Profile Gender Choices

[cyradis4]

Ah, there are some people who genuinely prefer 'it'. My datemate is one of them.

Hahaha, you learn something every day!

 

Fuzz, those are some very interesting articles! The first more so than the 2nd.

 

Sock, I am strongly against adding any more gender terms because there is no way to be truly inclusive with "just a couple". I would far rather get rid of ALL gender terms, period, than add even one more because gender is, on a forum, irrelevant. For the most part, it doesn't add anything and adding more gender terms doesn't add anything except confusion for most people. And yea, I've looked up the meanings of various "gender" terms at different points in time.... and what I've found is far more contradictions and different meanings than any sort of actual concrete answer (it changes year to year and region to region and often person to person). And if you use the wrong term, those it matters to tend to get really upset with you and take extreme offense (yep seen people go postal when you are trying to be nice and do as they ask but get it wrong because there IS no one real set of terms with "this is what this term really means"). So since I can't avoid them getting upset when someone inevitably gets it wrong because everyone's definition is a bit different.... I'd rather remove all references to it across the board.

 

Now I could put up a suggestion to remove the gender area completely.... If you want.

 

Changing gender to "preferred pronoun" would be useful, because it tells you something useful, though you start to get into a mess again if you allow "custom pronouns". Telling people "he / she / them" covers all basis and stays really broad.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

[Obscure_Trash]

Now I could put up a suggestion to remove the gender area completely.... If you want.

As you'd be the one creating the topic, it's if you want.

 

 

~

 

I want to be more clear about what I'm trying to say: don't forget that when you're discussing this? you're discussing real people who exist right here on the forum. For some of you, this discussion is just about inclusion and being fair - but for others of us, this is a very personal discussion. Please just try and keep that in mind.

 

As a side note to the pronoun discussion, I want to say: no, gender does not always clearly correlate with pronoun usage. And, unfortunately, adding a pronoun field to the profile likely falls under "modifying forum software" which isn't viable at this time - but will be viable to suggest if/when the forum ever upgrades to more recent software. So this suggestion isn't about pronouns. It's about gender. And personally? I didn't add my gender (which I did pick an umbrella term for and am perfectly happy with doing so) for anybody else. I didn't add it so that you could know my pronouns (which I had in my sig for a while, but took out when I was still getting PMs calling me "mr"). I added it because it's been very hard for me personally to realize I was nonbinary. It was harder still to accept it. And it's been the hardest to figure out if I actually even have an identity I can pin down. Me picking my gender was a celebration of finally being able to accept I'm not still the gender I always thought I was for more than 20 years of my life. Seeing that little symbol? It's personal. It's validating. It's just for me. Which is why I support adding a few more umbrella terms, as long as there are appropriate symbols and TJ can customize the text. The umbrella terms I would like to see: genderfluid, nonbinary, and other.

[Fuzzbucket]

I want to be more clear about what I'm trying to say: don't forget that when you're discussing this? you're discussing real people who exist right here on the forum. For some of you, this discussion is just about inclusion and being fair - but for others of us, this is a very personal discussion. Please just try and keep that in mind.

 

As a side note to the pronoun discussion, I want to say: no, gender does not always clearly correlate with pronoun usage. And, unfortunately, adding a pronoun field to the profile likely falls under "modifying forum software" which isn't viable at this time - but will be viable to suggest if/when the forum ever upgrades to more recent software. So this suggestion isn't about pronouns. It's about gender. And personally? I didn't add my gender (which I did pick an umbrella term for and am perfectly happy with doing so) for anybody else. I didn't add it so that you could know my pronouns (which I had in my sig for a while, but took out when I was still getting PMs calling me "mr"). I added it because it's been very hard for me personally to realize I was nonbinary. It was harder still to accept it. And it's been the hardest to figure out if I actually even have an identity I can pin down. Me picking my gender was a celebration of finally being able to accept I'm not still the gender I always thought I was for more than 20 years of my life. Seeing that little symbol? It's personal. It's validating. It's just for me. Which is why I support adding a few more umbrella terms, as long as there are appropriate symbols and TJ can customize the text. The umbrella terms I would like to see: genderfluid, nonbinary, and other.

Sock - I absolutely hear you - but as you say yourself - it was hard for you to find and accept a gender identity that fit. And a lot of people who accept that they aren't binary or female or whatever still can't find a term that works for them. We would ABSOLUTELY need a field for "other." But I would still far rather it sat in profiles. Would that make you feel very much excluded/invalidated ? I can't get my head around needing - even wanting - to know what gender the person is who was hoping to find a mentor/get someone to breed them a silver/influence for them.

 

That being said, and lacking any experience in trying to address genders out of the usual spectrum, I suspect that pretty much anyone can be convinced to either be male, female or neither, represented by the pronouns he, she or they. If I look at the - probably very incomplete - list on wikipedia .org, my head starts to spin. How is anybody supposed to remember e, E, em ey, hu, pe, per, thon, ve, xe, ye, ze/hir, ze/mer, ze/zir and zhim, much less what they mean exactly?

This, rather.

Edited February 28, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[diaveborn]

If gender feels irrelevant to someone that does make some sense - if we're talking about DC or other matters not related to a person's gender, and using the singular they, for example, knowing the gender of a poster might not have a huge impact.

 

But for some people I imagine it is very important to display certain things about themselves even if others might not always care. Especially in a society which would assume that a person is one of a subset of descriptors, if you don't fit that I imagine it could be a way to have people not assume that. Or just state for yourself, as Sock said. Stating things about oneself can be HUGELY important and validating.

 

And I DO NOT get why if people don't feel the need to know stuff, why there's this big push to have it be in a profile. I never ever saw this be an issue before and I don't understand why people can't continue to ignore it and not refer to people by gendered pronouns. There's no need to bring up sexual orientation as a slippery slope argument as people are just asking to expand what's already there. It's not going to get obnoxiously cluttered. (For clarity, I'd love to see an option to add pronouns if the forum software changes in the future - I don't think that'd be too cluttered either.)

 

Also as for the issue of how are people expected to know all those pronouns.. I mean, first of all I don't know that anyone is asking that... but secondly, there are online tools to help - and don't we learn new stuff all the time? (As for what they mean, my understanding was that it's just people not using a binary pronoun.)

Edited March 1, 2017 by diaveborn

[Whirlaway]

I don't see why its such a deal. I looked at the gender thing once and never looked again. It is in such a minute spot on your page that it seems like it doesn't even matter. You could put it in the signature or something if you really wanted to.

[DuskOfTheStars]

Also as for the issue of how are people expected to know all those pronouns..  I mean, first of all I don't know that anyone is asking that... but secondly, there are online tools to help - and don't we learn new stuff all the time?  (As for what they mean, my understanding was that it's just people not using a binary pronoun.)

THIS.

 

Also, I personally want to be called xe/xir/xem... I've tried they/them, but it doesn't feel right for me, and I've had people who don't know it's a singular pronoun get very confused. I don't mind they if you don't know, but I prefer xe and would much rather you use that, hence putting it in my profile at the top.

 

It? NO. No. No. I have some issues that, well... *some* people don't respect me when they know I have them due to associated stigma and the assumption that all of them are the same. And the history behind them. So it makes me feel like an object, like a subhuman.

 

Therefore, if we do a pronoun box, in my opinion we should be able to type them in.

 

RE: original suggestion: I think adding an option for at least nonbinary would work, but all of the suggested ones would be good to have. As for the symbols... does no symbol work?

Edited March 1, 2017 by Dusky_Flareon

[Pokemonfan13]

I do not think a pronoun option should be typeable. I don't see any reason to have anything beyond he, she, they, and xe if I'm correct that it's the most common. If someone types in an obscure one and someone doesn't notice or doesn't want to have to remember some obscure pronoun, the person who asked for the obscure pronoun might get unnecessarily upset.

 

Honestly, my opinion comes a good bit from the first article Fuzz linked. People were literally making up their own pronouns, and it really is unfair to expect people to remember. If we need to venture into the realm of new singular non-gender pronouns at all, there should be the one that appears to be the most popular and leave it at that. Remember, they has been used as a gender neutral singular pronoun since Shakespeare's time.

 

(Some official grammar thing needs to just make one of the new ones official, and all the rest become grammatically incorrect fringe)

 

 

 

Actually on topic, I really don't mind if an umbrella term or two are added. If we're going to have the number of options we already have, a "nonbinary" option to cover (most?) of the rest makes sense, and maybe an "other" to be on the safe side. But I think the current ones should be reevaluated for logic, since it seems like asking for a separate "this is the pronoun I like" option isn't viable right now. After all, the most important thing for giving gender information on a forum like this is related to letting people know how to refer to you. Maybe the "transgender" option should be split to show that the person is trans, but also to designate their chosen gender so people can get the pronoun correct. As it stands transgender people have to choose between letting people know they're transgender and letting people know their gender of choice, at least not without resorting to typing a message elsewhere. The more gender neutral options don't help much with pronouns, except maybe to affirm that a neutral "they" or one of the new gender neutral pronouns is appropriate. I also agree in principal that "agender" seems better than "genderless".

[Obscure_Trash]

People were literally making up their own pronouns

Literally all pronouns are made up. All words are made up. There are billions of words out there that have real meaning to humans - words that did have real meaning to words and feel out of use, even - even though I do not know these words and would not understand if presented without a definition. But that doesn't make them invalid.

 

But again. That's not really on topic.

[maylin]

It only shows up in your profile and at the bottom. Why not just write it on your profile page?

[cyradis4]

Literally all pronouns are made up. All words are made up. There are billions of words out there that have real meaning to humans - words that did have real meaning to words and feel out of use, even - even though I do not know these words and would not understand if presented without a definition. But that doesn't make them invalid.

 

But again. That's not really on topic.

See Sock, the difference between these made-up words and the made up word "he" is that nearly everyone agrees that the typical male of the species should go by "he". The other words..... Those in the community don't agree on a meaning. How am I, who is not in the community, to know when the meaning changes every week and region to region?

 

I don't even like the use of the "xe". I realize that some people feel that using "them" doesn't feel right, but.... Pronouns are not specific to a person, and never have been. In fact, they are supposed to be not-unique. Now, if the community could *agree* on one, single, gender-neutral pronoun, I'd support that. English is already mostly gender-neutral. It could be used for ALL people, male, female, and non-standard. It'd remove gender from the equation entirely (which I am a huge fan of). But.... There's been no agreement that I've seen. :/

 

As for this suggestion..... Adding "non-binary" wouldn't be a big deal, and I wouldn't care. But adding more? There are two genders already there that cover 95% of the world population (which is probably a good thing for the continuation of the species, it needing a man and a woman to produce children, though probably not so good for Earth itself). And judging from the forums..... Most people choose "not telling" anyway. Frankly? I think you'd find that adding anything more specific than one non-standard term would result in at most only a couple of people using it. And the rest of the people scratching their heads, wondering what it means. So yea, giving people something that says they aren't standard is one thing, but adding anything more.... seems pretty pointless *and* subject to problems when the terms used for the more specific terms change yet again.

 

We are in the middle of a (much needed) major social re-alignment in the human population. Views and acceptable behaviors are changing rapidly. When DC first hit the internet, this topic would have still been taboo. The terms used right now have changed in the last few years, and they will change again in the next few because the change is, if anything, speeding up.

 

I'd be happy to support something like:

Not Telling

Male

Female

Non-Binary

 

Because those are extremely general, cover all bases, and are unlikely to change in the next couple of years. Dragon Cave is about collecting dragons, and has a large international community. I just want to play with dragons, and have fun arguing in Suggestions and Discussion about dragons with my online friends. I do not want to be subjected to the social re-alignment when I come here to play, because I live and breath it in real life (I live in a very liberal state and am a woman in a man's job). It will work itself out in communities across the world, as it should. I'd like to see it left out of this game, where it has no effect, until most of said change has worked itself out. I realize that to some of you, its a very important topic. But for some of the rest of us? I have to ask that you remember that we are people too and many of us just don't want to have to deal with it where we come to play. And yes. I've witnessed several VERY nasty incidents where the non-binary community attacked (for no apparent reason) someone who had different views, and I've seen some brutal attacks against the non-binaries also for no apparent reason.

 

Please, it has no place on DragCave and I don't want to have to deal with *either* side on a regular basis.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

[The Dragoness]

Please, it has no place on DragCave and I don't want to have to deal with *either* side on a regular basis.

Yes.

 

As has been said many times, this is a forum that serves one purpose: to bring together people who play DragCave. We (for the most part) come here to discuss ways to improve the site, to play mostly dragon-oriented forum games, and to trade/gift to others. Gender isn't a part of that at all, just as we don't discuss religion, race, or politics (not anymore) here. It has absolutely no effect on how things work.

 

I'm happy for the people who have chosen new identities and found happiness in that and they deserve to be accepted in all places, including online, but this isn't the place for such an argument and I've never seen anyone be harassed on this forum because of their gender. It also isn't fair to the 95% to expect us to memorize the thousands of connotations and denotations behind each and every pronoun out there--new ones are created every day. So while I have nothing against a non-binary option, I agree that the gender menu should just be removed entirely. If people wish to be called he, she, they, xe, etc., they can say so in their profile or signature. They is the most commonly used pronoun here as it is anyway. For example, despite having chosen female as my gender on the site, people still refer to me as they. And that's perfectly fine.

[Jazeki]

I admit, if a person has something like nonbinary, agender, genderqueer, etc. under their avatar, I'm going to refer to them as "they." If they have an amalgamation of Mars and Venus symbols under their avatar (as most forum symbols seem to be), I will refer to the person as "they" or "them." Or I will refer to the user only by their username.

 

The only instance in which I will use a different pronoun is if the person has it in their signature (like Sock used to) or they directly ask me to refer to them by x pronoun in the third person. But I am with Fuzz, C4, the Dragoness, and others. Adding a standardized term like nonbinary (neither male nor female) or transmale/transfemale or changing the drop down box to fill in the blank is fine. Otherwise, put it in your signature or gently correct the issue when it arises.

 

For most part, your gender is not going to affect your navigation of DC or the forum unless you are in a specific thread pertaining to where you fall on the gender spectrum. Like Fuzz said, an individual's gender does not directly affect my playstyle or if I want to trade with you. I use the spring layout and only see mars and Venus symbols anyway.

 

Edit: please excuse typos as this is a mobile reply.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jazeki

[ElpuntThing]

I want to be more clear about what I'm trying to say: don't forget that when you're discussing this? you're discussing real people who exist right here on the forum. For some of you, this discussion is just about inclusion and being fair - but for others of us, this is a very personal discussion. Please just try and keep that in mind.

 

This.

 

Gosh, some of you people are worse than the "colourblind" people in discussions of racism!

 

Gender identity may not matter to you, but that's often the case with cisgender people (ie, people whose gender matches the one they were assigned at birth). We don't consider our gender to be important until we stop and examine it. It matters a great deal to those who have struggled with it, and even I, a cis girl, would be upset if someone called me "he" and refused to change when corrected, because it "wasn't a big deal" or "too difficult to understand" or whatever excuse serial misgender-ers use these days.

 

I do not care how someone else identifies. I don't care who climbs into bed with them.

I. Don't. Care. I don't care if you are a hex-sexual Alpha Centaurian via Jupiter's moon Eos!

 

Writing that you don't care about someone's gender (with grammatically-incorrect periods for emphasis, no less) can be incredibly hurtful! And as far as I'm concerned, gender is relevant, because unfortunately in the english language, there is no way to refer to someone in the third person without using pronouns which have a gender connotation (including the concept of 'neutral' gender expressed by 'they', since that's distinct from the 'inhuman' connotation of 'it'). You might not need to understand precisely what the language used means to the person using it, but acknowledging it, allowing a person to self-label, and using correct pronouns, are just basic common decency. And if you're going to consider someone a friend, then why wouldn't you want to learn about the way someone identifies themself? Do you also tell your bisexual friends "I don't care that you're bisexual and I never want you to mention it to me"?

 

This came up in Canada recently.

Here are two very good articles about a professor at U of T.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/cus...rticle32373933/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37875695

The thing is - where do you stop ?

 

Did you read the part in the second article where Dr Airton called him out on indulging in "slippery slope fallacies"?

 

I'm in the camp that thinks pronouns would be the best thing, but since that doesn't seem to be possible according to Sock, we definitely, at the very least, need an 'other' option, and I would support umbrella terms like 'nonbinary' and 'genderqueer', and a few more specific terms like 'trans male', 'agender', 'bigender', 'two-spirit'... although perhaps it would be best not to include those if it would upset the "your gender is too hard to understand" crowd.

 

(I would argue that the current "male" and "female" options be removed and replaced with "cisgender (fe)male" and "transgender (fe)male" tbh, to force people to actually go out and learn a bit about diversity in gender, but I wouldn't want to force binary trans people to out themselves like that...)

 

PS: Btw, fuzzbucket, I tracked down some of your old posts in the sexuality thread... I don't suppose you've heard the term 'demisexual'? I'm not 100% sure, since it's not a word that applies to me, but you gave an almost textbook description of someone who knows that they're demi, but hasn't encountered the word.

[Jazeki]

I just want to point out that gender is a social construct. You are not assigned a gender. You have a sex. Male or female. You develop your gender identity as you grow. Identifying people here as coming to the conclusions or opinions that they have because they are cis male or cis female is wrong. Cisgender indicates that you identify using the gender identity and gender roles identifying with the sex that you are born with. No one here is saying that people should forced to conform with set gender roles. Just that they would rather do with a more neutral gender term than a specific one.

 

You can't just say "oh you're probably cis and that's why." Consider that most of these terms are very new in terms of language development (cisgender being from 1998) and it takes a while to adapt.

[The Dragoness]

Gender identity may not matter to you, but that's often the case with cisgender people (ie, people whose gender matches the one they were assigned at birth).

 

... although perhaps it would be best not to include those if it would upset the "your gender is too hard to understand" crowd.

 

(I would argue that the current "male" and "female" options be removed and replaced with "cisgender (fe)male" and "transgender (fe)male" tbh, to force people to actually go out and learn a bit about diversity in gender, but I wouldn't want to force binary trans people to out themselves like that...)

If you're going to scold someone else for being "colorblind," at least consider your own argument first. Accusing an entire group of people (cisgender) of refusing to learn and/or care about gender diversity is ridiculous. Several self-proclaimed cisgender players have posted in favor of a change--whether that be to remove gender from the forum entirely or add a new option or two.

 

Also, I don't think anyone has posted about the genders being "too hard to understand." It's the number of them out there that worries most people.

 

And if forcing a certain group out of their comfort zone bothers you, then you should consider the feelings of the rest of us too. The entire forum is affected by this...not just the group of players who have asked for it to happen. There may very well be people who are uncomfortable with the idea of identifying as "cisgender," and it's no more fair attack them for feeling that way than it is to do the same to a transgender person.

 

While I'm okay with learning a few more terms and pronouns myself, it's still not fair to just expect every single player to do so. People can be lazy. They won't do it and then the new symbols/pronouns/genders will become confusing. To prevent this from happening, we could just remove the option to choose a gender entirely. Then no one is forced out of their comfort zone, there is no pronoun struggle, and no one has to explain the meanings to those who didn't put research into it.

 

I agree with what Jazeki said above.

Edited March 1, 2017 by The Dragoness

[olympe]

A question to all trans people: You all identify with one gender, the gender which doesn't match the genitals you were born with. But you fully identify with that gender. So, why not simply choose that gender in your profile? So, if, for example, you're trans-female, why is it wrong for you to choose female? Do you feel it's important for everyone to know that you weren't born with that gender? Does it make you more/less of a man/woman to claim that you're trans? Is the trans part the part about your gender identity that defines you? (Sorry if this comes across as aggressive, but I'm seriously curious about this, and I'm definitely not trying to attack anyone. I merely want to understand the problem, which, right now, I simply don't. Sorry.)

 

I agree that "genderless" might be a problematic choice for anyone, as it implies that the person affected lacks something, so I'd prefer any umbrella term for anything between male and female that the people affected can agree on. Non-binary seems like a good choice to me, but I'm far from an expert.

 

However, I'd much rather change the gender info to preferred pronouns (complete set, please!) or do away with it entirely before I'd want to see two dozen or more different gender choices.

[cyradis4]

This.

 

*snipped for length*

First off.... I HAVE had people call me "him" and keep doing it even after I corrected them. You know what I do? Shrug and move on. Why? Because I don't care. There are many things that are important to me, and those I defend. But that just isn't. I am who I am, a unique individual with my own strengths, weaknesses and flaws, and I feel no need to label myself. I realize that others choose to do so, and that's their right and I have no problems with that. And unless you are about to climb into my bed, your sex doesn't matter to me, either. Part of what I love about forums is that there are no visual cues, so we can be judged by what we post and not what we look like.

 

You are falling into the hole of "because it matters to me, it MUST matter to you!" and..... it doesn't. Like I said earlier, I'm a woman who likes men doing what is traditionally (and still almost all IS) "man's work". Do I have to put up with sexism? Damn right I do. Its extremely prevalent in the engineering world.

 

And as for being "too lazy to learn the genders"...... Sorry girl, but I've TRIED to learn them multiple times. Every time I saw someone go postal over gender identity, I've looked it up. You know what I find? The terms are CHANGING in meaning. What meant one thing 5 years ago means something a bit different this year, what meant one thing to a person from the West Coast meant something different from the person on the East Coast. I'm happy to learn the terms..... Just as soon as someone comes up with a definitive dictionary that doesn't change place to place and year to year and forum to forum!

 

As for talking about it, I talk about it all the time with my actual friends. And you know what else we talk about? Religion, Politics, Science, books, sex, and anything and everything else we can think of. Know something else? We can talk about it honestly to each other, because we respect each other's opinions. You know what? I've changed my opinions over time because of those discussions.

 

I don't come here to DragCave to talk about gender identity, I come here to talk about dragons and collect them. I don't come here to engage with people on social change, I come here to get away from it because I am PART of social change by my very existence in my current job.

 

You may think me a "typical stupid cis-person", but that's you choosing to label me. Me? I refuse to be labeled in any way. Just as I refuse to be blown off or ignored because I'm a woman doing a man's job.

 

Also, you have conveniently ignored my points about the terms changing in meaning and are instead choosing to call me "lazy". I'd like to see you address that very problem I've been having for the last 5+ years, and that's that terms are in a state of flux and are constantly changing, and that even the same term means different things to different people.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

PS: Btw, fuzzbucket, I tracked down some of your old posts in the sexuality thread... I don't suppose you've heard the term 'demisexual'? I'm not 100% sure, since it's not a word that applies to me, but you gave an almost textbook description of someone who knows that they're demi, but hasn't encountered the word.

Actually no. demi does not work for me - I have heard the term. It still doesn't fit. But I don't want to derail the thread by getting into that - I am female, but I do not want that fact under my avatar. Nor do I mind not having a word I can use - but thanks for trying

 

To prevent this from happening, we could just remove the option to choose a gender entirely. Then no one is forced out of their comfort zone, there is no pronoun struggle, and no one has to explain the meanings to those who didn't put research into it.

I would love to see the option go; anyone who wants their sex/gender known can put it in their profile, as well as details of the pronouns they would hope for. But please, those who want different pronouns, try not to have the forum end up with hundreds.

 

And as for being "too lazy to learn the genders"...... Sorry girl, but I've TRIED to learn them multiple times. Every time I saw someone go postal over gender identity, I've looked it up. You know what I find? The terms are CHANGING in meaning. What meant one thing 5 years ago means something a bit different this year, what meant one thing to a person from the West Coast meant something different from the person on the East Coast. I'm happy to learn the terms..... Just as soon as someone comes up with a definitive dictionary that doesn't change place to place and year to year and forum to forum!

This, so much. I am so old that I remember when gay meant cheerful and queer meant rather odd. I remember when in the brownies, one of the sixes had the delightful song

"we're the fairies glad and gay..."

 

They had to retire that when people complained...

Edited March 1, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[diaveborn]

Since so many people don't care about gender I fully expect all of those people to support removing gender completely from the posts, just not have it as an option on the forum any more AND to change their own gender to "not telling" because some people who are saying this doesn't matter actually have set their gender to be displayed in the posts and that would confuse the heck out of me except it makes unfortunate sense how people are able to brush off certain things.

 

As for "memorization is so hard we can't memorize hundreds of pronouns I have deemed irrelevant!", do you not realize that you can A) if pronouns were to be in the forum post area, just LOOK at that area and use that pronoun, that's not hard and B ) use google for the instances conjugation would come up or C) NOT use a pronoun for someone at all and just use their name, I don't think anybody is going to get mad at anybody for using their name and if you're worried about people getting angry this is a really good solution, I think.

 

I do not want to be subjected to the social re-alignment when I come here to play, because I live and breath it in real life (I live in a very liberal state and am a woman in a man's job). It will work itself out in communities across the world, as it should. I'd like to see it left out of this game, where it has no effect, until most of said change has worked itself out. I realize that to some of you, its a very important topic. But for some of the rest of us? I have to ask that you remember that we are people too and many of us just don't want to have to deal with it where we come to play.

 

And HOW is change going to work *itself* out?? It doesn't. *People* have to work on being accepting - change doesn't magically appear.

 

I'm really sad you would say it has no effect when it has a very very real effect on people to feel included, to feel they are not second-class.

 

First off.... I HAVE had people call me "him" and keep doing it even after I corrected them. You know what I do? Shrug and move on. Why? Because I don't care.

 

Trans and non-binary people don't get to have that privilege of being able to shrug it off. Misgendering can lead to suicidal thoughts and increased risk of suicide, it's very different than it is for us cis people.

Edited March 2, 2017 by diaveborn

[cyradis4]

Actually no. demi does not work for me - I have heard the term. It still doesn't fit. But I don't want to derail the thread by getting into that - I am female, but I do not want that fact under my avatar. Nor do I mind not having a word I can use - but thanks for trying

 

 

I would love to see the option go; anyone who wants their sex/gender known can put it in their profile, as well as details of the pronouns they would hope for. But please, those who want different pronouns, try not to have the forum end up with hundreds.

 

 

This, so much. I am so old that I remember when gay meant cheerful and queer meant rather odd. I remember when in the brownies, one of the sixes had the delightful song

"we're the fairies glad and gay..."

 

They had to retire that when people complained...

Yep, I want to see gender go entirely. I think I might post a Suggestion for that.

 

And yea, I'm not quite that old but "queer" has shifted recently enough that I do remember it meaning strange when I was quite young.

 

That's natural though, language changing and shifting, and terms changing in meaning. My issue isn't with the language changing, its with people going postal over someone else getting the term wrong.... A term which might have meant something very different a decade or two ago, when the other person was young.

 

And right now I'm trying to do a brain scrub on myself, before I say something people will take offence at. Its the mention of "two-spirit". I've been on a Werewolf / urban fantasy binge and two souls in one body is how the Werewolves / shape changers in the two most recent series I've read are described.

 

The book, Black Wolves of Boston. AWOOOOO! Go wolves! Actually, I think that'd be a very interesting book for everyone to read. The author, Wen Spencer, isn't afraid to take on the hard concepts. Sexuality, identity, changing, all those things are wrapped up in a great story that takes the normal tropes of the genera of Urban Fantasy and pushes.....

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Jazeki]

Since so many people don't care about gender I fully expect all of those people to support removing gender completely from the posts, just not have it as an option on the forum any more AND to change their own gender to "not telling" because some people who are saying this doesn't matter actually have set their gender to be displayed in the posts and that would confuse the heck out of me except it makes unfortunate sense how people are able to brush off certain things.

 

As for "memorization is so hard we can't memorize hundreds of pronouns I have deemed irrelevant!", do you not realize that you can A) if pronouns were to be in the forum post area, just LOOK at that area and use that pronoun, that's not hard and B ) use google for the instances conjugation would come up or C) NOT use a pronoun for someone at all and just use their name, I don't think anybody is going to get mad at anybody for using their name and if you're worried about people getting angry this is a really good solution, I think.

 

 

 

And HOW is change going to work *itself* out?? It doesn't. *People* have to work on being accepting - change doesn't magically appear.

 

I'm really sad you would say it has no effect when it has a very very real effect on people to feel included, to feel they are not second-class.

 

 

 

Trans and non-binary people don't get to have that privilege of being able to shrug it off. Misgendering can lead to suicidal thoughts and increased risk of suicide, it's very different than it is for us cis people.

You can't go both ways on the expectations. You simply cannot expect people who have identified as a gender and support removing the gender option to remove it completely "in solidarity" and then be annoyed when people say "I would rather not identify your gender" if you happen to have no image under your avatar. By asking people to remove their gender in solidarity, you are saying "erase yours to support mine/theirs." I refuse to do that.

 

 

I identify my gender as female. Going by several online tests, I score as leaning more on the casually masculine end of the spectrum or gender fluid. On one of my DeviantArt accounts, I don't have any gender assigned and people assume I am male. People assume I am male on my main account, too (where it says I am female). This is because my writing in many cases conveys a male voice. I don't have a pink avatar as I do here. I gently correct them or I ignore them.

 

As I said before, if I can't figure out your gender, I use your username or I use "they" or "them" or in this instance, when quoting or addressing a general group of people, I use "you." Assuming that only trans or non-binary people suffer from these concerns is offputting when you are saying that only cis people need to adjust their attitudes, understandings or customs. Doing this is doing the same kind of "lumping into a category" that you are speaking out against. Cis just means that your physical sex happens to match your gender. Many cis individuals who may fall into different sexual identities are at increased risk of suicide as well (bisexual, gay, etc.)

 

Developing terminology and a language takes time. People often don't have time or energy to look into what means what. It doesn't always mean they are lazy. I'm sure if they met you in person, they would make an effort to identify as you want to be identified, but for all intents and purposes of DC, a user's gender does not change the game. It does however, bring social concerns to focus in an area where it is not meant to be the focus, when you start asking TJ to adjust what is considered acceptable and unacceptable in terms of gender identity on a forum that everyone uses.

[diaveborn]

You can't go both ways on the expectations. You simply cannot expect people who have identified as a gender and  support removing the gender option to remove it completely "in solidarity" and then be annoyed when people say "I would rather not identify your gender" if you happen to have no image under your avatar. By asking people to remove their gender in solidarity, you are saying "erase yours to support mine/theirs."  I refuse to do that.

I'm not going both ways on my expectations, because I would *expect* everyone to be supportive of adding additional options.

 

I was not saying that people should remove it to show their support. That seems a bit backwards.

 

However, if people are saying that gender is irrelevant and then are displaying their own gender, how is that logically consistent? It's not. That is all I am trying to point out with that.

 

edit: I hope that makes sense cause I'm done with this thread.

 

Many cis individuals who may fall into different sexual identities are at increased risk of suicide as well (bisexual, gay, etc.)

 

Yes, but I was talking about the specific harm due to misgendering, and how misgendering affects cis people differently, and that cis people shouldn't say "oh but I'm not bothered!" as a way to say that other people shouldn't be bothered.

 

It does however, bring social concerns to focus in an area where it is not meant to be the focus, when you start asking TJ to adjust what is considered acceptable and unacceptable in terms of gender identity on a forum that everyone uses.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into the "adjusting" wording but - a person supporting the status quo doesn't mean they're not making a choice.

 

Social concerns are not the focus in a *social* area like a forum? What??

 

Yes, a forum that EVERYONE uses. Including trans and non-binary users.

 

They are not less important. And that is what I am hearing a LOT in this thread, that people think they are.

Edited March 2, 2017 by diaveborn

[Jazeki]

 

snip for breakdown below.

 

 

I'm not going both ways on my expectations, because I would *expect* everyone to be supportive of adding additional options. 

 

I was not saying that people should remove it to show their support. That seems a bit backwards.

 

However, if people are saying that gender is irrelevant and then are displaying their own gender, how is that logically consistent?  It's not.  That is all I am trying to point out with that. 

 

I apologize. It seemed like you were asking people to change their gender identification. For me, gender is irrelevant. If you want to display your gender, display it. If you don't want to, don't do it. I don't care what your gender is. I just want a few accepted terms, not a whole slew of ever-changing terms.

Yes, but I was talking about the specific harm due to misgendering, and how misgendering affects cis people differently, and that cis people shouldn't say "oh but I'm not bothered!" as a way to say that other people shouldn't be bothered.

 

Even cis people experience gender dysphoria. For the longest time when I was little, I was unable to understand why (as a female) I could not go without a shirt outside when it was hot when my brother or my father could or why I couldn't just go pee on a bush or something. I thought it was something wrong with me being female.

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into the "adjusting" wording but - a person supporting the status quo doesn't mean they're not making a choice.

 

Social concerns are not the focus in a *social* area like a forum? What?? 

 

Yes, a forum that EVERYONE uses. Including trans and non-binary users.

 

They are not less important.  And that is what I am hearing a LOT in this thread, that people think they are.

 

There are options for choosing things other than male and female right now. If TJ changes the options that are available, he's adjusting the choices that people have to choose from. What if their option is not added? People will keep asking for more and more terms. Wanting a few terms added, but not a ton, does not mean that it's supporting the status quo.

 

Social concerns are not the focus of this forum. The focus is Dragon Cave. There is a general discussion area where you can discuss social issues, but I'm sure that people are joining the forum for game reasons, not to make a social impact.

 

No one is saying they are less important. That's what you are inferring. If people really want people to know their correct gender, they'll put it somewhere where people can see it (their signature, preferably) regardless of whether this suggestion gets implemented. As far as I'm aware, gender identification has not been a major concern in terms of letting the userbase know what you are until this suggestion was posted. Otherwise, someone would have suggested it already as they have suggested username changes.

[Sundew]

i really see no harm at all in adding a "non-binary" option to the list of current genders.

 

it's not harming anyone, it's not forcing anyone to select it, it's just providing another umbrella term for people who would prefer to be identified that way.

 

just because you do not care about your gender being displayed doesn't mean that others are sensitive about it. they have the right to be sensitive. -- and if adding another gender option makes people feel more comfortable in the forum, do it. it isn't inconveniencing anyone.

 

i personally do not want my gender to be displayed, but that's me, and i don't care what pronouns people use for me. other people do care, and do want to be identified by certain pronouns -- and keeping the gender feature can be useful for that.

if you don't care, don't use it, but why take away a feature which makes posting easier/more comfortable for people who closely associate their gender with their identity?

 

this topic shouldn't be about discussing to validity of certain identities. it's just about adding another option to your profile. this option does not inconvenience anyone, and could be beneficial to those who'd select it -- so i think i am in favor of it.

[jessabelleanna]

A few things I would like to say on this.

Originally I was like sure! lets add an 'others' button that has a box that says please specify or something like that but upon further investigation...

 

I would like to point to this article from the Williams institute of law concerning "Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults" findings by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and National Center for Transgender Equality.

 

On page 6 it has a table(2) looking mainly at the part labeled "Strength of Identification with Listed Identities" with the exception of transgender/sexual most of those who are gender non-conforming do not care all that much about their label or care at all. Second I would like to point out table 8 on page 9 "Lifetime suicide attempts by disclosure of

transgender/gender non-conforming status" which shows those who don't say how they identify have a suicide attempt rate of 33% where as those who do share there gender identity with everyone have a rate of 50%

 

From this I would say it might be better not to add anything or to get rid of it entirely, most of those who do not identify as any of the gender options listed on DC probably don't care all that much based on the data from table 2. Second the attempted suicide rate increases the more people know of the persons gender identity. Mainly for this reason I am against it, if knowing what someone identifies as increases the rate of suicide attempts (probably due to harassment/bullying because of their visible gender identity) I do not want it.