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2017-02-14 - Valentine's Day!

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The artist agreement says art has to be replaced with a "suitable replacement," but since they were so new to the site, couldn't a "suitable replacement" have been an entirely new dragon instead?

 

I mean, I understand wanting to keep the general vibe, but seeing another dragon created with clear inspirations from their design and even the description and name being kept feels a lot more like someone got ripped off then the feet matching implications. I understand people probably would've been annoyed at losing that style but as has been shown, people are still just as annoyed anyway, so...

 

I know if I'd had a dragon chosen only to be immediately accused of theft and lose my description and concept to something very clearly inspired by my design, I'd be hella mad.

+1

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OH BOY GUESS WHO HAS TO PUT IN HER TWO CENTS ON EVERY ISSUE

ME

 

i understand if a whole drawing was traced that would be bad but

one leg looks similar to a picture of a horse's leg because it's a hooved hind leg in a running position?

are u kidding?

if u google "horse running" i can guarantee you with 100000000% certainty you will find numerous photos and drawings of horses with their legs in that position.

is literally every one of those pictures then copied? which horse becomes the "alpha horse" and is the only horse allowed to be on the internet?

 

that is all c:

 

EDIT: i think i have to delete my concept for mummy-esque dragons now because they have the colour blue on them and other pictures also have the colour blue so rip me i guess

(i know thats a very dramatic oversimplification but come on guys really?)

I'm a little shocked at the reasoning as well, but that is a dramatic oversimplification when:

 

-the s2 almost perfectly matches up with a stock photo

-the artist in question has a history of tracing (this, I think, would be the kicker)

-the artist's agreement was violated anyway with availability of art

 

Though if this level of cribbing off references is disallowed, I'm going to seriously have to change my tactics on spriting. I'm not very good at anatomy and I rely heavily on references for things that aren't completely obvious. I had been under the impression that references were free game as long as you weren't directly spriting off them - but looking at them and mimicking what they do was fine.

Edited by Dianacat777

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This has quickly gone off-forums due to the ease of typing in an IRC instead, so I'll leave you with more brainstorming Para + Pika + I are doing and call it a night.

 

[21:57:43] <Paradoxangel> If pearls are the same as real pearls in formation, then you are going to get pearls that are vary wildly in size, shape (perfection of spherical form), and perhaps most importantly, color

[21:57:54] <Paradoxangel> They probably find mates based on that. Also, being pearls, if you draw real world conclusions about them, they are probably stolen/lost/(or given or discarded) frequently and then reformed

[21:59:34] <Paradoxangel> New pearls formed would inherently be different from previous pearls

[21:59:51] <Paradoxangel> Maybe they change mates accordingly as new pearls are created

[22:00:12] <XyIene> okay BUT if you can reform + create new pearls you know there's gonna be That One Jerk who makes like three unnecessary pearls and juggles them

[22:00:47] <Paradoxangel> But if we are running off magnetic-esque theory that won't work. It will only balance if there's one pearl betwixt the antlers

[22:01:09] <XyIene> Can you pls imagine these dragons making a ton of small pearls just to show off, being unable to balance them properly, and then eventually having to drop the extras because Dude. No.

[22:01:17] <Paradoxangel> Have you seen magnets hover between 2 other magnets? Like that

[22:01:29] <XyIene> but like. It sounds like something a small dragon would probably heck up. "Why can't I have TWO pearls" "THIS IS WHY, BILLY"

[22:01:43] <Paradoxangel> Im sure the immature ones attwmpt it?

[22:01:47] <XyIene> Wait are these dragons male or female

[22:01:54] <@Tehpikachu> female

[22:01:59] <XyIene> THIS IS WHY, JANE

[22:02:03] <@Tehpikachu> but i like females with male names so continue

[22:02:07] <Paradoxangel> But u know, its going to take a LONG time to form a new pearl, they will probably lose the old one by then

[22:02:45] <@Tehpikachu> maybe it doesn't, cos the s1 hatchling already formed the pearl

[22:03:13] <Paradoxangel> New pearls take time

[22:03:21] <@Tehpikachu> i dont think so, cos the desc would say that i think. it says that she formed it

[22:03:38] <@Tehpikachu> "It has conjured a shimmering pearl that it always brings with it."

[22:03:47] <XyIene> I'm fine with the oysterfacts I haven't done nearly enough research and it is Good

 

The thing I was wondering about the Metal + Antler idea is, if they're choosing a specific metal and mixing it with their antlers, they must be able to adjust the magnetic output of their antlers- basically, account for how heavy the pearl is and how strong or weak the magnetism is for varied metals. (For example, Iron, and Cobalt are magnetic, while others like Aluminum or Tin are more affected by magnetism.)

 

Since what's inside the pearl would be a mystery to dragons other than the pearl creator, the weight of pearl vs metal and the required output to make it 'float' would be difficult to figure out.

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If you look at the original that Tazzay posted, it has the pearl in its paw too.

Yes, and also then i would like to know if the descripition will be changed. Why talking about a pearl in the antlers when the pearl clearly is in the paw? blink.gif

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This has quickly gone off-forums due to the ease of typing in an IRC instead, so I'll leave you with more brainstorming Para + Pika + I are doing and call it a night.

 

 

 

The thing I was wondering about the Metal + Antler idea is, if they're choosing a specific metal and mixing it with their antlers, they must be able to adjust the magnetic output of their antlers- basically, account for how heavy the pearl is and how strong or weak the magnetism is for varied metals. (For example, Iron, and Cobalt are magnetic, while others like Aluminum or Tin are more affected by magnetism.)

 

Since what's inside the pearl would be a mystery to dragons other than the pearl creator, the weight of pearl vs metal and the required output to make it 'float' would be difficult to figure out.

The level of geek in these antler conversations has my approval. wub.gif

 

@Tigerkralle: It was in the antlers on the old S1 and S2 IIRC. smile.gif

Edited by Aurae

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-the artist in question has a history of tracing (this, I think, would be the kicker)

Not only does one artist have a history of tracing, they have a history of trying to pass traced work off as original for adoptable site submissions.

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I hope you realize nothing will be physically unique and will always have something identical or an exact replicant. Even if it's a single part or multiple parts. Nothing is entirely unique.

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It looks like a more complicated situation now that both sides of the story has come out.. I personally can't take sides with either parties.

 

I can understand why TJ did what he did when the possibility of tracing came up, he probably didn't have all the time in the world to decide on the action to take since the hatchlings were due to grow up soon. If the original adults were revealed to the userbase there was a possibility of backlash (regarding the tracing, regardless of how small the chance may be) against the artists that would have resulted in drama either way. I don't know. While it was unfair to Tazzay and EEF when the sprites were replaced completely, I think what TJ did was justifiable enough in terms of keeping the drama down and not blemishing the artists' names.

 

I don't think, at least to a growing artist who's only making art for themselves, that tracing/referencing or taking inspiration from something is a bad thing if they keep it to themselves or credit accordingly. (there is nothing shameful about crediting)

While I don't know if tracing did actually occur or not and I'm not stating this towards this situation specifically; I don't agree with using traces, or partially traced things in "official" situations, submission, etc and whatever. Just out of respect for the thing you're submitting/using it for and out of respect for the original inspiration.

 

This all turned to be quite a mess, I hope the heat settles down soon. ):

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To those of you in doubt of the legitimacy of the website's claims, I'd like to briefly talk about the differences between two things being in a "similar pose" and two things lining up angle-for-angle, width-for-width, length-for-length. While someone might have a similar idea as another, things almost never line up unless foul play is involved. The latter situation occurred here, which strongly suggests tracing.

 

Also, if you're still reading this, Tazzay: tracing free-to-use stock for your own personal learning experience and never posting anywhere is entirely different from tracing art and submitting it to websites as your own. You did the latter both on Tale of Dragons and here--I remember the Skull-Faced Lindwyrm quite clearly, being friends with Playdoh who unfortunately sprited your traced sketch without realizing it was traced--and it is ridiculously misleading to claim you only traced "to learn about anatomy."

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The thing I was wondering about the Metal + Antler idea is, if they're choosing a specific metal and mixing it with their antlers, they must be able to adjust the magnetic output of their antlers- basically, account for how heavy the pearl is and how strong or weak the magnetism is for varied metals. (For example, Iron, and Cobalt are magnetic, while others like Aluminum or Tin are more affected by magnetism.)

 

Since what's inside the pearl would be a mystery to dragons other than the pearl creator, the weight of pearl vs metal and the required output to make it 'float' would be difficult to figure out.

See, but this is Dragon Cave. Can't these dragons just make the pearls hover with the same magic that they used to conjure them?

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http://prntscr.com/eak869

WOAH GOT SOME TRACERS ON OUR HANDS

http://prntscr.com/eak953

SOMEONE CALL THE ART POLICE WE GOT A TRACER

http:// /eak98s

WHAT IS THIS OVERWATCH LMAO LOOK AT ALL THESE TRACERS

 

That pose was so generic that if you google "horse walking" it will match nearly every stock photo you see. By the logic being used here all the images I've screencapped need to be taken off the internet and destroyed.

This is like saying that Da Vinci should sue any work which depicts a human in the anatomical position because he drew the original Vetruvian Man, and especially considering that poses aren't protected under copyright ANYWAY, I conclude that this is more horse-dung (keepin it PG13 on this here forum) than anything that comes out of the animals depicted in the given stock photos.

 

(im only really this adamant because i liked the original ones better, and it sucks that such great designs got replaced by someone else's rendition because the self-proclaimed art police decided to make Valentines Day the target of their latest witchhunt).

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Not only does one artist have a history of tracing, they have a history of trying to pass traced work off as original for adoptable site submissions.

Well, yes, that's what I meant. It is rather damning - and even if they have changed, unfortunately that's a stigma that's hard to shake off.

 

But I would like a clarification to what extent references can be used in DC spriting, because now I'm hesitant. Like, directly lining a pose like a sketch and then adding draconic features is obviously bad, but what if you take a pose, draw a 'wire figure' with body-limbs-head-tail directly from the pose, and then sketch or sprite around that? What if you look at a reference and mimic it to the best of your ability, but never at any point trace or sprite off of it? Where's the line drawn?

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Yes, and also then i would like to know if the descripition will be changed. Why talking about a pearl in the antlers when the pearl clearly is in the paw?  :blink:

Because maybe.... just maybe.... the pearl isn't in the paw At All Times and is sometimes.... suspended between the antlers gasp, what? Ok, maybe a bit too much sass there (the granted the intent was humor) but basically unless it happens, i dont think the desc needs to be changed. It's not like the pearl won't *ever* be between the antlers, just in the little depiction there it happens to be in the paw ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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http://prntscr.com/eak869

WOAH GOT SOME TRACERS ON OUR HANDS

http://prntscr.com/eak953

SOMEONE CALL THE ART POLICE WE GOT A TRACER

http:// /eak98s

WHAT IS THIS OVERWATCH LMAO LOOK AT ALL THESE TRACERS

 

That pose was so generic that if you google "horse walking" it will match nearly every stock photo you see. By the logic being used here all the images I've screencapped need to be taken off the internet and destroyed.

This is like saying that Da Vinci should sue any work which depicts a human in the anatomical position because he drew the original Vetruvian Man, and especially considering that poses aren't protected under copyright ANYWAY, I conclude that this is more horse-dung (keepin it PG13 on this here forum) than anything that comes out of the animals depicted in the given stock photos.

 

(im only really this adamant because i liked the original ones better, and it sucks that such great designs got replaced by someone else's rendition because the self-proclaimed art police decided to make Valentines Day the target of their latest witchhunt).

i beelieve that what you're saying is reasonable, honey

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If we're having problems with these dragons and a lot of dragons are referenced with pictures, should TJ go in and tell everyone to rework their dragons because a certain body type like the head, body, leg, tail, or wing looks like eerily similar to that of the picture?

 

Because I know this got lost

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I think the 60 day agreement is being ignored by some because it was VERY OBVIOUSLY a breach. <snip>

The sketch being available, even if it was on the 100th page of "My crappy sketches - don't look," is still a breach of the contract and makes the original dragon unusable. The super extra closeness / tracing issue seems to be a bolster. Thank you, TJ for clearing up what happened. I kinda hate that you have to keep explaining and explaining.

 

 

That being said, Here is the post I tried to post last night for 2 hours while this topic was locked:

 

 

I liked the old s1 - I thought it kinda looked like the s1 for the Radiant Angels.

 

I love the new s1 because I agree that it looks like a baby goat with it's butt on fire and baby goats completely make me laugh like a child. I'm now in love with the s1s and will be collecting them next year.

 

I'm indifferent to the old s2 - They didn't keep the elegant stance of the old s1 but they were ok. They look like an elk or a buck seen from a distance.

 

The new s2s look like someone just told a baby goat that their butt...um...tail was on fire and they are not only startled, but also trying to look quickly to see about their tail. She's going to go tail over teakettle any minute now.

 

I like the old sprite. I think that Edwardelricfreak, Tazzay did a lovely job (far better than I would have been able to do). I especially think they did a good job with having enough muscle in the shoulder area to carry the wing joint and the arm joint at the same time. She reminded me of a heraldic stag with it's hooves and bushy tail with added wings and a golden orb. I wish I had a scanner so I could send my copy of Fox-Davies A Complete Guide to Heraldry, 1909! I wondered if they were somehow related to the Horse dragons based on her blue-purple tones.

 

I really like the new sprite. I think the anonymous spriter did an excellent job (and kept the goat like tail I like so much.) I like the more draconian feet, horns, and lack of ears. I like that the golden markings are more pronounced on the underwing and the heart on the shoulder. I especially like that her pearl is pearl colored rather than gold.

 

I have three things that I'm disappointed about. First, the horns on the adult seem to get lost on the scroll colored paper. Second, that it seems there might not be a spriter's alt to this lovely. And, third, that there seems to be such drama.

 

We are not bees. (For Bees go here) We are not Llamas. We need no drama. We need dragons (that look like goats as babies).

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We're still having fun, and relieved other people are interested! (-waves at Aurae-)

 

[22:27:45] <Paradoxangel> Honestly xy i was assuming antlers were inherently magnetic (and each individual dragon has a unique resonance based on the amount and  types of metal consumed) and that the antler bit was coated in layers of magic so. Yeah it is virtually impossible to steal someone elses pearl. Possibly, if they've had a life altering event or abrupt diet change, they wouldn't be able to handle their pearl and would have to form a new one

[22:28:53] <XyIene> I like the mental image of a dragon making their pearl around a chunk of cobalt and then just swallowing it

[22:28:58] <XyIene> some cobalt, not the pearl. CHOMP

[22:29:02] <Paradoxangel> Your iron intake heavily influences circulation. Zinc. Potassium. Manganese. All actual metals found in the human body.

[22:29:46] <Paradoxangel> Dragons probably consume gold in small quantities

[22:30:55] <@Tehpikachu> ye we do consume metal, but it's common in fiction for dragons to consume metal on a large scale, like coins and the like

[22:30:59] <XyIene> But if each dragon has a resonance based on amount + types of metal consumed, would it be reasonable to assume related dragons that live together would likely have similar genetic/physical makeups, and also similar diets?

[22:31:15] <XyIene> Not that it'd make them able to steal each other's pearls, but it would play on the "similar/related dragons have a better chance of being able to handle each other's pearls" idea.

[22:31:39] <Paradoxangel> Yes

 

See, but this is Dragon Cave. Can't these dragons just make the pearls hover with the same magic that they used to conjure them?

Yep, but I was thinking that story-magic shouldn't be overpowered- there should be reasons and limits on them! Not that I'm saying it's impossible or unreasonable, just that it would be easier (or require less magic/energy) for a dragon that knows the makeup of the pearl it's using. ouo

 

Consider how sports balls (soccer-, volley-, or medicine) vary- while you can run up and kick them all with the same power, they'll be sent different distances due to what they're made up of and their weights. If you know what you're dealing with, you can kick with less or more force and save your energy. (Also, if you kick a medicine ball you might hurt your foot! That brings up an interesting idea; do dragons end up needing the pearl to nullify or regulate the energy they're putting out?)

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Look, while everyone is discussing what is right and what is wrong, I wanna say this

 

Yes, I used to trace. Keyword - USED to. I did this to help learn anatomy a while ago (back when i was 11/12 - 2008/2009 - note this) Then I moved onto odeen says she does, looking at pictures and trying to imitate the pose, but with drawing a different picture. A lot of artists do this to learn.

 

The dragon sketch was made over three years ago, but not by me. I made a concept sketch, but it was not the one used for the sprite, it was simply to show the design. I again, did watch eef make the sketch, as we were discussing on how things should be on the dragon. There was one (1) reference that she used to help her with the positioning of the legs, the rest was done on her own. All of these images being shown were not that reference that she used, rather they are things that look similar to it - aka, a coincidence.

 

Look, the last thing is that I want to ask for people to stop going out of their way and 'warning' other site owners about using eef's or my art. It isn't fair for us if people go out - again - on a witch hunt to destroy our image like that. Digging into our deviant art account (which, mind, with my account I haven't logged in in almost three years) to 'find' things that look like the pose our dragons are in is just wanting to make us look worse. I get that some of you are in a censorkip.gif mood about this, but I just want it to stop, please.

 

Both eef and I feel like we're now being stalked over this incident. We've started removing links to our other profiles because of it. We are both trying to distance ourselves from this in order to calm down and forget about it, but some of you are following us to other places to continue to make us look bad. Is it really fair for that to happen to us?

 

I have asked for the names, descriptions and resemblances to our dragon be changed, and at the same time we will change the dragon so that it will look different in the future.

 

Please, just for everyone's sake - leave this be. Please stop.

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http://prntscr.com/eak869

WOAH GOT SOME TRACERS ON OUR HANDS

http://prntscr.com/eak953

SOMEONE CALL THE ART POLICE WE GOT A TRACER

http:// /eak98s

WHAT IS THIS OVERWATCH LMAO LOOK AT ALL THESE TRACERS

 

That pose was so generic that if you google "horse walking" it will match nearly every stock photo you see. By the logic being used here all the images I've screencapped need to be taken off the internet and destroyed.

This is like saying that Da Vinci should sue any work which depicts a human in the anatomical position because he drew the original Vetruvian Man, and especially considering that poses aren't protected under copyright ANYWAY, I conclude that this is more horse-dung (keepin it PG13 on this here forum) than anything that comes out of the animals depicted in the given stock photos.

 

(im only really this adamant because i liked the original ones better, and it sucks that such great designs got replaced by someone else's rendition because the self-proclaimed art police decided to make Valentines Day the target of their latest witchhunt).

These are all different enough that they DON'T line up exactly, except for ones that are together in the same image and appear to have been done by the same person. Those ones only line up with each other. On the other claw, the Cermvros sketches did line up EXACTLY with another picture.

 

Look at PieMaster's post at the top of this page. (134) He explains how that's a problem.

 

Oh, and the originals STILL can't be used because the sketch for the adult was publicly available while it was supposed to be secret.

Edited by Dusky_Flareon

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The sketch being available, even if it was on the 100th page of "My crappy sketches - don't look," is still a breach of the contract and makes the original dragon unusable. The super extra closeness / tracing issue seems to be a bolster. Thank you, TJ for clearing up what happened. I kinda hate that you have to keep explaining and explaining.

In my opinion TJ should not have said anything about the tracing. The breach of contract was enough to have it pulled.

 

It seems incredibly malicious to smear the name of two artists - with no REAL proof, only speculative images provided by someone who went through every single image on one of their DA's (according to Tazzar, anyway, the one image EEF was accused of tracing was from six years ago).

 

If TJ had just explained about the breach of contract it would have been fine. That is a legitimate enough reason. But his post made it seem like the tracing was "needed" in conjunction with the contract breach.

 

There was no need for him to incite all of this drama, and there is only TJ to blame for the tracing argument, in the end.

 

 

Still. Tazzay's PF post says they would like the species to be removed entirely - are we going to continue ignoring that?

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The artist agreement says art has to be replaced with a "suitable replacement," but since they were so new to the site, couldn't a "suitable replacement" have been an entirely new dragon instead?

 

 

 

TJ posted on the 17th that he had been in contact with one of the spriters the night before...so, that would be late the 16th or early the 17th. The drop was over, people had hatchlings. And suddenly they poof and everyone has to run out to get new eggs? And they might not be purple if there were no purple concept available. And the eggs would not have the 14th as the day they were caught. Some people set a lot of store on the date thing, even for normal releases.

 

No matter how it was handled it was going to be a hot mess. And I don't care to get into tracing or copyright or anything else. I can't draw to save my life. Even my stick figures are a joke.. But the sketch did violate the agreement and that is not TJs fault.

 

I did like the first s1 hatchie, but actually I like the new adult better for some reason known only to my brain and its perceptions. No criticism to anyone.

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Yes, I used to trace. Keyword - USED to. I did this to help learn anatomy a while ago (back when i was 11/12 - 2008/2009 - note this) Then I moved onto odeen says she does, looking at pictures and trying to imitate the pose, but with drawing a different picture. A lot of artists do this to learn.

what about all that traced art you got caught trying to pass as your own on tale of dragons and dc

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This has quickly gone off-forums due to the ease of typing in an IRC instead, so I'll leave you with more brainstorming Para + Pika + I are doing and call it a night.

 

 

 

The thing I was wondering about the Metal + Antler idea is, if they're choosing a specific metal and mixing it with their antlers, they must be able to adjust the magnetic output of their antlers- basically, account for how heavy the pearl is and how strong or weak the magnetism is for varied metals. (For example, Iron, and Cobalt are magnetic, while others like Aluminum or Tin are more affected by magnetism.)

 

Since what's inside the pearl would be a mystery to dragons other than the pearl creator, the weight of pearl vs metal and the required output to make it 'float' would be difficult to figure out.

I love all the mental images you guys are giving me with the juggling and jerks xd.png

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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We're still having fun, and relieved other people are interested! (-waves at Aurae-)

 

 

 

 

Yep, but I was thinking that story-magic shouldn't be overpowered- there should be reasons and limits on them! Not that I'm saying it's impossible or unreasonable, just that it would be easier (or require less magic/energy) for a dragon that knows the makeup of the pearl it's using. ouo

 

Consider how sports balls (soccer-, volley-, or medicine) vary- while you can run up and kick them all with the same power, they'll be sent different distances due to what they're made up of and their weights. If you know what you're dealing with, you can kick with less or more force and save your energy. (Also, if you kick a medicine ball you might hurt your foot! That brings up an interesting idea; do dragons end up needing the pearl to nullify or regulate the energy they're putting out?)

*wave back*

 

I like the idea that it's down to magnetic fields and not the ultimate fantasy excuse of "magic". Metals are so connected with dragons that it makes perfect sense when you think about it. smile.gif Interesting that perhaps they require it to regulate energy but that would make the pearl a sort of power-sink, wouldn't it? How would that work?

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