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Laura-Borealis

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I would like to point to this article from the Williams institute of law concerning "Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults" findings by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and National Center for Transgender Equality.

 

On page 6 it has a table(2) looking mainly at the part labeled "Strength of Identification with Listed Identities" with the exception of transgender/sexual most of those who are gender non-conforming do not care all that much about their label or care at all. Second I would like to point out table 8 on page 9 "Lifetime suicide attempts by disclosure of

transgender/gender non-conforming status" which shows those who don't say how they identify have a suicide attempt rate of 33% where as those who do share there gender identity with everyone have a rate of 50%

Is this study about gender symbol selection on a forum?

 

Does it say anything about the differences in misgendering due to being closeted vs malicious misgendering when you're out?

Does it say anything about the increased amount of transphobia/cissexism a person who's out is facing? How personal it is? How personal it feels?

Does it say anything about how you can distance (dissociate, as it were) yourself from transphobia a bit when you're not out and no one knows?

Does it say anything about the difference in suicidal urges or attempts in out trans/nb people who have an accepting support circle vs those who do not?

Does it say how big a part not being able to come out has to do with the suicide rate in those who weren't out?

Does it say how big a part coming out vs not being accepted is in the suicide rate of those who were out?

Like, what is the explanation behind these differences? And is supporting keeping people in the closet the answer or is pushing for acceptance the answer?

(Note: no, I didn't read the article. I'm off to bed soon.)

 

Because, as a nonbinary person who supports more options, who has selected an option, who is posting in the company of other nonbinary people who support adding options, I cannot really see how this study is that relevant to what we are asking here. Context behind those stats is important.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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Snip

I perused the whole article and the focus for stressors seemed to be mostly centered around real-world concerns: treatment at home, work or school; income status; disease; educational status ; and age. It also tied these stressors with race, sexual orientation, the ability for others to tell that they are or are not outed, and disclosure to people with whom they interact on a regular basis--teachers, co-workers, family, and friends, etc.

 

There seems to be no direct correlation between the data and virtual interaction on a forum.

 

Edit for grammar and another important stressor.

Edited by Jazeki

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Context behind those stats is important.

Yes I agree that's why I wanted to include the article so people could look into it and draw their own conclusions. I don't want anyone to decide anything just because I say so.

 

I didn't mean for this to be taken as gospel that was never my intention.

 

Is this study about gender symbol selection on a forum?

Of course not. However In table 9 on page 9 " Lifetime suicide attempts by being “out” in various settings" It has a section for "in private social settings" (which I think the internet qualifies as) and those who are not out have a suicide attempt rate of 37% and those who are out have 41%.

 

I'm pointing out this article to show reasons why I think it might be a better idea to not have any symbols and not include gender what so ever.

 

I also decided to use it since suicide rates came up earlier in this topic. Thought it would be a good article for those people to look at.

 

To answer some of you're other questions in one go, the article is mainly about percentages, it takes into account, age,race,education,income,relationship status, sexual orientation, gender assigned at birth,current identity,whether or not people can tell what gender they are, whether they tell people,who they tell,disabilities,diseases,if they were harassed and who harassed them, etc.

 

It does not specifically have a category for being misgendered, the main point I was getting at was it seemed when people knew what they identified as the general populous was much less understanding and would alienate them in some cases.

 

From experience I have found the internet to not be the most welcoming place at times, the anonymity of the internet allows some people to be very vicious. I just feel you can't trust every one on the internet to be polite and understanding. Maybe its different on forums, this is the first one I've been on and I've only recently started being social but I know from places like twitter people can be ruthless. From reading the article it looks like there are a lot of people who would not be accepting of those different from them to the point where maybe more anonymity would be a better way to go. I'm a better safe than sorry kind of person.

 

 

 

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Just some thoughts...

 

I don't think personal opinions on whether a person cares about knowing another person's gender, sexual orientation, or preferred pronouns is relevant to this suggestion.

 

If it makes a person feel happy to declare their gender identity in their profile, I think they should be entitled to do so. It's a personal choice. It matters to some. Isn't that what is truly important here?

 

Thus, if it is possible to add in to the forums, I personally do not see a huge issue adding in a couple more gender options for people to choose from. Including more choices won't drastically change how anyone plays dragoncave or spends their time on the forum or really anything else in the internet realm; but to those who wish to identify as something other than what is currently available, it could mean the world.

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Anyway mostly I would just like to know what pronouns to use. So if we can't get gender options for everybody, then I think replacing them with a "pronouns" field would be a good alternative.

I've thought about what I wrote earlier.

 

I'm a cis female and I never had to explain my gender to anyone, so this is just a thought that may or may not be correct from the perspective of people more affected by how society treats genders.

 

I would prefer a list of genders (and/or pronouns) to choose from over a "type your gender/pronouns here" field, and I would prefer that over "just write it in your profile text or signature".

 

Reason:

 

A list (e.g. dropdown menu, including "not telling") implemented in the forum says "yes, these genders exist, and so they are here". Of course it would need enough options so everybody could find one that applies to them.

 

An empty text entry field titled "gender" still says "there are several options and it may be important for people to put their gender in their profile", but then whatever someone writes there may be seen by other people as "made up" (because "lol I get it ur a snowflake lol lol"). (Not my opinion of course.)

 

Having to write it in a place not specifically designed for gender or pronouns might make it even more look like "person feels they are so special they have to shout their gender out to the world".

 

 

So to me, a list with whatever number of options seems to be the method most likely to help "not-male-or-female" genders become accepted as just normal.

If people don't care about telling their gender, they can always select "not telling". Or we might even get an "I think this is irrelevant" option.

 

 

- Oh, and I support the original suggestion of adding "non-binary" (and possibly more) to the choices.

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snip

i would interpret "private social settings" as meaning stuff closer to Facebook or Twitter, where the people who see that information will also have a presence in the person's real life, instead of sites where you are communicating exclusively with strangers. that's just my assumption, though. did it specify?

 

main point:

what do you think is more likely to draw negative attention: putting an obtrusive message in your signature/bio, or selecting a pre-existing choice that would be displayed as a small, relatively subtle icon underneath your avatar?

if the cause of those statistics is the amount of attention coming out gets, wouldn't it make more sense to allow people to come out without forcing them to emphasize their identity in a sig/bio? people are going to come out here, it's inevitable. so why not give them an easier option?

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From experience I have found the internet to not be the most welcoming place at times, the anonymity of the internet allows some people to be very vicious. I just feel you can't trust every one on the internet to be polite and understanding. Maybe its different on forums, this is the first one I've been on and I've only recently started being social but I know from places like twitter people can be ruthless. From reading the article it looks like there are a lot of people who would not be accepting of those different from them to the point where maybe more anonymity would be a better way to go. I'm a better safe than sorry kind of person.

The problems I've seen with gender identity has been on other forums, mostly. I've seen major harassment, witch hunts, and a wide variety of extremely nasty behavior, from BOTH sides, in a forum setting. Its much worst than what I've seen in real life, and THIS is the reason I don't want it on the forum.

 

People.... Online harassment in forum settings on forum games is something I've *seen*. There are games who's forums I will NOT go on for just this reason! Its extremely common, I would almost say rampant. And before you say it can't happen on THIS site..... I must point out that one of the sites I frequent (which is known for being vicious) has a ton of cross-over with Dragon Cave.

 

It can happen here, and I don't want to see it happen. I hate to see anyone on either side hurt, I hate seeing how nasty people can be.

 

Adding "non-binary" isn't going to change anything when we already have trans. But adding as many as we can? That'll make people think that its important to DC because the terms and symbols will be "official", and it will hurt those who don't want to see it / are confused by it (many of whom refuse to speak up for fear of harassment, see paragraph 2 and that other forum I mentioned), and the backlash can also hurt those who are not-binary.

 

I'd much prefer to see gender removed as an option to show. That way, if someone wants to show it they can put it in their profile or signature, where its totally *not* official.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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I'd much prefer to see gender removed as an option to show. That way, if someone wants to show it they can put it in their profile or signature, where its totally *not* official.

In my opinion that makes it more of a (potential) problem, because then the gender has to be explicitly stated in a place not normally meant for it, instead of casually being clicked in a dropdown menu and integrated in the forum design in a standardized way.

 

Just as ab613 said:

 

what do you think is more likely to draw negative attention: putting an obtrusive message in your signature/bio, or selecting a pre-existing choice that would be displayed as a small, relatively subtle icon underneath your avatar?

 

Not only does the signature/bio method make a bigger deal of the whole gender choice thing, it also forces people to make the decision to actively write something in their signature (which I think would make me feel anxious if I were a gender for which I had been mocked or attacked previously) instead of just using a forum feature (which would feel more safe for me).

 

 

Please note I'm talking about gender choice menu vs. writing it in sig/bio. I'm not sure what I think about removing everything gender-related completely.

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I rarely look at the bio section of a profile. So if people feel safer putting their info there, more power to them.

 

 

In older forum options, like Spring (which I use), the image only shows male and female. Until TJ updates the forum software, I won't be able to see what people's genders are under their avatars if they are not male or female. I'd also like to point that while having the image under the avatar is less obtrusive and choosing from a selection is less obtrusive than having it in a signature, it still calls gender to attention when it is deemed a concern--like when the user on the other page surmised that users who wanted a fill-in box all had identified as assumedly cis male/female because they have a visible gender symbol.

 

The fill in the blank would eliminate any symbols or the need to stick something in your bio or signature.

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Seriously, I still don't really see how much trouble gender identity can be.

 

And, before you tell me I'm a typical cis-person - I'm not. My biological sex is female, no kidding. But my personality is way more typical for males than for females. I love maths and natural sciences with a passion, and I cannot get far enough from any babies being shown around. (Certainly no "May I hold him/her?" from me!) This is also prevalent in my horoscope (3/4 of all planets in male houses) and my body (lots of evidence of a surplus of testosterone). Just for the heck of it, I just took an online gender test, the result of which is that I am, apparently, "casually masculine" (44% male, 28% female) And the only thing that surprised me here was that the numbers don't add up to 100%. (Go figure.)

 

However, all of that doesn't stop me from identifying as female, because that's what I am. Just with lots of masculine aspects, which I accepted a long time ago.

Edited by olympe

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The problems I've seen with gender identity has been on other forums, mostly. I've seen major harassment, witch hunts, and a wide variety of extremely nasty behavior, from BOTH sides, in a forum setting. Its much worst than what I've seen in real life, and THIS is the reason I don't want it on the forum.

 

People.... Online harassment in forum settings on forum games is something I've *seen*. There are games who's forums I will NOT go on for just this reason! Its extremely common, I would almost say rampant.

 

It can happen here, and I don't want to see it happen. I hate to see anyone on either side hurt, I hate seeing how nasty people can be.

<snip>

 

I'd much prefer to see gender removed as an option to show. That way, if someone wants to show it they can put it in their profile or signature, where its totally *not* official.

This. Harassment on line is a million times worse than IRL because you can hide behind your router and if all else fails pull the "hey I was KIDDING, it's so hard to indicate TONE on line..." mad.gif

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but removing gender from profiles isn't going to stop harassment. people already state their gender/pronouns in their signature and bio. removing gender as an option would just result in more of that--gender would still be present, and harassment would not be prevented.

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but removing gender from profiles isn't going to stop harassment. people already state their gender/pronouns in their signature and bio. removing gender as an option would just result in more of that--gender would still be present, and harassment would not be prevented.

The point of removing gender entirely in favor of fill in the blank or allowing people to put it in their sig/bio is not to prevent harassment (although surely no one is in favor of people harassing others with this suggestion). It's to allow people to properly identify their gender as they see fit without having to choose from a set list of options that are non-inclusive. If they still worry about harassment due to how they gender themselves, they can leave all areas blank.

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This. Harassment on line is a million times worse than IRL because you can hide behind your router and if all else fails pull the "hey I was KIDDING, it's so hard to indicate TONE on line..." mad.gif

The way we deal with harassment is to report it to mods so that we can take care of it. Not by forcing people into the closet if they don't want to be in the closet.

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I think that if bullying is going to happen it will happen wether it is a gender symbol displayed, a pronoun box, or even a mention in sig/profile saying "Hi I'm this and that". I don't see how adding more gender choices is going to start/aggravate it - we already have more than the 2 traditional male/female choices anyway, so that ship has sailed.

 

-

 

I am somewhere between androgynous and bigender. I honestly don't care much about which label fits me best, because I am confortable with myself and my life. I don't care about who people *think* I am, or which pronoun they use for me.

 

BUT it took me 20+ years to get to that point. Had I grown in a place and time where I had been given the option to actually ask myself questions about my gender (as it was, gender fluidity was pure sci-fi), I would have done so. And it would have helped, I think, to be able to state casually that I was non-binary.

 

Since the pronoun-box-thing can't happen with the actual forum software(1), I'd like the options "non binary" and "other" to be added. I also feel that the "transgender" option should be replaced with "transgender male" and "transgender female", and "genderless" should be replaced by "agender".

 

BTW, we can choose any avatar we want. Many have anime-related ones, I have a photo of my horse... how is that relevant to raising dragons? That's just what people do when joining a forum: choose a name, pick an avatar... indicate their gender. wink.gif

 

*hides in the shadows again*

 

(1) that's still the option I'd prefer, myself, because I fear it will be difficult (impossible?) to include everyone with pre-made gender choices. Although an "other" option would help.

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The way we deal with harassment is to report it to mods so that we can take care of it. Not by forcing people into the closet if they don't want to be in the closet.

When gender becomes an "official" part of a game, it makes it seem like the GAME thinks its important to the game, and that's where the problems come in. While I realize its very important to many of you, social change is hard on many others and it makes others extremely uncomfortable.

 

 

I will re-iterate, since you failed to understand my meaning:

Gender identity and sexual orientation is JUST like Politics and Religion: its polarizing, dividing, and can all too easily be used to create a very hostile atmosphere.

 

 

I've SEEN this! Just look at FlightRising, where its all but illegal to have ANY ideas or views that's not the absolutely most liberal. And GOD help you if you have an original thought! If I had posted there as I have here, I'd have been HAMMERED from ALL sides, including by mods and likely by Admins trying to "keep the peace"! How do you think that makes me feel? I'm actually very middle of the road, live and let live, in my views. How do you think it makes people who are of a more conservative upbringing? I will not go onto FR's forums, because they are a toxic waste dump filled with witch hunters.

 

Right now, for this forum, Real Life does not intrude in most of the forums. But I strongly fear that if changes start being made that promotes one view over others (such as adding a dozen gender identities to cover less than 5% of the population), it will send the message that "This is the Official Dragon Cave View on this Topic, Do Not Counter It".

 

Too many users on here have seen the flame-wars on FR, too many have seen what happens on Tumblr and other social media sites. Too many of us have seen what happens when the various social forces collide head on.

 

This site is about dragons and has a large international population, from a very wide variety of cultures. Do you have the right to make them feel uncomfortable and alienated because they have different views?

 

Cheers!

C4.

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That's very slippery slope. Adding one "non-binary" option to the profiles isn't going to really in a liberal revolution.

 

Gender is already a part of the forum--and, as evidenced by the posts in this thread, there are people who DO care and people who DON'T--and, as evidenced by the posts on this thread, for many people it does not affect their experience on the website.

 

So in all probability, adding a single option that most people won't pay attention to is not going to result in a drastic change in the forum attitude.

 

Either way, a side is going to be uncomfortable. But we already have two minority genders, genderless and transgender, as options--so I don't think adding a third, quite widely inclusive option should be a threat to anyone.

 

Letting people identify as non-binary is not isolating anyone else. It does not affect anyone except those who select the option.

 

How is it any different from the other gender options DCF already has?

 

Taking away the option will not make people care less, it will just make them display their gender in more obtrusive ways e.g. sig/profile.

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That's very slippery slope. Adding one "non-binary" option to the profiles isn't going to really in a liberal revolution.

 

Gender is already a part of the forum--and, as evidenced by the posts in this thread, there are people who DO care and people who DON'T--and, as evidenced by the posts on this thread, for many people it does not affect their experience on the website.

 

So in all probability, adding a single option that most people won't pay attention to is not going to result in a drastic change in the forum attitude.

 

Either way, a side is going to be uncomfortable. But we already have two minority genders, genderless and transgender, as options--so I don't think adding a third, quite widely inclusive option should be a threat to anyone.

 

Letting people identify as non-binary is not isolating anyone else. It does not affect anyone except those who select the option.

 

How is it any different from the other gender options DCF already has?

 

Taking away the option will not make people care less, it will just make them display their gender in more obtrusive ways e.g. sig/profile.

And I think you missed the point. Adding 1 additional one (non-binary) and removing trans is something I could support. Its the other dozen that I don't want to see added.

 

You also missed the point that the Gender area in the profiles are "official", and as we have been made brutally aware.... Nothing in the signature is official, hence why we can post IOUs in them but NOT post them on the forums.

 

If someone chooses to display their identity in their signature (which they will have to do regardless of what's added, since even the most that can physically be added is a small number compared to what is out there), then its not official. Right now, you can (and many do) post religious and political icons in their signature, but its not the site taking a stand or suggesting that both are "important" to the game. They also post causes and various what-nots. Also blinky pictures (which I'd love to see banned because they hurt the eyes >.<).

 

And yes, the person above me was suggesting more than just the "non-binary" one be added.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Ah, my apologies then. I agree that there should not be more than one or two added, if any are to be. Would support removing trans as well since I haven't seen that used and it seems to kind of... miss the point, IMO. but anyway.

 

yeah, like I said: gender is already an (official) part of the forums, and most people still do not seem to care about it. I don't think having a small icon under your avatar indicating your gender (& implied pronouns most of the time, which can be helpful) is too much as far as officialness goes. I have never gotten the impression that, simply by having the option to display your gender, DC was making a point of gender being Important To The Game. It is just a form of profile customization, no more important or emphasized than an avatar.

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(such as adding a dozen gender identities to cover less than 5% of the population), it will send the message that "This is the Official Dragon Cave View on this Topic, Do Not Counter It".

 

Rather more than 5% actually - but still; I'd rather see it not in the forums at all, to be honest. But if it is - a small number of options and not leaving out the "not telling" one - which I already prefer, even given that at the time I chose it, it was male, female or not telling !

Edited by fuzzbucket

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Rather more than 5% actually - but still; I'd rather see it not in the forums at all, to be honest. But if it is - a small number of options and not leaving out the "not telling" one - which I already prefer, even given that at the time I chose it, it was male, female or not telling !

I'd be genuinely curious in actual numbers. I know for sexual orientation, I've seen numbers in the 5% range. However, I strongly suspect that as the taboo against non-pair non-binary fades and there's a more open mentality to non-standard familial relationships, the numbers will jump up. Not because people are coming out of the closet per se, but because they have a more open view of love so consider more options. I think having non-male / female families is a great thing, because those pairings tend to think really hard before adopting a child (because they can't have one by accident), so tend to make very good parents. And the more children that grow up in happy loving homes, the better.

 

People's views change as cultures change and shift. Change is not, however, painless, and shifts of the magnitude and speed we're seeing right now (not 20 years ago the Supreme Court struck down gay marriage, now they supported it) is unprecedented. When my uncle came out as gay, 15 years ago? (well, uncle by marriage), it was a HUGE shock (not the least because he was married to my Aunt for many years >.<). And it was a whole taboo thing. Its not just socially that's changing, either, its also technology.

 

Given that upheaval and how many people are getting burned / buried / hurt (on both sides), I think keeping it as out of the official forums as we can would be a really good idea in order to keep these forums welcoming to everyone.

 

I get that some people feel very strongly about being able to have something "official", but many people (I'm not actually one of them) get hurt / upset over it, or *have been* hurt by those of other views. And some cultures still view non-binary in extremely bad light. You can say "they should learn!" all you want, but their cultures are very different and it makes them feel unwanted / marginalized too to hear that sort of comment.

 

So while I'd prefer to see it removed entirely, I'd support:

Not Telling

Male

Female

Non-Binary

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Since the pronoun-box-thing can't happen with the actual forum software(1), I'd like the options "non binary" and "other" to be added. I also feel that the "transgender" option should be replaced with "transgender male" and "transgender female", and "genderless" should be replaced by "agender".

 

BTW, we can choose any avatar we want. Many have anime-related ones, I have a photo of my horse... how is that relevant to raising dragons? That's just what people do when joining a forum: choose a name, pick an avatar... indicate their gender. wink.gif

 

 

(1) that's still the option I'd prefer, myself, because I fear it will be difficult (impossible?) to include everyone with pre-made gender choices. Although an "other" option would help.

You perfectly encapsulated my thoughts on this very complicated subject. I feel like the options offered aren't quite enough but I think you have hit all of the big umbrella terms.

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That's very slippery slope. Adding one "non-binary" option to the profiles isn't going to really in a liberal revolution.

 

Gender is already a part of the forum--and, as evidenced by the posts in this thread, there are people who DO care and people who DON'T--and, as evidenced by the posts on this thread, for many people it does not affect their experience on the website.

Exactly, and with a not telling option but keeping gender options, we can offer options to everyone. But if we take all the options away to appease transphobes, we hurt more people than we help.

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I personally support modifying the current options of genderless and transgender to agender and transmale and transfemale. I also support adding an umbrella term such as non-binary. Is an "other" option important? I'm not sure how people would feel about choosing "other", kind of how "genderless" feels strange.

 

Although maybe it would be better to just remove transgender and let the trans members choose the gender they identify as. Any trans members want to weigh in on this? How important is it to let people know you're trans?

 

I think I feel that since the forum is already going in the direction of being more inclusive about gender identity options, it's important to make those options logical and inclusive. Adding a basic umbrella term that people of various complex gender identities can feel comfortable with is a simple step in that direction without going overboard in trying to list them all.

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But if we take all the options away to appease transphobes, we hurt more people than we help.

I don't feel taking away ALL options would specifically appeal to "transphobes" as you say, I would not say I am in any way transphobic, I respect everyone's right to be who they are and think everyone should be who they are and would personally treat everyone with the respect they deserve regardless of their gender identity, what I'm saying is gender has no real purpose on a forum, it doesn't matter whether you identify as male, female, transgender, non-binary etc.

 

Gender of an individual is not something I pay attention to on a forum, I would say gender is rather irrelevant.

 

side note (and I'm probably reading too much into this and taking this too personally, its late I've had a bit to drink, I'll be fine in the morning) transphobic: intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people, to insinuate anyone who would wan't gender to be irrelevant on the site MUST INTENSLY DISLIKE a group of people is both RUDE and inacurate. It's not like anyone is saying "keep only male and female as options! Everything else is stupid and anyone who would identify as anything else must be mentally insane!" no... no one is saying that, as far as I can see the people saying remove gender options ENTIRELY (myself included) are saying to do so for 2 reasons; 1. People who are not understanding or who might actually be transphobic are likely to harass and be terrible people. And 2. As I stated earlier gender is rather irrelevant in an internet setting.

 

For me its like if the forum had a profile question that was "whats your favorite color?" its not going to change how you interact with anyone, if anything you'll get some weirdos who are like"ppthff! your favorite color is yellow?! You're insane! The only acceptable favorite colors are blue and red!" its a stupid irrelevant argument that I'd rather not see or recieve. Anyone can have any favorite color, anyone can be what ever gender they want.

 

You would't be taking away options to appease transphobes.(THAT WOULD BE THE STUPIDEST REASON TO DO ANYTHING) You would take away ALL options to remove something that isn't a necessity. There isn't a "what race are you?" option, there isn't a "what class are you" option, there isn't a"republican or democrat" option, not an "are you a feminist?"option there should't be a gender option. None of these options matter or are relevant to dragon cave.

 

The way we deal with harassment is to report it to mods so that we can take care of it. Not by forcing people into the closet if they don't want to be in the closet.

It also would'nt be forcing anyone into a closet, you would only be doing that if the only options were male and female which NO ONE is asking for.

 

EDIT:(man I ramble...)

Rather more than 5% actually

Was curious about the actual numbers... did some research, found this (page 13)

Edited by jessabelleanna

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