Raffle or no raffle?

[AGYK]

I've been here since '08. I have worked on my scroll all those years, bargaining, trading, sweating hours over the AP and Cave.....and every time I managed somehow to get ahold of a long desired egg, it was an incredible feeling!! Like a high, almost.

 

And now, if the store is gonna sell rares/prizes/holidays etc, then I'll spend my time "grinding" to get those rares, and I know that the feeling won't be the same, plus the hours "grinding" will most likely breed resentment in me. How do I know this?

 

PWI. Perfect World. I played it for years too, always grinding, always trying really hard to make enough gold to get the good stuff, watching those who could "buy" gold get it all. Grinding took all the fun out, it was a chore. Even resorting to "buying zen" so I could grab those things too....and it didn't mean the same. And blew my budget. Like being hooked on drugs.

 

And now, they want to do something similar here, to one of the most pure games on the web. Kids come from other games and pressure to make DC just like those. I know, I've been there. But, I guess I'm one of the few to see it for the folly it is.

 

Raffles are fun. They give a small chance to get something good. But what point is playing if you can bore yourself grinding, then just get handed the good stuff? Where's the real fun in that?

I understand the high you refer to. It's the same high every experimenter gets after their first turn, and it's an amazing experience. I agree winning a raffle would produce such a high. But I disagree that it has to be the only way.

 

Raffles produce a few highs and a lot of salt across the playerbase as a whole. There's usually a ton of drama surrounding them. For this reason alone, I think discontinuing the raffle isn't a terrible idea.

 

But I don't think introducing a store has to be the game-ender you think it is. DC already requires a great deal of grinding or luck if you want CB rares - good luck finding a CB gold, CB pyral, etc. if you only have 15 minutes to spend. I don't think the store means you'll have to grind MMO-style for anything but the ultrarares (CB Hollies, CB prizes, etc.). Just a little quest or game or w/e every day or every week is perfectly fine.

 

I think the store thread is currently discussing a request board, where you have to collect X number of commons and trade them in for a rarer thing - that's not so different from building a lineage, where you start by collecting X number of CBs for the base. It's not even so different from current "have: 2g prize want: 42 CB common hatchies" trades (with the notable difference being that the store request board would actually exist, unlike such trade offers). One thing I'm certain of is that the store will offer no paid option, so there is no "buying zen" path for people to drift down, and certainly no drug-like money drip.

 

As far as fun goes, having access to pretty things is fun. Give me a CB prize and I guarantee I'll get amazing fun off randomly dropping 2gs on people's heads. Give me a CB Holly and I'll finally be able to look at building a 3g Thuwed Holly checker as a possibility rather than a pipe dream... and then I'll get amazing fun off dropping 2gs on people's heads. It's frickin' wonderful watching someone freak out because you just made their wildest dreams come true. It's awesome being on the receiving end of that, too.

 

If everyone has pretty things, there's something for everyone. The gifters will have amazing things to gift. The lineage-makers will have endless options for bloodswaps and lineage-building as high a gen as their hearts desire. The traders will have fodder for amazing trades. The poorer traders may even be able to negotiate their way up to pretty things because most of the powerplayers will already have pretty things, and may be more open to trading for bundles of CB hatchies or whathaveyou. This sounds like a great deal of fun for everyone involved.

 

What isn't fun is trying for impossible things. MMO-style grinding isn't enjoyable because you're chasing a 0.01% drop and you're competing with 50 other people for it. It's highly unlikely you'll ever see that item drop, and it's even less likely you'll ever get it. Eventually you get tired and bitter and you stop grinding, and as your gear gets less relevant you stop playing.

 

This is not unlike the current situation with 2g Hollies; I see so many powerplayers offering their scroll, their firstborn, and their last undershirt for a 2g and they can't find anything until 2018 or worse. I'm not even bothering to chase a 2g Holly because I already know I can't hope to compete. This is also how the average player sees 2g prizes. Some of us have the trading status, connections, and general luck to pick up 2g prizes. Many do not, and have no real hope of ever getting such a trade.

 

The way things are right now, the gifters have little to nothing to gift. Even 2g prizes don't offer much for gifting, as 3g prizes are pretty sharply devalued compared to their 2g counterparts. The lineage-makers have almost nothing to work with (I have yet to see an EG prize lineage go above 4g, and I think I've only ever seen a single 4g.) The power traders spend their time seeking bloodswaps that might not even exist. And the poorer players are stuck in a position where, barring some miracle, they'll need years to catch up. Judging from what I've seen, this is causing some fairly widespread frustration.

 

My question, at the end of all this, is fairly simple - but I suspect the answer is much less simple. Do you propose granting wider access to the ultrarares? If yes, how do you propose doing it? Super low drop rate in the cave, to reward those who can grind there for days on end? Super low drop rate in the AP, to reward those who hunt there for days on end? A raffle, to reward those who are lucky? A store, to reward those who have time to quest? Something entirely different? And if grinding is a problem, how do you propose avoiding it, given that every non-raffle option I mentioned requires a great deal of grinding?

[Riverwillows]

Huh? Why do I have to come up with a plan? I feel like I am being put on the spot just for voicing an opinion.

[AGYK]

Huh? Why do I have to come up with a plan? I feel like I am being put on the spot just for voicing an opinion.

Nah, not at all. I'm just curious, since I assumed you had something in mind. Didn't specifically have to be your answer anyway.

[Fuzzbucket]

When is the 10th Birthday? I'm unable to find out the real day.

May 20.

[PrimalLooti]

May 20.

Thanks. It'll be good to know just in case.

[demona3]

I understand the high you refer to. It's the same high every experimenter gets after their first turn, and it's an amazing experience. I agree winning a raffle would produce such a high. But I disagree that it has to be the only way.

 

Raffles produce a few highs and a lot of salt across the playerbase as a whole. There's usually a ton of drama surrounding them. For this reason alone, I think discontinuing the raffle isn't a terrible idea.

 

But I don't think introducing a store has to be the game-ender you think it is. DC already requires a great deal of grinding or luck if you want CB rares - good luck finding a CB gold, CB pyral, etc. if you only have 15 minutes to spend. I don't think the store means you'll have to grind MMO-style for anything but the ultrarares (CB Hollies, CB prizes, etc.). Just a little quest or game or w/e every day or every week is perfectly fine.

 

I think the store thread is currently discussing a request board, where you have to collect X number of commons and trade them in for a rarer thing - that's not so different from building a lineage, where you start by collecting X number of CBs for the base. It's not even so different from current "have: 2g prize want: 42 CB common hatchies" trades (with the notable difference being that the store request board would actually exist, unlike such trade offers). One thing I'm certain of is that the store will offer no paid option, so there is no "buying zen" path for people to drift down, and certainly no drug-like money drip.

 

As far as fun goes, having access to pretty things is fun. Give me a CB prize and I guarantee I'll get amazing fun off randomly dropping 2gs on people's heads. Give me a CB Holly and I'll finally be able to look at building a 3g Thuwed Holly checker as a possibility rather than a pipe dream... and then I'll get amazing fun off dropping 2gs on people's heads. It's frickin' wonderful watching someone freak out because you just made their wildest dreams come true. It's awesome being on the receiving end of that, too.

 

If everyone has pretty things, there's something for everyone. The gifters will have amazing things to gift. The lineage-makers will have endless options for bloodswaps and lineage-building as high a gen as their hearts desire. The traders will have fodder for amazing trades. The poorer traders may even be able to negotiate their way up to pretty things because most of the powerplayers will already have pretty things, and may be more open to trading for bundles of CB hatchies or whathaveyou. This sounds like a great deal of fun for everyone involved.

 

What isn't fun is trying for impossible things. MMO-style grinding isn't enjoyable because you're chasing a 0.01% drop and you're competing with 50 other people for it. It's highly unlikely you'll ever see that item drop, and it's even less likely you'll ever get it. Eventually you get tired and bitter and you stop grinding, and as your gear gets less relevant you stop playing.

 

This is not unlike the current situation with 2g Hollies; I see so many powerplayers offering their scroll, their firstborn, and their last undershirt for a 2g and they can't find anything until 2018 or worse. I'm not even bothering to chase a 2g Holly because I already know I can't hope to compete. This is also how the average player sees 2g prizes. Some of us have the trading status, connections, and general luck to pick up 2g prizes. Many do not, and have no real hope of ever getting such a trade.

 

The way things are right now, the gifters have little to nothing to gift. Even 2g prizes don't offer much for gifting, as 3g prizes are pretty sharply devalued compared to their 2g counterparts. The lineage-makers have almost nothing to work with (I have yet to see an EG prize lineage go above 4g, and I think I've only ever seen a single 4g.) The power traders spend their time seeking bloodswaps that might not even exist. And the poorer players are stuck in a position where, barring some miracle, they'll need years to catch up. Judging from what I've seen, this is causing some fairly widespread frustration.

 

My question, at the end of all this, is fairly simple - but I suspect the answer is much less simple. Do you propose granting wider access to the ultrarares? If yes, how do you propose doing it? Super low drop rate in the cave, to reward those who can grind there for days on end? Super low drop rate in the AP, to reward those who hunt there for days on end? A raffle, to reward those who are lucky? A store, to reward those who have time to quest? Something entirely different? And if grinding is a problem, how do you propose avoiding it, given that every non-raffle option I mentioned requires a great deal of grinding?

I can honestly say, I agree with you. I know I got a bit upset when I saw a newer user get a prize dragon over a user like me, who's been with the cave for about 5 years or so. So yes, it does create a lot of "salt".

Honestly, I always thought that prize dragons were too little awarded with the massive amount of people that play this game.

 

As far as your rares go, I honestly consider myself quite lucky to have a 4th gen Holly, with a Thuwed lineage ( http://dragcave.net/lineage/gLmJ5 ). A really nice person gifted it to me a few years ago. As far as me getting a 2nd gen holly.. that's a dream. So yes, the people that are catching up, I know their frustration. I remember when I tried to obtain some rare dragons, and people wouldn't even look at my trades. It's beyond terrible and frustrating.

 

My proposal - Offer alts of dragons (ones like the spriters get?), perhaps as a unique way of vastly expanding the dragon database? I know a few people might be against this idea. But at this point within the cave, what can be done to peak the interest of high end traders with the newer people that join, as in a way of helping them catch up?

 

 

 

[schenanigans]

My proposal - Offer alts of dragons (ones like the spriters get?), perhaps as a unique way of vastly expanding the dragon database?  I know a few people might be against this idea.  But at this point within the cave, what can be done to peak the interest of high end traders with the newer people that join, as in a way of helping them catch up?

Alts like what? We already have Black, Vine, & Undine Alts. Spriters get Alts as a thank you from TJ for the work they have put into the sprite and holiday events for us, so they deserve to be exclusive. And if you're suggesting more exclusive alts/sprites/CBs (other than SAs) then that sort of the defeats the purpose

 

Sorry, just a little confused at what you are suggesting here. (Could be because I am tired, about to be bed time for me!)

Edited February 29, 2016 by Areous

[Oddsoxdi]

I think demona3 is suggesting you offer trades with Spriters' alts in the lineage. That's how I interpreted that post.

[Fuzzbucket]

I think demona3 is suggesting you offer trades with Spriters' alts in the lineage. That's how I interpreted that post.

That's NOT how I interpreted it, I have to say. It sounded, at first, to me that demona3 wanted spriters' alts to be available as prizes. And - no way, for me. Not only that, but to get 2 gen spriters' alts, the spriters who own them would have to do the necessary breeding - again - not something that anyone has the right to demand of them. Otherwise - I REALLY can't support the creation of extra alts (or phantom breeding of existing ones without their owners choosing to do this) just so that 2 gens could be give out in raffles.

 

This one - for me - would be a TOTAL non-starter.

 

But I read again - and what she actually SAID was

alts of dragons (ones like the spriters get?)

 

Specially created alts. And again - no thanks. The store, if implemented - with CB prize dragons available in there - will work out fine. We don't need MORE borderline exclusive dragons to skew trading even more.

[schenanigans]

I think demona3 is suggesting you offer trades with Spriters' alts in the lineage. That's how I interpreted that post.

Yeah, this isn't how I interpreted it either. I'd have to agree with fuzzbucket. Asking for CB Alts like Spriter's Alts is not fair to the spriters themselves, imho. People have also already suggested (and have posted threads) asking for 2G Alts to be gifted or raffled off as prizes, and was promptly shut down because this is also not fair to the spriters. That's essentially like trying to force CB Prize owners to gift their 2nd Gen Prizes - not fair at all, as those are their dragons to breed and do with what they like.

 

Unfortunately, trading is highly subjective. I don't think spriters alts would have the effect that demona3 is hoping for, either way.

[demona3]

That's NOT how I interpreted it, I have to say. It sounded, at first, to me that demona3 wanted spriters' alts to be available as prizes. And - no way, for me. Not only that, but to get 2 gen spriters' alts, the spriters who own them would have to do the necessary breeding - again - not something that anyone has the right to demand of them. Otherwise - I REALLY can't support the creation of extra alts (or phantom breeding of existing ones without their owners choosing to do this) just so that 2 gens could be give out in raffles.

 

This one - for me - would be a TOTAL non-starter.

 

But I read again - and what she actually SAID was

 

 

Specially created alts. And again - no thanks. The store, if implemented - with CB prize dragons available in there - will work out fine. We don't need MORE borderline exclusive dragons to skew trading even more.

Um. I didn't say for spriters alts to be the rewards. I was suggesting other alts (colors) to be rewards.

 

For example:

 

Flamingo - an alt color would be a blue flamingo.

 

Or perhaps a reward would be to offer any dragon you like in a different color of your choosing (if that was a possible thing).

 

Sorry, I should of clarified my suggestion. Once again, I would never try to step on spriter's by taking their alts. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited March 2, 2016 by demona3

[Fuzzbucket]

Um. I didn't say for spriters alts to be the rewards. I was suggesting other alts (colors) to be rewards.

 

For example:

 

Flamingo - an alt color would be a blue flamingo.

 

Or perhaps a reward would be to offer any dragon you like in a different color of your choosing (if that was a possible thing).

 

Sorry, I should of clarified my suggestion. Once again, I would never try to step on spriter's by taking their alts. Sorry for the confusion.

Don't worry - most of us got it ! We were just clarifying. But this would also mean a lot of extra work for spriters, and would add to the problem of very hard to get dragons via raffles.

 

The store would offer a level playing field - everyone could work to get anything over time. An end to the drama and sorrow.

[Fiona]

My proposal - Offer alts of dragons (ones like the spriters get?), perhaps as a unique way of vastly expanding the dragon database? I know a few people might be against this idea. But at this point within the cave, what can be done to peak the interest of high end traders with the newer people that join, as in a way of helping them catch up?

I'm opposed to this on a couple levels. For starters, having one person have the only different color variation on a dragon gives them incredible trading power. In hindsight I'm not sure Spriters' Alts were such a great idea for that very reason, even though I love mine to death. Having a single dragon with that particular color variant would create a worse problem than the prizes did.

 

Second objection is asking the sprite artist for that dragon to create all those exclusive color variants. Recolors are easy, yes, but getting the new colors properly balanced does take some effort. And what are you going to do about dragons whose sprite artist is no longer part of the site?

 

If the raffles themselves created a rift in the player base, greatly exaggerating the "haves" and the "have nots" awarding personal color variants would be like a fan to a flame.

 

It's far better, in my opinion, to work towards healing that rift by doing away with the raffles entirely and finding a different mechanic to keep CB prizes and older holidays entering the game. That same mechanic would also be a way to allow players who otherwise have no hope of catching their own rare dragons to earn one through play. That's why I support the store idea - right now the suggestion is that one can earn things simply by playing the game, with a cap so grinding huge amounts of time isn't really an option.

 

We don't really need a way to vastly expand the dragon database. Simply releasing new breeds periodically is sufficient. Having a lovely variety is nice, but having tons of "there's only one X with Y color, see player Z for that" is not only polarizing for the player base but boring. That isn't real variety.

[Paradisiske]

are we gonna have a raffle this year?

[andromedae]

I've been wondering the same thing. I hope we do get one.

[Sazandora]

NO. No more raffles. They've brought nothing but misery and drama and salt everywhere. Edited January 2, 2017 by Neekerisanni123

[Bigbite]

NO. No more raffles. They've brought nothing but misery and drama and salt everywhere.

I take it you don't want any more stinking raffles?

[Fuzzbucket]

I take it you don't want any more stinking raffles?

No and nor do I. There has to be a better way. But if there isn't let's do without CBs. Because the raffles were just TOO divisive.

[Oddsoxdi]

are we gonna have a raffle this year?

Lordy I hope not! Raffles tend to bring out the worst in people - lots of resentment and other unpleasantnesses.

[Paradisiske]

but how else are we going to get cb prizes? the store and releasing them incave havent happened and only the raffle is the known staple of getting them

[Juzi]

0.o this is an old thread

 

I assume not, since 2015 was raffle-less, I'd assume 2016 would be the same

[Jazeki]

but how else are we going to get cb prizes? the store and releasing them incave havent happened and only the raffle is the known staple of getting them

We probably won't.

 

As I said many, many posts ago, I'm not holding my breath for a raffle and while it's good to hold out hope if you really want one, you shouldn't bank on it being a thing ever again. They were limited edition and that's probably how they'll stay from now on unless TJ decides otherwise.

[Fuzzbucket]

We just need to keep pushing for the store.

 

You could equally well ask how people who joined later on in the game are going to get CBs of old holidays. Very likely - they never will. Even in the raffles, few of those were allowed as HMs.

Edited January 3, 2017 by fuzzbucket

[EscapistLore]

We just need to keep pushing for the store.

 

You could equally well ask how people who joined later on in the game are going to get CBs of old holidays. Very likely - they never will. Even in the raffles, few of those were allowed as HMs.

But at the same time, for all holidays (not counting hollies), if you were there in the cave? You could get CBs. To me, this makes sense.

 

For prizes, if you were there? Most of us didn't get em. Not complaining. Just reality.

 

So comparing them to old holidays doesn't quite feel right to me... I wish the store would be implemented, or something.

[Fuzzbucket]

I wish for the store too. But CBs that ended up unobtainable are the name of the game for some things.

 

I'd LIKE to see us able to save for CB prizes AND for CB past holidays in season - subject to whatever seasonal CB limits are in force (I hope for that to rise to 4, as well...)

Edited January 3, 2017 by fuzzbucket