated about the desirable dragons 'getting wasted in there" and don't make reoccuring suggestions to be able to grab them and, as a result, to make people start mass Killing instead of Releasing and, as a result of the result, affect lineages that were supposed to be safe before or whatever.

And simply re-release CB holidays either into biomes or sth or into a shop instead. Simply SOME way to obtain them. There will be no more of such a great need to take stuff from the Wilderness then, as everything else that is in there is at least obtainable by some other means. CB Holidays in there and CB Prizes seem to hurt and frustrate people the most, but the Prizes are at least somehow obtainable now.

 

DC simply NEEDS some way to get rid of a dragon from the game without having to kill it. And Release has been this option all that time. Perhaps making the Wildreness an accessible page was really a mistake (because it frustrates so much)?

 

I know there are people who like just going through the Wilderness to see what lineages some ended up with, but that could be maybe replaced by a hidden page that shows random non-growing dragons from random unhidden scrolls?

 

 

Anyways, a no to an ability to take dragons from the Wilderness... because *look at the quote*

[Fuzzbucket]

If I released a dragon, I did so for a reason. It is my business what that reason was - but I am sure I don't want to see that dragon show up again on someone else's scroll.

[HeatherMarie]

Yeah, no. This has been proposed multiple times in the past and heavily shot down every time. I completely agree with what others have stated. When users use the "Release" action, they do it with certain expectations and knowledge; Namely, that the dragon will remain in the Wilderness, and can never be owned or bred again. MANY users would not have released dragons to the Wilderness if there was any chance at all that others could adopt and then breed them, and it seems rather rude to take an already-existing game mechanic and retroactively change the way it works, so that dragons that people released with those expectations can suddenly be adopted. The *only* way I would ever support any way of being able to adopt dragons from a "wilderness" is if a completely separate "wilderness" was created, where users could *choose* to "release" their dragon to that specific wilderness with the warning/knowledge that someone else may be able to adopt it. However, that would not help with your issue of obtaining currently-unobtainable dragons.

 

Also, something I personally have an issue with concerning this idea, is that it's basically a free adult dragon with no work. Sure, you have to do the "mini-game", but that will take what, two minutes, and then you have a fully grown dragon on your scroll without having to raise it at all. One of the basic parts of this game is the fact that you don't just get random adult dragons thrown into your lap, you have to take a little time and effort to grow them (not counting the recently-released Sinomorphs, but those have plenty of other effort-intensive restrictions). I personally don't see users being able to go grab random adult dragons all the time as a positive thing for this game.

[Fuzzbucket]

If this came in, I wouldn't release any more; I'd just kill.

[Draconiusultamius]

Honestly, while I don't wanna allow people to grab from the wilderness page, maybe there could be a way to befriend 'fully wild dragons', like special events or something, maybe like dragons approaching you while searching for eggs (which seems plausible).  It'd be more long term for the player, with the dragon befriending the player over a period of days, before gifting it an egg or something.  This would require dedication on the player's part as well as add a little fun to the game.  Wild dragons would have different temperaments and difficulties, making it challenging for the player.  It could also allow for wild x captive pairings of dragons.  Scenarios could be something such as: Player stumbles upon injured dragon, player is attacked by angry dragon, dragon approaches player cautiously/ curiously/ aggressively/ etc.  Eggs gifted from these dragons cannot be gifted, intentionally killed, or abandoned.  I'm also thinking that it's possible for specific dragons to give players eggs from a different breed, such as a white dragon giving a player an egg they were caring for, common dragons having a chance of giving neglected eggs, etc.  It might even be cool to have the wild dragons interacting with the player's dragons or scroll, such as a wild dragon requiring their egg to be healed, etc. and wild dragons asking players to help them take care of an egg, which will not go towards their egg count as it will return to the wild after a specified amount of time.  It's just an idea though, but I think it might make everyone happy (hopefully!).

[HeatherMarie]

I really don't see the point in most of that. It might be kind of cool to "interact" with wild dragons, as in simple text that lets you watch or approach a wild dragon, possibly even pet it if you gain it's trust. But the other stuff just seems like way too much. Why would Wild dragons give their own eggs to humans, who they don't know will take good care of them? If a Wild dragon were to trust a human enough to ask a human to heal their own egg, etc, why wouldn't the Wild dragon just become a part of the human's clan instead of remaining "Wild"? (thinking lore-wise here) How would a Wild dragon be able to give a human an egg that isn't even theirs? Wouldn't the Wild parents of the egg attack the human when they found out? Definite NO for Wild dragons being able to just give a player a Neglected... Those things take tons of effort to make, and that's the way it's supposed to be. And in general, why include Wild dragons in all these different scenerios when players already have hundreds or thousands of dragons of their own to breed, and take care of?

[RainDear]

Dragons are intelligent animals that do not need humans to care for them. The Wilderness dragons have already had a human interaction which for whatever reason did not work out for them. Now, they are happily living out their lives in their own ways. Why would they be seeking new human interaction? The Wilderness is like a wild animal park where we can go to see the wild dragons living out their lives without us. That's all it needs to be.

[The Dragoness]

I'm always interested in hearing suggestions on how to make the game more inclusive for new players, but I just don't think this suggestion would pan out as well as you hope. With time, new users can get 95% of the exisiting species anyway. CB past Holidays and Prizes are really the only breeds they can't get eventually (unless they win a raffle), and that extends to the rest of the player base as well. I myself am missing several CB Holidays. If players were able to grab dragons from the Wilderness, I get the feeling that one (if not all) of these things would happen:

 

1. Players would fight over CB rares, Holidays, and Prizes. Fast clicking players would be bullied for "stealing" from others. This already happens with the biomes.

2. Trading. I'll use myself as an example here. Let's say I manage to find a CB Gold in the Wilderness. Well, I already have two sets of CB Golds. I really don't need another. So what happens if I try to trade that Gold for a 2G Prize or Neglected?

3. CB Holidays/other hard to get breeds would be grabbed before new players can find them.

4. Once the "desirable" dragons are gone (CB rares, Holidays, Prizes, etc.), players would lose interest in the Wilderness again, making the mini game feature pointless.

 

We already have the Abandoned Page. Plus, a mini game like this doesn't really fit into the atmosphere of DC.  DC is about putting hard work into building your scroll. That's why we have breeds like the GoNs, Sinomorphs, Neglecteds, and Zombies. Allowing players to just skip the work and go straight to the reward is a definite no from me. Sorry, but I just don't see myself supporting this suggestion. 

 

Edited September 17, 2017 by The Dragoness

[Draconiusultamius]

21 hours ago, Marie19R said:

I really don't see the point in most of that. It might be kind of cool to "interact" with wild dragons, as in simple text that lets you watch or approach a wild dragon, possibly even pet it if you gain it's trust. But the other stuff just seems like way too much. Why would Wild dragons give their own eggs to humans, who they don't know will take good care of them? If a Wild dragon were to trust a human enough to ask a human to heal their own egg, etc, why wouldn't the Wild dragon just become a part of the human's clan instead of remaining "Wild"? (thinking lore-wise here) How would a Wild dragon be able to give a human an egg that isn't even theirs? Wouldn't the Wild parents of the egg attack the human when they found out? Definite NO for Wild dragons being able to just give a player a Neglected... Those things take tons of effort to make, and that's the way it's supposed to be. And in general, why include Wild dragons in all these different scenerios when players already have hundreds or thousands of dragons of their own to breed, and take care of?

I guess that's true, but its mostly to give players a chance to get a hold of CB holiday eggs (although I feel like CB prize eggs should be left out of this).  I honestly feel like a dragon would be more wiling to give the player an egg, rather than just join the player, as it is used to living in the wild.  If a human takes their time and effort to befriend a dragon, I'd assume the dragon, being intelligent, might be fine with letting players have an egg.  Also, for dragons giving eggs that aren't theirs, perhaps the parents were neglecting the egg or maybe they didn't want it.  Perhaps it was an egg abandoned from a scroll after two dragons bred without their human knowing (I mean, realistically they probably DO interbreed while were away).  Perhaps the parents were killed.  Also, the wild dragons may not be 'handing' neglecteds to the player.  Maybe players are required to care for some other wild eggs first, or spend a few months (real time) gaining the dragon's trust.  To me, that'd be enough dedication to the site to warrant something, meaning that it DOES require a lot of effort and dedication.  Mainly, it's to give players a REASON to come back daily, as many people on the site have actually wanted the implementation of minigames or something as there isn't much interaction within the site itself and after a while, it kind of becomes a chore for some.

[Zeditha]

I'd say it should take about a week, rather than months, to befriend a dragon enough that you can ask it to breed with another dragon (either one from your scroll, or another that you've befriended.)

 

How opposed to the idea of having access to breeding abandoned dragons would people be if the befriended dragons weren't on scrolls, so you couldn't do any actions to them? (no Kill, no Enrage/Pacify, no BSAs... all you can do is breed.)

And what limitations should be in place? Like, how many befriended dragons can you have at once? Do you have to visit the dragons more when they're befriended so that they stay friendly? Can more than one person befriend the same dragon? What happens if multiple people want to breed the same dragon that they've all befriended? (I'm thinking a cooldown that only applies to the person who bred it - IE you can't breed it again until a week (or two?) has passed, but others can (which will start their cooldown))

 

Bringing already-adult dragons straight to the scroll isn't something I can agree with - Sinomorphs are bad enough already - but having the ability to breed some extra dragons, perhaps with extra fail chances, seems like an interesting alternative.

Should I start a separate thread for the idea of having breeding access to wilderness dragons, or do people not like the idea at all?

[Fuzzbucket]

That's two questions

 

Sure start a thread if you like.

But I hate the idea

[Stromboli]

Yeah, I am not for changing how the wilderness works at this point. There are dragons I released because I want them alive, but not on my scroll.

 

I'd made some inbred Nebula lineages bc I'm lazy and didn't want to have to hunt for tons and tons of them, but wanted to try out patterns. After I had a pair that didn't refuse, I'd release their parents so I didn't accidentally use those inbred dragons for anything else. I don't want someone to be able to pick one of them up, say "ew, inbreeding," and kill several generations of lineage.

[HeatherMarie]

Go ahead and make the thread if you want, Zeditha, but you'll have some strong opposition.

 

As I've said already in this thread, and as others have said as well, Wilderness dragons were released by users with the expectation/knowledge that they would be forever "Wild". Many, many users that Release dragons do so specifically to keep them from being bred. So a suggestion to not adopt them but be able to breed them would still go against that, and would make *many* users very unhappy. That's something I really won't ever support, unless it was specifically stated and made so that only dragons released *after* a warning was put into place would be able to breed.

 

Also, from a lore standpoint, I think it would definitely take more then a week to befriend a wild dragon enough to get them to breed for you. These dragons have spent, in many cases, *many* years in the Wild, away from any human interaction. They are all very, very independent and used to doing things their own way without human interference. I think it would take much longer then just a week to befriend a Wild dragon to the point where it will trust you at all, nevermind letting you *breed* it. (Especially considering that dragons that were released *used* to have human friends/carers/etc, and that human *abandoned* them into the Wild... They are probably not going to be very quick to trust again!)

Edited September 18, 2017 by Marie19R

[Fuzzbucket]

And actually - how MANY CB holidays are in there - never mind rares...

[LadyLyzar]

Personally I feel the Wilderness is good as it is.  It allows you to click on adults and hatchlings in order to further your Dragon Encyclopedia, and it also may show some breeds of dragons that you don't have yet!  IMO I feel that being able to "tame" a wild dragon sort of takes away from the spirit of DC's egg raising gameplay.

[olympe]

The ability to tame wild dragons only serves those purposes:

• Depleting the wilderness. And all too soon, there won't be anything left that's worth taming. 
  
• Benefit the people who happen to play actively right now. Because, eventually, there won't be anything left worth taming because everyone will do their best to tame whatever they fancy.
  
• Enraging people who released dragons with intent (getting it off their scroll, but keeping lineages intact; RP reasons...)

 

Overall, I don't think that a short-lived benefit for now-active players is worth changing game mechanics that drastically.

 

[Dragonwhisper23]

Hiya, I'm actually conducting a survey of the dragons in the wilderness for stats. All done on an excel spreadsheet (so much fun).

Trust me I've come across a lot. I've found many CB vamps with no Childre (pardon my use of VTM terms) so when it comes done to availability, seems to be plenty.

As for the concept of fighting, the wilderness as of current doesn't seem to allow it. Refreshing two tabs of wilderness has shown that it is EXTREMELY unlikely for this to occur as the pages are yet to show a singular repeat. That's out of the sixty-four dragons shown per page, over several refreshes.

 

From a game designers point of view, a mini game is kind of what dragon cave needs. There's simply no drive to the game and it gets boring and tedious really fast. On my scroll, I had signed up in March. There isn't much of a tutorial. Lore is hard to find in game. Dragon eggs are hard to hatch without the use of fansites. The forums are a tad bit redundant in the fact that it takes hours to be mod approved and that it is not linked up to ones game account. And to put it bluntly, it has the potential to be great but simply isn't meeting it. This thread is to improve game play. To make it more interesting. To perhaps add more lore to the game. I like the idea of it taking weeks to befriend dragons, but it adds more complications to the minigame. With it being so hard to find the same one dragon in the wild it would make it hard to keep up interactions. This obviously could be solved with bookmarking dragons (what I've done with the survey, and to look for two dragons i have special interest in (Vampire dragon code (supa) which after 20+ refreshes of the wilderness i'm yet to have a repeat finding of him) or with coding that links dragons to ones scroll despite being still wild.

 

The mini game wasn't designed to take "two minutes". It's based off strategy (knowing what dragon you're dealing with to know what actions pacify it) and pure luck, as those dragons that are more common would be significantly easier than holidays and rares (if i was designing it negs would be impossible to gain via this method. what dragon that's been abused would want human relations?).

 

Now from a personal point of view I'd take the opportunity to make the minigame learning based. Use it to add lore, explore how human and dragons actually interact in the fictional world and to add an interactive. If I was actually to design the minigame I'd conduct a survey to find what demographic the community is and form a learning tool around that. That's just me personally. (*cough* is bitter over the fact that had to take non compulsory maths to even know what tax is and how I'll be paying it.*cough*)

 

Also a topic I'm sure would get A LOT of backlash is money. A way of making it accessible to everyone but not having it over done to the point of wilderness empty is to pay for extra plays at the minigame. (Trust me, to code this deserves some pay)

If that's not to work and having weeks to complete is the way, the minigame perhaps should be structured as a quest, whether it be RPG style or not and have daily advancements. but that makes it less a "minigame" and more full game. I am open to ways of structuring it. I'm even willing to do a screenshot play through (please no coding) to see how we could play it out.

 

Uh... Okay, Ima gonna go back to spread sheet statistics. Thanks for input so far

Edited September 19, 2017 by Dragonwhisper23
sorry, reread. took a bit out.

[Fiona]

In-game lore has and is being added to the game through the encyclopedia. What you see there is mostly all the lore that exists. Adding to it via a mini-game is not a bad idea but takes a lot of work. I don't think using the wilderness for that will fly. You may not know yet that 100% of the coding for this game is done by one person, in his spare time. TJ09 started this game more than a decade ago as a high school student and has fleshed it out and improved it all through his remaining high school years, through college and now as a full time working adult. 100% of the artwork for the game is done by unpaid volunteers - the "incave" artists. We've sprited dragons that have been accepted by TJ09 for release to the game. All the events, which take place at Halloween, Christmas, Valentine's Day and Easter are put together by the incavers, in our spare time, on a volunteer basis. That includes coming up with the concept for the holiday event, plus doing any and all artwork for it.

 

Posting suggestions here for improvements to the game is great. It's something that should be encouraged. Just because you're getting a fair amount of negative feedback on this particular flavor of idea doesn't mean the basic idea has no value. Only that there are aspects of your idea that don't appeal to the long time game players. Most of us like the simplicity of the game as it currently stands. We like the freedom to adjust our involvement as it suits us, participating in lineage building if that interests us, or gifting and trading if that is what suits us. There are any number of playstyles. DC accommodates them all fairly well. (not perfectly, of course.)

 

As for the relevance of the forum here, for most of us it's a key part of gameplay and that's where you meet up with and interact with other players in lineage building and trading, forum games and the like. The moderation issue you're facing will vanish once you've hit 10 posts.

 

 

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Dragonwhisper23 said:

From a game designers point of view, a mini game is kind of what dragon cave needs. There's simply no drive to the game and it gets boring and tedious really fast. On my scroll, I had signed up in March. There isn't much of a tutorial. Lore is hard to find in game. Dragon eggs are hard to hatch without the use of fansites. The forums are a tad bit redundant in the fact that it takes hours to be mod approved and that it is not linked up to ones game account. And to put it bluntly, it has the potential to be great but simply isn't meeting it. This thread is to improve game play. To make it more interesting. To perhaps add more lore to the game.

 

DragonCave has been around, and fairly busy and successful, for 11 years. There are thousands upon thousands of active players. I don't think DC "needs" anything like this at all, and I certainly don't think there is "no drive" to the game. I am actively playing on the game 2-4 hours every single day. Breeding, naming, describing, and hunting for eggs takes up a lot of time! I get that, for extreme-newbies who don't have much in the way of adult dragons, their options may be a little more limited, and I know some people don't like the amount of time it takes to raise a dragon. But that certainly doesn't mean the game needs such a huge change.

 

Do you have access to all the Encyclopedia information yet? Once you are able to unlock information there, by viewing or raising dragons of that specific breed, you will see that there is *tons* of lore in the game. And even more is given during holiday events. Not all species have Encyclopedia info, which is something some of us are asking to change, but there is tons there if you poke around. The forum not being linked to your game account is very deliberate and very, very helpful for many people, especially those who don't like random users viewing their scroll.

 

I understand, to a certain extent, why a new user would come in here and want to change stuff "for the better", but many many long-time users like the game the way it is now and don't really care for any drastic changes, especially something like this that will completely undermine actions that users have taken in the past.

[purplehaze]

1 hour ago, Marie19R said:

I understand, to a certain extent, why a new user would come in here and want to change stuff "for the better", but many many long-time users like the game the way it is now and don't really care for any drastic changes, especially something like this that will completely undermine actions that users have taken in the past.

 

(emphasis mine) I think this is really key! If the wilderness had been accessible to adopt (or tame or otherwise be able to breed) the dragons found there from the very beginning it would not be so objectionable. But as many players have already stated, a lot of the dragons that were released to the wilderness were released for the express purpose of preventing them from ever being bred, for whatever reason the owner may have had. To suddenly change that mechanic and allow breeding of those dragons by other users is really, really upsetting the apple cart!

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Marie19R said:

 

I understand, to a certain extent, why a new user would come in here and want to change stuff "for the better", but many many long-time users like the game the way it is now and don't really care for any drastic changes, especially something like this that will completely undermine actions that users have taken in the past.

 

This. One of the WONDERFUL things about DC is that it is quiet and relaxing. Too much in life is frenzied activity. With DC you can leave it a few days and things will be fine; you can have a mad bout of breeding; you can plan - but always at your own pace. It's soothing. That's exactly why I play it rather than all the other gottadoitnow games out there.

 

I HATE this idea, never mind that I would kill rather than release if it started up. You want extra dragons - you can trade for them. You want more action - play a more action-packed game. DC is different - that's why it's special.

 

As for backlash about money - too right. But one thing TJ has always said and which I think even he won't mind being quoted as "TJ says" is that it will ALWAYS be free, so that no-one will ever be disadvantaged by others being able to buy stuff they can't. So that really is a non-starter.

 

And by the way:

Quote

I've found many CB vamps with no Children

Well yes. Vamps can't breed anyway, and a HUGE number of them were created when someone misclicked and bit in the hope of getting a repulse. No surprise there. Vamps are dead easy to get. Why bother trawling the wilderness for them. You want one - PM me and you shall have one.

[Sazandora]

Well. I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure what's the point of having Wilderness to begin with. I guess it's for lore reasons or something. Whatever.

But I do not agree with this suggestion. Wilderness is fine as it is, even if I'm wondering what purpose it has -- well, other than housing dragons released by users. One thing I DO agree with is, however, that DC could use some optional minigames, something in the vein of the old holiday minigames, like Mana Alchemy. No, I will never shut up about it until it's added back into the game. >:(