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Laura-Borealis

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You would take away ALL options to remove something that isn't a necessity. There isn't a "what race are you?" option, there isn't a "what class are you" option, there isn't a"republican or democrat" option, not an "are you a feminist?"option there shouldn't be a gender option. None of these options matter or are relevant to dragon cave.

 

 

It also wouldn't be forcing anyone into a closet, you would only be doing that if the only options were male and female which NO ONE is asking for.

This. Some of my best friends really ARE of a variety of genders; I am only bigot-phobic, myself.

 

Also I have a friend who has DPD and AFAIK isn't the same gender every day - and it isn't as if they can choose who they are this morning. I have NO idea what could cover that.

 

And thanks for the article link.

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there are so many things you could remove from this forum because they're not essential to DC and could cause conflict--you could knock out the whole General Discussion section, avatars, roleplay, etc.--and, yes, gender.

 

the gender feature makes it easier to refer to people by their preferred pronouns, and for the most part the option itself does NOT cause conflict--have you seen anyone here harassed for a little non-gender-specific circle under their name? Because that's all the suggestion is talking about. The vast majority of gender-related conflict on these forums comes from threads like these, and the other gender-focused threads, NOT from the gender options on the profile.

 

We already have genders that fall under non-binary as options, and we are fine. This would just be a way to include most everyone else.

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Let's please not start a slippery slope argument. This suggestion was very clear in "let's please just add two or three more umbrella terms" and that's literally it.

Thank you Sock, I appreciate you trying to keep this on track.

 

Pardon my delayed response (I've been battling with a migraine for a couple days).

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As you'd be the one creating the topic, it's if you want.

 

 

~

 

I want to be more clear about what I'm trying to say: don't forget that when you're discussing this? you're discussing real people who exist right here on the forum. For some of you, this discussion is just about inclusion and being fair - but for others of us, this is a very personal discussion. Please just try and keep that in mind.

 

As a side note to the pronoun discussion, I want to say: no, gender does not always clearly correlate with pronoun usage. And, unfortunately, adding a pronoun field to the profile likely falls under "modifying forum software" which isn't viable at this time - but will be viable to suggest if/when the forum ever upgrades to more recent software. So this suggestion isn't about pronouns. It's about gender. And personally? I didn't add my gender (which I did pick an umbrella term for and am perfectly happy with doing so) for anybody else. I didn't add it so that you could know my pronouns (which I had in my sig for a while, but took out when I was still getting PMs calling me "mr"). I added it because it's been very hard for me personally to realize I was nonbinary. It was harder still to accept it. And it's been the hardest to figure out if I actually even have an identity I can pin down. Me picking my gender was a celebration of finally being able to accept I'm not still the gender I always thought I was for more than 20 years of my life. Seeing that little symbol? It's personal. It's validating. It's just for me. Which is why I support adding a few more umbrella terms, as long as there are appropriate symbols and TJ can customize the text. The umbrella terms I would like to see: genderfluid, nonbinary, and other.

Thank you for this, also. It is always heartening to read the stories of others who've gone through the same realizations smile.gif

 

It was hard for me to realize I was nonbinary, too. Like most people, for the first chunk of my life I didn't even question my gender. I just knew I didn't fit like other people seemed to. I didn't want to be a boy (except when I wanted to pee in the woods wink.gif ) but I didn't feel like a girl either. Even after I learned more about gender and how it's a social construct, defined differently in different cultures, etc. it took me a long time to realize. Once I figured it out, it was such a relief. It has made a HUGE difference to my mental health. So when social media sites offer more choices, it's validating and makes me happy. It's a little positive thing that doesn't hurt anyone and really helps some of us.

 

I am cool with the terms you listed, also. That covers it well enough for me.

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This.

 

Gosh, some of you people are worse than the "colourblind" people in discussions of racism!

 

Gender identity may not matter to you, but that's often the case with cisgender people (ie, people whose gender matches the one they were assigned at birth). We don't consider our gender to be important until we stop and examine it. It matters a great deal to those who have struggled with it, and even I, a cis girl, would be upset if someone called me "he" and refused to change when corrected, because it "wasn't a big deal" or "too difficult to understand" or whatever excuse serial misgender-ers use these days.

 

 

 

Writing that you don't care about someone's gender (with grammatically-incorrect periods for emphasis, no less) can be incredibly hurtful! And as far as I'm concerned, gender is relevant, because unfortunately in the english language, there is no way to refer to someone in the third person without using pronouns which have a gender connotation (including the concept of 'neutral' gender expressed by 'they', since that's distinct from the 'inhuman' connotation of 'it'). You might not need to understand precisely what the language used means to the person using it, but acknowledging it, allowing a person to self-label, and using correct pronouns, are just basic common decency. And if you're going to consider someone a friend, then why wouldn't you want to learn about the way someone identifies themself? Do you also tell your bisexual friends "I don't care that you're bisexual and I never want you to mention it to me"?

 

 

 

Did you read the part in the second article where Dr Airton called him out on indulging in "slippery slope fallacies"?

 

I'm in the camp that thinks pronouns would be the best thing, but since that doesn't seem to be possible according to Sock, we definitely, at the very least, need an 'other' option, and I would support umbrella terms like 'nonbinary' and 'genderqueer', and a few more specific terms like 'trans male', 'agender', 'bigender', 'two-spirit'... although perhaps it would be best not to include those if it would upset the "your gender is too hard to understand" crowd.

 

(I would argue that the current "male" and "female" options be removed and replaced with "cisgender (fe)male" and "transgender (fe)male" tbh, to force people to actually go out and learn a bit about diversity in gender, but I wouldn't want to force binary trans people to out themselves like that...)

 

PS: Btw, fuzzbucket, I tracked down some of your old posts in the sexuality thread... I don't suppose you've heard the term 'demisexual'? I'm not 100% sure, since it's not a word that applies to me, but you gave an almost textbook description of someone who knows that they're demi, but hasn't encountered the word.

I just wanted to say thank you for your supportive words. I really appreciate it. wub.gif

 

I agree with you that someone who doesn't understand can still be respectful. You don't have to fully understand something to simply accept another's preference. You don't have to research the differences between various gender identities to acknowledge that they exist. It's no different really from accepting that someone has a different religion than you. You don't have to read the Koran or study sutras, just treat others decently like you would anyone else.

 

 

As far as pronouns go -- I'd suggest those who are keen on adding a field for them start their own topic. Especially since that will probably require modifying the forum software.

Edited by Laura-Borealis

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Just some thoughts...

 

I don't think personal opinions on whether a person cares about knowing another person's gender, sexual orientation, or preferred pronouns is relevant to this suggestion.

 

Thank you - I could not agree more.

 

Whether they want to know or not is irrelevant to the issue. I can't imagine that seeing a tiny symbol or a word in a profile is that profoundly disquieting. If it is - I'm sorry but that's their baggage not mine.

 

If it makes a person feel happy to declare their gender identity in their profile, I think they should be entitled to do so. It's a personal choice. It matters to some. Isn't that what is truly important here?

 

Thus, if it is possible to add in to the forums, I personally do not see a huge issue adding in a couple more gender options for people to choose from. Including more choices won't drastically change how anyone plays dragoncave or spends their time on the forum or really anything else in the internet realm; but to those who wish to identify as something other than what is currently available, it could mean the world.

 

thumbs_up.png

 

 

ETA - a big thank you to everyone who's chipped in with support - I can't reply to everyone but I really appreciate it. And those who oppose or have reservations, I acknowledge your point of view even if I disagree.

Edited by Laura-Borealis

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[snip]Is an "other" option important? I'm not sure how people would feel about choosing "other", kind of how "genderless" feels strange.[snip]

I would choose "other", it if were added. To me it just means that none of the other terms apply... nothing strange about it. Is that just me? huh.gif

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It's not just you. Though I can understand "other" sounding strange to some folks, I think it's important, because we can't include everyone (we don't have room for 70+ choices like Facebook has) -- and some may actually prefer it.

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I'm not completely against adding and/or changing some gender choices, but I'm completely against adding dozens. Keep it simple, please.

 

Which is why I want to know how many choices are needed.

For example, do we need transmale and transfemale, respectively, because it's the 'trans' part that's important to you, or would the people affected be just as happy with just male and female?

 

And how many "other" genders do we actually need? Is non-binary enough? If not, what else would we need?

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Would non-binary be OK with trans people ? And I also rather feel that transmale and transfemale could be replaced with trans ?

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i would support:

 

Male

Female

Non-Binary

Other

 

and would not oppose keeping the current "Genderless" and "Transgender" options (though, personally, i would prefer to see transgender go).

 

"transgender" alone does not specify what gender you are, or what pronouns you would like to use, and i would think that would be important to someone who had to get past coming out and switching pronouns. personally cannot see why a transgender person would choose to identify as a non-gender-specific "transgender" rather than just "male" or "female". being trans is about identifying as male or female, isn't it?

 

i would like to do away with transgender options altogether since IMO needing to specify whether you are cis- or trans- is unnecessary. if you are cis and identify as male, you are male. if you are trans and identify as male, you are male. don't see why birth sex needs to be identified along with it.

because i think in part a big role of the gender option is being able to use correct pronouns, and the "transgender" option is ambiguous, etcc.. i do not see the use of it.

 

anyway that is a bit tangetical--i would like to see "Non-Binary" and "Other" added, especially N-B, and i am okay with keeping all of the other current options.

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personally cannot see why a transgender person would choose to identify as a non-gender-specific "transgender" rather than just "male" or "female". being trans is about identifying as male or female, isn't it?

 

i would like to do away with transgender options altogether since IMO needing to specify whether you are cis- or trans- is unnecessary. if you are cis and identify as male, you are male. if you are trans and identify as male, you are male. don't see why birth sex needs to be identified along with it.

because i think in part a big role of the gender option is being able to use correct pronouns, and the "transgender" option is ambiguous, etcc.. i do not see the use of it.

I believe some transgender people can't actually say comfortably what gender they fully identify with while they are, perhaps, actually transitioning - it might well not feel right when they are physically changing. I would like to think a simple trans covered that problem too ?

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I only know one trans person personally, but she most definitely feels female and prefers to be addressed as such, even though she just started the transition. To be accurate, she already preferred female pronouns before starting said transition, so... *shrugs* But she's only one out of a whole lot of trans people, so who knows how others feel.

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I am actually learning a lot by reading this thread. To me, gender identification is not important, but I am beginning to see why it might be important to some. I still am not in favor of a huge long laundry-list of choices, but if there are a few extras that people can agree pretty much cover the bases, then I wouldn't object. I will still probably ignore them anyway.

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I would choose "other", it if were added. To me it just means that none of the other terms apply... nothing strange about it. Is that just me? huh.gif

Thanks for responding. That's why I phrased it as a question, rather than a statement that an "other" option isn't a good idea. I honestly didn't know how the people who might use an "other" option would feel. But I've heard enough about how being seen as an "other" can be bad that it felt odd to me.

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Rather than having two billion different options added, I'd rather we just be provided with a blank space to type in gender and pronouns as we wanted, or not at all. That would make things easier for everyone. Because no matter whether a hundred different options were added in the menu, there would always be someone who was not included.

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To be honest, I think non-binary is an important gender to have on the site, seeing as many people identify as non-binary. NB isn't genderless, nor is it helpful to an NB person to choose not telling. Personally, I think that'd be a helpful installation to this site.

 

Regarding transgender, having the option just be 'transgender' doesn't really help - it doesn't specify what pronouns you would prefer to be called. However, some trans people are proud and open about the fact they are trans, and it provides more exposure and normalisation to the fact that they exist. I think it'd be helpful to specify 'trans-male' and 'trans-female' in replacement of 'transgender' because then people would know which pronouns to refer to them by.

 

Adding these options, I'm sure, would make many people on the site more comfortable, and would make it easier for other users to refer to them using the correct pronouns. It wouldn't be 'adding dozens', and would be easy to read. I'd be really happy and excited to see these added to the site.

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Regarding transgender, having the option just be 'transgender' doesn't really help - it doesn't specify what pronouns you would prefer to be called. However, some trans people are proud and open about the fact they are trans, and it provides more exposure and normalisation to the fact that they exist. I think it'd be helpful to specify 'trans-male' and 'trans-female' in replacement of 'transgender' because then people would know which pronouns to refer to them by.

I agree with this strongly. When I was looking at the options I was a little miffed that "Transgender" was an option-- Transgender isn't a gender. It's just sort of a marker indicating there was a transition and the person wants it to be known that they transitioned.

This option doesn't say MtF or FtM and that's not really acceptable to me. :u

 

TBH if someone wants specific pronouns, they should add it to their signature.

I personally, have been called she, he, and them and it all is very equal to me. But for people who have a strong preference, putting it in your signature is the way to go. Especially with very specific or uncommon pronouns.

Edited by irrelevantindigo

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