Brexit

[Dragoniclove123]

Compared with the informed approach of fuzzbucket and amazon_warrior, your approach is quite amusing.

I do not doubt that the majority of the leavers voted with the goal of stopping free movement, I do not have a lot of doubts about the xenophobic ideology behind a big percentage of those, demonstrated by the hatred shown right after the vote.

I'm slightly curious about the leap: how does the amount of people "flooding in" causes inability to build housing for the working class people?

By the way, I'm all for stopping Brit expats taking advantage of the French health system or favorable treatment in Tuscany, Algarve, Provence etc. I'm perfectly ok trading them with the health professionals now in the UK.

Now let's deal with the real world. Theresa May is the favorite with the support of more than 100 MPs behind her. Gove has around 20, his treachery does not seem to be paying. The other candidates have similar support. Guess what, Theresa May was a Remainer. The fact that she has that support already says something. Furthermore, May and Gove already told the world that they do not want to invoke Article 50 before the end of the year. The other 27 EU members want that declared as soon as possible, why shouldn't UK want to? Legally, the EU doesn't need to open any post-brexit deal negotiations with the UK until the UK is out of the EU. That does not mean until the UK invoke Article 50, that means until the UK is out and that could happen in 2 years. And in case you did not notice, until the UK is not out, the free movement stays, and UK must comply with all EU regulations.

The EU wants to make an example out of the UK so no others will be as silly as Cameron. Not only, EU members would profit of the UK being out. France can't wait to take away the City business. British Big Business does not want to lose the advantages of "passporting", who do you think controls the Tories? Big Business or a bunch of xenophobic individuals?

Let's make a deal: let's "meet" again on this thread in three years and see how things evolved.

 

Edit: by the way, it is extremely funny that UK would dare to babble about sovereignty. Do you think that someone forgot that UK invaded, colonized, ruined, starved and oppressed millions of people all over the world?

Wow. Not only are you bringing up the past, you're being ridiculous about everything else.

 

Personally, it was the people's choice. If you wanted them to remain, too bad, it's already been decided.

[Dragoniclove123]

Now, how smart are Cornwall residents? Couldn't they check the consequences BEFORE voting?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-...ocid=spartanntp

"We will be insisting that Cornwall receives investment equal to that provided by the E.U. program"

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreallyyyyyyy? And do you think that "insisting" is going to solve anything? Silly, silly uneducated people, uninformed people, needing baby sitters, not even responsible for their own choices.

Do you even live in Britain? If you don't, then you're just insulting people because of your own opinions. You are insulting an entire area because they voted for something you want to whine about.

[_Sin_]

I must thank the people that have been posting on this thread. It stimulated my intellectual curiosity and I'm now looking for statistics and facts-checking. I would appreciate if someone would explain to me, possibly not throwing insults or name-calling as happened on the posts just above, what are exactly the advantages of exiting the EU. In particular, since the EU exports only 3% of their GDP to the UK, while the UK exports 12% of the GDP to the EU, and there are (this was news for me, grateful for statistics) around 2.2m Brits using public services in EU countries against the 2.3m EU nationals using the UK public services.

Furthermore, what is exactly the plan? EU nationals leave UK, Brit citizens go back to UK? No more exports/imports between the exit and until the final deal agreement is signed between UK and the EU? And if there's no agreement on free movement, no trade deal, just tariffs?

Please let me know, I'm really curious.

Edited July 3, 2016 by _Sin_

[Sinion Kabe]

I didn't really care about Brexit, but that was because I wasn't from Britain. I did think Britain could do what they want. Your response is very sensible.

Thank you, Dragoniclove. I admire your democratic outlook and acceptance of the British vote. After seeing some of the comments that PewterEyes has made in this thread, I no longer wish to debate with him/her. Besides, my views are apparently due to me being "uneducated" and "uninformed". Nevertheless, it is not worth arguing with people who copy and paste Churchill quotes which have no relevance to this discussion whatsoever.

 

I must thank the people that have been posting on this thread. It stimulated my intellectual curiosity and I'm now looking for statistics and facts-checking. I would appreciate if someone would explain to me, possibly not throwing insults or name-calling as happened on the posts just above, what are exactly the advantages of exiting the EU. In particular, since the EU exports only 3% of their GDP to the UK, while the UK exports 12% of the GDP to the EU, and there are (this was news for me, grateful for statistics) around 2.2m Brits using public services in EU countries against the 2.3m EU nationals using the UK public services.

Furthermore, what is exactly the plan? EU nationals leave UK, Brit citizens go back to UK? No more exports/imports between the exit and until the final deal agreement is signed between UK and the EU? And if there's no agreement on free movement, no trade deal, just tariffs?

Please let me know, I'm really curious.

I cannot speak for the other 17,410,741 who decided to vote Leave, but for me, the main advantage to leaving is regaining our national sovereignty. It is clear that the dictators who run the EU are there to force a European superstate upon us, along with it's own "European Army" which our current British servicemen would strongly reject to. Decisions to Leave were not only based on the lack of public services. Most of our national laws are being controlled by an EU dictatorship. We don't even have a direct say on who is actually elected/thrown into these high positions of power.

 

In regards to any financial advantages or disadvantages, as you correctly suggested previously, it will be a while (years) before we can seriously begin to look at that. It could all work out for the better, seeing as we would no longer be tied down to any of the vast EU trade regulations. Britain will be able to negotiate their own individual trade deals with the rest of the world, similar to the Swiss who are a thriving non-EU nation. As I said before the referendum took place, I am more than willing to endure several years of uncertainly. But I am more excited about the future, rather than concerned.

 

In terms of a plan with Brits currently living abroad and EU nationals living in the UK, I assume that will be discussed between British and EU politicians as part of the overall exit when the time comes. I personally hope that people who have already settled in the UK can stay and that any further people who wish to settle here can apply via a fair points system so that our borders can be better controlled. They are denying it at the moment, but Turkey is set to eventually join the EU which will create yet another uncontrollable flood across the lands of Europe.

 

Around 820,000 vehicles produced in Germany were exported to the UK last year alone, making it their single biggest destination by volume. Thousands upon thousands of German jobs depend on British custom. That is just one industry. As much as we depend on them, they depend on us. It would be stupid for the remaining EU nations to create a problem when it comes to agreeing on a sensible forthcoming trade deal between us.

 

The best thing that British citizens can do now is accept the result, respect the result, stop the protests and banners of division and all unite together! I am shocked and disappointed by some of the Remain camps who cannot accept or respect the overall vote of the people. Some Remainers are coming across as extremely undemocratic. Saying things on social media such as "I will never give my seat up for an old person on a bus or train ever again". An utter disrespect to our wise pensioners, like they are too old to have a voice in the referendum after fighting through a world war for our freedoms. Terrible :/

Edited July 3, 2016 by Sinion Kabe

[olympe]

I must admit that the news since the referendum have been quite amusing to me. From interviews with British people done for our news channel that brought some very interesting quotes. "I had no idea my vote actually counted!" and "I didn't really want that [the Brexit]!"

 

Scotland declaring that they're doing a new referendum about becoming independent of the UK, not to mention the speculation that Northern Ireland might eventually do the same. Even funnier, there's that petition about making London independent and part of the EU instead of the UK. I actually laughed out loud when I saw that particular petition.

 

The expected financial troubles - from the pound going down to a 30-year-minimum, the UK getting worse credit ratings to some companies considering to leave the UK. (If you're a member of the leave party: Of course, these troubles are totally unexpected and only a result of the EU trying to pay UK back for their desire to leave...)

 

There's the substantial raise in xenophobic behavior, from mere nasty comments to actual crimes that I read about - even deep in EU country, this has been noticed. Another thing that has been noticed around here (Germany) is that there are more Brits than ever applying to become German citizens. Because those Britains living here could do so without penalties - but the UK leaves the EU, and with the expess intent to close their borders, no less, things might become harder for them.

 

Brexiteers wanted to leave the EU to save money and put it to good use at home. However, some areas (Cornwall...) are now in serious trouble because they receive substantial funds from EU - and now don't know how to make up for it.

 

Now, there are demonstrations in London (and who knows where else - I certainly don't) against Brexit.

 

Seriously, I'm amused.

 

 

They are denying it at the moment, but Turkey is set to eventually join the EU which will create yet another uncontrollable flood across the lands of Europe.

Not quite. Because Turkey isn't ready to join the EU - and won't be for some time. First of all, there's Erdogan, who is well on his way to become a true dicator. Then there's the issue of human rights (free choice of religion, equality...) Not to mention Erdogan, who is doing his best to act like a bull in a china shop. Also, there's the matter of economy, for the EU is also an economic construct. And I seriously doubt that Turkey is able to hold its own - and it's too big for us to support. And, of course, Erdogan...

Edited July 3, 2016 by olympe

[_Sin_]

I cannot speak the other 17,410,741 who decided to vote Leave, but for me, the main advantage to leaving is regaining our national sovereignty. It is clear that the dictators who run the EU are there to force a European superstate upon us, along with it's own "European Army" which our current British servicemen would strongly reject to. Decisions to Leave were not only based on the lack of public services. Most of our national laws are being controlled by an EU dictatorship. We don't even have a direct say on who is actually elected/thrown into these high positions of power.

 

In regards to any financial advantages or disadvantages, as you correctly suggested previously, it will be a while (years) before we can seriously begin to look at that. It could all work out for the better, seeing as we would no longer be tied down to any of the vast EU trade regulations. Britain will be able to negotiate their own individual trade deals with the rest of the world, similar to the Swiss who are a thriving non-EU nation. As I said before the referendum took place, I am more than willing to endure several years of uncertainly. But I am more excited about the future, rather than concerned.

 

In terms of a plan with Brits currently living abroad and EU nationals living in the UK, I assume that will be discussed between British and EU politicians as part of the overall exit when the time comes. I personally hope that people who have already settled in the UK can stay and that any further people who wish to settle here can apply via a fair points system so that our borders can be better controlled. They are denying it at the moment, but Turkey is set to eventually join the EU which will create yet another uncontrollable flood across the lands of Europe.

 

Around 820,000 vehicles produced in Germany were exported to the UK last year alone, making it their single biggest destination by volume. Thousands upon thousands of German jobs depend on British custom. That is just one industry. As much as we depend on them, they depend on us. It would be stupid for the remaining EU nations to create a problem when it comes to agreeing on a sensible forthcoming trade deal between us.

 

The best thing that British citizens can do now is accept the result, respect the result, stop the protests and banners of division and all unite together! I am shocked and disappointed by some of the Remain camps who cannot accept or respect the overall vote of the people. Some Remainers are coming across as extremely undemocratic. Saying things on social media such as "I will never give my seat up for an old person on a bus or train ever again". An utter disrespect to our wise pensioners, like they are too old to have a voice in the referendum after fighting through a world war for our freedoms. Terrible :/

No offense, Sinion, but I completely disagree with your opinion on the EU dictators. I don't see any sign of EU dictatorship. Actually, what I can see is the EU leaders agreeing on getting UK out of the EU as soon as possible.

I don't agree either that Turkey will become a EU member any time soon. Note that I would be ok with that.

Maybe you could take a look at this report. It would seem that the UK will have a lot to lose, quite more than Germany, if the UK cars weren't to be exported to the EU. And I would bet that the Germans and Italians and French can't wait to have their car exports replacing UK's. The final outcome for Germans would be that they would have more employment, not less. Wouldn't be stupid for the 27 EU nations to not agree with deals with the UK, would be selfishly smart. If the UK doesn't export or the exports are hindered by tariffs, Germany and others take advantage of that. Again, future will tell but... money will be the key.

 

@olympe: may I just agree 100% with you? I'm too lazy to go step by step and that would be, anyway, the final outcome

Edited July 3, 2016 by _Sin_

[Sinion Kabe]

Not quite. Because Turkey isn't ready to join the EU - and won't be for some time. First of all, there's Erdogan, who is well on his way to become a true dicator. Then there's the issue of human rights (free choice of religion, equality...) Not to mention Erdogan, who is doing his best to act like a bull in a china shop. Also, there's the matter of economy, for the EU is also an economic construct. And I seriously doubt that Turkey is able to hold its own - and it's too big for us to support. And, of course, Erdogan...

I am afraid that neither you or I can predict whether or not Turkey will eventually be allowed in. I am sure, despite your reasons above, you cannot absolutely guarantee that Turkey will never join the EU at some point in future and I would be more than happy to have the peace of mind that our borders are better controlled for when or if that ever occurs.

 

There's the substantial raise in xenophobic behavior, from mere nasty comments to actual crimes that I read about - even deep in EU country, this has been noticed.

You seriously should not believe everything that you see read in the media. The media were all pro-EU, don't forget. I live in a vastly populated area of London. I travel on the London Underground and buses 5 days a week. I have witnessed not one incident. However, there are some reports that pensioners are also receiving abuse from the younger generation because they "hate" them for casting a Leave vote so it works both ways when it comes to discriminate behaviour.

 

Another thing that has been noticed around here (Germany) is that there are more Brits than ever applying to become German citizens.

Irish citizenship applications are also on the rise. That would be perfectly normal in this situation as some of the Remainers want to retain their EU membership via dual-nationality. If German law allows British people to do that then they might want to rethink their laws as I find that quite amusing on my side of things. But Angela Merkel (who is at the helm of the failing EU) encouraged a damaging Syrian refugee flood so maybe she wants the Brits to apply, who knows?

Edited July 3, 2016 by Sinion Kabe

[_Sin_]

But Angela Merkal encouraged a damaging Syrian refugee flood so maybe she wants the Brits to apply, who knows?

Sorry but now I'm 100% against your point of view: "damaging Syrian refugee flood"??????????? Those people are trying to SURVIVE. I agree with Angela (by the way, the last name is MerkEl) and her compassionate stance.

 

ETA: I'll not debate anymore with you, I just realized, from your latest comment, that our opinions diverge too much.

Edited July 3, 2016 by _Sin_

[Sinion Kabe]

No offense, Sinion, but I completely disagree with your opinion on the EU dictators. I don't see any sign of EU dictatorship. Actually, what I can see is the EU leaders agreeing on getting UK out of the EU as soon as possible.

No offence taken at all. It is your right to disagree as I also disagree with you. I am all for seeing Britain get out of the EU as quick as possible, trust me on that. We have been held down by the dictatorship for far too long now. If you cannot foresee an EU dictatorship with a long term plan to form EU members into a superstate (United States of Europe) then I am sorry that you cannot see that.

 

Thanks for your offer on reading a report but I would like to decline as reports mean nothing most of the time. I would rather not go on predictions and be safe in the knowledge that our borders are already closed incase of the possibility.

 

And I would bet that the Germans and Italians and French can't wait to have their car exports replacing UK's.

With that comment in mind, maybe you should read this article about how German workers were feeling before the referendum took place.

 

Sorry but now I'm 100% against your point of view: "damaging Syrian refugee flood"??????????? Those people are trying to SURVIVE. I agree with Angela (by the way, the last name is MerkEl) and her compassionate stance.

 

ETA: I'll not debate anymore with you, I just realized, from your latest comment, that our opinions diverge too much.

I am sorry that you cannot accept my point of view when it comes to that issue. But I am afraid that you need to look at the facts. Lots more Syrians made a perilous journey and perished due to her calls on refugees to settle in Germany. But she has since completely backtracked on welcoming so many people, from what I hear. Big mistake, Merkel :/

Edited July 3, 2016 by Sinion Kabe

[StormBirdRising]

 

 

People need to accept that the people have spoken, the referendum is done, and change is going to come. All for the better in the long term future. Let us hope that other current EU members will also hold referendums to give their people the choice that Britain had. Let democracy prevail and ask the people to decide, not the EU dictators!

Amen to that. The people of Britain voted for what they wanted and now it is time to move forward from there.

[DuskOfTheStars]

Just sounds like xenophobia to me. And boy does that never end well.... Otherwise, I'm neutral. We will not know what happens till it happens. Also not liking the damaging flood of refugees comment. Those people are trying to survive and this is how you react?! Would you act like that if your family became refugees for whatever reason and tried to move into your country?

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dusky_Flareon

[Sinion Kabe]

I do not like the fact that Merkel encouraged Syrians to make a perilous journey but you want me to zip my mouth and not speak the truth? You have twisted my comment as xenophobic and that is terrible. So, because I am concerned about Merkel encouraging people to make an unsafe journey I am automatically xenophobic? Wow! I fully understand that people want to flee the troubles in Syria but telling people to come on over in flimsy boats is not the answer! If Merkel wants refugees to safely arrive in Germany she could have arranged for German boats to retrieve these poor people but she did not do that.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Sinion Kabe

[DuskOfTheStars]

No, it is Britain closing borders that seems xenophobic. Sorry about wording my sentences wrongly and offending you.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dusky_Flareon

[PewterEyes]

Just sounds like xenophobia to me. And boy does that never end well.... Otherwise, I'm neutral. We will not know what happens till it happens. Also not liking the damaging flood of refugees comment. Those people are trying to survive and this is how you react?! Would you act like that if your family became refugees for whatever reason and tried to move into your country?

Exactly. Xenophobia, nothing else. And, adding to that, hatred towards people trying to survive. True colours showing.

And ignorance showing as well: if Turkey was to join the EU tomorrow (will not), UK's border would not be controlled at all.

ETA: by the way, Sinion_Kabe, how is the flood of refugees damaging YOU? Or the UK, since you are not Schengen? Damaging flood, whatever. Your comment is xenophobic and just clarifies the rationale behind everything you posted so far.

Edited July 3, 2016 by PewterEyes

[Sinion Kabe]

I voted Leave. You accuse me of being xenophobic when I was actually born in France? Half of my family are French, half are English. So, please do not use the xenophobia card with me. I voted Leave for various reasons. Do not categorise over 17 million Leave voters as xenophobic.

[DuskOfTheStars]

I was saying the closed borders are xenophobic! They could have just as well left them open, even partially.

 

Fine, I'm off, all I can do is stick my foot in my mouth so badly everyone gets mad....

[PewterEyes]

I voted Leave. You accuse me of being xenophobic when I was actually born in France? Half of my family are French, half are English. So, please do not use the xenophobia card with me. I voted Leave for various reasons. Do not categorise over 17 million Leave voters as xenophobic.

Actually, I'm not saying that 17 million voters are xenophobic. I'm saying that your damaging Syrian refugee flood comment is and, in consequence, you are.

Edited July 3, 2016 by PewterEyes

[StormBirdRising]

Just sounds like xenophobia to me.

There's a difference between being xenophobic and being patriotic. Britain wants to maintain its identity as Great Britain. There's nothing wrong with that. Britain is a tiny country and probably reached its tipping point where they couldn't sustain all the people trying to come in and still provide services for their own citizens. If it is a choice to take care of your own citizens or the rest of the world, you have to choose to take care of your own or you won't be able to take care of anyone.

 

I always break things down into smaller terms. If you have 3 of your own children to provide for and there is a catastrophic accident and hundreds of children at your kids's school are left orphans you can't take them all in. Your own children are counting on you to take care of them and that is your primary obligation. Maybe you can take 1 or 2 but you can't take them all. You have to make sure your own kids don't end up starving or out on the streets first, then you can help others, only then.

 

It's the same thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by StormBirdRising

[PewterEyes]

Gimme a break. EU governments are providing services for millions of UK nationals living in those EU countries. Again: don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Sinion Kabe]

ETA: by the way, Sinion_Kabe, how is the flood of refugees damaging YOU? Or the UK, since you are not Schengen? Damaging flood, whatever. Your comment is xenophobic and just clarifies the rationale behind everything you posted so far.

You need to read my posts more carefully. When did I claim that the Syrian floods were damaging me? I simply said that Merkel increased the numbers of people who risked taking the dangerous journey in large rubber boats which terribly puts Syrian lives at risk. If Merkel wanted people to settle in Germany she should have arranged for safer transportation. She knows she made a big mistake with her comments and has since been heavily criticised.

 

With that being said, I am done with you now PewterEyes. Afterall, according to you, Leave voters are apparently "uneducated" and "uninformed" so I would not like to impose on your grand and sure opinions on the matter or any other matters!

Edited July 3, 2016 by Sinion Kabe

[PewterEyes]

I was saying the closed borders are xenophobic! They could have just as well left them open, even partially.

 

Fine, I'm off, all I can do is stick my foot in my mouth so badly everyone gets mad....

You did not stick your foot in your mouth. Your comments were kind and insightful. Please don't give up.

[Obscure_Trash]

As this is a current topic, emotions are understandably high. It appears that it would be best if this thread is closed for a while, at least until a mod has time to look through posts.