Make unpopular breeds more popular

[NotBambi]

After reading olympe's comment (see below) on the Shuffle Commons in the Biomes thread, I thought this topic could be useful. Long story short, I'm suggesting that the least popular breeds should be given a makeover by:

• Sprite update: I'm thinking of updates like the one that was released few weeks ago for the Splits. There was almost general consensus on that type of update. The following could be added:
  • Dimorphism.
  • Different colors (i.e. Pyralspites)
  • Different sprites (see Xenos)

P.S. - I'm intentionally leaving out any reference to BSA to avoid the Dead Zone.

 

 

Actually, there are several threads around with suggestions of how to fix the biome blocking problem, but I didn't find a "make unpopular breeds more popular" thread on the pages 3 to 30. (Just in case someone else picks up the challenge.)

 

But, to give a short recap of what I remember/found while searching the suggestions forums about how to get the biomes to move:

 

Regular egg shuffle for every refresh. (Usually shot down in an instant because it didn't work when TJ tried it many years ago.)

 

This suggestion, to shuffle only eggs of about the same rarity / only common eggs

 

Change the ways ratios work / do away with ratios

 

Making commons more interesting through various means:

 

Punting blockers to the AP at every 5-minute-shuffle / every hour

 

creating alts / color morphs

 

adding hybrids for blockers

 

giving blockers a BSA

 

mossy eggs (don't remember what they did, to be honest)

 

store (where you get "points" or "money" for raising blockers)

 

forum actions (raise commons for special dragons)

 

Ascension (especially interesting for blockers!)

 

 

 

Edit - quoting myself:

Browsed the forum very quickly and figured out a few things:

- Punting blockers to the AP - topic started on Jun 19 2013, 01:10 PM - not implemented

- store (where you get "points" or "money" for raising blockers) - topic started on Jan 12 2015, 01:21 PM - not implemented

- Ascension - topic started on Mar 8 2011, 02:35 PM - not implemented

At that point I stopped. If olympe does not remember what the mossy eggs were for, probably is not worth looking for. And if something is on the BSA area: RIP.

Guess what, we have been asking for several things for quite a bit. Personally I'm a fan of punting the blockers to the AP and of the store suggestions. But those suggestions did not get implemented. Instead, in the meantime, updates of sprites have been done. I'm all for to keep asking for changes on ratio behavior and other suggestions. But, why would we miss an opportunity to maybe influence a bit the next round of updates?

 

 

Edited December 16, 2015 by NotBambi

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Nope. I want more biome circulation / mossy eggs / incentives to raise commons via less stupid breeding ratios (ie, make it so breeding two commons together doesn't always seem to favor one breed 99% of the time--see my spirit ward x royal crimson complaint) and some in game reward for raising masses of commons (like one CB Gold per 1000 commons raised)

 

And more BSAs! There are so many useful and cute suggestions sitting half dead in the BSA forum...

Edited December 16, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Odeen]

Given how the nilia update was received, and how adding dimorphism on an old breed can really mess with lineages (a long time ago I bred M Nocturne x F Sunset checkers - the sunset dimorphism update put a stop to that really quick), I don't know that adding dimorphism should necessarily be on your list of ways to make breeds more popular.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Also from what I've seen, looks aren't the be all end all when it comes to making common breeds get picked up quicker. Pillows, magelights, glaucus drakes, frostbites, and seragammas are just a few off the top of my head that are very good looking, but still mostly considered caveblockers because there's simply too many of them. If their offspring don't trade for much or they don't easily make lineages with each other (see my post above), then there's not much incentive for anyone but the most diehard hoarders to get more than a dozen or two, even if they are very pretty.

[cyradis4]

The reason there are blockers is because there is no internal way for the Cave to make under-populated breeds more "valuable".

 

Oh, sprite updates, dimorphism (very bad idea), and different sprites (and BSAs and whatnot) may SEEM like they address the problem: but they do NOT.

 

They are a one-time bandaid for a problem that is constantly in flux.

 

What breeds block (are the worst under-populated) change over time. Many of the breeds that blocked a few years ago are not blocking now, and that was with NO changes to them. And take blacks! They went from super common - to super rare (trading 1:1 with CB Golds) back to common-ish (now).

 

If you want to address the problem of stagnant biomes and blockers, you have to dynamically address the root of the problem: that the Cave is always going to produce more of certain breeds than the userbase wants. And it has no way correct itself!

 

The easiest way to solve that problem is to make those unwanted eggs more "wanted" *only* when they are blockers. This includes, but is not limited to:

- Giving them a special BSA after sitting in the Biomes

- Decreasing the time to raise them to adult

- Make the penalty for grabbing and tossing to the AP less

- Give those blockers some intrinsic value en-mass to encourage collection when they are blockers (points systems, things like the Holly Contest)

 

There are several suggestions out already for what I outlined above.

 

What will not and will NEVER permanantly solve the blocker problem is what you've outlined. You may succeed in a temporary increase in the rarity of a breed. But chances are, you will NOT.... because most of the userbase already has what they want, won't want more, and you've just infuriated the lineage builders by destroying their lineages they have with those breeds so THEY won't use them (dimorphism) or giving them massing headaches when using said breeds (alts of any sort).

 

So while your heart is in the right place, this will not be a viable solution and could make the problem worse in the short term by alienating those who DO use the dragon in lineages currently.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Jazeki]

No support. Given that each sprite update comes with mixed reactions (and vocal disagreements on either side), I support trying the other methods at making commons "more interesting."

 

There is a fluctuation in breed popularity now as it is without any changes and many people have different opinions on the various sprites regardless of whether or not they are popular.

 

This suggestion has a high chance of failure by alienating users who are already wary of any sprite updates as it does more than affect how popular a sprite is. Sprite updates can also change lineages, which are now an integral part of the game. If this had fewer consequences that directly relate to individual gameplay like the addition of a BSA or the use of mossy eggs or shuffle or something like that, it might be more well-received.

[dragongrrl]

What's popular for some people are unpopular with others, and vice-versa.

 

Personally, I have no interest in female Moonstones and never completed a project I started with them, just because I don't care for the color, and have no interest at this point. But they seem to have many supporters, even though I consider them boring. I'm also part of a group of Mint fans who quickly scoop up any mass breed that hits the AP, yet there are others who complain any time more than one or two Mints appear in the AP. Balloon collectors are currently having problems finding Balloon eggs, also considered less than desirable by some other players.

 

So, criteria for such a broad-blanket, subjective suggestion would be very difficult to pin down. No support.

 

 

[HeartJacker13]

Giving them a special BSA after sitting in the Biomes

My only argument against this is: there will just be a different blocker to take its place. Sooner or later, if we did this, every dragon will have to have a special BSA. It's just an unfortunate way to look at things.

[Tango]

The only one I can see working is the different colours one. Ie - more alts. The other two would mess up lineages. Although maybe some dimorphism for some of the older dragons would be nice, the greens, vines or magis.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Quoting myself from the other thread

 

I agree there is a problem, but I don't think this will fix it.

 

The problem is the ratios themselves. The more the site grows, the more the ratios are going to be out of whack. Until TJ gets rid of the ratios and comes up with some other way to drop eggs, this problem will persist AND get worse. As I see it, eggs should be dropped by rarity alone and not by their population.

[stagazer_7]

Hmm, I don't think simply updating the sprite would solve the blocker status issue. Horses just got a dimorphic sprite and even though I liked that change, it still doesn't compel me to hoard them and they're still just as easy to grab from the Cave and AP.

 

I agree with Cinnamin Draconna, it's the ratios that are problematic here as they define the rarity and with it to some extent even the popularity of the dragon - I still remember Blacks being extremely hard to catch in the Cave, Stripes used to be pretty hard to come by too, not to mention Seasonals who used to be commons then took a vacation in rare-ville and are now uncommons. Each time the trading value (and popularity) of the breed increased - CB's were worth quite a lot and were gone from the Cave in a flash, while nowdays they tend to sit for a while before being picked up.

 

I support something being done, like shuffling blockers and dropping those that have been sitting in the Cave for too long to the AP to help move things along, but I feel that a sprite update won't really be of much help here. And more BSA's, that could also help. <3

Edited December 16, 2015 by stagazer_7

[NotBambi]

Browsed the forum very quickly and figured out a few things:

- Punting blockers to the AP - topic started on Jun 19 2013, 01:10 PM - not implemented

- store (where you get "points" or "money" for raising blockers) - topic started on Jan 12 2015, 01:21 PM - not implemented

- Ascension - topic started on Mar 8 2011, 02:35 PM - not implemented

At that point I stopped. If olympe does not remember what the mossy eggs were for, probably is not worth looking for. And if something is on the BSA area: RIP.

Guess what, we have been asking for several things for quite a bit. Personally I'm a fan of punting the blockers to the AP and of the store suggestions. But those suggestions did not get implemented. Instead, in the meantime, updates of sprites have been done. I'm all for to keep asking for changes on ratio behavior and other suggestions. But, why would we miss an opportunity to maybe influence a bit the next round of updates?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Because some of us would prefer to influence things towards not updating instead.

[cyradis4]

Browsed the forum very quickly and figured out a few things:

- Punting blockers to the AP - topic started on Jun 19 2013, 01:10 PM - not implemented

- store (where you get "points" or "money" for raising blockers) - topic started on Jan 12 2015, 01:21 PM - not implemented

- Ascension - topic started on Mar 8 2011, 02:35 PM - not implemented

At that point I stopped. If olympe does not remember what the mossy eggs were for, probably is not worth looking for. And if something is on the BSA area: RIP.

Guess what, we have been asking for several things for quite a bit. Personally I'm a fan of punting the blockers to the AP and of the store suggestions. But those suggestions did not get implemented. Instead, in the meantime, updates of sprites have been done. I'm all for to keep asking for changes on ratio behavior and other suggestions. But, why would we miss an opportunity to maybe influence a bit the next round of updates?

Because updates are more likely to hurt blockers than to help them?

 

Even with the lovely dimorphism, Horses are not in demand. Same with Nilias, and every other sprite update.

 

Generally, everyone gets what they want of a sprite, and an update only causes a very brief surge.... if any surge, and has no lasting effect on the breed. I have never seen a sprite update change the demand for a dragon.

 

For me, this isn't a matter of updating / not updating... I'm against this because it just won't *work*.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[NotBambi]

Because some of us would prefer to influence things towards not updating instead.

And do you think that just saying "no, no, no" to any alternative and/or compromise will get you anywhere?

[Nine]

But, why would we miss an opportunity to maybe influence a bit the next round of updates?

Because it wouldn't do anything to improve ratios, as time and previous examples have shown, would play havoc on current lineages and collectors, could be better spent making new breeds... and so on, as others have mentioned before me.

 

And who's to say previously-suggested fixes won't be implemented? I don't know if you've been around for very long, but features and changes tend to take a very long time to see fruition on DC. People are still waiting for the inactive name grabbing feature that was mentioned a while ago. Just because it's not implemented now doesn't mean it won't ever be.

 

That last sentence almost makes me wonder if there's an ulterior motive behind this suggestion, disguised as a way to fix ratios? Lol. If you have grievances with certain people or parts of the community, I think there are better ways to go about resolving such issues, such as by PM. Just tossing that out there.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And do you think that just saying "no, no, no" to any alternative and/or compromise will get you anywhere?

I've supported half a dozen other suggestions, including one just made today (yesterday?) to get biomes moving. I've also given several reasons (with possible fixes included!) as to why I think there are other issues at hand making commons undesirable that have nothing to do with how the sprites look. There are many cute dragons, as I've mentioned, that are blockers despite having lovely and high quality artwork.

 

All of the above is me doing much more than dragging my butt and crying no about every possible suggestion, methinks.

Edited December 17, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Copy / paste of my thoughts from other thread. New post instead of edit so it won't be missed:

 

I don't think how sprites look has much to do with how wanted commons are. A quick glance at the biomes just now shows magelight, ember, and sunsong dragons sitting, and those are all good looking breeds by most people's standards. I mean, yes, really ugly breeds (cough brimstones cough--even though I think they are meant to be ugly by design ) might be less valued, and conversely cuter breeds (ie moonstones) slightly more valued, but I think the bigger issues are:

 

1) Making lineages with commons is really aggravating due to stupid ratios. I can make uncommon x uncommon lines more quickly than I can common x common. I have been trying for MONTHS to get royal crimsons from a bunch of spirit wards, and despite trying about ten pairs a week, have only one crimson so far. That's messed up, considering royal crimsons are pretty much rabbit breeders with everything else. When you have the ratios making breeding between two commons feel as hard as breeding for metallics, with much less reward when you succeed, it hardly encourages one to try. And aside from bad lineage prospects...

 

2) there's little incentive to collect commons. Unless someone is a hoarder, most people quickly tire of collecting commons, since they're so easy to get and so useless in trade. One great example is pillows. They are some of my favorite sprites in the cave, and very common--so common, in fact, that collecting them is no longer really interesting or worth my time. For those who play Pokemon, it's like collecting a hundred zigzagoons and instantly stuffing them all in a PC box. I love zigzagoons, think they are one of the cutest Pokemon, but they're so easy and unrewarding to get that just having a box full of them to look at gets old fast. On DC this problem is worsened all the more by just how many commons there are for very few rares. I think one way the problem could be alleviated, however, is if there were in game rewards for raising things classed as common, such as 500 commons for a CB Silver or 1000 for a CB Gold. Such high numbers would both represent a challenge and keep rares from appearing in over abundance and wrecking the ratios. As far as what's considered "common," it could simply be whatever's in the highest 25% of breeds produced by the cave at the exact time the egg is created.

Edited December 17, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[danicast]

I'm not a fan of sprites updates. I think I got lucky that I love the new silvers (my best friend just hated them and quit DC) but the nillia wasn't a good update for me. I like the old sprite better. I always postponed the work to collect pygmies because I was busy collecting something else so I only have 4 nillias. I think I won't be hunting for more anymore.

Also there are some blockers that I think are lovely like the nocturnals and tangars and I wouldn't like to see those sprites change.

 

So, no support. As many others said I also agree the problem are the ratios.

[NotBambi]

I've supported half a dozen other suggestions, including one just made today (yesterday?) to get biomes moving. I've also given several reasons (with possible fixes included!) as to why I think there are other issues at hand making commons undesirable that have nothing to do with how the sprites look. There are many cute dragons, as I've mentioned, that are blockers despite having lovely and high quality artwork.

 

All of the above is me doing much more than dragging my butt and crying no about every possible suggestion, methinks.

As you know I was replying to your post about updating. Nothing else.

[Ha-Ki]

I agree with almost everyone else in this thread, changing the sprites will not make blockers more popular. What makes them unpopular is that it is so easy to get them (lack of challenge), and there's little to do with them, because building lineages with blockers can be ridiculously frustrating.

 

The only way I could see a sprite update make commons more popular is introducing recolored alts. If those are relatively rare and breed-only, people will pick up the blockers and raise them to breed them. Problem is: As soon as one blocker becomes uncommon due to suddenly having an alt, another one will take its place.

 

@ mossy egg suggestion: I think the suggestion was that eggs that sit in a biome for a certain amount of time would change to a mossy egg. The dragon hatching from it would be the original blocker breed, but it would have some special mossy BSA. That would encourage people to raise them to adulthood and keep them on their scrolls for the BSA.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

In which case, I still don't think updating sprites would fix the problem, while I do think it would tick many of the people who love the breeds most off. So if the choice is between supporting something I think is a bad idea and adamantly saying no over and over in hopes that someone listens, yes, I choose the latter. Better to stick to my guns, even uselessly, then fold and vote for something I disagree with.

 

I think there are many better ideas to fix the problem, while this would fix little to nothing and cause new problems ong the way. I'm sorry if my thinking so seems anti-progress and whiny to you.

Edited December 17, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[NotBambi]

That last sentence almost makes me wonder if there's an ulterior motive behind this suggestion, disguised as a way to fix ratios? Lol. If you have grievances with certain people or parts of the community, I think there are better ways to go about resolving such issues, such as by PM. Just tossing that out there.

I'm quite bemused and I've no idea what you mean with "ulterior motive behind this suggestion". I've no grievances with anybody, not even with the pair of scammers I met so far. I agree with some people on some subjects and disagree with those same people on other subjects. No reason for grievance, I don't get upset about pixels or adoptable sites, reserve that for real life. And if you are insinuating something, maybe YOU should bring that to PM.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Okay, I went through and compiled a list of some dragons still considered fairly common that have received dimorphism / quality updates in the past:

 

Grays

Whiptails

Nilias

Splits

Horses (updated TWICE, once for quality, once for dimorphism)

Waters

Sunrises / Sunsets

Nocturnes

Neotropicals

 

Even if these aren't the current worst of the cave blockers, many of them still spend quite a lot of time languishing in the cave, untaken, despite all the improvements / changes they've had. On top of this, some of these changes were taken quite negatively; I mean, Nilias were the most drastic update, totally new poses and dimorphism, and all I saw were messed up lineages and large lanky legged mosquito dragons where I once saw cute tiny squishes. Many other people were also sad about it.

 

So, we've had these things done before, and they don't seem to work, but do often upset some of the most dedicated collectors of the breeds in the process. Why? Because I don't think, again, that art quality is the main problem here. Also, speaking of art quality: aside from some of the oldest sprites, many of the more recent (within 5 year) cave blockers have totally sound, well made sprites. Do we really want to waste artistic effort replacing those, on top of all the other things I don't think would help, or would actually hurt?

 

So yah, nope, don't support this.

Edited December 17, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[tjekan]

I think it's a mistake to assume that overpopulated breeds are necessarily overpopulated because people don't like them. A few of them might be, sure, but most cave-blocker breeds are overpopulated simply because of the way their ratios are set.

 

A couple of data points worth mentioning here:

 

1) Adding dimorphism to horses did not stop horses from being cave blockers.

2) Adding multiple color phases usually just increases demand for whichever color is rarest at the expense of the others, thus doesn't really make the breed more popular overall. Look how long purple ridgewings and purple dorsals sit around in the AP.

3) The rarity of a dragon has a much more direct causal effect on its popularity than its sprite beauty does. If a dragon is rare then people will grab it even if they find it ugly as sin (look how many people have admitted they found the old silver sprite ugly, yet still had dozens of them and intentionally built lineages with them.) If a dragon is super common then no one would ever want to grab one from the cave no matter how awesome it is because they know they can easily find a CB of that breed on the AP with lower time.

 

The only two things that I consider likely to increase a cave-blocker breed's popularity with cave hunters are

1) giving it a BSA, or

2) tweaking the ratios to make it slightly less common.

 

I'm not opposed to #2. I think some of the breeds we have now are TOO too common and therefore are taken for granted. There's a huge disincentive to grab an egg from the cave when you can easily get the same egg from the AP at lower time and without the inability to drop it if you change your mind.

 

I'd prefer getting rid of the ratio thing entirely, though, given my druthers. It worked well when there were fewer breeds, but has now become a millstone around the site's neck in my opinion. You can hardly breed anything else from a newer breed because the site thinks we're all 7 years behind in collecting them.

 

ETA: Can somebody link me to the suggestions thread about ratios? I cannot find it and now I really want to go agree with it. :-)

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by tjekan