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Odeen

Relax moderation of discussion forums

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Maybe if the mods additionally PMed the reasoning behind the warn to the user in question

 

A few years ago, users requested to get PMs for warns because they found the warn percentage bar hard to notice and one person ended up getting two warns for something before they noticed the warning. I'm not positive that all mods do PM, but at least some of us do due to user request.

 

I never figured out how to share dragons by posting lineage links until I started looking at other people's posts, so maybe that could be added in to any "No eggspam" warns? It could also be added in to the eggspam buffer in the posting system itself, so instead of simply saying "You can't do that", it says "You can't do that BUT you can use the equivalent...", and explain how to retrieve lineage links so people can share their dragons without breaking the rules and without removing the any rules, since they were set up for a reason.

 

I do edit posts like this when applicable (such as when view links are posted in trades or Great Lines in the AP), and I believe most the SD mods do (I have seen "please use lineage links" edited into several posts in places where it's appropriate to share dragons), and we typically do not warn for that (we might if someone did it a dozen times, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that). Heck, usually we just fix the link for the person, as that's an easy mistake to make (the only time I remove links instead of editing is when the person has a lot of links and all of them are /view/ links). However, we typically don't edit/warn eggspam the same because that would be a bit misleading, imo. Even if you use a lineage link, you still aren't allowed to post just to ask for views.

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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What you are missing is the psychology behind the warns.... and how it affects those who try hard not to break the rules. It was TJ's dismissive "1 isn't a big deal" that has people upset: to him and you, its not a big deal. In the over all scheme of things, its not a big deal.

 

To those who try to follow all rules, all the time? Its a really big deal.

 

<snip>

Actually, I think the forum is incredibly well modded overall. What upset me is the attitude that one warn is nothing at all. Don't get yourself worked up...

 

As C4 said above...

 

Telling someone who takes rules very seriously to just shrug it off, no biggie, is rather like telling someone with a phobia about heights that they'll be fine way up on that ledge. It's perfectly safe! Riiiiight. And the big wide open out there really won't reach up and drag me over the edge.

 

It's NOT a choice, ok? I'm phobic about heights, I'm phobic about closed in spaces, I'm phobic about bridges and I'm phobic about being corrected for things that I post despite trying hard to stay within the rules. Yes, nightmares sometimes.

 

Don't tell me one little warn is no big deal. I can tell myself you're right all day. Myself doesn't listen.

 

I know you need a system to keep track of who's following the rules and who keeps thumbing their noses. The current system works pretty well, except when the mods don't enforce it evenly or one jumps the gun a bit or something. And I think there's some petty stuff that may get warns that really isn't necessary. The tendency to chatter a bit in the news thread may be an example. God knows I've posted there less and less because you can't just relax and enjoy the excitement with other excited users. You'll get warned for spam.

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I 100% agree with all of this, but was way too afraid to bring any of it up. There are still questions I have that have never been answered about DC because of "gentle reminders" that were, what you would call, excessive strictness. Can't remember all of the things I asked, but I do know they were never answered and I was too afraid to ask further on them because of this strictness.

 

I have always felt this place was way too cold, distant, detached, superficial, unfriendly, impersonal, uninviting, and even communistic, which is why I don't have much to say. I dare say the damage is done though. If things were to change, I've been through it already and don't feel inclined to put myself out there for further "gentle reminders" that I'm asking something ever so slightly off topic. And those questions were in the "tiny little questions" thread. I was told to go look something up in a thread I couldn't spend a hundred years filtering through to find a single answer to my question. I honestly didn't understand why I couldn't have just gotten an answer, but whatever. Honestly, coming here to post anything, at all, ever... it just felt like having to sneak across enemy lines and put myself at risk.

 

I'm just glad someone actually brought this up, though I don't think it will help, imho.

Edited by SlyFox

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As far as I remember, this won't exactly work out. How are the mods supposed to keep track of who did what and how often? The only way to put down notes where every mod can access them is through giving said person a warn. (At least that's what one of the mods (Sock?) said the last time this topic came up.)

If that's the case, TJ should have upgraded the actual systems when the forum was changed (if that wasn't done already). Most sites I'm on have ways for mods to have private notes about a user. A private mod forum, notes directly on profiles, or a special notes feature. Its really not that crazy.

 

We shouldn't be getting warnings for every. teeny. tiny. thing. if warnings are so pointless and meaningless. Staff should look into alternate ways of handling them (relaxing rules, verbal warnings, private notes) if they really are completely useless.

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Meh, there are simple warns are there are BIG things. Things like being CENSORED because I refused to shut up on a topic I felt strongly about. My warns went all the way up to having my posts censored before being posted, to a temporary ban. I wasn't even allowed to post my opinion in my signature and it was removed as well.

 

So don't say this place is a paradise, it's NOT. If your opinion differs enough, you'll get CENSORED and worse. But I won't back down again either. I am NOT a TJ fangirl and I don't think TJ is god. Most of the time I just don't bother to post, but the only way they'll get rid of me forever, is to give out a permaban and burn my scroll.

 

However, I do not want the modding to go away. I just want it to be consistent for everyone and I don't like being told to shut up because my opinion isn't the same as TJ's.

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Apparently the "newest unread post" button doesn't actually take you to the newest unread post. >.<

 

Now I'm confused again... first you say that they're relaxed, and then you say their mod policy is annoying? Wouldn't that policy have to be enforced for it to be annoying? Now it just sounds like you're saying that the site has bad mods that don't enforce the site rules...

 

  

Before I comment on this, I want to make sure of something, because then I read this:

  

You made it sound like the threads there are always derailing onto off-topic content, but then you give that as an example, so now I'm not sure just how "off-topic" you mean? When people were talking about relaxing warns against off-topic discussion I figured they meant the out-of-left field stuff, like you said, especially since the mods here don't seem to get after people about little things that aren't spot-on to the topic, but also aren't off-topic. It's only when I see completely off-topic stuff go on for a couple of posts do I see a warn (such as one case where two users started discussing their avatars instead, which wasn't relevant to the thread at all). I can understand warns being a little unnecessary in the News and Site Discussion forums, since those areas are filled with chatter as-is (the former with excitement and intrigue, and the latter with whatever the individual thread's topic is), but I still don't see how it is restrictive in the other forums...

 

   Oh, also I think what Sock was trying to say is that the point of your story fell a little flat, since you were frustrated by the way the mods on another forum enforced their rules and how much it hurt you, and then used it in your argument to relax DC's rules, even though DC doesn't enforce its rules the same way and as such the "pain" from receiving a warn would be different. *Shrug* That's how I interpreted it, anyway.

I really don't understand how this is confusing. You've been making a lot of assumptions about a forum you never even visited and trying to use one story to justify why the DC forum is perfect as-is/completely superior to this other forum. You know absolutely nothing about that forum except for the small story I told to try and help illustrate why/how warnings can upset people (which was completely lost on everyone I guess) and then what I elaborated on when you started to make assumptions.

 

You do realize that forums can be relaxed in some ways and restrictive in others, right? Just because I dislike the way they pass out warnings and why does NOT automatically make the forum a cesspit, horrible, worthless, terrible, etc. There are plenty of good parts to it like I said, and I'd like to see those good parts here on DC. People don't have to be all-or-nothing on whether or not they like a forum (or anything else) as a whole. There can be both good and bad in something. Sometimes the bad outweighs the good (DC forum, to me) and sometimes the good outweighs the bad (the other forum, to me). If you can't see how that's possible, well, I'm sorry but I don't know how else to explain it to you.

 

I'm not going to go into full on crazy detail about what that forum is about because its completely and totally off-topic (and, quite frankly, no one has any right or need to know what that forum is about because its not their business). I'm sorry you misunderstood the XYZ comment but I'm not going to give you information that's completely irrelevant to the topic we're discussing here. I used X, Y, and Z to show that the things are NOT considered off-topic on a normal, healthy forum. XYZ are all directly connected in the alphabet so I chose them to represent similar points in a discussion. A is obviously a lot different, but its still a letter. I guess the A isn't overly descriptive or clear but I didn't (and still don't) know how else to quickly try and say "a topic that's still directly related to what the thread's OP discusses but is vastly different in a way that would net you a instant warn on DC".

 

There is a huge difference between completely unrelated things (politics in a Falconiform discussion thread) and completely reasonable, natural, normal evolution of a discussion (bringing up dragons with similar lore or physical traits in a Falconiform discussion thread). From what I understand the second would be completely and totally unallowed here on DC and net you an edited/deleted post plus a shiny new warning. Not a single person here is advocating for the first. What we want to be able to do is the second - have natural, flowing discussions without crazy strict "you MUST stay 100% on topic to the original post only". I've never seen another forum do that. Its unnatural to how humans communicate.

 

Also, I'm perfectly capable of being frustrated by warnings on different sites differently. Just because I tried to illustrate my point with a story doesn't mean I can't separate DC and that other forum. I know they're different in pretty much every way. I doubt there's much overlap in users. I'm pretty sure they don't share a single staff member between them. I'm completely able to see that myself. Its pretty rude to assume I can't separate the two just because I tried to help Sock see what they seemed to not at all understand.

Edited by shortaxel

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A few years ago, users requested to get PMs for warns because they found the warn percentage bar hard to notice and one person ended up getting two warns for something before they noticed the warning. I'm not positive that all mods do PM, but at least some of us do due to user request.

 

I do edit posts like this when applicable (such as when view links are posted in trades or Great Lines in the AP), and I believe most the SD mods do (I have seen "please use lineage links" edited into several posts in places where it's appropriate to share dragons), and we typically do not warn for that (we might if someone did it a dozen times, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that). Heck, usually we just fix the link for the person, as that's an easy mistake to make (the only time I remove links instead of editing is when the person has a lot of links and all of them are /view/ links). However, we typically don't edit/warn eggspam the same because that would be a bit misleading, imo. Even if you use a lineage link, you still aren't allowed to post just to ask for views.

 

Oh, I didn't know about that! Did the warns work at all? It actually sounds like now that the warn bar tends to be ignored more than a verbal warn or a PM, so it might be a good idea to make PMing warns a standard... Unless those users actually began to request not having warns be PMed at all.

Hm, I saw before that some eggspam links were changed to lineage links, but I wasn't sure if all mods did it, so that's good; I imagine users who are actually desperate for clicks/views, and show it in their posts, are also directed to adoptable sites so their eggs don't die (correct me if I'm wrong here).

 

Though, I'm looking through the site rules, and it just occurred to me...

No Spam

No one likes spam, it clutters the board, so don't contribute to the problem. Messages that do not contribute to the topic or forum are considered spam and the poster will receive a warning.

That's the spam rule; it doesn't say "posts that aren't on-topic are considered spam"; it specifies "messages that don't contribute to the topic or forum are considered spam". Am I just being a compromiser here and trying to see a solution that doesn't exist, or does this mean something different? o: Maybe we just need a better definition on what is considered a contributory post or a spam post in the site rules, so that people know just how off-topic is spam-worthy off-topic? Then we can pinpoint what in particular the community doesn't think is spam-worthy?

 

PRE-POST EDIT: This is what happens when you go inactive when writing a post; new ones come in! tongue.gif

 

I really don't understand how this is confusing. You've been making a lot of assumptions about a forum you never even visited and trying to use one story to justify why the DC forum is perfect as-is/completely superior to this other forum. You know absolutely nothing about that forum except for the small story I told to try and help illustrate why/how warnings can upset people (which was completely lost on everyone I guess) and then what I elaborated on when you started to make assumptions.

I'm making assumptions because all you gave me was one snippet, which was all I had in order to try and interpret your story, because your story came across as "This forum did this which made me upset, and I don't want DC do end up the same way/put me in a similar situation where I feel this way". I'm not sure what else to do with it if that wasn't your intention.

 

You do realize that forums can be relaxed in some ways and restrictive in others, right? Just because I dislike the way they pass out warnings and why does NOT automatically make the forum a cesspit, horrible, worthless, terrible, etc. There are plenty of good parts to it like I said, and I'd like to see those good parts here on DC. People don't have to be all-or-nothing on whether or not they like a forum (or anything else) as a whole. There can be both good and bad in something. Sometimes the bad outweighs the good (DC forum, to me) and sometimes the good outweighs the bad (the other forum, to me). If you can't see how that's possible, well, I'm sorry but I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Yes, I realize that forums are mixes of good and bad. I'm not saying DC is perfect, and I'm not saying that the other forum is horribly imperfect; what I was saying is that I believe that this particular aspect of DC (the mod policy) is fine to me and doesn't need to be changed despite your comparison. I was confused about the other forum because you sounded contradictory, which made me assume that the mods don't enforce the rules there that the users (or at least I) would expect them to; that was simply an off-hand comment to emphasize my confusion, which was directed to your contradictory statement.

 

I'm not going to go into full on crazy detail about what that forum is about because its completely and totally off-topic (and, quite frankly, no one has any right or need to know what that forum is about because its not their business). I'm sorry you misunderstood the XYZ comment but I'm not going to give you information that's completely irrelevant to the topic we're discussing here. I used X, Y, and Z to show that the things are NOT considered off-topic on a normal, healthy forum. XYZ are all directly connected in the alphabet so I chose them to represent similar points in a discussion. A is obviously a lot different, but its still a letter. I guess the A isn't overly descriptive or clear but I didn't (and still don't) know how else to quickly try and say "a topic that's still directly related to what the thread's OP discusses but is vastly different in a way that would net you a instant warn on DC".

I'm not asking you to elaborate on the forum itself. I was wondering just how different the two topics were when you said "off-topic"; everyone has their own little definition (from what I've gathered from this thread and past experiences on other forums), so I wanted to make sure that our "definitions" matched before I commented on it. Though, you seem to explain that a bit better in this:

 

There is a huge difference between completely unrelated things (politics in a Falconiform discussion thread) and completely reasonable, natural, normal evolution of a discussion (bringing up dragons with similar lore or physical traits in a Falconiform discussion thread). From what I understand the second would be completely and totally unallowed here on DC and net you an edited/deleted post plus a shiny new warning. Not a single person here is advocating for the first. What we want to be able to do is the second - have natural, flowing discussions without crazy strict "you MUST stay 100% on topic to the original post only". I've never seen another forum do that. Its unnatural to how humans communicate.

If our definitions match then yes, I agree that slight changes in the topic that can still be relevant to the thread's original topic is fine; but I have never seen such a case on DC where that slight change received a disciplinary action. The only cases I have ever witnessed are ones where the topic change did actually stray from the topic; people weren't talking about anything related to the thread itself anymore. Yes, humans do tend to digress, especially when in active discussion, but if something completely unrelated to the discussion at hand (as drastic as changing from "what did you name your dragon" to "these are the skateboards I like" (the bridge being "I named my dragon after a skateboard I like")), I can understand the mods jumping in and saying "Please keep the discussion relevant to the topic" (because the topic isn't about skateboards, it's about what you named your dragon and why).

 

Also, I'm perfectly capable of being frustrated by warnings on different sites differently. Just because I tried to illustrate my point with a story doesn't mean I can't separate DC and that other forum. I know they're different in pretty much every way. I doubt there's much overlap in users. I'm pretty sure they don't share a single staff member between them. I'm completely able to see that myself. Its pretty rude to assume I can't separate the two just because I tried to help Sock see what they seemed to not at all understand.

Did I say you were incapable of behaving differently to warns and/or incapable of separating things? Maybe I'm wording my posts wrong; I don't remember saying that though. O.o I do remember saying that your story didn't seem to work for your argument though... At least for me it wasn't very convincing, and since Sock was confused I had tried interpreting it myself, which is why I commented on it.

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just because I tried to help Sock see what they seemed to not at all understand.

 

and since Sock was confused I had tried interpreting it myself, which is why I commented on it.

I wasn't confused. There was a post talking about a warn system that does not apply to our own, so I explained how warns work here. I haven't addressed people's personal feelings towards warns because there's no point in arguing their feelings.

 

I'm really not even arguing with anyone in this thread (I did debate a bit on duplicates because I've personally never understood why forums hate necro'ing so much, but that doesn't mean that I am unwilling to or unable to adapt to a change in policy). I'm simply explaining where things came from and why they are currently done the way they are, in case any explanation helps inspire new or different compromises/ideas. This does not mean I'm against change or that I won't adapt to change should the way things work change, nor does it mean I'm dismissing people's feelings just because I don't write out replies to them.

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and since Sock was confused I had tried interpreting it myself, which is why I commented on it.

I wasn't confused. There was a post talking about a warn system that does not apply to our own, so I explained how warns work here. I haven't addressed people's personal feelings towards warns because there's no point in arguing their feelings.

 

I'm really not even arguing with anyone in this thread (I did debate a bit on duplicates because I've personally never understood why forums hate necro'ing so much, but that doesn't mean that I am unwilling to or unable to adapt to a change in policy). I'm simply explaining where things came from and why they are currently done the way they are, in case any explanation helps inspire new or different compromises/ideas. This does not mean I'm against change or that I won't adapt to change should the way things work change, nor does it mean I'm dismissing people's feelings just because I don't write out replies to them.

Twasn't your post that elicited the heartburn, twas TJ's.

 

Anyway.... Back on topic!

 

You mentioned earlier that the rules are being re-considered. Can you tell us if these are under consideration for change?

  • Forced necro'ing: people seem good with 1 year since last post necros, its the older that are a pain
  • Relax off-topic warns: let the topics flow more
  • BSA sub-forum: let us post "support as is" without considering it spam
  • BSA sub-forum: split it up (I offer to link the threads to split them up, if you want. That's how badly I want it).

Anyone else know of any points brought up that I missed?

 

Cheers!

C4.

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  • BSA sub-forum: let us post "support as is" without considering it spam

  • BSA sub-forum: split it up (I offer to link the threads to split them up, if you want. That's how badly I want it).

Anyone else know of any points brought up that I missed?

Having the same rules apply for general suggestions and BSA suggestions would be useful. Maybe mods could simply clear out long suggestion threads every once in a while and delete all posts that just say "support" or "don't support" without contributing to the discussion? The "yes/no"don't care" stats of deleted posts could be edited into the OP. Provided, the mods are ok with the extra work xd.png

Polls would also work, but changing our vote would be nice - maybe after the forum upgrade?

Edited by Ha-Ki

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If that's the case, TJ should have upgraded the actual systems when the forum was changed (if that wasn't done already). Most sites I'm on have ways for mods to have private notes about a user. A private mod forum, notes directly on profiles, or a special notes feature. Its really not that crazy.

The forum's actually not been changed as far as I'm aware. TJ overhauled its theme, but as far as I know that was only cosmetic changes. I'm not aware of any actual forum functionality that's been changed, and the answer to requests for core changes has pretty consistently been "can't/won't modify the existing software, maybe one day we'll upgrade but don't hold your breath." I also hear via the grapevine that the latest version of the software this forum uses is absolute garbage, so there's that. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the legendary eventual upgrade was to a completely different software package, which brings a myriad of challenges and headaches.

 

There is a huge difference between completely unrelated things (politics in a Falconiform discussion thread) and completely reasonable, natural, normal evolution of a discussion (bringing up dragons with similar lore or physical traits in a Falconiform discussion thread). From what I understand the second would be completely and totally unallowed here on DC and net you an edited/deleted post plus a shiny new warning.

With all due respect, are you sure the second is actually a Thing? I could swear I've seen exactly this in a release thread, most recently with Dark Lumina vs. Lumina discussion, and I don't recall seeing any moderator presence in or around those posts.

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Pff wow, I completely misinterpreted Sock. Sorry about that. xd.png

 

  • Forced necro'ing: people seem good with 1 year since last post necros, its the older that are a pain

  • Relax off-topic warns: let the topics flow more

  • BSA sub-forum: let us post "support as is" without considering it spam

  • BSA sub-forum: split it up (I offer to link the threads to split them up, if you want. That's how badly I want it).

 

If we change anything at all, I think having the BSA sub-forums would be the most beneficial, especially the first one; TJ does seem to implement things based on his own whims, though he would have to take some community input on these things or he would implement a bunch of stuff that would make him lose players. I don't know how much he cares about that, but the subforum would definitely be a good place to gather community input in case it's needed. I'm thinking about how it would work though... would it be a forum with threads referencing the particular BSA, and then asking for yeas/nays on it? Or would it be like the "starter place" for BSAs, and the BSA forum itself will only have threads that have the OP of a BSA thread, plus any significant arguments for/against it as well as a tally of community support/lack of support?

 

EDIT: Fixed the quote.

Edited by skwerl56767

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Meh, there are simple warns are there are BIG things. Things like being CENSORED because I refused to shut up on a topic I felt strongly about. My warns went all the way up to having my posts censored before being posted, to a temporary ban. I wasn't even allowed to post my opinion in my signature and it was removed as well.

 

So don't say this place is a paradise, it's NOT. If your opinion differs enough, you'll get CENSORED and worse. But I won't back down again either. I am NOT a TJ fangirl and I don't think TJ is god. Most of the time I just don't bother to post, but the only way they'll get rid of me forever, is to give out a permaban and burn my scroll.

 

However, I do not want the modding to go away. I just want it to be consistent for everyone and I don't like being told to shut up because my opinion isn't the same as TJ's.

I'm lazy. Thanks for posting something I can fully agree with.

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Telling someone who takes rules very seriously to just shrug it off, no biggie, is rather like telling someone with a phobia about heights that they'll be fine way up on that ledge. It's perfectly safe! Riiiiight. And the big wide open out there really won't reach up and drag me over the edge.

 

It's NOT a choice, ok? I'm phobic about heights, I'm phobic about closed in spaces, I'm phobic about bridges and I'm phobic about being corrected for things that I post despite trying hard to stay within the rules. Yes, nightmares sometimes.

 

Don't tell me one little warn is no big deal. I can tell myself you're right all day. Myself doesn't listen.

 

I know you need a system to keep track of who's following the rules and who keeps thumbing their noses. The current system works pretty well, except when the mods don't enforce it evenly or one jumps the gun a bit or something. And I think there's some petty stuff that may get warns that really isn't necessary. The tendency to chatter a bit in the news thread may be an example. God knows I've posted there less and less because you can't just relax and enjoy the excitement with other excited users. You'll get warned for spam.

Thank you for sharing this Fi, I know that couldn't have been easy. I'm with you on the same boat too, I had a falling out with a mod here over a warning that was given and I had nightmares about it for a long time, and I still think about it today even. And thank you Odeen for starting this thread; even now I'm nervous about replying but I'll go ahead with my views anyway. The point I have the most particular beef with is the off-topic warns. In my case, the mods gave actual warns for off-topic talk, and one of my posts got mistaken for off-topic because I was cracking a joke, and well I'm not a comedian. That, got me a warning %. I was already nervous about posting in news threads, now I really have to force myself to be social and in smaller releases I just avoid it altogether.

 

The red text in your own post as a mod, I completely understand- in forums like these and especially the release threads, you need a way for your post to stand out to everyone. I'm on board with this. I take some beef though with straight up editing people's "off topic" post and marking it as "spam". Only part of it was off-topic yet the whole thing was removed. Also, that's not what spam is; at least note that it was off-topic instead of making us look like criminals. The level of censorship on these forums is pretty high, even if the modding team doesn't want to admit it- I'm not going to say what sites I peruse in my free time, but all I can say is DC has a reputation for it among those who know of DC, and they sadly even have the evidence to support this in some cases via screenshots.

 

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is something that I think no one else has addressed up to this point. I'm never going to say who it is I spoke to, but I was absolutely shocked to find out that the moderating team(s) here don't have an general instruction guide or "manual" by which to follow, which explains all the inconsistent behaviour. This is very bad managing practices in general, forum stuff aside. I've been working on forums for more than a decade now, as well as having worked in managerial roles in real life and running my own business- I've never seen a situation where workers didn't have some kind of job description guide they could follow for consistent practices. This is why some mods give verbals and others % warns for the same "rule breaks". My suggestion is for the mod team to be sitting down with TJ and working out consistent guidelines by which they moderate with. I'm sure you "all know what to do by now" but it's still necessary to have it out in writing for when things go wrong (we're all human and make mistakes, and even sometimes just forget).

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I would like to say that I think the mods are doing a great job as is. Especially compared to the absolute mayhem that was going on when I first found this site.

 

Now I think I've been warned once and warned verbally twice that I remember. Both verbal warns were exceedingly polite and we actually had a nice conversation about it. I was even thankful for one of them because I'd been stupid and hurtful without realising it. The issue I think I was warned about (it might've been just my post deleted idk) was probably justified and even then I talked to the mod and it was a normal conversation. It was however "opinion about TJ censorship", the TJ worship has always been a problem, I quite agree.

 

But overall I can't say the mods throw around actual warns before talking or even verbally warn without prompting and they've been really ready to talk it out. It is very unfortunate that some people find it difficult or impossible to handle warns but ultimately I think it is human interaction and needs mutual understanding from both sides. People don't want to break the rules, mods don't want to warn people to hurt them.

 

Off-topic is always problematic. For the people who talk it's no big deal but I absolutely despise it as a reader when I'm trying to find info on the actual topic! Off-topic is really something that annoys the heck out of me. Especially in suggestion and trade threads. But I do think there are areas where it should be treated less strict, most of all news. Not sure about lineage threads but that is another area I think is fine with a bit of chatter.

 

Unpopular opinion: I like the thread necro'ing. Usually suggestion threads run their course. Either it's a good idea and people hash it out and fine tune it and then nothing ever happens because TJ doesn't implement it or it's a bad idea and people abandon it.

 

There are currently at least 3 threads discussing tabs (or something like it) for scrolls. At this point I don't even care anymore I just want it to happen. I don't need another thread about it and discuss it all over again. And usually it's only things that people liked in the first place that get merged.

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Honestly, I think the biggest problem is something that I think no one else has addressed up to this point. I'm never going to say who it is I spoke to, but I was absolutely shocked to find out that the moderating team(s) here don't have an general instruction guide or "manual" by which to follow, which explains all the inconsistent behaviour. This is very bad managing practices in general, forum stuff aside. I've been working on forums for more than a decade now, as well as having worked in managerial roles in real life and running my own business- I've never seen a situation where workers didn't have some kind of job description guide they could follow for consistent practices. This is why some mods give verbals and others % warns for the same "rule breaks". My suggestion is for the mod team to be sitting down with TJ and working out consistent guidelines by which they moderate with. I'm sure you "all know what to do by now" but it's still necessary to have it out in writing for when things go wrong (we're all human and make mistakes, and even sometimes just forget).

And what makes you think there isn't? Just because there isn't something that you can see doesn't mean there's nothing.

 

Here's TJ earlier in this thread:

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=9308090

(the context of what he quoted matters, IMO, so I decided to link instead of quoting)

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And what makes you think there isn't? Just because there isn't something that you can see doesn't mean there's nothing.

 

Here's TJ earlier in this thread:

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=9308090

(the context of what he quoted matters, IMO, so I decided to link instead of quoting)

Like I said in that quote, I'm not going to say who I spoke with, but it was someone from the mod team and they said mods here didn't have a guide, and you all worked off general notions you'd built up over the years. Is this guide then actually available to ALL mods from all sectors of the forum? Or do different mods have different hidden boards? (I ask because if Fi, in that linked post, also got her information the same way I did, then there are mods who aren't aware of a guide being posted for them/can't see this guide).

 

Do you feel then this mod guide is explicit in what kind of punishment should be given for the different kinds of rule breaking? Or could it be more clear with regards to these grey areas of "kinda off-topic in the news thread". Because that's something TJ mentioned earlier from that link you posted, the section he quoted from the guide was written with a specific section of the forum in mind, yet that section isn't specified in that writing. That hints to me that there are areas of the guide that can be more specific in that sense, like off-topic being stricter in suggestion threads than news threads.

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Assuming there's a "manual for mods" or "guidelines for mods", I doubt there's a way to enforce those. In corporate environments, you can publish guidelines and policies and you can still be sure that many users will just go their merry way, ignoring policies, procedures, guidelines, manuals, FAQs. And there is no way to really enforce those unless you keep monitoring the users 24/7. If corporate environments can't, I doubt that a relatively small organization like this forum can, considering resources or lack of. Who "polices" the police?

I do not know about you, but I think that to report a mod's behavior is just a waste of time. There are good chances that the mod receiving the report is a good friend of the subject. On top of that, if someone was chosen by TJ, probably has his trust.

Nah. I will just swallow my opinions and when I'm sick of that, I've a good option: stay away from here until I forget.

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[*]BSA sub-forum: let us post "support as is" without considering it spam

As I recently got a warn for posting that I supported a BSA suggestion, while making a comment that I should start stocking up on that dragon, I would love for this to happen. There's not much you can add to a well-thought-out BSA, and then the topics just rot and look like no one wants to have them implemented in the game because no one dares comment to them beyond a bump whenever they finally fall off the front page, or several months pass. Usually the month thing since that forum moves so slowly, for pretty much this exact reason. No one ever comments there, which means no one ever looks there, and then even if they might have a good suggestion for one of the threads they never go there anyway.

 

It's a problem.

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Assuming there's a "manual for mods" or "guidelines for mods", I doubt there's a way to enforce those. In corporate environments, you can publish guidelines and policies and you can still be sure that many users will just go their merry way, ignoring policies, procedures, guidelines, manuals, FAQs. And there is no way to really enforce those unless you keep monitoring the users 24/7. If corporate environments can't, I doubt that a relatively small organization like this forum can, considering resources or lack of.

It's not about having a guide to "police the police", it's there so that when issues do occur, they can be found easier and resolved faster. So for example, if the problem is inconsistent modding despite the guide being clear about what they should or shouldn't do, instead of arguing about each other's POV you can simply point to the guide and say "This is how things are done, please do it this way next time.", which is what corporations actually do. We write out the guides and we don't expect employees to follow them to the dot because we trust their judgement, but if they have doubts about something, or something goes wrong, it's the easiest and best tool to resolve the issues. Much more efficient as opposed to the current situation where mods have posted in this very thread saying some prefer % warns, some prefer post edits and some prefer verbal warnings. Everyone needs to be able to be on the same page and they can't do that if they don't have a page to reference to.

 

Also silver_chan brought up an excellent point that I'd forgotten about- many times I agree and support BSAs but won't post anything unless I can contribute to the idea because otherwise the post is considered "spam" o__o

Edited by bluesonic1

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As I recently got a warn for posting that I supported a BSA suggestion, while making a comment that I should start stocking up on that dragon, I would love for this to happen. There's not much you can add to a well-thought-out BSA, and then the topics just rot and look like no one wants to have them implemented in the game because no one dares comment to them beyond a bump whenever they finally fall off the front page, or several months pass. Usually the month thing since that forum moves so slowly, for pretty much this exact reason. No one ever comments there, which means no one ever looks there, and then even if they might have a good suggestion for one of the threads they never go there anyway.

 

It's a problem.

I agree with this.

I don't think it is spam. I think it is a person who is throwing their opinion with the OP or whatever. I think it shows support and it pushes the topic up to the front again.

It is contributing to the discussion. No one wants to be the only person to agree on a side. I feel like I would love to be able to show support for something without being afraid that I would get modded over that.

 

We don't all have to be inventors and come up with new ideas. I think you need the supporters too. If we don't show support for a topic/suggestion/BSA that we like then there really would be no point in having that thread at all except to argue because at some point...all the parties will come to an agreement and then what? no one is allowed to say that they too like that idea?

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As I recently got a warn for posting that I supported a BSA suggestion, while making a comment that I should start stocking up on that dragon, I would love for this to happen. There's not much you can add to a well-thought-out BSA, and then the topics just rot and look like no one wants to have them implemented in the game because no one dares comment to them beyond a bump whenever they finally fall off the front page, or several months pass. Usually the month thing since that forum moves so slowly, for pretty much this exact reason. No one ever comments there, which means no one ever looks there, and then even if they might have a good suggestion for one of the threads they never go there anyway.

 

It's a problem.

With the notable exception of "fun" BSAs that don't affect the game mechanics at all. Because everyone can come up with just another cute little idea that fits the suggestion.

 

However, a BSA suggestion that is thought through with all kinds of details and what-if-scenarios probably won't get a single post in there unless it's a "don't like it" because everyone who likes the idea has nothing left to add. Which, in turn, looks like nobody likes this suggestion anyway.

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With the notable exception of "fun" BSAs that don't affect the game mechanics at all. Because everyone can come up with just another cute little idea that fits the suggestion.

 

However, a BSA suggestion that is thought through with all kinds of details and what-if-scenarios probably won't get a single post in there unless it's a "don't like it" because everyone who likes the idea has nothing left to add. Which, in turn, looks like nobody likes this suggestion anyway.

There isn't really a way to enforce that. Perceived usefulness vs something that's fun is sometimes obvious, but sometimes the lines blur. Honestly IMO it doesn't hurt just to allow "support" posts for all BSAs.

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Sorry if I am repeating points already made, but I occasionally play Puzzle Pirates. It is a dead game and the forums are even more dead, but even there necroing old threads is heavily frowned upon because the information in them is years old and no longer relevant with new updates and changes in playerbase, and it confuses new users with outdated info.

 

I love the suggestions board and it is the only place I feel I actually have anything to contribute anymore, but trudging through 30 page long threads that started years ago not only discourages people from contributing but makes very little sense. I know of no other forum - and I've been on a lot over the years - that support it.

 

I don't feel like there is anywhere on these forums I am able to join in, and the ridiculous necro rules are stifling the last subforum I am interested in.

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There isn't really a way to enforce that. Perceived usefulness vs something that's fun is sometimes obvious, but sometimes the lines blur. Honestly IMO it doesn't hurt just to allow "support" posts for all BSAs.

Seriously, Odeen - can you show me one BSA suggestion that affects game play vs one that totally doesn't and tell me where the lines blur ?

 

Cheese sandwich; prank, knit, storytelling - fun (for some) but do not in ANY way affect the actual game.

 

Accept one part of a trade, search filter for breeding, more accurate breeding times - do affect the game.

 

Where is the overlap ?

 

(Not that I mind at all about "support" being a legit post in suggestions - I never understood why it wasn't.)

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