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blockEdragon

Make changes to the drake's flavor text

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After the eggs got a size change I thought "why not flesh it out a little further?"

I have seen so many people who think drakes are just other dragons in the description approval section and that's a shame because they are really really cool on their own and deserve better then just being glossed over by both the community and the site itself at times.

 

How nice would it be if once they hatch it could say "Aww its a cute baby drake" instead?, and then instead of that data about dragons that all of them come with above their breed paragraph (dragons don't communicate...bla bla) instead, it could talk about the nature of drakes rather then telling us about dragons.

that's kinda like having a gorilla exhibit and having a sign that tells us about humans instead, its not horrible but it would be strange.

 

I know most ideas come with a long winded explanation on why we really really need ____ but this is a relatively small request...well, except for the one who writes it and I love drakes but I don't think i'm cut out for that, but it is suggestions/REQUESTS after all! heh-heh-heh...

Edited by blockEdragon

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I'm undecided. My first thought was "Oh, that sounds cute, we'd need something like this for pygmies and two-headeds as well then". But, the later two are still dragons, so "Aww it's a cute baby dragon" is still correct. Not really sure where drakes stand - whether drake is a subgroup of dragons (what I always thought it was), or whether a being can only be either a drake or a dragon.

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Hmm. Even though I'm not too fond of things other than "regular" dragons on DC due to limited breeding options, I think this is a good idea. It would help new players understand that there's a difference between dragons and drakes on DC. It would also be nice to have something telling us about what makes a drake a drake without having to go to the forums to find out.

 

Overall, the idea helps avoid confusion, adds a little flavor to Valkemare and doesn't hurt anything or anyone since it's a rather minor change. Support.

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I'm undecided. My first thought was "Oh, that sounds cute, we'd need something like this for pygmies and two-headeds as well then". But, the later two are still dragons, so "Aww it's a cute baby dragon" is still correct. Not really sure where drakes stand - whether drake is a subgroup of dragons (what I always thought it was), or whether a being can only be either a drake or a dragon.

 

maybe it could still say dragon but the final adult dragon info could talk about them as a unique subgroup but keep the hatchling info the same or say "aww its a cute baby dragon with two heads" and "awww its a cute baby pygmy dragon" to leave more room for the description

Edited by blockEdragon

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I do not support. This is a way too minor and unneccessary change to implement. Also:

  • Here in DC we have two drakes: "regular" drakes, and "DC" drakes. The first are the wingless fourlegged dragons, the last are the ones you mention. Most people, when they hear "drake", think of the first; so it would be very confusing for them to read that, and see the dragon has wings; specially if they are completely new users.
  • DC drakes ARE dragons. They are just a little behind on the evolutionary process (at least that's my understanding on what a DC drake is). Just like we, humans, are "more evolved" simians or monkeys. So, if you are going to change it for the DC drakes, then you would have to change it for the wyverns, westerns, easterns, ... Well you get the point. And then we would fall again in the same confusion of: DC drakes vs regular Drakes.

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I do not support. This is a way too minor and unneccessary change to implement. Also:

Here in DC we have two drakes: "regular" drakes, and "DC" drakes. The first are the wingless fourlegged dragons, the last are the ones you mention. Most people, when they hear "drake", think of the first; so it would be very confusing for them to read that, and see the dragon has wings; specially if they are completely new users.

DC drakes ARE dragons. They are just a little behind on the evolutionary process (at least that's my understanding on what a DC drake is). Just like we, humans, are "more evolved" simians or monkeys. So, if you are going to change it for the DC drakes, then you would have to change it for the wyverns, westerns, easterns, ... Well you get the point. And then we would fall again in the same confusion of: DC drakes vs regular Drakes.

1. they changed the egg size which helps nothing so why is it too minor to actually inform players about something as big a a whole breeding group?

 

2. yea in the same way that gorillas are humans I guess

and those other sub types are all in the same breeding group and are dragons not drakes, theres a huge gap, one is an animal the other a person (in the same way that space aliens are people)

otherwise they would be called drakes and only be able to breed with other drakes

Edited by blockEdragon

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[*]DC drakes ARE dragons. They are just a little behind on the evolutionary process (at least that's my understanding on what a DC drake is). Just like we, humans, are "more evolved" simians or monkeys. So, if you are going to change it for the DC drakes, then you would have to change it for the wyverns, westerns, easterns, ... Well you get the point. And then we would fall again in the same confusion of: DC drakes vs regular Drakes.

I think calling the DC drakes dragons is like calling gorillas humans. That's the way TJ described it, at least(I think it was him, I don't remember exactly, I'll go and have a look when I finish this post).

Edit: Found it

 

It wouldn't lead to us needing to change the descriptions for the wyverns, westerns, etc.

Why? Well, the main/big difference is the breeding. Drakes are different enough to need their own breeding groups, where as the others can all breed together.

 

Pygmies and two-headeds also have their own breeding groups, but that's based on physical differences more than mental ones. Two-headed dragons have two heads, and pygmies are very small. I think drakes are generally smaller as well, but they're super dumb.

 

While I don't think this idea is necessary, I think it would be a cute change.

Edited by AppleMango

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I actually like this. It gives a heads up that these are a different breeding group than other dragons, which may not be obvious to those who don't use the forums.

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You are taking in account "dragon" is the term used for all of them, right? Is a general term. Just as much as you refer to a tiger and a cat as feline, a wolf or a dog as canine, a parrot fish and a goldfish as fish, and a canary and an eagle as birds. Dragon is the general term for wyvern, amphipteres, eastern, etc. Is just that, dragon is not an specific breed or species of dragons.

 

@blockEdragon The egg changed something: now we can identify a drake miles away (or before it is born, at least); before this update, this suggestion would have made a bit more sense, but now it doesnt, because something else, much more efficient, is doing the same as this suggestion. And the reason those dragons are in the same breeding group is for the sake of simplicity and the game. Leviathans should have their own separate breeding group, because they are much more different to dragons than DC drakes to "regular" dragons. Also for other reasons; but lets keep it at that, because you probably see how this dragon is so different to other breeds, yet you can breed it with a western, the most opposite breed: different kind of legs, wings vs no wings, body-type (lizard vs snake -like), and habitat. Do you know how far DC would have went if TJ decided leviathans and other "subtypes" only breeded with eac other? Not very far. Ironic thing is that TJ supposedly wanted that: more breeding groups; or so I read.

 

@AppleMango Pygmyes and 2 heads are not only different physically, but psychologically. Pygmyes are a lot like cats, and often are not very intelligent or way too uncontrollable (see magelight and how difficult is to train it to help you with its flame. Such an intelligent creature...), and 2 heads have 2 heads, can you really say they have the same mental behaviour of a normal dragon? difficult, only a few breeds are said to have the same "brain", others are described to have dual personalities. Thats why it would be neccessary to put it on other breeds. And neotropicals are not exactly the brightest of dragons, you know... yet they seem to be able to breed with "humans", even though they are "monkeys"! Also, the notes are your main observation of the dragon, if you can identify a drake, then you should be able to identify a leviathan (fins, and serpentine body), a wyvern (2 legs, wings, and no arms), an eastern (serpentine body with 4 legs) and some others, quite easily before they reach adolescence (when they gender, I mean).

 

Thats pretty much why. Something I can see being implemented, is a page in the encyclopedia dedicated to all dragon types. First the 4 main breeding groups: pygmyes, regular (which should have a new name), DC drakes (which should have a new name, or either call the regular drakes with a new name) and 2 headed; then the "sub types". Explaining their physical and psychological differences, which dragons belong to which group, etc.

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Remember that, from an RP standpoint, the notes on our scrolls are written by us as mages. So a human might confuse a drakeling for a normal hatchling.

 

I think a better idea would be to add another paragraph or maybe change the existing default paragraph on all adult dragons' pages to something about Drakes specifically. Since they're less evolved, they don't seem to have telepathy and likely have shorter life spans than full dragons.

 

Or maybe just add a note on the breeding page that "This is a Drake, so it can only breed with other Drakes."?

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@AppleMango Pygmyes and 2 heads are not only different physically, but psychologically. Pygmyes are a lot like cats, and often are not very intelligent or way too uncontrollable (see magelight and how difficult is to train it to help you with its flame. Such an intelligent creature...)

Actually, TJ just posted about this here:

Probably consistent/a bit better than other beings of their size. I forget exactly where I landed in terms of size, but it's definitely a bit bigger than people who think they're cat-sized. Regardless, it's pretty likely for them to have human-scale intelligence.

Emphasis mine.

 

As far as the original suggestion goes, I'm pretty indifferent. I could see it being nice for newer players who haven't yet figured out that drakes != dragons.

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Here in DC we have two drakes: "regular" drakes, and "DC" drakes. The first are the wingless fourlegged dragons, the last are the ones you mention. Most people, when they hear "drake", think of the first; so it would be very confusing for them to read that, and see the dragon has wings; specially if they are completely new users.

This statement confuses me. I've posted about this in the past, but I've never been able to find a convincing source definitively showing the "drake" means "wingless dragon." I've found definitions claiming everything from "young dragon" to "male dragon" to things that aren't even dragon, but never have I found something showing some sort of majority (or even large) support for the word "drake" as "wingless dragon."

 

I just did a google search for drake (with some modifiers like "-rapper") and three of the top five image results had wings. Wikipedia merely seems to say "By different roots drake is also another word for dragon." In D&D, Drakes seem to be sentient wyverns (because their wyverns are apparently not sentient?).

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Given TJ's quote that drakes *are* a different species, I would really love this.

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1. they changed the egg size which helps nothing so why is it too minor to actually inform players about something as big a a whole breeding group?

Actually changing the egg size helps a lot in my opinion - that's what very clearly makes pygmies their own breeding group. Why should it be less clear with drakes having their own egg size?

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Actually changing the egg size helps a lot in my opinion - that's what very clearly makes pygmies their own breeding group. Why should it be less clear with drakes having their own egg size?

well you gotta take the context of that reply, i actually really like that change

 

I meant it helps nothing in the same way this helps nothing, it helps nothing in terms of game-play other then a nice piece of lore to help differentiate between the two in partnership with the smaller egg

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This statement confuses me. I've posted about this in the past, but I've never been able to find a convincing source definitively showing the "drake" means "wingless dragon." I've found definitions claiming everything from "young dragon" to "male dragon" to things that aren't even dragon, but never have I found something showing some sort of majority (or even large) support for the word "drake" as "wingless dragon."

 

I just did a google search for drake (with some modifiers like "-rapper") and three of the top five image results had wings. Wikipedia merely seems to say "By different roots drake is also another word for dragon." In D&D, Drakes seem to be sentient wyverns (because their wyverns are apparently not sentient?).

Right on tj. The arguments about this have bugged me since I joined. Drake is indeed a simple synonym. I am so glad to see you come in here and say so.

 

Ok we have a few groups of dragons who breed only among themselves. Just as -afaik- not all cats can interbreed. You are never going to see a lion breed with a Siamese cat, but both are unquestionably cats. The only reason any of this matters here is that we like to know what DRAGON will breed with what other DRAGON.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I don't think we need to change the "aww, it's a cute baby dragon" part, but I do think THIS needs to be changed:

 

"Dragons are creatures with nearly unlimited life spans. They can survive for long periods of time, and no one has found a dragon that has died of old age. Adolescence is usually marked by the growth of a hatchling’s wings, although not all breeds of dragons grow wings and some breeds have other traits that indicate the beginning of maturation. Once they hit adolescence, hatchlings change quickly, maturing to their full forms in only 2 years.

 

Dragons don’t communicate with each other verbally, but they will growl to scare off predators and frighten prey. Young dragons will emit an extremely high-pitched squeal when they are frightened. To communicate, they use telepathy with each other and to speak to other creatures."

 

Drakes are described as dog like intelligence, so I really doubt they're using telepathy to talk to anybody. Also while it's not confirmed, I'm guessing their lifespans aren't as long as dragons (although, of course, for gameplay reasons they'll still never die as adults on us). It'd also be a good place to talk about some of the other typical DC "drake" characteristics.

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I don't think we need to change the "aww, it's a cute baby dragon" part, but I do think THIS needs to be changed:

 

"Dragons are creatures with nearly unlimited life spans. They can survive for long periods of time, and no one has found a dragon that has died of old age. Adolescence is usually marked by the growth of a hatchling’s wings, although not all breeds of dragons grow wings and some breeds have other traits that indicate the beginning of maturation. Once they hit adolescence, hatchlings change quickly, maturing to their full forms in only 2 years.

 

Dragons don’t communicate with each other verbally, but they will growl to scare off predators and frighten prey. Young dragons will emit an extremely high-pitched squeal when they are frightened. To communicate, they use telepathy with each other and to speak to other creatures."

 

Drakes are described as dog like intelligence, so I really doubt they're using telepathy to talk to anybody. Also while it's not confirmed, I'm guessing their lifespans aren't as long as dragons (although, of course, for gameplay reasons they'll still never die as adults on us). It'd also be a good place to talk about some of the other typical DC "drake" characteristics.

but its not a baby dragon its a baby drake, and do we really need the fake out anymore?

i mean its only good for one egg and that was before the eggs changed size so now theirs no wondering over weather or not it will be a drake after your first drake egg

 

also wouldn't it be obvious at least by the time they grow wings that they aren't dragons to someone in the DC world?

 

ya know because when you ask, Goldie? Minty?, Spot,? what do you want for dinner?

 

Goldie: spot, fetch! *throws ball for spot* How about beef?

 

Minty: Some fruit?

 

Spot whats your vote?

Spot?

How come you never answer?! Iv been raising you for three years now and NOTHING. Spot, you have telepathy USE IT!

 

i think anyone would figure it out at LEAST once they grow wings

but even the wingless hatchies probably can beam their thoughts after a three years or so

 

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Well, with the new eggs now, there won't be a fake out--if the egg is half-sized, it's a drake.

 

I also saw you making the comparison that calling drakes dragons is equal to calling gorillas humans, but I don't think that's fair. I think a better comparison would be calling both gorillas and humans primates, or mammals--some type of all-inclusive term. Everything we raise on Dragon Cave is, well, a dragon (sans chickens/dinos, obviously). It's just most dragons are really intelligent, while there's also a more primitive offshoot of dragons that, while still technically dragons, are more formally classed as "drakes." It's kind of like the reverse of the primate / human thing, except in this case instead of the more intelligent species having a differing term (human instead of primate), the less intelligent species have a differing term (drake instead of dragon).

 

To get to the point, I think using the paragraph that describes typical dragon behavior for drakes is misleading, but I don't really think it's wrong or overly misleading to call them cute baby dragons. Anyone who raises a couple of drakes will know to tell the difference from the egg stage, just like with pygmies.

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I agree with TJ, I really would like to know what source all these people who are saying "drake = wingless quadruped dragon!!" are getting it from, and why that source makes it universal dragon canon. A lot of writers and websites seem to come up with their own versions of what various words mean, based on their own varieties of dragons. Granted, it would be nice to have a simple term for them, since all we have without one is "wingless western" or "wingless quadruped", but it can't be drake because that is taken. (why I also disagree with the quite confusing "DC drake" and "traditional drake" labeling on the wiki's dragon sub-types page.)

 

 

 

I do think that some sort of modified adult description makes sense for drakes, and probably for the other breeding subgroups as well. As it stands, is there anything anywhere on the main site that actually lays out what makes the subgroups different? The only place I know for sure there is some information is the dragon request guides. It's probably why people, based on even the little debate in this thread, are somewhat confused as to what pygmies really are. (at least for pygmies it would probably require a modification of the original's description, since there would probably a lot of overlapping information)

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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I agree with TJ, I really would like to know what source all these people who are saying "drake = wingless quadruped dragon!!" are getting it from, and why that source makes it universal dragon canon.  A lot of writers and websites seem to come up with their own versions of what various words mean, based on their own varieties of dragons.  Granted, it would be nice to have a simple term for them, since all we have without one is "wingless western" or "wingless quadruped", but it can't be drake because that is taken.  (why I also disagree with the quite confusing "DC drake" and "traditional drake" labeling on the wiki's dragon sub-types page.)

I read at least one book that referred to them as wingless dragons, though it has been a long time and I have forgotten which book.

 

What I find funny is that drake doesn't even have to have anything to do with dragons. Male ducks are sometimes called drakes, like you say mallard hen or mallard drake.

 

I also agree on the other breeding groups.

Edited by Nectaris

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Well, with the new eggs now, there won't be a fake out--if the egg is half-sized, it's a drake.

 

I also saw you making the comparison that calling drakes dragons is equal to calling gorillas humans, but I don't think that's fair. I think a better comparison would be calling both gorillas and humans primates, or mammals--some type of all-inclusive term. Everything we raise on Dragon Cave is, well, a dragon (sans chickens/dinos, obviously). It's just most dragons are really intelligent, while there's also a more primitive offshoot of dragons that, while still technically dragons, are more formally classed as "drakes." It's kind of like the reverse of the primate / human thing, except in this case instead of the more intelligent species having a differing term (human instead of primate), the less intelligent species have a differing term (drake instead of dragon).

 

To get to the point, I think using the paragraph that describes typical dragon behavior for drakes is misleading, but I don't really think it's wrong or overly misleading to call them cute baby dragons. Anyone who raises a couple of drakes will know to tell the difference from the egg stage, just like with pygmies.

TJ himslef used that comparison

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TJ himslef used that comparison

I think you misunderstand.

 

I know that dragons are human level intelligence, drakes are not. HOWEVER, you forget that while "human" isn't a generic term for primates, "dragon" is a generic term for, well, dragons. The term dragon doesn't denote intelligence at all, at least not in this game. Drakes, pygmies, splits, and "normal" dragons are all dragons, even though only three of those groups are intelligent.

 

To put it another way, gorillas aren't humans, but drakes are dragons.

 

That's why I think leaving the current description is fine, while changing the generic "dragons are long lived intelligent beings blah blah" part for drakes is more important. Granted, I certainly wouldn't /mind/ changing the term to say "aw, it's a cute baby drake," I don't think it's vital, just like I don't think we need to change things to say "aw, it's a cute baby two headed dragon / pygmy dragon."

 

 

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I think you misunderstand.

 

I know that dragons are human level intelligence, drakes are not. HOWEVER, you forget that while "human" isn't a generic term for primates, "dragon" is a generic term for, well, dragons. The term dragon doesn't denote intelligence at all, at least not in this game. Drakes, pygmies, splits, and "normal" dragons are all dragons, even though only three of those groups are intelligent.

 

To put it another way, gorillas aren't humans, but drakes are dragons.

 

That's why I think leaving the current description is fine, while changing the generic "dragons are long lived intelligent beings blah blah" part for drakes is more important. Granted, I certainly wouldn't /mind/ changing the term to say "aw, it's a cute baby drake," I don't think it's vital, just like I don't think we need to change things to say "aw, it's a cute baby two headed dragon / pygmy dragon."

well tis not essential to change the lore text either

or change the egg size

this is just a small thing, it really don't need the weighty discussion that gameplay changers have

"hey lets label the jars so that we don't mix cherry jelly with strawberry jelly again!"

Edited by blockEdragon

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Since drakes are definitely different from regular dragons, I support their "flavor text" being changed from the standerd dragon text to something focused on their own breed. It's no big deal if the hatchling descriptions are changed though, since "dragon" is used more as an all-inclusive term. That being said, I don't think that other dragon types should have their flavor text changed—what it currently says is apparently applicable to all of the subgroups besides drakes.

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