Raise odds of successful zombification

[Fuzzbucket]

Sigh. 8 dodged, two died.... I'll keep trying and hope for the best on 31st...

[Cinspawn]

On 3/31/2018 at 11:37 AM, TJ09 said:

Many of the complaints involve getting enough inventory to even try zombifying, which is an issue that is addressable separately from zombie success rates themselves. I'm likely going to try two tweaks around the kill action, and see what downstream effects they have:

• Having the kill limit scale with trophies. It'll probably move from a flat five to four-per-trophy-level.
• Changing kill "dodging" to reset every hour instead of every day. I think it provides some interesting flavor, but it disproportionately affects zombie "fodder" more than anything else, and there's no particular reason it needs to be a daily thing.

These may not be enough, but I think starting with the top of the funnel is the right place to avoid overshooting and making zombies too common.

Bringing this back now that Halloween has (almost) ended. 

 

The dodging hurts the most. I have no idea what the revive odds are, they may very well be high-ish like 30% and then people just get unlucky. 

 

But I have prepared sixteen dragons for the day which is supposed to have the best odds in all of the year, the ONE day that it should be decent (?) odds... And I got 1 zombie. 

 

I had my 5 dragons killed in the two weeks before Halloween, and then of course the 5 you get on the reset. So I think it's 1 out of 11 attempts (I had a revive) of dragons that actually managed to die. 

 

Creating zombies creates so much planning and dancing around your kill slots... Only to be met with utter disappointment at the end of every Halloween event, because you get reminded of how horrible the odds are and how dare you get your hopes up. It's a very bitter ending of an otherwise awesome and fun event. 

 

Maybe the odds are fine. I don't know. I literally don't bother with zombies the rest of the year because of what I read in zombie success threads. But when you get an 'avoid' on that ONE day you look forward to and work towards to, you don't even get a chance to experience those odds. It's just such a slap in the face, "you prepared all this and waited on the best odds of the year... But here's this useless (?) mechanic so nah you get nothing, goodbye!" 

 

I think it's stuff like this that makes people roll their eyes and discourage playing. At least it does for me. I'm sorry for the wall of text, but I'm really disappointed at my turns this year. I can deal with being unlucky maybe. But to not be even given the chance after staring at that zombie fodder on your scroll just sucks. To literally read "there is no particular reason it needs to be a daily thing" yet it still was, sucks. 

 

So in short: I don't understand why the avoid mechanic exists in the first place, and I'd love to see it reset after 1 hr so we can actually try throughout the day on Halloween and not just walk into a wall andddd it's over for you. 

 

The fact I will now have to wait another year (or try every two months in a very, very frustrating way) for that one more zombie dragon type I wanted is... Extremely discouraging. Because yes, I settled on two more types this year. I'd love to collect them all but the entire zombie process is THAT frustrating and discouraging that I don't want to put myself through that. The frustration/stress is not worth the possible 'gains'. 

 

And that's coming from someone who LOVES grinding for low odd chances like a 0.1% drop in WoW or something similar. 

The grinding process in this game (for the zombies) feels unfair and deliberately skewed against us in all ways. Like it's deliberately* made this way so it will take literal years and years to reach a certain zombie goal. And I feel like no game should ever aim for that. 

 

*as in, artificially slowing the process, I don't think TJ is maniacally laughing and wants us to suffer, like some people seem to think

 

 I really hope you will read this, @TJ09. And to balance out my salty post, I absolutely enjoyed the rest of the event. I just think the whole zombie thing needs a bit of a rework. 

 

[Tetelestai]

10 adults killed (didn't pay attention to how many dodged, it was a lot), 2 turned. Had 16 hatchlings that I let die, 5 of them turned. Really bummed about the adults. Like Cinspawn said, it is really depressing to have so many failures. I, too, do not try to zombify on any day other than Halloween. Even making Neglecteds isn't this tough.

[HeatherMarie]

The dodging really is the biggest issue for me. I have TONS of zombie fodder now, so that's not an issue, but when 3 out of 5 attempts dodge... It's frustrating and annoying and why is it so dang hard to kill a dragon if we've done it dozens of times before? The thing is, too many dodges is just plain inconvenient. I have a huge group of 'potential zombie fodder', old dragons that were named long ago.... When I decide to actually kill a dragon, I have to unname it and then put that name on a 'placeholder' dragon so I don't lose the name. When a good 50%+ dodges, that's a lot of time spent moving names around for nothing. 

[Astreya]

@HeatherMarie

 

Why don't you just set up a group with your Zombie sacrifices and just rename all of them, say "HM's 2018 Fodder 001" etc, and then just work on them every 14 days or so? That way you don't have to move around names all the time. 

[Camilo543HF]

I don't agree we should raise them. Sure, it'd be nice to be able to get zombies easier but if it was so easy, what would be the point? Rarity would pretty much go out the window.  

 

Things aren't always given to us in life. Sometimes, we have to earn them.

[Fuzzbucket]

I got not a single one on Hallowe'en. I WOULD like to see the odds upped on that date at least. And fewer dodges.

[DragonLady86]

I didn't count dodges (a lot) but I got 5 distergrates and one non-zombie revival. On Halloween.  Not cool.

[Fuzzbucket]

My stats exactly

[Yubelchen]

I am neutral about this, had 2/5 this year so i am very happy, have 3 zombies now even when this was acually my second try to do so. So i might be lucky simply, but luck should still play a huge deal in that and when some are not lucky...well, good luck next year i guess. Zombies are in that way an "easy" neglected, random to get but possible compared to them being almost impossible to get but that mystery is solveable for some dictated people.

 

But if we get a BSA about this, i acually thinking about the regular old Stone Dragons for getting it.

Why? Logical thinking, how would you be able to get more kill actions?

I think sharping the sword to get a extra kill chance sounds pretty good, dragon scales are hard as hell and i dont like the idea that all can simply dodge to avoid thier fate, some could simply stand there and are like "you think that would hurt me?"

So having the Stone Dragon sharp your sword for a extra kill actions sounds nice, could be a onetime thing that they refuse to sharp your sword again now knowing why you are doing this.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Yubelchen

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

3 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

I didn't count dodges (a lot) but I got 5 distergrates and one non-zombie revival. On Halloween.  Not cool.

 

Same, although I didn't even get a single revival -__- I saw how many people were happy with their zombie successes in the News thread so tried myself and got nothing. Honestly so disappointed  

 

I really really support this suggestion. Even something small such as raising the odds on only Halloween I'd be happy with. Just something to make this a less fruitless endeavour 😕

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Zombies are just a conglomerate of frustration, unfortunately.

 

-- Even on the BEST DAY, Halloween, success rates hover at about 30%. Which isn't terrible until you realize that between adults, S2s, and S1s, there are 51 sprites to collect, and that's just if you only want one of everything.

 

-- Adult kill slots are extremely limited; with careful planning and no accidental vamp kills, you only get 10 chances per year. With the 30%-ish average, that means you're going to take 6 years on average to get one of every adult. Yes, you can try at other times, but the horrible success rates are very off-putting.

 

-- Dodges are rampant, so even dragons you've saved diligently as zombie fodder can slip the knife and ruin everything at the last minute. TJ suggested making dodge chance reset every hour (not sure if this was done?). Personally I'd rather see a much lower dodge rate that lasts a day. The first is that if you've stayed up just after midnight on the 31st to kill something, then waiting another hour for most of your things is a huge aggravation that not everyone can afford (I work--being up until after midnight is hard enough, much less waiting ANOTHER HOUR!). Dodge also exists at all for lore-based reasons, presumably, and if we're going to keep it for that reason than a longer cooldown then "haha it's been an hour, they've surely forgotten!" makes sense.

 

-- Not being able to remove the names from dead things, so if you accidentally stab the original "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" without remembering to remove the name, whoops, you're fat out of luck. Forever. And so is everyone else. It's just dumb. Removing names in advance is a thing (IF YOU REMEMBER), but it's also yet another tedious thing on a long list of tedious things.

 

-- ...And this is just a personal complaint, but while well-intended, I think adding a zombie variant for every body type was a mistake. I feel like it's going to subconsciously influence people to stick to established forms knowing any new sprite is now creating the extra work of needing a whole new zombie sprite. I actually submitted a sprite to TJ that had multiple legs (for a reason), and while he questioned the need for the extra legs for physiological and behavioral reasons, he also mentioned that they would need a new zombie sprite as a reason for hesitation... not good. I realize the cat's already out of the bag, though, but... bleaaaaurgh.

 

All of the above being said, I don't expect making zombies to be easy, but I think a few small changes would make them far more do-able.

• Slightly raise the success rate across the board
• Raise the amount of kill slots (perhaps based on trophy level)
• Reduce the odds of dodging
• Add a "remove name" option to dead things (maybe gravestones that have disappeared off your scroll could be kept in a new page called user/graveyard)
• And maybe make zombies visible from 6 PM--6 AM, so that all the hard work put in is actually VISIBLE to more of us.  

[Camilo543HF]

15 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

• Raise the amount of kill slots (perhaps based on trophy level)
• Reduce the odds of dodging
• And maybe make zombies visible from 6 PM--6 AM, so that all the hard work put in is actually VISIBLE to more of us.  

I second these

 

[Guillotine]

Halloween at the very least should have a much higher success rate, maybe even removing the disintegration chance entirely, and the rest of the year's "good" days (31sts at night) should be around current Halloween stats, imo. With the number of zombie sprites we have (that almost certainly will increase in the future, however slowly), the current rates are unacceptable.
 

[HeatherMarie]

28 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

All of the above being said, I don't expect making zombies to be easy, but I think a few small changes would make them far more do-able.

• Slightly raise the success rate across the board
• Raise the amount of kill slots (perhaps based on trophy level)
• Reduce the odds of dodging
• Add a "remove name" option to dead things (maybe gravestones that have disappeared off your scroll could be kept in a new page called user/graveyard)
• And maybe make zombies visible from 6 PM--6 AM, so that all the hard work put in is actually VISIBLE to more of us.  

 

Definite support! 

 

It really is a combination of so many different frustrations. I've said before, if there was just *one* major hurdle when making zombies, that'd be completely different. If it was *just* the dodges making things harder, or *just* the very limited kill slots... But it's just too many different things working against us. First, we have to actually have dragons of the different types to kill in the first place (which, with so many different zombie types now, is frustrating in itself). Then we have to *hope* that enough will actually *die* to attempt reviving at all, because often more then half of the attempts will dodge. Then we have to *hope* that one of our revivals will actually 'go wrong' and turn into a zombie, which even on the BEST DAY OF THE YEAR is still not good odds. We can only actually kill 5 every 2 weeks, which combined with everything else (especially the many different zombie forms now) is kind of horrible. 

 

I'd take anything at all improving, whether dodges decreasing or raising the amount of kill slots or (slightly) raising the actual success rate... While I'd love for *all* of that to change for the better, I'd be happy with even *one* thing changing. 

 

 

[GhostMouse]

52 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

All of the above being said, I don't expect making zombies to be easy, but I think a few small changes would make them far more do-able.

• Slightly raise the success rate across the board
• Raise the amount of kill slots (perhaps based on trophy level)
• Reduce the odds of dodging
• Add a "remove name" option to dead things (maybe gravestones that have disappeared off your scroll could be kept in a new page called user/graveyard)
• And maybe make zombies visible from 6 PM--6 AM, so that all the hard work put in is actually VISIBLE to more of us.  

Support all of this! 

[TerraAnne]

Thirdly support all of the above. I had so many dodges this halloween I went through all of the dragons I collected for zombie attempts and ended up going to my pipios which I was trying to make an army of, and to another breed I had an extra of.

[Haloclimb]

Supporting all of this. I collect two adults, two S2 hatchlings and an S1 hatchling, so if I want to complete my zombie collection I am going to be stabbing a LOT of dragons. Frankly, the thought of spending literal years churning through masses of dragons, jumping multiple hoops of dodging and having to choose the PERFECT time to revive just is frustrating as hell.

Honestly, if there was a 'bite' BSA that zombie dragons had that only turned up on Halloween or something, or you had better odds with the more zombies you kill, I'd be over the moon. I mean, better odds would make sense in-game as well- if you are practising necromancy practically every month, than it makes sense that you'd get better at raising zombies instead of disintegrating your dragons. Just, ANYTHING that I could actively work towards, to help improve my chances, rather than just hoping RNG doesn't kick me while I'm down.

 

(And from this halloween- 1 zombie out of 6 attempts, so now I'll have to grab yet more fodder.)

[Ruby Eyes]

Halloween didn't really feel like a "good" day for zombification at all. Higher odds my sit-upon.

[Soulsborne]

I've got a lot of dumb (beginner's) luck with 7/10 adults turning. That being said, I was and still am so sorry for everybody who only got 1 or no turns at all. Of course, that's completely disheartening!

 

I'd set rebalanced success chances roughly like this:

daytime -> 10%

nighttime -> 20%

31st -> ~33%

Halloween -> ~50%

[Zeditha]

Personally I'd like to see daytime zombie chances be almost nonexistent (and nighttime only a little higher); my reason is that if you're trying for a zombie, waiting for the end of the month isn't that bad, but if you're trying to regular revive, you're more likely to try when zombie chances are lower.

 

Basically make the zombie times more likely for zombies, and non-zombie times way less. (I'm talking like 1% or less for regular daytimes. In fact, I'd be happy if zombies were *impossible* in the daytime on a non-31st - zombies hate daylight!)

 

 

That aside, I am all in favour of higher Halloween/31st zombie chances, but I'm quite happy to see TJ suggest raising kill limits and reducing dodging first.

 

 

Personal %chance preference:

(time - revive/zombie)

day - 50/0

night - 45/5

31st - 30/20 (perhaps 30/30 at night)

Halloween - 5/60 (I think it very definitely should not be lower than 50% zombie chance on Halloween.)

 

 

I do wonder what the current chances actually are. Anyone got data on that?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Zeditha if you look at the zombie success thread you can probably calculate a good guess at the ratios. From what I saw I’d guesstimate around 30% on Halloween, 10% on the other 31sts. I don’t bother trying other times (and neither do many others), so don’t have a good idea on those chances other than that they’re not good.

[Fuzzbucket]

30% on Hallowe'en, eh ? I must be INCREDIBLY unlucky. I got zilch. All disintegrated except the little beast who revived as itself.

[HeatherMarie]

If it's anywhere near 30% on Halloween, it must be site-wide, because there were people posting about getting nothing at all or only getting one out of a bunch. I did quick percent calculations on just a few posts from the 31st, finding a range of 12-25% success. The lower end there was 12%, which is horrible for the supposed best day of the year. And multiple people posted about getting *nothing*. On Halloween. If we can't get raised odds in general, at least make Halloween *actually* the best time!

Edited November 8, 2018 by HeatherMarie

[Cinspawn]

The problem is that you can count all attempts (so dodges included) or only the revives. 

 

I think the dodges are the most disappointing and frustrating aspect of zombie making. If there were no dodges and we had a 30% zombie chance on Halloween only... I'd kill for that rate (pun intended). 

 

But the dodges mess everything up.