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Zill_15

Dragon size comparison

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It would be cool to see the dragon's sizes compared to each and everyone. Like maybe a large panoramic picture in the Encyclopedia that includes all the breeds. Greyed out dragons would remain greyed in the portrait.

 

Maybe something like this from the MH4U universe.

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I like the idea, not a fan of the suggested implementation for a few reasons. Given that there are nearly 200 dragons in cave now, with this number increasing in the future, I feel an image like the one linked will have the same problem that image already has- many dragons (the smaller ones in particular) get lost very easily.

 

That aside, practically it would mean extra work for the artists- sprites won't be able to be used for this kind of chart. Not without blowing them up or shrinking them to the point where they lose detail either way, it would need to be new artwork done similar to the concept arts some artists already release, not to mention that the chart will need to be updated with every new dragon release. Likewise, I feel like a visual representation doesn't quite allow for individual variances- generally, sizes of species are given within an average range rather than a fixed figure.

 

With all that said, I feel like adding a height/size field to the Encyclopedia entry of a dragon where the artist can include a figure range would be a simple solution that is minimal effort on the part of artists & TJ to implement, as well as allowing us to have this information that we can then take and make a chart if we want to.

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I'm 100% on bluesonic's page with the chart. Much easier to implement, much easier to add new breeds to. And if there's a dragon where the artist refuses to give an estimate, so be it.

 

However, in the past this kind of suggestion has come up, and been shot down for reasons I don't clearly remember.

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On one level I definitely agree. But then I think about trying to actually do it. I think at this point it's too late. There's too many dragons whose creators are long gone but never left any real idea about how large their breed is. There's also too many people who have different ideas about how large dragons -should- be. Like I personally think of my Guardian about the size of a rhino, but given that we have dragons the size of mountains, it had better be bigger than that if it's going to have half a chance of defending anything. So even if someone had left a "it's the size of a rhino" somewhere, they might want to rethink that as the concrete sizes of other breeds start coming in, but if they're gone they can't do that.

 

It would also mean that we'd have to figure out how big the mint really is... I personally think it's a shame that it can't be retroactively made a pygmy, since it seems pretty obvious that it's that small. But that would kill any lineage project that involves mints... So instead it's this strange tiny dragon that can breed with dragons the size of mountains. xP

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On one level I definitely agree.  But then I think about trying to actually do it.  I think at this point it's too late.  There's too many dragons whose creators are long gone but never left any real idea about how large their breed is.  There's also too many people who have different ideas about how large dragons -should- be.  Like I personally think of my Guardian about the size of a rhino, but given that we have dragons the size of mountains, it had better be bigger than that if it's going to have half a chance of defending anything.  So even if someone had left a "it's the size of a rhino" somewhere, they might want to rethink that as the concrete sizes of other breeds start coming in, but if they're gone they can't do that.

 

It would also mean that we'd have to figure out how big the mint really is...  I personally think it's a shame that it can't be retroactively made a pygmy, since it seems pretty obvious that it's that small.  But that would kill any lineage project that involves mints...  So instead it's this strange tiny dragon that can breed with dragons the size of mountains. xP

While I agree with most of this, I feel it shouldn't be used as a reason to hold back progress. A simple solution to the dragon's whose artists have left is simply to say "Unknown". Just because we can't give those dragons a measurement doesn't mean it should hold back those who we can have measurements for.

 

Not sure about the "too many people who have different ideas about how large dragons -should- be"- if the concept is yours, it's between you and TJ. Just because there are some dragons larger than yours doesn't devalue the Guardian's protective abilities, it could never have protected 100% against everything anyway. But if it really does bother you, why not consider giving a magic/mana "lore boost", much like the few dragons in DC who fly using magic rather than wings? Your concept shouldn't changed based on what other people are doing.

 

Again, that's not an issue, it's just a small dragon. And there are many things in the DC universe that come down to "it's just game mechanics"- take a look at TJ's DC Lore AMA and you'll quickly see him repeat himself on this. It's not a concept that would be novel to DC either- think about Pokemon and how their breeding works. I just don't think that's a valid reason to discredit a size comparison suggestion. Many of us would like to have a clearer image of what these dragons represent to you as the artist.

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Ohhh, I always though a Guardian's withers were about 7 or 8 feet tall, so just up past a human's head.

... and there's the biggest reason that creating an accurate dragon size chart would be difficult. There is a size chart that is fan-made, but it's just that: fan-made, which means it's based entirely off of speculation and the few breeds we have that do have noted sizes. I personally think that having an official size chart of each breed would be awesome, though there is the problem of dragons with unknown sizes that prevent chart completion, as well as the mentioned issue of smaller breeds being invisible at a glance. Thinking about that, I don't think we could do a panoramic chart with the amount of dragons and variety of them we have. What we could do though is separate the dragons out by their breeding groups and/or holiday seasons, so that there are smaller chunks to worry about, and simply have each dragon be a separate silhouette so re-sizing, blending, and losing detail are not problems (tooltip identification would be needed for silhouettes, since some breeds have similar poses. Unknown dragons could just have a blurred "fog" image). There is a question of the art though, since blowing up or shrinking down a sprite causes jagged, blurred edges... The best thing to do there would be to have someone resize the sprite appropriately, and then trace the outline and fill it with a solid color, so that there aren't blocky edges; problem here is that it could infringe on existing artist permissions concerning editing the sprites/making duplicates of them in some form.

 

So in short I believe it's plausible to have an on-site chart, even if it would be incomplete (and drive my OCD crazy), but it's definitely less work for everyone involved to keep a fan-made one and continuing to speculate. There's also the option of putting a Size field in each encyclopedia entry like what Bluesonic suggested, that could be as accurate as "exact feet/meters" or as vague as "large as a hill", which would do just as well. In terms of work, this is definitely a more favorable option.

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Ohhh, I always though a Guardian's withers were about 7 or 8 feet tall, so just up past a human's head.

It probably is that size, or bigger. "Rhino size" is just something I had in my head, but what matters is it being big enough to actually stand up to mean dragons. It can't do that if it's small compared to the rest. That's what I mean about some people needing to reference the sizes that other dragons are before being able to say what theirs is. Some people probably just have "average" as their idea about how big their dragon is, and average depends on how big other dragons are.

 

 

 

If it's just the dragons that have people around to give info on, that's reasonable. Probably a single size comparison with a human for each that can somehow be available on each breed's encyclopedia rather than a big overall reference image with a ton of dragons.

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I believe the creator of Mints mentioned them as being about the size of a small car, and at the time of creation they were the smallest (now I think the smallest dragon that isn't in one of the NSEGs is the Sweetlings, since IIRC they're, like... dog-size? Maybe smaller?). So there's a vague idea of how big Guardians are. But I fully admit I could be misremembering.

 

That said, I still think that having some idea of size is better than nothing. A simple average size range section in the encyclopedia would be the best solution, since it's the easiest to implement... and "not enough data" is a perfectly acceptable entry for dragons whose creators didn't leave behind a concrete idea of size.

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The idea of mints being the size of a small car is not logical. If they were, given that mints "are much smaller than other forms of dragons", it would imply that all other dragons are probably at minimum close to twice that size, with most being elephant size and larger. It exemplifies the problem with people having different head canon on the sizes that dragons are. The person who started the idea that they were as big as a small car must imagine all dragons as being behemoths if the smallest can still be the size of a car. However, there are normal dragons that are small enough to live their lives in the trees, which would be tough for even a car sized dragon. (I'm going to try to not derail this anymore into talking about exact sizes of specific dragons, but that "mint the size of a car" thing has always bugged me)

 

 

I think the thing to do would be to get a first pass "this is how big my dragons are" from each creator, then re-evaluate things based on that information. If someone says they're dragon is average size and then gives a elephant as a concrete example, and then it turns out that the average is more like horse, then that person should either re-evaluate the "elephant sized" or the "average sized". It would be tough to rectify all those different head canons, but it has to be done if there's going to be reliable size information available. At least once it's done the new dragons would be made with official dragon sizes in mind, so no rectification needed.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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I believe the creator of Mints mentioned them as being about the size of a small car, and at the time of creation they were the smallest (now I think the smallest dragon that isn't in one of the NSEGs is the Sweetlings, since IIRC they're, like... dog-size?

Er - chihuahua or Irish Wolfhound ? We are actually no further ahead here !

 

To be honest this is one I can't get excited about. I imagine my own at whatever size works for me - and that seems to work OK. Even for breeding laugh.gif

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/GTqqr

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In my opinion the very fact that the artists' head canon for various breeds is so varied is the reason we don't have this already. I think the artists' head canon should be secondary to a cohesive whole as conceived by TJ. I have head canon for all three of the breeds I concepted. I'd rather change that than have it be unworkable with other breeds.

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The person who started the idea that they were as big as a small car must imagine all dragons as being behemoths if the smallest can still be the size of a car. However, there are normal dragons that are small enough to live their lives in the trees, which would be tough for even a car sized dragon.

This perhaps assumes that all trees on Valkemare are earth-sized trees. With so many different breeds of what would be classed as megafauna running about, I would argue that at least some forests and jungles on Valkemare would actually be made up of very, very large trees, perhaps boosted to be thus by natural infusion of mana. I have always imagined humans in the Valkemarian landscape to be small and insignificant compared to the features of the world in which they live.

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What if the artistd had a tool with a standard sized little person and a slider to embiggen various dragon breeds based on how big we think they are next to a tiny person that records sprite dimension in meters so bossman can then go through and adjust where he feels fit so we can make this like a thing idk does that make sense

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I personally don't want an official size chart because it would ruin the possibility of headcannons. I like to think of turpentines as around the size of a great dane at the shoulder. They are supposed to be small and numerous. Some people don't like dragons that small though. Personally I would rather leave it to people's imagination.

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While leaving this open to headcanons is interesting and fun, having some idea of how big dragons are in general would be very useful. As someone who likes to roleplay using these dragons, knowing about the world and the lore and the sizes of these dragons is very important!

 

So I'm all in favour of some kind of general size range, in whatever form it happened to be.

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What if the artistd had a tool with a standard sized little person and a slider to embiggen various dragon breeds based on how big we think they are next to a tiny person that records sprite dimension in meters so bossman can then go through and adjust where he feels fit so we can make this like a thing idk does that make sense

If I am understanding this correctly, yes please!

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Yes, this! I have a really hard time understanding the difference in size among various dragons given that there is no visual indicator in encyclopedia that compares them all side by side. The linked image is not what I have in mind, it's too messy. But something like the wilderness page, as in one large vertically scrolling image where the sprite/artwork sizes are proportionate to show their real size differences.

 

A scale comparing them to human size would also be great like Marrionetta suggested.

Edited by Amaterasu-sama

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I think an image of the dragon beside a human figure would be the most helpful.

 

Even with that I probably would pay no attention. I sort of have my own concept of how big they are and don't really need to know what anyone else thinks. wink.gif

Edited by purplehaze

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I don't remember who made this chart but it has been around for a long time.

 

http://postimg.org/image/voa71bgct/full/

That chart is very useful, and it seems to currently be the go-to chart for dragon sizes.

 

However, it's entirely fan-made; therefore, it's not canon, and it's not always up-to-date (it doesn't include the latest November release dragons, for example) because not everyone has enough time to be working on such things constantly.

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I don't remember who made this chart but it has been around for a long time.

 

http://postimg.org/image/voa71bgct/full/

Am I doing something wrong? Because when I enlarge the image so I can see anything at all about it I can only see the left side over as far as the hellfires and there is no scroll bar or anything to let me see the rest of the image.

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Right click and choose "view image". You will see the image and nothing else and once you go full size you should have a scroll bar.

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Am I doing something wrong? Because when I enlarge the image so I can see anything at all about it I can only see the left side over as far as the hellfires and there is no scroll bar or anything to let me see the rest of the image.

There's no left/right slide bar, but I can slide by using my trackpad. Not sure how to manage that with a computer mouse, though. o.o

 

~

 

I agree a slider bar is the best way to achieve an official size chart.

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Right click and choose "view image".  You will see the image and nothing else and once you go full size you should have a scroll bar.

Okay. I do get a slide bar when I do that, but the image doesn't enlarge enough for me to read the dragon names on the boxes. It is very little larger than the original image.

 

And Sock, when I try to use my trackpad it just moves the little magnifying glass thingy around, but does not scroll the image over, even if I go all the way right.

Edited by purplehaze

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As was said before, that's a fan-made chart. Glancing at it, I can say that most of those dragons are shown as being smaller than the size of what T.J. considers the smallest dragon on the site, which is the mint (about the size of a compact car).

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