Old Lineage View URL Modifier

[NotBambi]

I assume you mean the option for old view? I believe the idea is to have a separate link, so you could do

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/ABCDE to get to ABCDE's new lineage view

 

and something like

 

http://dragcave.net/oldlineage/ABCDE to get to the old boxed view

 

That would be okay, I guess, since usually people link things of interest when showing off or trading, and since anyone who happens to stumble across a dragon could just change the URL manually if they wanted to see the old view.

 

It does seem that the thread is revolving more around improving the new view than implementing a double view, though, and this I agree with. We don't need double codebases for everything. Poor TJ will be tearing out his hair trying to keep everything working and updated, especially when you factor in the plethora of browsers and the mobile site he has to support.

Oh I understand that. I just disagree with having two different Lineage links on the View page.

I'm not against manually modifying the URL even if I think we are asking TJ to maintain two different pages and that, sooner or later, we will end with the equivalent of saying goodbye to non-default skins.

 

[TCA]

The suggestion didn't include anything about putting the old lineage link on the view page, I think that's unnecessary.

 

Also, I don't think this would require much maintenance.

[Kirono]

Support, entirely, for adding in an option, or even hidden-URL (like the grave, and some other stuff that you can find on the dragcave wiki) way to get to the old lineage viewer

 

 

It's easy enough to count generations when you have a nice even-gen dragon, but, tell me what gen this guy is: here

 

 

In terms of changing the new view:

I hate scrolling sideways, so I'm all in favor of, at least in large lineages, reducing the amount of line-graphic present. Looking at the dragon linked above, there's about a dragon-pic's width of empty space on either side of the dragon, and the lines are about two dragons wide, so that's four dragons width of space practically wasted.

[NotBambi]

The suggestion didn't include anything about putting the old lineage link on the view page, I think that's unnecessary.

 

Also, I don't think this would require much maintenance.

Actually, when you're asking someone to maintain two pages instead of one, you're asking them to to do twice the work.

[Kirono]

Actually, when you're asking someone to maintain two pages instead of one, you're asking them to to do twice the work.

How? The code already existed

 

It's just adding another thing that already existed, it's not like TJ manually creates each dragon's lineage-view. Not sure what would break, either, unless some completely new AMAZING OMGGG functionality came along. Lineage view-pages are just that, pages to view your dragon's lineage

[AGYK]

How? The code already existed

 

It's just adding another thing that already existed, it's not like TJ manually creates each dragon's lineage-view. Not sure what would break, either, unless some completely new AMAZING OMGGG functionality came along. Lineage view-pages are just that, pages to view your dragon's lineage

Maintenance has to be done across both. Any updates have to be done across both, perhaps completely rewritten from one to the other. Only TJ can say what the extra workload would be and whether it would be worthwhile.

[Natayah]

First, I want to say I really like the new lineage trees. I think I remember an original suggestion or attempt to make them go.... up and down vs right to left or something and people (with many good reasons) were really concerned and upset because it would destroy the right to left visual work they have been doing for years. So I want to say it does look really nice and I think it was really well done.

 

I do agree that spirals now look a bit odd to me, but I think that might be able to be adjusted in a spacing issue. Spirals and their offshoots were never a large project or labor of love for me, and I don't have a lot of them, so I don't know that it would really impact me. But I know there are people who LOVE spirals and like to make "sporks" and various other combos, so I think you would have some impact there.

 

The longer patterned lineages, some of them are harder to trace back. I think that is something that is easier to see if you zoom in and out. Some of them require a lot more scrolling. IDK that I have an opinion of that's good or bad or neither or just adjusting yet. I actually don't mind it up thru even.... 6-8 Gen. I think 7-10 Gen and Beyond there is a LOT of scrolling to really see the full lineage and I think that might cause some people to think twice about breeding that high unless its something very easy to see like.... a PureBred. I know people don't want to see the images shrunk more than they already are, but for some of the larger gens, there may need to be some space pulled in just so it doesn't take so long to scroll. Or maybe I just need a larger monitor and/or to set my dragons to a small View size since they seem a bit large for this monitor anyway. (That is entirely an option and people with bigger screens or smaller pixel size may not notice much of a difference, or it may take longer before they do).

 

While this wouldn't impact much of my breeding, there are certain things I will breed no matter what because I am really dedicated to that particular breeding. But I also am constantly OCD about my dragon count, and it is possible that certain lines I just don't think will be as well liked any more, or don't look quite as nice to me, I would just release the parents and go ... Well that's one less dragon I need to worry about woo I may yet get back down closer to 2K dragons anyway!! But I don't think that is a really great response. I think the people who spend a lot of time breeding and working on lineages contribute a lot to this game, and collect and provide and gift a lot of dragons to create these. And if these views do impact them, I think it is something worth considering.

 

But for me, on the whole, I am ok, and I am quite ok with the change. But I certainly wouldn't for one second discount the views of those who do a lot more breeding projects than I do. I love to get some of their lovely eggs, and they are some of the most awesome people I've ever met, and I'd hate to have that resource or gameplay interrupted to a great degree that people just start abandoning certain parts of it. Such as stopping any dragon breedings past Even Gens of 5-7 Gens or Such. But then again, I think it does make some of the longer gens (like longer stairsteps) look a lot neater so maybe we'll see more of those. I just hope that people are willing to talk about it and not immediately panic because usually just honest conversation goes over pretty well here.

[Nightwalkerkey]

What about (I haven't read every reply, I'm just tiredly going through stuff) if there were an option in the user settings, like with skins? Users could pick the new or old lineage view, and I don't think that would be a huge deal. And for anyone who says trading values would go down because you'd not know which users are viewing what, well... Different people play the game differently and see things differently. I use the default skin, but other skins change the way dragons are seen/look to users as well. Think of the Celestials, for instance- translucent, show up differently on different background colors/surrounding colors.

 

TJ also seemed flexible with the 10th bday post, "Ever wonder what lineage trees would look like if they were actually lineage trees? Let's find out together" makes me feel like, lets find out what users like more overall but I know, can't please everyone! This option seems like it to me.

 

Personally, I like the old one better for the majority of things, especially valuable lineages. I hope that TJ does make an option somehow available for people to choose, whether it be changing links or user controls or whatever.

 

However I also like the change, it'll take some getting used to. Maybe it'll grow on me!

 

 

 

Also, in the lineage view of your dragon, http://dragcave.net/lineage/QIwqf, the blusangs name is cut off and put to a new line. Granted, only one letter, but still throws it off. Do not like. Hope it isn't meant to be like that, TJ....

 

If anything, I think for big lineages (say over 10 gens??) there should be something at the top stating what gen it is, since we don't have the boxes for easy counting anymore. Having to use something out of site is a bit of a pain when it was right there to use for ourselves before.

 

 

In terms of ignorance, sometimes one doesn't even know what they don't know or where to start to gain the knowledge for it. All of us don't know what we don't know in some terms or another. Either way, I don't think the harshness of that post was really necessary here.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Nightwalkerkey

[Ruby Eyes]

Maintenance has to be done across both. Any updates have to be done across both, perhaps completely rewritten from one to the other. Only TJ can say what the extra workload would be and whether it would be worthwhile.

Well, the suggestion is to keep a tiny part of the site like it was *without* updates. As a hidden function, like the /n/ modifier for calling dragons by their names, it would be rather unobtrusive, too. Otherwise, we may kind of *need* to resort to offsite helpers to count generations, which wasn't necessary before due to the box indicators at the top ...

[StormWizard212]

Socky, Penk being so bright plus the fact you were looking for them is the only reason you don't skim over them. It still hurts their visibility, and if a similar lineage were done with holiday alts, with a high prevalence of the subtler ones like the alt Snow Angels, Graves, Cavern Lurkers, and Shadow Walkers, someone might not even realize what they were looking at. It's a change to the aesthetic that hurts the intended purpose of the lineage, which is a valid reason to argue in favor of this.

I looked at the lineage before reading your post (I've been clicking through lineages in this thread, just to see how different ones look now with the new layout) and I didn't notice Jewel at all. Honestly, the only reason I noticed that all of the original pairings are prizes is because I noticed the rest of the lineage was and went, "huh". This new view definitely draws attention away from the CB generation, especially sine the names are equally spaced between the above and below dragon, making it unclear what is referring to what. The first gen is just confusing to look at overall, for me. This isn't something where I think you can say it's definitively one way or another, true or false. This is just my opinion and how I experience it. For me, the new layout draws attention away from the CB generation, compared to the previous layout. I don't mean just with these particular dragons, but with all dragons and lineages in general.

 

Overall, I like the new view just fine, but there are a couple of things I think need to be looked at again:

 

1) The issue with CBs getting kind of lost.

2) The fact that it's much less compact than it used to be when dragons have short names.

3) The fact that it's much more difficult to determine the generation when you have really long lineages.

4) The issue some people have mentioned about inconsistent spacing/lining, though I don't know if that's just a glitch.

 

They're the only issues I have with it. I like it overall and in some cases I think it looks better.

Edited May 22, 2016 by StormWizard212

[AGYK]

Also, in the lineage view of your dragon, http://dragcave.net/lineage/QIwqf, the blusangs name is cut off and put to a new line. Granted, only one letter, but still throws it off. Do not like. Hope it isn't meant to be like that, TJ....

For what it's worth, I'm not seeing that. Screenshot.

 

Well, the suggestion is to keep a tiny part of the site like it was *without* updates. As a hidden function, like the /n/ modifier for calling dragons by their names, it would be rather unobtrusive, too. Otherwise, we may kind of *need* to resort to offsite helpers to count generations, which wasn't necessary before due to the box indicators at the top ...

Oh, without updates at all? I was under the impression the request was for two separate views to be maintained. I think leaving the old view as a hidden URL-accessible option without updates is pretty reasonable.

[Nightwalkerkey]

For what it's worth, I'm not seeing that. Screenshot.

Huh, odd... Running Chrome... http://imgur.com/aB7JOJM

[Obscure_Trash]

Maintenance has to be done across both. Any updates have to be done across both, perhaps completely rewritten from one to the other. Only TJ can say what the extra workload would be and whether it would be worthwhile.

And all this makes even less sense to do to a hidden page. A ton of users aren't going to know about the existence of a hidden page, so now not only are you doing updating on two views that serve one purpose, you're doing it on two views that serve one purpose, one of which only a small percentage of users knows about, much less uses.

 

For what it's worth, I'm not seeing that. Screenshot.

Probably based on screen width, then. I see one letter thrown onto a second line as well.

 

I think it would be a reasonable fix to have it move at least three letters, so you don't get random strings of one moved.

 

Well, the suggestion is to keep a tiny part of the site like it was *without* updates. As a hidden function, like the /n/ modifier for calling dragons by their names, it would be rather unobtrusive, too. Otherwise, we may kind of *need* to resort to offsite helpers to count generations, which wasn't necessary before due to the box indicators at the top ...

 

Still going to have to test and make sure it works any time any updates are done, and if it breaks, you're still going to have to fix it.

Edited May 22, 2016 by SockPuppet Strangler

[AGYK]

And all this makes even less sense to do to a hidden page. A ton of users aren't going to know about the existence of a hidden page, so now not only are you doing updating on two views that serve one purpose, you're doing it on two views that serve one purpose, one of which only a small percentage of users knows about, much less uses.

I think that's the point of "no updates", Socky. At some point things are going to break. Saying "okay, this is available as a hidden legacy view, with the understanding that it will break at some point and I'm not going to fix it" might not be terrible. It's not unlike the deal with the older site skins - a very limited number of people are allowed to use them, with very limited updates, and an understanding that at some point they will be fully removed.

 

Probably based on screen width, then. I see one letter thrown onto a second line as well.

 

I think it would be a reasonable fix to have it move at least three letters, so you don't get random strings of one moved.

Might also be workable to break on spaces. A glance at the page's source suggests TJ's just using a basic span element to hold names in /lineage/ right now. If he was to change it to use wbrs on spaces, the way dragon names in the /view/ page work, that would allow browsers to line-break on spaces. Still wouldn't help with super long one-word names, as in that screenshot, but it might be a decent compromise to cover super long multi-word names and normal-length one-word names. (TJ's call as always, of course. I'm just tossing stuff out there in case the bossman finds it helpful.)

[VixenDra]

Those are a bit of an unfair comparison because they aren't mixed past the first gen, Socky. A better comparison would be: this lineage. Look at it naturally as you would if you were just being linked it in the Congrats thread, once over, before highlighting this:

 

Did you spot the alt Rosebud, the Thuwed Swallowtail, and the Aria?

 

All of those did stand out more with the old view than they do now.

I only noticed the brown Sweetling and the Bright Pink, nothing else...

And now I looked at again it after a few minutes I completely missed the Thuwed but remembered to find 1 more alt

bad.

 

And now it's a real pain to count the generation.

And longer even-gens also aren't so obvious anymore

 

 

 

also now even-gens feel a bit more like an arrowhead than a box.

https://dragcave.net/lineage/13Afz vs https://dragcave.net/lineage/grleb

mid you this is not in any case an arrowhead: https://dragcave.net/lineage/Mk0LM but feels like it was now;

even gens were so appealing to me only because of the box, and I was making arrowheads only when I couldn't hope for an even-gen or when it wasn't doable, now everything looks like arrows

Well, at least this: https://dragcave.net/lineage/ScQqy doesn't feel like a poor lineage (I've consulted if an arrow or checker is better, now everything looks like an arrow anyway )

 

for my own lineages the new view seems beneficial(because now all my lineages feel like from the same fairy tale at last, just I regret not building all my even-gen arrows so the outer breed matches the color of the hybrid - previously I was also wanting a more roundish feeling to the lineage... now everything feels like arrows it's a meh),

but well,

not for actually READING the lineage... now it's more difficult to notice many things...

[pinkgothic]

I do agree that spirals now look a bit odd to me, but I think that might be able to be adjusted in a spacing issue.  Spirals and their offshoots were never a large project or labor of love for me, and I don't have a lot of them, so I don't know that it would really impact me. But I know there are people who LOVE spirals and like to make "sporks" and various other combos, so I think you would have some impact there.

 

For what it's worth, as a spiral lover, I adore the new lineage view. I think they look much more awesome than before, because from my perspective, you can really see the intended shape now, without rectangle outlines muddying the waters.

 

(Also spiral-arrows. Oh my gosh I need more of these in my life now.)

 

That said, I don't mind the idea of there being an old lineage view that can be linked to instead. I wouldn't use it since I'm in love with the new layout, but I understand it's different for other people.

 

I would prefer that to tweaks of the new system (unexpected word wraps that some people seem to be experiencing notwithstanding), since I like the new system the way it is, including the noticeably smaller caveborn column (not that noticeably smaller lower gens is new, but I'd agree it's much more pronounced now). Though size tweaks are nothing I couldn't get over, I guess. Don't mind me, I suppose.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Alright after sleeping on it I think my one and only real beef with the new lineage views is, again, how very spaced out they make once-compact lineages seem. This https://dragcave.net/lineage/850Li and this https://dragcave.net/lineage/OnhaI used to be very closely spaced lineages, for example, but now they've got about three times as much spacing between the sprites as there used to be. I think it'd be nice if generations where there were only names under X size would have less spacing between the brackets, while those over X size have the current spacing. Having just two sizes would also keep more consistency between lineages then we used to have, which I admit I really do like... just hoping we can find a compromise between consistency and compact views.

[bob_jones]

Support. I'm really unenthused by how some of the lineages look now.

Edited May 22, 2016 by bob_jones

[HawktalonOfRiverClan]

I think something needs to be done about how the new view handles long names. I have this dragon and her name gets chopped up as if it were two words. I'm not sure what the solution is to this, but it looks really weird as it is.

 

I do agree that the new view is too spaced out for dragons in longer lineages. Decreasing the space between them would help make it more aesthetically pleasing, I think.

Edited May 22, 2016 by HawktalonOfRiverClan

[anetofstars]

I prefer the old view. It is better designed and is easier to see on a smartphone, from what friends tell me. My dragons have long names, and the new design makes a mess of that. Also, for those with visions issues, the older design is easier to see.

 

At least there should be an option to switch between the 2 designs.

[AngelKitty]

100% support for this, or reverting back to the old style. Something. Anything. It makes long lineages like this one look stretched out and...I don't know...empty. Even shorter even-gens look separated and detached. The boxes looked better; they made the whole lineage seem connected and neat and now it looks scattered to me. :/

[Odeen]

Rather than crusading for a legacy view, why not work on offering suggestions to tweak perceived issues you have with the new view? "I don't like it, I want what I always had" not productive thinking in the least, and while some things I can see (like the spacing between the name of one dragon and the tile of the dragon beneath it), most of the complaints I've heard people giving are just...not coming through for me.

 

Want a way to track generations? Why not a blurb somewhere in the dragon info that tells you its generation (Breed: Water Dragon (6th G) or something)? Want more space separating a dragon from its downstairs neighbor? I bet that's doable. Want changes to word wrapping? I bet that's able to be tweaked, too.

 

The old table style lineage view was the kind of stuff that would have been right at home on a Geocities play-by-post horse RPG back in 1999, but it looked dated and clunky and was nearly impossible to properly read at a glance with high generation lineages. Why not see what can be done with this new, cleaner view?

[cbussiere]

For what it's worth, I totally prefer the new look. Long lineages in particular are FAR easier to read and trace, and the different segments of messy lineages are beautifully separated, so now they don't even look messy, just patternless. I don't think the readability of different styles of planned lineages suffers at all, and the brackets make parental pairs much clearer than a bunch of boxes smooshed together did. Personally the spaciness of short lineages doesn't bother me, I don't think it's too spaced at all. I can see why some miss the really compact lineages that used to be formed from short names, but I think it makes it clearer to read.

 

As for long names without spaces being too long and being broken into two lines, making the text size for those names smaller is the best solution I can think of, but it might disrupt the look of the other names. And I don't support making the text size of every name smaller, because I have poor eyesight and text can be difficult to read as it is. Automatic hyphenation could be an option (like in books), but that wouldn't look much better than it does now. You could also consider expanding the horizontal space between generations, but if people already think it's too open, that might not go over well.

 

Instead of having to change the URL to see the old style (which would get annoying), or not seeing it at all, why not have an option in the account settings page? You can already choose things like how many dragons you see on a page, the site theme, and other cosmetic things, so this wouldn't seem unreasonable. It's really not much different from a theme.

 

@Odeen: I would love it if the generation was stated on the dragon's page. It could just be in a line below the "View Lineage" link, or after it, like "View Lineage (6th generation)."

Edited May 23, 2016 by cbussiere

[Quackerz]

I oppose a revert/rollback to the old layout, and am to some extent more undecided on a legacy view.

 

I feel like it would be one more thing in need of constant updates and something to break. And having two features that do the same thing, I'm not certain how I feel about this. But if it is going to work as a hidden function like the "/n/" (as I see someone suggested above), then I don't really see much harm in having it as that.

 

I really like the new lineages and support tweaking them rather than bringing back the old lineages (for me, it's always seemed like there was something just.. not quite right about them, but I've never been able to place what it is/was.)

 

So far, I haven't really noticed any problems with it, other than it displays poorly on old browsers as posted inthe screenshots by Guillotine on the top of page 2, quoted below. (I normally use Firefox 12.0, as I can't stand the newest version).

 

Here's a screenshot of a stairstep. Besides the fact that the lines extend past the adbox in later gens, which may just be a browser issue, it's harder to read which female is with which gen with the current set-up.

 

e: and here's a spiral.

 

I've since switched to using Yandex browser for Dragcave, lineages look fine now. I would like to maybe see some tweaks so that they'll function with older browsers, if not though, I don't really mind too much.

 

@Odeen: I would love it if the generation was stated on the dragon's page. It could just be in a line below the "View Lineage" link, or after it, like "View Lineage (6th generation)."

 

I would love to have that feature, as well.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Sean175

[TCA]

You have to remember that the table layout is the aesthetic people have planned around for years, and any changes to that layout do change the aesthetic in a way that does not work for some people's plans and lineages.

 

It's better for tracking generations, and while spacing and word wrapping tweaks would be nice, that doesn't help everyone.

 

The new lineage view does look a lot emptier without the boxes, especially in the really large even-gens. This lineage looks like a blank page with a few dragons on the right when it first loads, where with the boxes you could tell there was something there, and the boxes gave a more consistent vertical division that made it easier for me to tell which dragons were paired with which in the more spaced-out recent generations. The more compact vertical spacing is really nice for smaller displays, and you can't really have that incredibly tight vertical spacing without single-line names and the narrow horizontal dividers.

 

In addition, someone else mentioned that without the boxes, checkers don't really look like checkers. This is very true. This looks nice, but without the dividers it doesn't have the partial-checkerboard look anymore, the pattern looks more like interlocked lines, which is problematic because that's not the aesthetic I bred for.

 

A legacy view doesn't hurt anyone, but it allows people to view lineages for which they prefer the old view as they were originally planned and curated, sometimes at great expense or effort. I don't see why "I like the new view, so you shouldn't get a legacy view" is a good argument.

Edited May 23, 2016 by TheCompleteAnimorph