holiday raffles

[Paradisiske]

this was suggested by tca in the discord and i thought it was a really good idea.

 

so basically the raffles for the holiday months will have a honorable mention pool where people who get honorable mention can pick a cb holiday egg from that holiday month.

 

like halloween month honorable mention gets you a cb halloween egg of your choice

[TCA]

I was just speculating that it'd be a neat way to make past holiday CBs obtainable in a way that utilizes existing game mechanics.

 

It would be neat though.

[Imzadi]

Actually I do like this, although I'd also like to see them in the store if we ever get that.

[purplehaze]

Would this allow more than 2 CBs of Valentine and Christmas? If you won honorable mention, but already had two CBs of all the breeds for that holiday, what options would you have? I doubt it would be a problem for Christmas because there are not many (if any) with two CB Hollies, but there are potentially quite a few who have 2 CBs of all the Valentine breeds.

[Paradisiske]

i would like if it would go past the 2 cb holiday limit but its not necessary 

[Obscure_Trash]

While I'm not against this, I think non-automated (and three yearly raffles might be hard to automate?) raffles are time consuming and more difficult due to this, so something that can work in a more automatic manner so that users can just use it without TJ having to sit there making sure the raffle runs smoothly every time might work better. If it is something that can work automatically like the monthly raffles, then that sounds like a better deal.

 

But then the decision is, how 'rare' are cb holidays meant to be and how many do you give out?

[Fiona]

If this is something TJ can just add to the automated monthly raffles then I'd be in favor, though I think the 2cb per rule should still apply to Christmas and Valentines dragons. The chance of a win should be in addition to ones chance of winning the tinsel or shimmer, so no one will feel as though "I coulda won a prize dragon but all I got was this holiday!"

 

It doesn't seem to me as though any holiday dragons should be considered rare as everyone who was around for that holiday was able to have as many as the limits and their catching or trading abilities could supply. I don't see a problem with a large number of holiday dragons given out this way. If it could be completely automated so TJ basically has to do nothing once it's coded then theoretically I don't see an issue with several hundred each holiday.

[olympe]

Support from me, too. It would solve the issue of getting old holidays back in circulation.

Whether this works in an automated way or not should be up to TJ. He's the guy who'll have to code it that way.

However, I think that the 2 CB limit (1 CB for hollies, if I remember correctly) should stay in place. I'm also not sure whether we should have a cap for Halloweens or make it some kind of requirement to not have more than X CBs in order to participate in a raffle that might give you more of those. But, once again, I'd rather leave these details to TJ.

[TCA]

Limits would overcomplicate things. Why not just let people get extra CB holiday dragons if they're lucky?

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm with Fi and olympe; I'd rather the limit stay at 2. If it goes up to 4 per, then that would change things, but not until.

 

It doesn't complicate anything - if you ask for a dragin that you can't have, yu won't get it,. Simples. (That applied in the days of HM hollies, too. No problems as far as I know.)

[Jazeki]

I support this. If there are to be limits, they should be the same ones in place for V-day and Christmas. The Halloween ones could stay unlimited. But I don't mind if there aren't any. 

 

Edit: I also agree that it should be a raffle that is separate from the prize raffles. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Jazeki

[TCA]

2 hours ago, fuzzbucket said:

I'm with Fi and olympe; I'd rather the limit stay at 2. If it goes up to 4 per, then that would change things, but not until.

 

It doesn't complicate anything - if you ask for a dragin that you can't have, yu won't get it,. Simples. (That applied in the days of HM hollies, too. No problems as far as I know.)

See, whether that's simple or not depends on whether the CB limits actually distinguish between CBs and bred dragons. What do I mean by that? Well, you used to be limited to 2 of any individual Vday breed, right? It's possible that the current limits on collecting more CBs is just... that, in effect until sometime before the next breeding period. If that's the case, then that would make adding a distinction more complicated than it needs to be. (If the limits already distinguish between CBs and bred dragons, that's obviously irrelevant.)

 

But it's overcomplicating it for a non-mechanics reason, too. Like... so what if someone wins and already has CB Sweetlings, but wants another one for lineages or because they really like them? Is that really a problem? If someone wins "a CB past holiday/vday/halloween dragon", why limit them to ones they don't already have two of? As I understand it, the spirit of the breed limit is so that there's plenty for everyone to share the joy/love, but... if someone wins a holiday raffle, they should get to pick what's gonna make them happy, not be arbitrarily blocked from it just because they already have a couple. With the new prize raffles, people aren't blocked from entering because they already have a CB prize, why start telling people what they can and can't win if holidays are added? 

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by TCA

[birdzgoboom]

*rubs chin* applying the 2-CB-limit to a raffle also raises another issue: what if the winner already has two of each existing holiday dragon for that particular holiday? Then what? They just can't get a prize because "Well you already have two of each of the past ones"? I don't know how I feel about people being barred out of participating simply because they, well, may have been around long enough to have all the CBs they're technically allowed to have with the current limitations. Seems to be a bit unfortunate to those (however few it may be) that have been so dedicated/loyal all these years!

 

For my opinion on the existence of a raffle for past holidays, though. I would love this raffle because darn it I want a CB Holly so bad. ;( Hollies are too cute.

[Fiona]

1 hour ago, TCA said:

Like... so what if someone wins and already has CB Sweetlings, but wants another one for lineages or because they really like them? Is that really a problem? If someone wins "a CB past holiday/vday/halloween dragon", why limit them to ones they don't already have two of? As I understand it, the spirit of the breed limit is so that there's plenty for everyone to share the joy/love, but... if someone wins a holiday raffle, they should get to pick what's gonna make them happy, not be arbitrarily blocked from it just because they already have a couple. With the new prize raffles, people aren't blocked from entering because they already have a CB prize, why start telling people what they can and can't win if holidays are added? 

 

I hadn't thought about it from that angle. Realistically, no one is going to win every holiday, or even every year. So, no one is going to get a bunch of anything. It probably shouldn't be an issue if someone has an "extra" CB whatever.

 

I was assuming that say, me, for example: if I got a Valentines win, I'd pick a Val '09 because I only have one, and then I'd be done. No more Valentines raffles for me. It would make everyone else's odds of winning a fraction higher, considering there'd be one less person entering. But I guess there's not a pressing reason to limit it to 2 cb of each, unless TJ comes in and says there is. (coding or whatever)

 

Though, one of the arguments for finding a way to release more CB of each holiday is the number of older users who no longer play, so the thinking is to get new CB into the hands of players who weren't here when that breed was released. Retaining the limit clearly supports that goal whereas just opening it up for anyone to get as many of whatever as they're lucky enough to get is less about that stated goal and more about "we wants moar pretties"

Edited July 21, 2017 by Fiona BlueFire

[Fuzzbucket]

11 hours ago, Fiona BlueFire said:

I was assuming that say, me, for example: if I got a Valentines win, I'd pick a Val '09 because I only have one, and then I'd be done. No more Valentines raffles for me. It would make everyone else's odds of winning a fraction higher, considering there'd be one less person entering. But I guess there's not a pressing reason to limit it to 2 cb of each, unless TJ comes in and says there is. (coding or whatever)

 

Though, one of the arguments for finding a way to release more CB of each holiday is the number of older users who no longer play, so the thinking is to get new CB into the hands of players who weren't here when that breed was released. Retaining the limit clearly supports that goal whereas just opening it up for anyone to get as many of whatever as they're lucky enough to get is less about that stated goal and more about "we wants moar pretties"

 

This, exactly. I wouldn't be eligible for very many, either - my first was Val 10, and as I didn't know much them AND there was the glitch, I only got one CB. As long as more CBs come into being through people who play and don't have them, that will do for me. I am tired of the moah pretties approach to life.

 

Worst case scenario ANYONE can go for extra CB hallowe'ens (looks longingly at punkins...)

[cyradis4]

13 hours ago, TCA said:

See, whether that's simple or not depends on whether the CB limits actually distinguish between CBs and bred dragons. What do I mean by that? Well, you used to be limited to 2 of any individual Vday breed, right? It's possible that the current limits on collecting more CBs is just... that, in effect until sometime before the next breeding period. If that's the case, then that would make adding a distinction more complicated than it needs to be. (If the limits already distinguish between CBs and bred dragons, that's obviously irrelevant.)

 

But it's overcomplicating it for a non-mechanics reason, too. Like... so what if someone wins and already has CB Sweetlings, but wants another one for lineages or because they really like them? Is that really a problem? If someone wins "a CB past holiday/vday/halloween dragon", why limit them to ones they don't already have two of? As I understand it, the spirit of the breed limit is so that there's plenty for everyone to share the joy/love, but... if someone wins a holiday raffle, they should get to pick what's gonna make them happy, not be arbitrarily blocked from it just because they already have a couple. With the new prize raffles, people aren't blocked from entering because they already have a CB prize, why start telling people what they can and can't win if holidays are added? 

 

 

That may have been the spirit of the limit, but in fact.... the limit strongly *discourages* sharing. I breed my CB Halloweens basically on-ask, for free. I will not do the same for my Christmas and Valentines dragons. The limits in those cases caused stinginess. 

 

Also, your point about the new raffles not limiting past winners from entering reads as false: it suggests the old raffle had such a limit against repeat winners, and it most emphatically did not. I know of several winners in different years. In fact, I have a 2nd gen Prize egg from one such. Also, it still adhered to Holiday limits for HMs: so if you had 2 CB Rosebuds, you couldn't get a 3rd CB Rosebud. 

 

Also, the limits do distinguish between bred and CB: the gen counter. 

 

As for the reason you limit it to current limits, that's simplicity itself. A large part of the problems with the initial raffle was that while some were getting multiple prizes, the vast majority were getting squat (also the total number of prizes vs the total userbase size was a major problem). How would you feel, if someone won 6 CB Hollies while you still had zero? Probably not very good, since Holidays were meant for everyone. Before you say "that won't happen", look at my point about the original raffles. The odds of one person winning one in two different years should have been astronomical. More than one person before the 600? Laughable. Yet it happened. So when looking at ideas like this, you have to take into account the extremes. 

 

So, IF a raffle were to be enacted for old Holidays, I think existing limits, of all sorts, must be adhered to strictly. So Halloweens not limited, CB Val and CB Holidays limited to 2. 

 

Having said that, I am dead set against having old Holidays released via raffle. I still remember the hell of the original Holiday raffles all too well and I don't want to see the same thing happen to Holidays / Hollies (because be truthful, those are the ones people will focus on). 

 

While I strongly support a store, or several other release methods for old Holidays (I'd love to see more of them), I think a raffle is very much the wrong way to do it.

 

Cheers!
C4. 

[DragonLady86]

57 minutes ago, cyradis4 said:

 

Also, your point about the new raffles not limiting past winners from entering reads as false: it suggests the old raffle had such a limit against repeat winners, and it most emphatically did not. I know of several winners in different years. In fact, I have a 2nd gen Prize egg from one such. Also, it still adhered to Holiday limits for HMs: so if you had 2 CB Rosebuds, you couldn't get a 3rd CB Rosebud. 

 

Also, the limits do distinguish between bred and CB: the gen counter. 

 

As for the reason you limit it to current limits, that's simplicity itself. A large part of the problems with the initial raffle was that while some were getting multiple prizes, the vast majority were getting squat (also the total number of prizes vs the total userbase size was a major problem). How would you feel, if someone won 6 CB Hollies while you still had zero? Probably not very good, since Holidays were meant for everyone. Before you say "that won't happen", look at my point about the original raffles. The odds of one person winning one in two different years should have been astronomical. More than one person before the 600? Laughable. Yet it happened. So when looking at ideas like this, you have to take into account the extremes. 

 

 

When HMs were part of the raffle, the 2 per limit had not yet been lifted.  (Also Rosebuds could never be asked for because only Christmas breeds were allowed.)  And, the gen counter is great, but I'm pretty sure TJ has stated that the cave does NOT distinguish between CB and lineage which is why holidays are removed from the limit list now.  Once the limit is lifted for that breed you can pick up as many as you want, which would include new CBs.  Also, what TWO users, actually won twice with the old Christmas raffles, that's not really a lot.  It's also called RNG, it happens. 

 

Personally, anything that adds more CBs to the pool for people to breed is a good thing.  Half my cbs are frozen because at the time we could only have the two.  I know I've had to turn down offers from people for Sweetling lineages because I can't continue them.  I have one and he's spoken for for the foreseeable future.  Though, I'd be most interested in Halloweens myself.  I only keep a single pair of each of those, but the Black Marrows are one of my favorite sprites and I wouldn't mind the chance for more of them. 

[Sazandora]

Meh. I think the non-Halloween limits should stay at 2 CBs, makes them far easier to catch. I've got a pretty decent internet and a pretty decent reaction time, but I'd rather take my time catching the new eggs than just blindly rush in and hope to God I get SOMETHING, before the biomes are emptied by people who are far faster than me. Its disheartening.

Some players do have CBs of all the Holidays, I myself only missing Hollies, Yules, Sweetlings and the first Valentines (and Pumpkins and Marrows if we count Halloween), but I'm not upset about it. Sure I'd love CB Hollies, but the others? Nah, I don't care about them all that much.

So I think we'd eventually run out of people who would be eligible to win CB Holidays from a raffle, making it pointless in the long run.

 

Okay, I guess we could bump the limit up to 4 -- catch two CBs during the event and... maybe get two more from the raffle? But that'd just be unnecessarily complicated, wouldn't it?

Two CBs per account is just fine by me. Doubly so when the new Holidays are one-gender only.

[DragonLady86]

The suggestion wasn't to remove the limits on New caveborns.  But if the system doesn't recognize the difference between caveborn and bred then there is NO way to limit prize raffles.  because the limits have already been removed for the older breeds.

[cyradis4]

18 minutes ago, DragonLady86 said:

The suggestion wasn't to remove the limits on New caveborns.  But if the system doesn't recognize the difference between caveborn and bred then there is NO way to limit prize raffles.  because the limits have already been removed for the older breeds.

 

1. The comment TJ made was from BEFORE they counted generations, and was in reference to the ratios. Specifically, about there being "bred ratios" and "CB ratios". I do remember the comment. And it was many years ago. 

2. The fact that there is a gen tracker at all means the system can *now* ID *all* dragons generation, meaning it can ID what dragons are CB... whether or not that data is being used at the moment. 

 

And we can't say that the limits were removed from the older breeds. Its entirely possible that TJ has the limits keyed on "CB" because.... see comment 2 above. The fact that there is now a gen tracker means that the system can recognize CBs, regardless on if its using that info in the ratios. 

 

Whenever someone says "TJ said", my first reaction is "show us the post" because 9 times out of 10, its been taken out of context. TJ rarely makes posts that stand on their own, they almost always have to be looked at in context of the conversation in question. And you've taken the post by TJ out of context. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

[olympe]

1 hour ago, cyradis4 said:

 

1. The comment TJ made was from BEFORE they counted generations, and was in reference to the ratios. Specifically, about there being "bred ratios" and "CB ratios". I do remember the comment. And it was many years ago. 

 

However, that does NOT mean that the system recognizes the difference between CB and bred eggs. It merely means that there are separate ratios for what is generated in the cave/biomes, and what odds are for certain breeding results.

 

However, why don't we leave this for TJ to figure out? After all, he is the one and only expert on the coding of DC.

 

So, if the system has no way to count how many CBs of a given breed a user has, then maybe "no limits" for holiday raffle prizes might be the way to go. However, if the system does distinguish between CB and non-CB - which it could by simply checking for the location given on the dragon's view page - then keeping current limits in place would be the better way to go, I think. (And I'm saying this as someone who couldn't hope to win more than 6 non-Halloween CB holidays.

 

And, although I still think that raffles are far from perfect (due to RNG issues), they're one way to get old CB holidays back into circulation by using mechanics that are (mostly) already there. Hopefully, that means that TJ would be more likely to actually make it happen because it's less work than implementing a whole new system (shop) or dealing with endless drama due to uncommon-to-rare holiday re-releases.

[TCA]

But by enforcing the catching limits, you'd still bar people from participating in the Xmas and Vday raffles if they were around for every holiday release. Even if they really, really want another Rosebud because they like them, nope, they have two CBs of every Vday dragon so they can't enter and get another Rosebud. I'll admit I'd be like "okay, really?" if someone won a CB Holly every year, but you know what? I'd rather that happen, and have people be able to pick what they want from the raffles, than actively block people from getting nice things if they were to happen to win. Why is it a problem if someone who already has all the Christmas breeds gets an extra Holly if they're lucky enough to win? All that means is another breeding CB is out there, and it's probably still not yours.

Edited July 21, 2017 by TCA

[cyradis4]

2 minutes ago, TCA said:

But by enforcing the catching limits, you'd still bar people from participating in the Xmas and Vday raffles if they were around for every holiday release. Even if they really, really want another Rosebud because they like them, nope, they have two CBs of every Vday dragon so they can't enter and get another Rosebud. I'll admit I'd be like "okay, really?" if someone won a CB Holly every year, but you know what? I'd rather that happen, and have people be able to pick what they want from the raffles, than actively block people from getting nice things if they were to happen to win. Why is it a problem if someone who already has all the Christmas breeds gets an extra Holly if they're lucky enough to win? All that means is another breeding CB is out there, and it's probably still not yours.

 

 

My problem isn't with letting people have extra pretties, its with how letting one person win 6 CB Hollies while most others still have 0 flies in the face of the spirit of the original limits. The Valentines and Christmas limits were there so everyone could get some, to spread it out as much as possible. The ideal, it seemed to me, was for everyone to get two. If you respect that limit, then given enough time every player will end up with 2 CBs of every Christmas and Valentines, helping the initial desire come to fruition. Yes, older users (such as myself, who has CBs of almost every Holiday already) would get very little in comparison to a new user. 

 

If there were come controls cranked in, to make sure that there *aren't* repeat winners, then I wouldn't care about the limits, because the love would still spread out (1 win per user means no one can end up winning 6 times). But there aren't such controls in place, and given the results from the Prize Raffles, its pretty clear that the RNG likes to "clump" winners. So using the current system, the only way I can see to make sure the love does spread, and doesn't clump with a lucky few users, is to respect the limits which were put in place for that exact reason: to ensure that the eggs spread around. 

 

As for if the limits as they stand are valid? Well, that I won't talk to much in this thread, but my view for such is pretty extensive in the thread for that. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

[KrazyKarp]

No, please no. Raffles are a messy and inconvenient way of doing things. The only reason why I'm not fighting the raffles for Tinsels and Shimmerscales is because that's how they've always been handed out; really, I don't think raffles ever should have been a thing. They're worse than when sites have adoptables only available as parentless by donating real money. Trader's Canyon or rereleasing holidays in biomes are much, much, much better ways of doing this. That way, everyone can get CB holidays from past years that they may have missed, rather than leaving everything up to luck.

[11th]

I can see this working out okay for Valentine's and Halloween, but I do have a concern regarding Holiday (i.e. Christmas) dragons. How would Solstice and Mistletoe be handled? (Assuming that anyone takes one instead of a Holly.) I can understand Hollies being influenceable, given that we already have some females floating around, but introducing blue CB Solstice and male CB Mistletoe this way might get messy.

Edited July 22, 2017 by 11th