Allow "Foreign Characters" in Dragon Names

[TJ09]

I am someone that speaks/reads Japanese, and I would love to name my dragons in Japanese instead of just typing out the words in letters. Would be nice.

I don't believe this suggestion covers allowing characters from non-Roman Alphabets in names.

[blah]

I would like to propose that, if this were to be added, that normalized names would still need to be unique. i.e. Ëďŵåŕđ Ĕĺŗĩĉ and Edward Elric are the same (after normalization), so if someone names their dragon Ëďŵåŕđ Ĕĺŗĩĉ, you can't have another dragon named Edward Elric.

But they do change meaning. 'Würde' in German means 'dignity' and 'wurde' means 'became' for example. So that would be completely different names and not an attempt to use the same name twice.

 

All in all I've always been in favour of this suggestion though I agree that we should stick to the Roman alphabet.

Edited December 6, 2016 by blah

[Fuzzbucket]

I take your point - but I still think that Würde and wurde (as an example) have to count as the same name. Also Animé and anime.

 

Otherwise name search would be a nightmare, for starters.

[cyradis4]

I take your point - but I still think that Würde and wurde (as an example) have to count as the same name. Also Animé and anime.

 

Otherwise name search would be a nightmare, for starters.

This.

 

And despite your assurance that they mean different things.... they look and read the same to me, a plane jane English speaker. I would most certainly use the accents to get around the name constraints.... if I were allowed to.

 

That's how most people would use them.

 

Also, I do not support non-Roman Alphabet characters. Too many people don't have the proper fonts, and to be frank.... I can't tell any of the letters apart. I may not understand what Wurde means (I don't), but at least I can recognize it as writing. For the non-Roman alphabets, I can't see that. And many English only speakers are the same way.

 

This is an English speaking site, so please keep it to things all users can at least see as writing. If we were on a Japanese site, I would *not* ask for nor expect to be able to use the Roman-alphabets to name dragons, because Japanese only speakers would have trouble with it. Please have the same courtesy here, on this site.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[diaveborn]

Don't people name their dragons for themselves, not so other people can be pleased by the names?

 

And if a dragon is named something, of *course* it's writing. It's either numbers or letters just like every other dragon name.

 

I get that this is an English-based site but I personally think that only needs to be kept to things that affect people's gameplay or understanding of the site and you not being able to read or recognize someone else's dragon name doesn't affect any of that.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by diaveborn

[Wildmoon]

Unicode fonts are installed in every computer made... people not "having the right fonts" wouldn't be a problem...and you should be able to read a letter with a few dots over it no problem. They look pretty much exactly the same as the usual letter.

 

You say that you would not expect a "japanese speaking site" to use romanised spellings because those users would have "trouble with it" (which btw, is probably untrue since I've been to Japan and romaji/english spelling is used quite a lot more than you'd imagine there,you'd be surprised.)

 

but, your argument is that YOU would have difficulty reading something that is still an english based alphabet..an alphabet most of the world uses, with a few accents. In fact, English is probably the only language that doesn't use accents in its letters.

 

I also, get that this is an english based site, but hundreds of users aren't English. But yet, we're expected to name our dragons in English?

 

sorry, it just sounds a little bit hypocrytical, and like diaveborn said, does someones dragon being named something not english REALLY affect your gameplay that much?

You don't have to know what it means, anyway. And if it really bothers you so much, ask the dragons owner.. >.>

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm not quite sure what your point is here. I can read French and German - language and letters - with ease, and I can pronounce Polish and Estonian up to a point - I do find Finnish beyond me. And I WOULD use accents and umlauts in names if I have the chance. But I still think that we need to treat ü and u and é and e as two letters rather than four. Unicode or not. And there is no "should" about it.

 

And YES we are expected to use the language of the site. Just as I am with every single forum I am on. Most are English; one is French. When I go to amazon.fr, I don't expect it to translate itself to English to make my life easier. As for amazon.jp - I've managed that when I've had to. It wasn't easy. That's life on the web.

 

If we want to use our own languages, we have to find sites created in that language. I'm lucky that this site happens to be in English. But if the game were in Finnish, I would still use it, and not understand a word on this forum. People who create sites have the absolute right to make language rules and just because there are users who speak other languages does NOT mean they have to make those languages - or their characters - available.

Edited December 7, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[diaveborn]

I hate the "we need to use the language of the site" argument. Because people who would name their dragons in a different language *would* still be using the language of the site to read the site rules and gameplay. People are acting like there is calling for the site to be translated to every language users might have as their first language or that we should set up multi-language areas in the forum.

 

People naming their dragons whatever they want does NOT affect anybody else. And to say "well it's an English game, therefore you just must deal with it" seems selfish when the only thing I'm seeing people say is "I don't want to look at other languages when I see dragon names".

[Pokemonfan13]

Trickseh, I'm pretty sure cyradis4 was talking about non-roman alphabet based characters, like Japanese, when they were talking about not being able to tell the characters apart and the concern about not having the right fonts. The letters that are mostly like the ones in English, but just have some extra accent markings are what this suggestion is suggesting and what (I think) cyradis4 supports.

 

I agree that we should limit any character expansion to the languages that use alphabets closely related to the English one. Even if English speakers don't know how a given accented letter from a different language is pronounced, we can still make a rough sense of how the word is supposed to be. We might butcher the pronunciation when talking about that specific dragon, but at least we'd be able to try. A string of characters from a completely unrelated alphabet, like Japanese, is going to look like gibberish to anyone who doesn't know that language.

[diaveborn]

Even if English speakers don't know how a given accented letter from a different language is pronounced, we can still make a rough sense of how the word is supposed to be.  We might butcher the pronunciation when talking about that specific dragon, but at least we'd be able to try.  A string of characters from a completely unrelated alphabet, like Japanese, is going to look like gibberish to anyone who doesn't know that language.

Again, why does anyone else need to know what a dragon's name is? Why do we need to be able to try to pronounce it? People name their dragons for themselves.

 

Also, it's completely possible to have something that looks like gibberish with the characters we currently have available. I've had this dragon and this onefor a while and their names are meaningful... to *me*... I deliberately tried to make them look like a name but I could just as well name a dragon an unpronouncable keysmash and I would hope nobody would complain to me about it.

Edited December 7, 2016 by diaveborn

[cyradis4]

Again, why does anyone else need to know what a dragon's name is? Why do we need to be able to try to pronounce it? People name their dragons for themselves.

 

Also, it's completely possible to have something that looks like gibberish with the characters we currently have available. I've had this dragon and this onefor a while and their names are meaningful... to *me*... I deliberately tried to make them look like a name but I could just as well name a dragon an unpronouncable keysmash and I would hope nobody would complain to me about it.

Yep, what Pokemonfan13 said. Understanding is not necessary, I've got many names that are pure gibberish.... but anyone who is familiar with the English alphabet can see them as distinct *writing* and can tell the letters apart. They recognize each letter as conveying a specific meaning. They don't have to know what it means, but they can see that it has meaning, and can tell the letters apart.

 

Japanese, and the other non-Romance alphabets, have zero meaning to me. Most of the non-Romance alphabets, all the letters look the same to me, they convey.... nothing. That is, when they displays properly. Often its just boxes. Yes, people name their dragons for themselves. But this is an English speaking site, so everyone on the site pretty much has to at least be able to read the letters as language.

 

As for the Japanese and other foreign countries understanding English, I'm well aware that in a great many countries English is taught in grade school to everyone, so most people in Japan will see English letters as writing. I, and a great many others who are native English speakers, don't have that benefit. And as a result.... Don't associate those scripts with meaning.

 

And the fact remains: I would never be so rude as to demand a Japanese site to cater to my English only needs (yes it IS considered rude, I've heard many comments from foreigners about Americans asking for English and how rude it is), and I think its not unreasonable to ask that the speakers of other language alphabets extend us that same courtesy on English speaking sites: by using the Romance alphabet.

 

And yes, I support Tj's suggestion for the accents, because I know that how I'd use the accents is to get around the one-name-per-dragon rule if something like that weren't implemented. Then of course people would whine about it, despite it being predicted.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

Again, why does anyone else need to know what a dragon's name is?  Why do we need to be able to try to pronounce it?  People name their dragons for themselves.

For one thing - for name searches.

 

As for hating the "argument that we have to use the language of the site" - there is exactly nothing wrong with that. It is - if nothing else - a courtesy to the site's creator. As cy4 says - you wouldn't expect a Japanese or Ukranian site to have to accommodate English just because you want it to. Cy4's right too - English and American people have a shocking reputation for shouting louder and louder to MAKE people understand because they SHOULD speak English, I well recall when I was in Russia an extraordinarily rude American in the main rail station screaming at the poor girl in the ticket office; my partner, who can read cyrillic and carries - as we always do - dictionaries of the countries we visit - helped him to book a train - just to give the poor girl some peace - but he didn't exactly help him find the most convenient option... But I bet if a Russian person had been at a New York station, that guy wouldn't have thought it OK for them to insist on someone speaking to them in Russian.

 

It is indeed rude to try and force your language into countries where it isn't the native tongue - and whether you like it or not, this site is - basically - American. I hate it myself when my descriptions are corrected for spelling. Because I'm NOT American, and I prefer colour, centre and so on. But when I complained to a mod - years ago now - it was pointed out to me that this is a site where American spelling is the default, and (basically !) "get over it". And - fair enough, actually. I still hate it - but...

 

As to "it's selfish" - excuse me - TJ has made all this (in his language) for us to use FOR FREE ? How selfish is that ? How MEAN can he get, giving us the game and the forum ? I would say, rather, that it's selfish to expect anyone being selfish enough to create such a great free game to add your language just because you want them to.

 

Also - and this is no small point - it is TJ who is legally responsible for this site. If someone starts to name their dragons in an obscene or racist way in characters he, and the majority of players, cannot recognize or understand - we could in the end see the whole place shut down. Sure name your dragon ssxpztywvvg - I've no quarrel with that. It makes a kind of sense in a way that あなたの知りたいことを導き出すメニュ does not.

 

And if you allow names in other alphabets, sooner or later this will show up on the forum:

 

なぜこの卵を放棄できないのですか？

 

Hate the rule all you like - but if you want a site in your own language - you will need to look elsewhere. Part of what holds the sites together is the language we ALL use and have to use.

Edited December 7, 2016 by fuzzbucket

[Starbit]

I believe the OP was only asking about accented characters, which I'm happy to support as the English language also uses them sometimes. Completely different alphabets though such as kanji or cyrillic, no - All of our mods speak English and I am sure that for many it is their first language. They need to be able to moderate and translating sites are not a solution, as they are notoriously bad especially for non Roman alphabets.

 

Other people need to understand your dragons name to make sure it won't offend or upset, and the Mod team are not C-3PO.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Starbit-Plushie

[VixenDra]

I'll be stupborn about the google translator It's clumsy, true, often riddiculusly clumsy, but still, would recognize voulgar words which was the primary reason against those:P (while still people can use voulgarisms in their dragon names using the English alphabet and your only way to find out and report/moderate is to check in some translator because otherwise you wouldn't know it's vouldgar )

the other being coding as squares, searching names(Btw what is that name search used for actually? how is it useful? So far I've only managed to use it to verify if the name I wanted to use was really taken, instead of using forbidden character(s)), people not recognizing the letters as letters and... understanding (really?) and... "It's an English site, it's rude to ask"(O_O)... um...

 

From the above, just BTW:

https://translate.google.pl/?oe=utf-8&clien...%83%8B%E3%83%A5 doesn't make much sense to me but at least I can see the words used aren't voulgar or anything, so I wouldn't mind that used as a name...

https://translate.google.pl/?oe=utf-8&clien...%81%8B%EF%BC%9F this one got translated well enough to be meaningful though:P

 

 

As a sidenote, English is not my native language, yet when I surf the Net or go abroad (as a tourist) I expect at least some people to be able to communicate basic things in English anyway because at the moment(for quite a while already btw) English is the closest to be an universal international language of the sort Esperanto was intended for (but Esperanto never worked, actually why should one learn this artificial language while there's English already with plenty of speakers -on various levels but still).

If nowadays someone who's any younger than in their 40s or so doesn't speak English *at all* I consider them poorly educated to be honest(actually, not aducated at all...)... and, worse, if they work in such posts as any kind of checkout desk, information, secretary, hotel, police, hospital etc. (basically any proffession that is likely to encounter a foreigner needing a service from them) I consider them irrespinsible and not qualified for the job... They don't need to have a perfect correct English and know all the vocabulary, tenses and grammatical structures etc. but at least some basic communication level... They can speak like 'He don't need ticket because he not walk and have papers to it with he' but they simply should speak SOMEHOW and be able to communicate the most basic things SOMEHOW^^; even if it's as lame as in my example, I'd still expect them to be able to speak like this at the very least:P And to understand simple sentences like "Can I have a ticket to Warsaw, please?" "How much is it?" even if the non-English person wouldn't be able to produce such nice yet simple sentences on their own and if they were to ask the same things e.g. like this "Ticket for Warsaw?" "How much money?" (in context you'd understand what they want even if they speak so lamely:P)

But yeah, English is kind of special for how wide-spread it is:) And I'd rather say it's low and lazy of those people(or arrogant of countries if they don't teach a foreign lg at schools... the wisest is to teach English for it's usefulness) who don't speak English at all and scream it's rude you ask for English specifically... It would be rude of me if I was asking for my moherlanguage though Because it's a hellishly difficult lg to learn and also because it's taught nowhere I think? While English is widespread:)

 

 

 

 

But it's not that I'm insisting, accents would be enough and nice.

 

I also don't really get it why the dragon names should be THAT unique... and why the name search is so useful(but that's me, I simply haven't found any 'useful use' for that^^; ) that it reappears hare as one of the main contrarguments? Anyway:

Why not allow a regular letter AND 1 accented version of it used in the same place (instead of "them all" or just 1: normal OR accented)? What I mean:

We can't use "%" sign in names right? why can't "%"(or some other forbidden sign) code any accent for a given letter in the search if put after it or framing it? This way we could have wurde AND würde coexist but not wúrde if würde is already in use. In search you'd need to type wu%rde (or w%u%rde) in order to find that accented version of wurde whatever accent is in use while typing wurde would lead you to a non accented wurde only. I know, these two accents for u can coexist within 1 language like Spanish(right?) but still, it would allow a bit more of dragon names than if it's just 100% normalised... I mean I could name a dragon Zbik and another one Żbik but then noone can name a dragon Źbik. If you want to find my Zbik you type zbik, if you want to find my Żbik you type z%bik (or %z%bik) - I hope I made this suggestion clear enough^^;

-it's a middle ground, still closer to TJ's suggestion.

Edited December 7, 2016 by VixenDra

[Wildmoon]

Sorry, I hope Sinne (the name of the alt who posted the above message didn't come off as too rude)

 

I've been stressy lately so my dissociative disorder has been a bit chaotic, there's been days im not taking meds, ect.

 

all because the christmas rush

 

She probably wanted to start an argument, and mistook what you said, or whatever, it's what she does. She's quite troublesome, but at least it wasn't as bad as things could of been =P

 

I do agree that the readability of names shouldn't be an issue - I did only mean the accented characters, not Japanese Kanji, or Cyrillic, or Hangul, or whatever - those languages can still be easily read in their romanized form. The accented characters still, for the most part, resemble the English Alphabet, and as TJ has said, it would be possible to search for the name and have it show up as if it wasn't written with the accented characters.

 

The only issue for that is that the name would not still be unique from a word not using the accent.

eg:

varsi and värsi, would still show up as being the same name, even though they do actually have different meanings.

 

which actually wouldn't be too bad, because you could use a simple suffix like, for example, I use a "T" in the name if it's already taken. so I could have a dragon named T's Värsi , and another just named Varsi.

 

The only other way (using the alt codes for unicode characters) would be incredibly complicated, and would make no sense when shown as a name.

 

for example, with the windows unicode alt codes, Värsi would become V0228rsi, and that's just way too complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pinkgothic]

For one thing - for name searches.

I don't understand this usecase because I'm stupid. Why are you searching for names you can't either copy and paste from somewhere (e.g. when looking at a particular dragon's page), or can type yourself (e.g. when naming your own dragon)?

[diaveborn]

For one thing - for name searches.

...

As to "it's selfish" - excuse me - TJ has made all this (in his language) for us to use FOR FREE ? How selfish is that ? How MEAN can he get, giving us the game and the forum ? I would say, rather, that it's selfish to expect anyone being selfish enough to create such a great free game  to add your language just because you want them to.

Name searches don't have to be pronounceable and again I could make something with what we currently have in place that is hard to pronounce.

 

Also I'm not saying it's selfish to not have this implemented in the game. TJ can do whatever, and I'm pretty sure there's coding stuff that I have NO idea about. I am saying it is selfish for people in this thread to say or heavily imply "I don't want to look at other languages when I see dragon names" and to center their own aesthetics when they say "such and such doesn't look like a language to me". That's all I'm saying.

Edited December 7, 2016 by diaveborn

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't understand this usecase because I'm stupid. Why are you searching for names you can't either copy and paste from somewhere (e.g. when looking at a particular dragon's page), or can type yourself (e.g. when naming your own dragon)?

FOR INSTANCE (not long ago) I wanted to gift an egg to someone who had a dragon of a particular name, as the code was rather good for that. I knew I'd seen the name somewhere. And I did find it. (Annoyingly, the owner didn't have their scroll name showing, but at least I was able to try !)

[diaveborn]

I'd like some other examples if you have them, because if a dragon name is in a language someone doesn't recognize at all, that situation with someone thinking a code relates to that name isn't going to come up in the first place.

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd like some other examples if you have them, because if a dragon name is in a language someone doesn't recognize at all, that situation with someone thinking a code relates to that name isn't going to come up in the first place.

I don't see why another example is needed. PinkGothic just asked why anyone ever needed name search. I gave one.

 

It doesn't actually alter the fact that I feel VERY strongly that we need to stick to the Roman alphabet.

 

With TJ's proviso.

 

I would like to propose that, if this were to be added, that normalized names would still need to be unique. i.e. Ëďŵåŕđ Ĕĺŗĩĉ and Edward Elric are the same (after normalization), so if someone names their dragon Ëďŵåŕđ Ĕĺŗĩĉ, you can't have another dragon named Edward Elric.

[diaveborn]

You technically answered the question but it has no bearing on this thread and if you don't provide any other examples, why would I not continue in my thinking that a change to non Latin/Roman alphabets in names wouldn't actually affect anybody negatively (aside from possible coding issues that aren't being addressed because we don't know about them)?

 

I'm done with this thread, the going around in circles is stressing me out.

[Fuzzbucket]

I never said it had a bearing on this thread; I was just answering the question put to me. Though it does in fact - those of us who DO use name search would be affected.

 

But those who like to be able to see what a dragon is called would be affected.

[AppleMango]

Name searches don't have to be pronounceable and again I could make something with what we currently have in place that is hard to pronounce.

 

Also I'm not saying it's selfish to not have this implemented in the game. TJ can do whatever, and I'm pretty sure there's coding stuff that I have NO idea about. I am saying it is selfish for people in this thread to say or heavily imply "I don't want to look at other languages when I see dragon names" and to center their own aesthetics when they say "such and such doesn't look like a language to me". That's all I'm saying.

I agree.

People are going to name their dragons in other languages no matter what, so I don't see what's wrong with them being able to use the correct characters, whether they are the English alphabet with accents or characters from other languages. You aren't going to be able to understand it either way, in fact it will be EASIER to understand if it's written in the correct alphabet because you will be able to copy and paste it into google translate and get an idea of what it means.

Just because it doesn't look like an alphabet or readable to you doesn't mean it isn't.

 

@fuzz (mostly)

As for name searches - I don't think this is a fair point. AERgaerh or WARESTHYJ would be valid names, that you would be able to "read" or recognise as characters, but wouldn't be able to remember to search. So why shouldn't foreign characters be allowed just because you can't read them, even if they make more sense than something you can read?

I think diaveborn wanted another example because the example you used for a name search only applies when you can read and understand the name. If you can't read it and understand it - you aren't going to think of it when you see a code that could relate to it, so it's not really a point that makes sense against foreign characters.

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually no. I would not recognise chinese or cyrillic characters as letters at all.

 

And I might well remember a name like ahgpvj6hjc if I had ever been aware of it.

 

Just because it doesn't look like an alphabet or readable to you doesn't mean it isn't.

 

No - of course not. But this kind of thing would only serve to confuse, I think.

 

[AppleMango]

Actually no. I would not recognise chinese or cyrillic characters as letters at all.

 

And I might well remember a name like ahgpvj6hjc if I had ever been aware of it.

 

 

 

No - of course not. But this kind of thing would only serve to confuse, I think.

 

If you care enough about what the name is - you can paste it into google translate. It will come up not only with a translation, but also how to read it underneath.

 

As long as they are where the names are, it's easy to tell it's a name.

Edited December 8, 2016 by AppleMango