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Remove drake breeding

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Well, Neanderthals did breed with modern humans. As did Denisovans...

Hence "if we have to go down this road", as TJ has been very consistent in comparing drakes and dragons breeding together to humans and dogs breeding together.

 

Neos are described as being "very s****d". Maybe not at Drake level, but still very s****d, showing that dragons have a broad range of intelligence, as GoN (who are very smart / powerful demi-gods) will breed with Neos. That's the one that comes to mind, but a couple of other breeds (I'll have to dig them up) also are described as very stupid.

 

None of that is listed in the cave. As far as I can tell, it's not even a comment on the forum - it's just a comment on the wiki.

 

Glories are headcanoned by the artist as much smaller than pygmies, but pygmies are housecat size because that's the smallest size TJ would let them be described as. Vicats originally wanted them much smaller.

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To put my two cents in on this suggestion, I would support giving drakes at least a slight chance of breeding with regular dragons. I like making pretty lineages, and it makes me sad that we miss out on good opportunities with pairings and such. I wouldn't change the species; as it has been said before, if wyrms and amphiteres and easterns can be subspecies of a dragon, I see little reason outside of the discussed lore that drakes can't be grouped in with that.

 

I also see what other people are saying, though. Removing an exclusive breeding group might be a hard sell for some. But at the moment Drakes can be boring for breeders and breeders make up a large percentage of the site. Whether it be adding new dragons or removing the restriction, I think something needs to change.

 

So this thread has my ultimate approval and support, and I like a lot of the suggestions that have been made. biggrin.gif

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The funniest thing I've noticed here is:

that (at least some of) those who defend that the limitations on drakes' due to their breeding group are so fun and good and interesting oh and ah, apparently also don't collect drakes, 2-headeds nor/or pygmies for exactly the reason people want to get rid of the drake breeding group... o-kay?

 

Also what I'm seing is constant argument of 'X is/would be more realistic' vs 'DC is not meant to be realistic'...Well, it indeed isn't, there is a dragon breed that can't breed true(in the natural and realistic way) but can breed with any other breed then its own - yes, it's about GoNs. Guardians of freakin' NATURE who breed in the least natural way(GoNs do have both sexes, why shouldn't they breed true? how are GoNs made back in their world before they're summoned to our scrolls? They must reproduce somehow in a way that allows the breed to go on... why GoN,s the most powerful of dragons probably, can't reproduce on our scrolls anymore? but can breed iwht lessen dragons to produce some hybrids but are unable to continue their own breed?)

Anyway...

 

I believe we should consider this from the point of view of the players, not necessairly 'realistic-unrealistic'. While I don't need drakes to change at all, I beleive that from the pov of DC players it'll really make more sense to merge their breeding group with dragons, and that there could be more pygmy and 2-headed releases so we can have 3 greater breeding groups instead of 4 smaller (though I personally don't really like neither of these remaining 2 groups - pygmies for even tinier size, 2-headeds for what I think of 2-headed creatures in general and also for the fact one of the heads is often squeezed in just to be there while the sprite would probably simply look better withotu it:P but still, for the game itself it would be better to have these 2 grow a lot and DC drakes to be incorporated into dragon's breeding group).

 

 

Also I'm wondering how many players actually care about the breed's description... because seems it's the very tiny percent who actually think about their pixels in terms of the DC lore... isn't it mostly about sprites and, quite frequently, lineages?

 

Also does anyone remember there was an idea for a breeding group called 'draga'? it was like with DC drakes - a tiny thing that makes a new breedign group, in that case it was the dimprphism of wings on one gender and lack of wings on the other. But it was scrapped and does anyone miss it? I bet that sooner or later DC drakes would go the same after a while, especially as only jsut some percent of the playerbase actually gets the idea of how they are supposed to be different... just like with dragas, noone could tell why Terrae's are different when someone mentioned them again very recently...

actually I suspect dragas were invented to follow DC drakes... just to have a 'special' dragon too...

 

 

but well, I can't say this would influence my own gameplay, still I think it would be better to merge them with regular dragons^^; because they're are just westerns with lesser intelligence, and intelligence doesn't manifest in the game itself, it's just WRITTEN and known by relatively few players; while not ADDING anything good to the game - as I've already noticed, even those who defend the drake group dont' like collecting many of the separate breedign groups' dragons^^; Drakes, pygmies, and after a while, 2-headeds are the most cavebloking new releases, also Drakes and pygmies don't rade for the regular dragons fromt he same release... they simply are much less valued for how little can be done with them compared to any regular dragon. And with as many as 3 tiny breeding groups there's close to no chance of evening these out anytime, while if we're left with 2 instead, the chance will be much greater that these 2 smaller groups will be less drasstically smaller than the main, no?^^;

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FTR, GONs are a terrible example because lore-wise they're basically dragon gods - obscenely rare, obscenely powerful. They don't play by our rules. I'm not even certain there are more than one in the whole of Valkemare in the first place, but that would be a T.J. question. When it breeds with lesser beings, of course it would produce lesser offspring like avatars. Demigods are not as strong as their divine parent, and in the cases of myths like Loki they can look very different from them as well.

 

If you want less restrictive drake breeding, work on producing more drakes. Justifying a consolidation of the groups based on physiology is pointless: going by size, drakes are probably actually far more similar to pygmies than dragons, as dragons have a massively wide size range, and pygmies can also have all the same features. Outward appearance simply is not compelling enough to justify combining two breeding groups, and as has been pointed out the game hardly makes concrete biological sense anyway.

 

Address the problem, don't just do away with it.

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FTR, GONs are a terrible example because lore-wise they're basically dragon gods - obscenely rare, obscenely powerful. They don't play by our rules. I'm not even certain there are more than one in the whole of Valkemare in the first place, but that would be a T.J. question. When it breeds with lesser beings, of course it would produce lesser offspring like avatars. Demigods are not as strong as their divine parent, and in the cases of myths like Loki they can look very different from them as well.

 

If you want less restrictive drake breeding, work on producing more drakes. Justifying a consolidation of the groups based on physiology is pointless: going by size, drakes are probably actually far more similar to pygmies than dragons, as dragons have a massively wide size range, and pygmies can also have all the same features. Outward appearance simply is not compelling enough to justify combining two breeding groups, and as has been pointed out the game hardly makes concrete biological sense anyway.

 

Address the problem, don't just do away with it.

wink.gifYes!

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Address the problem, don't just do away with it.

I'd love to "address the problem", but a large part of the problem is inherent in the *concept* of Drakes. They are, by definition, a very restricted type. You have to have traits x, y, and z, and that only allows for so much variation. There won't ever be as much creative variety in Drakes as there currently is in Pygmies and Two-Heads.... because the concept of them is so restrictive. And in fact... there's more variety in the various Wyverns than there is in Drakes! There are more Wyvern breeds than there are Drakes, too. xd.png

 

As for dragon sizes, you have a point and don't have a point. The problem is, the dragon sizes that TJ thinks and what the Spriters think and what the *sprite* sizes are is not consistent. In fact.... its very inconsistent. So, the only way most of the user-base can really compare them is the sprites themselves. And in them, there is a very distinct difference in size between a Pygmy and a Dragon (Except for Pumpkins which weren't meant to be part of that group in the first place).

 

And as for merging the groups being to "avoid" the problem, I have to disagree. The way to avoid the problem now is to do nothing. Merging the groups (or providing limited breeding) would fix the problem. Adding a ton more breeds would fix the problem. But... there are very few breeds on the completed list that are Drakes.

 

(and yes, I've noticed how the only person who is for keeping them the same that is currently using Drakes is Fuzz.)

 

Cheers!

C4.

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How restrictive is it really? Let's see...

 

1. Have four limbs/legs with leathery wings. - it doesn't specify a wing shape or limb length.

2. Have antlers. - it doesn't specify an antler shape or whether it must branch.

3. Are smaller than the average dragon. - ok

4. Have a similar intelligence level to dogs. - artistically irrelevant

5. Only have an innate/natural level of magic. - leaves you open for a lot of interesting interplay between the drake and its elemental affinity, which could well affect the physiology.

6. Lack a thumb. - this does in fact restrict you.

 

So... They lack thumbs and must have some variation on a body style which already makes up the majority of actual dragons with wild variety between them all. This doesn't sound particularly restrictive to me, but...

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FTR, GONs are a terrible example because lore-wise they're basically dragon gods - obscenely rare, obscenely powerful. They don't play by our rules. I'm not even certain there are more than one in the whole of Valkemare in the first place, but that would be a T.J. question. When it breeds with lesser beings, of course it would produce lesser offspring like avatars. Demigods are not as strong as their divine parent, and in the cases of myths like Loki they can look very different from them as well.

 

If you want less restrictive drake breeding, work on producing more drakes. Justifying a consolidation of the groups based on physiology is pointless: going by size, drakes are probably actually far more similar to pygmies than dragons, as dragons have a massively wide size range, and pygmies can also have all the same features. Outward appearance simply is not compelling enough to justify combining two breeding groups, and as has been pointed out the game hardly makes concrete biological sense anyway.

 

Address the problem, don't just do away with it.

Yes too. I do want more drakes. Especially a very red one. I do not want their breeding merged with other groups. Even a little bit. I am still totally with pokemonfan13. For the record I did actually come up with a HOLIDAY drake which was submitted to TJ, but it didn't make it into life. sad.gif

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I think the biggest limitation is that they all need to have struts, really.

I don't actually see struts in the official requirements anymore, nor is there a minimum or maximum number of them in the first place.

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I'm not really sure why this discussion keeps coming up. It is firmly established lore that the way I've been able to put it into simple English in the world of Earth animals to make it make more sense:

 

Pygmies = Reptile Cats

Drakes = Reptile Dogs

Dragons = Reptile SuperBeings

Two Headed = Reptile Cerberus (Also Like SuperBeings, but the Head thing so they can't interbreed)

 

How could any of these things reproduce with each other? They can't. We just need more dragons to be submitted of certain individual types if they don't have enough "breeding variety". The spriters have already stated multiple times they are working on it as much as possible. Every release recently seems to have had Two Headed and Pygmy and even Drake Varieties.

 

But you can't make a cat and a dog breed. Outside of whacky science. Unless TJ is going to change established DC Genetics and Lore (and then the spriters that made those creations and very much support that DC Genetics and Lore), this argument can't even really exist unless TJ is going to blow up the world and redefine it. Which isn't likely at this point as there tends to be more effort to set more things into stone these days.

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I've had concepts in the past that I had hoped to be able to use to cross breed between pygmy, drakes and regular dragons, but was told that something like that simply would not happen. Even with the limitations of "any egg bred from the pairing would only be able to breed the type of the other parent (as in if the cb was bred to regular dragons, all future gens would only breed to regulars.. or if the other parent was a pygmy, then all offspring would breed to pygmy), i was told no. So.. those concepts are all drakes now, since they land in the drake size range, and tend to have other similar traits with them.

 

The main issue with drakes is the lack of variety. If more breeds were made (and actually released), there would be able to be wider varieties of pairings. Me, I try to make pygmy, drake and two headed holidays, because they are fun, but I lack the proper skills for getting them right. I still do it, because its great practice. I love playing in the fuzzy grey areas between the breeds (making more "mint" sized regular dragons as they are the smallest breed of regular dragon, and about the size of the largest drakes from my understanding... borrowing traits from other types of dragons for a bit more variety). I would love to see more mass releases of say 3-4 of each of those under represented groups happen on a more regular basis to even out the numbers.

 

Having actual RARES in those groups would also help. Regular dragons have the benefit of having almost every holiday devoted to them, golds, silvers and prizes. Pygmies do not have a shiny rare (but do have a holiday at least). Two headeds do not have a shiny rare.. drakes.. do not have a shiny rare. For the most part, they all appear to be rather common, and without a more rare breed to encourage more breeding lines, it does make them less likely to be bred. I understand that simply adding more rares is NOT really a solution, but it is a bit unfair that those groups cant have a rare simply because the regular dragons get the honor of having all the pretty shinies devoted to them. As they are their own breeding groups, it makes sense that they should have their own rares.. doesn't it?

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i would be more than happy with a rare shiny (metallic) pygmy and drake and two headed since that would focus more attention on those groups.

 

but think of the chances of that ever happening. there's no shiny rare drake or pygmy or two headed being worked on in dr or in the cr (no idea about the super secret artist forum tho)

and even if there is one think of the chances of it actually getting incave imho those chances are basically nonexistent

 

which is why i think just letting drakes have the very very low successful chance of breeding with a regular dragon and producing an egg is the better and realistic solution as much as i would love to have a white gold drake or golden pearl pygmy or platinum two headed.

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The artists do a TON of work we don't see until it's released. If it's something we are thinking about as a player base, you can be about 500% certain it's something the Spriters have already thought of and/or are working on. However, you can go create one on your own. Nothing is stopping you from that.

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How restrictive is it really? Let's see...

 

1. Have four limbs/legs with leathery wings. - it doesn't specify a wing shape or limb length.

2. Have antlers. - it doesn't specify an antler shape or whether it must branch.

3. Are smaller than the average dragon. - ok

4. Have a similar intelligence level to dogs. - artistically irrelevant

5. Only have an innate/natural level of magic. - leaves you open for a lot of interesting interplay between the drake and its elemental affinity, which could well affect the physiology.

6. Lack a thumb. - this does in fact restrict you.

 

So... They lack thumbs and must have some variation on a body style which already makes up the majority of actual dragons with wild variety between them all. This doesn't sound particularly restrictive to me, but...

Now compare that to the body forms of Two-Heads.... or Pygmies. The sole requirement of those dragons is 2 heads and small sprite size. As such, there's a lot of variety between the different body plans.

 

Would it be possible to create a very unique looking Drake? I'm no artist, so I can't answer that question. Which is my point, really. If the requirements *weren't* restrictive, then why do all drakes look so similar other than pose and color? Where IS the variation?

 

Thu, while I like the idea of releasing more Drakes.... I think you need to do one, much larger chunk for it to have any difference.... while maintaining normal releases. 15 breeds or more would probably do it, but again, the point I made to Odeen still stands..... What's the point of releasing tons of Drakes if all of them are basically the same, and if you can make one that's not basically the same.... Then where are they?

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Having actual RARES in those groups would also help. Regular dragons have the benefit of having almost every holiday devoted to them, golds, silvers and prizes. Pygmies do not have a shiny rare (but do have a holiday at least). Two headeds do not have a shiny rare.. drakes.. do not have a shiny rare. For the most part, they all appear to be rather common, and without a more rare breed to encourage more breeding lines, it does make them less likely to be bred. I understand that simply adding more rares is NOT really a solution, but it is a bit unfair that those groups cant have a rare simply because the regular dragons get the honor of having all the pretty shinies devoted to them. As they are their own breeding groups, it makes sense that they should have their own rares.. doesn't it?

You know, you really have a point there. Shiny rares in all of the groups would help things immensely in terms of wanting the 'minority' breeds. I like this idea a lot.

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The artists do a TON of work we don't see until it's released. If it's something we are thinking about as a player base, you can be about 500% certain it's something the Spriters have already thought of and/or are working on. However, you can go create one on your own. Nothing is stopping you from that.

well for starters im already working on two dragon requests doves and cervideas

 

but why would i want to work on a rare drake when chances are its going to be hard to find people who would want to sketch and sprite it when drakes arent all that popularly liked as other dragons? and since it would be rare i would get people asking for it not to be rare that it should be uncommon or it'll be better as just a common since its a drake

 

 

drakes are stuck in a vicious cycle one that is going to be very hard for them to escape from.

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You know, you really have a point there. Shiny rares in all of the groups would help things immensely in terms of wanting the 'minority' breeds. I like this idea a lot.

I'm not really sure it would help much at all. There's so much limit to what you can do with the sub-breeds right now, that you could only do 8 different lineages with them. Oh, you might get some really mega lineages, but why get the shiny other than to get a shiny.... if everyone's lineages is pretty much the same dragons? There's too little selection.

 

Also, by my count there are just 3 Drake breeds on the Completed List. Just. Three. But there are 20+ Pygmies. Though interestingly, only 1 Two-Head. xd.png

 

Cheers!

C4.

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I'm not really sure it would help much at all. There's so much limit to what you can do with the sub-breeds right now, that you could only do 8 different lineages with them. Oh, you might get some really mega lineages, but why get the shiny other than to get a shiny.... if everyone's lineages is pretty much the same dragons? There's too little selection.

 

Also, by my count there are just 3 Drake breeds on the Completed List. Just. Three. But there are 20+ Pygmies. Though interestingly, only 1 Two-Head. xd.png

 

Cheers!

C4.

Don't forget the suggestions list :/ there are people who are trying to make a variety of drakes

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Don't forget the suggestions list :/ there are people who are trying to make a variety of drakes

And also Pygmies and Two-Heads and regular Dragons and new Species.

 

I don't count them for the good and simple reason that a large majority of all Dragon Suggestions never make it to the completed list. Of course, most of the dragons on the completed list never get released, but.... Gotta draw the line somewhere.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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user posted image

 

I drew all of these in about half an hour. They're very bad and simplistic, and none of them have anything resembling a concept, but they're also all drakes and all distinct creatures.

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There's one problem with just adding rares... they simply won't get trurly rare I'm afraid, just because these breeding groups are so much not demanded... I mean I can't really believe that any drake, pygmy or 2-headed(but I somehow beleive 2-headed is a bit more likely) will ever reach the rarity and demand as e.g. Coppers or even Xenos(which, if you look at breeding, aren't rares but maybe uncommons becausse fo the user demand), not even mentioning Golds or Silvers...

 

as for holidays I don't think any other than Halloween is a good idea, Halloweens - yes, please but Christmas or Valentines? Hell, no! why should one gender have e.g. a Val to make lineages with but not the other? Some drakes have sprite dimorphism so it is very important one can use whichever they prefer to work with. (not that I will myself) They'd probably have to be released 2 Val drakes/pygmys/2-headeds in a row then. Or maybe better, at once?

So yeah, just the Halloween...

 

 

"1. Have four limbs/legs with leathery wings. - it doesn't specify a wing shape or limb length."

they all come with the struts, can't have wing fingers nor a wing thumb and the membrane must go along the tail for quite a distance. This IS contributing to how similar they all look like.

Also I remember reading thet the concept artist Dovalove stated that all drakes shoudl have the body like Ochredrakes?

 

Also the other issue is that acutally if you make a sprite following the DC drake's guide, you can still have it as a regular dragon.

DC drakes are a single style, a single image of a dragon, a single approach to a dragon's anatomy and general design(in terms of shapes) that was somehow featured just because the creator wished to have it special and TJ somehow allowed this... Why dragas were given up? I beleive it's exactly the same reason for which drakes shouldn't be there in the first place....^^;

 

Also with their size, sprites say they are of similar size to dragons, not pygmies. This could also be altered in the writing(because not in the sprites! this would only rin those we already have), they could be e.g. the size of a horse instead of a dog. It still isn't large while it would explain(and excuse) why the sprites are so similar in size to regular dragons instead of pygmies. some dragons are about this size after all, right?

 

 

On the sketches:

1st doesn't feel like a drake to me, non-forum users may fail to understand why it's a drake I'm afraid

2nd looks very much like the Tarantula Hawk with T-rex arms and short dinosaur body.

2 others don't have wings but other than that would be good I think.

(ps just dont' get me wrong, these all would make great dragons!, well maybe exept for the 2nd head+antlers type combo^^wink.gif

 

 

well, I got this:

user posted image

(it's in Sock's large drake suggestion thread, yellow drake)

but really, to me all them DC drakes are simply dragons of a particualr wing and 'horns'(->antlers) style...^^;

Edited by VixenDra

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All four drakes have wings. The last two are flightless, but they still possess fully functional wing arms. Whether the first "feels" like a drake to you is inconsequential to the fact that it fits all restrictive criteria, has a distinct form, and could still become a canon creature if it were ever sprited and selected for release by T.J. As for the tarantula hawk drake comment, I fail to see the resemblance myself but also don't particularly care because it's beside the point.

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user posted image

 

I drew all of these in about half an hour. They're very bad and simplistic, and none of them have anything resembling a concept, but they're also all drakes and all distinct creatures.

I would love to have any of these on my scroll, or even all of them.

 

I don't understand the whole 'the first one doesn't look like a Drake' comment either. Weren't people just complaining that Drakes all looked alike? A Drake that looked different is a good thing, I should think.

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laugh.gif I love your drake doodlies, Odeen. Make them happen!

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