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Pokemonfan13

Shuffle Commons in the Biomes on Refresh

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Basically, shuffling the entire drop so that each refresh shows a different set of three is not a good idea and has been suggested before. But the biggest problem with it is the fact that it allows plucking of rares within the first few minutes. It would cause a big scrum at the top of the hour followed by a drop depleted of anything desirable and messed up ratios since all the commons that go with the rares won't be taken. And from that comes my suggestion:

 

Shuffle only the most common. Basically if a super common dragon is in slot 3, slot 3 shuffles between the most common dragons of that biome, with a new common appearing in that slot on each refresh. It continues to do so until someone takes it, when the next egg appears as usual. If the next egg is uncommon or rare it acts like things currently do, where it sits until taken. If the next egg is common it starts shuffling again. TJ decides how common a breed has to be to shuffle.

 

Like now, the less common dragons don't appear until enough eggs are taken for them to be "reached", but those who want something that should be easy to find due to its commonness can find it quickly. Right now even hunting for a blocker can be quite time consuming if the biome isn't moving, and often they don't. There are enough dragons in the cave right now that the chances that the specific common you want being there are rather low. I can check alpine and volcano for guardians and find none, and find none for quite some time, when other times they sit there forever.

 

If the commons shuffle themselves, then the people who want a specific common can take what they want easily and get the cave moving better.

 

The only problem I see is the more popular commons being plucked out, leaving the less popular ones to back up, messing up the ratios. The easiest solution would be to just dump the "extras" (determined by the ratios) of the less popular commons directly into the AP, where they will be happily picked up at a lower time.

 

The other possible problem I see is based on releases, where freshly released common dragons would be plucked from the shuffle since they're more desirable than their rarity should indicate. This could be easily solved by treating all newly released dragons as uncommon in this system for at least a few months to let the frenzy die down a bit before allowing those that belong into the shuffle.

 

I obviously don't know the details about how the site sees different breeds, but even if breeds aren't defined as "common" or "uncommon" I could still see this working. It would just be based on how many of each breed are spawned each hour, with TJ working out what percentage of the spawn a breed needs to get to be deemed "common" enough for the shuffle. That might be a better system than set definitions, since it allows a popular breed that is "common" but is bred so much that the ratios deem it to need fewer eggs spawned to be treated as "uncommon" in the shuffle system, preventing the plucking of the extra popular "common" breed's eggs. Or TJ could come up with a better system to determine if a breed should be designated "common". xP

 

 

Tangent, not really part of the idea, but needs at least mentioned:

To me those least popular commons also need attention, not just a dump into the AP, as they are usually less popular for a reason. The AP dump system would also give a perfect opportunity to figure out which breeds really do need the most attention. Something should be done to remedy the problem rather than just leaving them to languish, such as a BSA that makes them more useful or even just more fun. BSAs that have no actual utility could still cause hoarding for BSA use if the BSA is fun and having more dragons means more uses. Sprite updates might help some of the oldest blockers perk up, as well. And yes, I know about the problem with sprite updates, but the splits prove that they can be done well.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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As much as I would like this - so many times I've been hunting for a waverunner and it's came up with nothing - I don't think it would happen. TJ keeps his ratios a secret and I pretty sure he isn't going to tell us anytime soon.

 

However, in saying that. Yes please, sign me up.

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I support the common shuffles and moving the unpicked ones to the AP after a while very much! ☻

How many times have I been hunting a simple über common dragons I see every day and at the time I needed them they were gone for hours and same commons blocked the cave every 5 minute refresh rolleyes.gif

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This suggestion is somewhat similar to the suggestion to send biome blockers to the AP, with the added idea of including the shuffle deliberately into the mix. So, yes. I think something like this is desperately needed. We need a way to get the biomes to move while encouraging the under-populated breeds to be picked up.

 

Hunting conditions as they are right now in the cave make hunting discouraging. As this is a central mechanic of the game I think it seriously needs addressing and this suggestion does that in what I think is a balanced way.

 

One idea for how TJ might decide what shufffles and what doesn't is how under-populated or over-populated a breed is. This is something I think his code must already calculate as it would have to take that into account when determining what drops. So breeds that are over-populated wouldn't shuffle. I'm not sure about breeds that are currently at their optimum population but certainly breeds that are under-populated would shuffle, bringing a greater variety to the surface.

 

Sending the ones that aren't picked up in the cave to the AP would have the effect eventually of balancing out the ratios so that less breeds would be considered under-populated. Right now the 5 minute shuffle seems to be having the effect of allowing people to pluck out the somewhat more desirable commons and the uncommons and rares while leaving the ones considered "blockers" behind - which then get deleted at the top of the hour when new eggs are generated. TJ would have to confirm but if people are constantly plucking the favorites from the mix and leaving the "blockers" which are under-populated already to be deleted, then the under-populated breeds would slowly become more and more under-populated, requiring more and more of them to be generated at the top of each hour.

 

 

Sprite updates are only going to go so far in making a breed more popular. BSAs would help them if we could think of appropriate BSAs, but "fun but not useful" BSAs aren't going to make that big a difference either. After all, how many of us grab pebbles when we see them? They have a BSA that isn't considered particularly useful so it doesn't help make them more popular. Pinks on the other hand...

 

What really seems to make a breed popular is either being hard to get (and therefore being deemed worthy as trade fodder) or having multiple color morphs. (added) or a useful BSA. By useful I mean like influence, incubate or teleport. Something that causes people to want large numbers of that dragon for what they can do.

Edited by Fiona BlueFire

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I obviously don't know the details about how the site sees different breeds, but even if breeds aren't defined as "common" or "uncommon" I could still see this working. It would just be based on how many of each breed are spawned each hour, with TJ working out what percentage of the spawn a breed needs to get to be deemed "common" enough for the shuffle. That might be a better system than set definitions, since it allows a popular breed that is "common" but is bred so much that the ratios deem it to need fewer eggs spawned to be treated as "uncommon" in the shuffle system, preventing the plucking of the extra popular "common" breed's eggs. Or TJ could come up with a better system to determine if a breed should be designated "common". xP

I especially like this part, or Fiona's suggestion:

One idea for how TJ might decide what shufffles and what doesn't is how under-populated or over-populated a breed is. This is something I think his code must already calculate as it would have to take that into account when determining what drops. So breeds that are over-populated wouldn't shuffle. I'm not sure about breeds that are currently at their optimum population but certainly breeds that are under-populated would shuffle, bringing a greater variety to the surface.

 

Or some other system that takes into account what is actually dropping this hour, instead of defining certain breeds as blockers.

 

About making blockers more popular: Especially newer blocker breeds only seem to give their own kind's egg. I've seen people desperately trying to breed a horse from nhiostrife, a moonstone from blue-banded or a mint from colossus. That keeps me from building lineages with newer commons. There are a few BSA suggestions around to increase the chance of getting a certain egg from the breeding, or excluding the unwanted breed from the results. One of those would help making lineages with blockers easier, and might also help a bit in making them more popular.

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Sprite updates are only going to go so far in making a breed more popular. BSAs would help them if we could think of appropriate BSAs, but "fun but not useful" BSAs aren't going to make that big a difference either. After all, how many of us grab pebbles when we see them? They have a BSA that isn't considered particularly useful so it doesn't help make them more popular. Pinks on the other hand...

Except pebbles are a bad example. They're not "fun" at all, they are likely to kill your eggs. Right now we really don't have any "fun but not useful" BSAs of the type I'm imagining. The closest is "splash", but it's a little too "not useful" and not quite enough "fun". Something like the "sandcastle" BSA suggested for waverunners, where it gives you access to an actual game or item to decorate, but with a long enough cooldown that if you want to play at all often you need a bit of a hoard. I mention the "fun" type BSA because it's impossible to come up with something useful for every overpopulated blocker breed that TJ is going to be willing to implement. Eventually you'll hit a point where the actions suggested are not ones he wants to add to the game, or the actions aren't quite useful enough to make people bother. Like earthquake, actually, if the action isn't properly useful just giving the breed a BSA isn't enough to make it more popular. Including fun actions at least gives some reason to pick up the less popular breeds, even if it isn't perfect.

 

And you're right, sprite updates are only going to go so far. But some breeds may only need that little bump. There were a lot of posts in the news thread with the split update saying that the poster never really bothered with splits before, but that they're now thinking of hoarding them a bit or starting a lineage project with them. A breed could easily go from blocker to normal common with that kind of interest change. The goal isn't to turn each blocker into something traded in rare trades, which is what happened with pinks (at least for a while, are they still there?), it's just to make them less unwanted.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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I'm seeing several suggestions here that should be worthy of having their own thread (to not be drowned smile.gif ) leaving this to the shuffle only. For example: one about updating the sprites of unpopular breeds, giving them different colors and, eventually, dimorphism. Would like to see a discussion about adding a BSA to those unpopular breeds but I'm afraid it would end in the BSA-cemetery area of the forum. Thoughts?

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Pebbles weren't a stellar example because no, their BSA isn't "fun." It is an example of a BSA that isn't an incentive to pick up pebbles. The "fun" ideas you have may not either. It may be enough to turn a marginal case into optimal populations, just as the sprite updates may be. Just making it easier to hunt for those marginal breeds in the cave may be enough for them to go from marginal to optimal numbers.

 

Pinks are not on the rare list anymore, but they can still be a little hard to find. For a BSA to have that kind of effect it needs to be more than "fun" but a staple for gameplay. Otherwise a lot of people won't bother.

 

Frankly, if it were up to me, I'd implement this suggestion in stages. First just try the shuffle the way you've outlined, with eggs punted to the AP rather than deleted if they aren't picked up. Then for breeds still lagging behind in their populations, decide if a simple sprite update would be enough. If not, try a BSA of some kind. Then if that doesn't do it, consider stronger measures such as color morphs.

 

 

ETA: NotBambi: in essence, the way PF13 has it outlined, this thread is a "There is a problem in the cave. This multi-pronged proposal may be the solution." thread. Separating the different parts into their own thread would lead to the overall picture being lost or diluted. If you only talk about the shuffle you lose sight of the fact that the shuffle alone may not be enough to help some breeds that have always tended to be unloved. The specific BSA ideas may need their own thread in the BSA section but they'll be doomed to drowning in their without discussion of how that idea impacts this overall solution.

Edited by Fiona BlueFire

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You're right about how this should be implemented. The shuffle is the core idea, the rest are ways to fix little problems with it, and I got on a bit of a tangent about making unpopular breeds more popular. xP If nothing else, the shuffle with AP kicking would help identify what breeds need help the most.

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You're right about how this should be implemented. The shuffle is the core idea, the rest are ways to fix little problems with it, and I got on a bit of a tangent about making unpopular breeds more popular. xP If nothing else, the shuffle with AP kicking would help identify what breeds need help the most.

It is because the shuffle is the core idea that I would still prefer to see a thread about the "tangent". For what concerns implementation, TJ would choose what could be implemented first, probably based on level of effort or cost/benefit.

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I'm sure there is a thread about making unpopular breeds more popular if someone was inclined to hunt for it. xP And the things that would mostly be in that type of thread, BSAs have their own section and sprite updates are usually worked on in secret. Silver was the exception there, and even then the female that was used wasn't worked publicly. Unless you have ideas of other things that might perk up less popular breeds, I'm not sure a thread would really do much.

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I agree there is a problem, but I don't think this will fix it.

 

The problem is the ratios themselves. The more the site grows, the more the ratios are going to be out of whack. Until TJ gets rid of the ratios and comes up with some other way to drop eggs, this problem will persist AND get worse. As I see it, eggs should be dropped by rarity alone and not by their population.

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This isn't intended to address the ratios, although my fix to prevent it from making them worse might help fix them a bit. The point of this is that, say the coast can sit forever with two blues and a waterhorse, and the person who wants a waverunner is stuck even though it's just as common as the two breeds sitting there. That isn't a ratios problem, it's a problem with the fact that you can only see 3 eggs at once, and if the 3 eggs all happen to be ones nobody looking that moment want it isn't going to move and reveal the eggs that are wanted. And remember, half an hour later when those two blues have finally been picked up someone hunting blues is going to go to the coast and find three waverunners. There are some breeds that are truly less popular than others, but to a large extent the problem is finding the common that you want rather than the commons that the cave puts in front of you, spread across the entire userbase where each user wants different commons.

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I'm sure there is a thread about making unpopular breeds more popular if someone was inclined to hunt for it. xP  And the things that would mostly be in that type of thread, BSAs have their own section and sprite updates are usually worked on in secret.  Silver was the exception there, and even then the female that was used wasn't worked publicly.  Unless you have ideas of other things that might perk up less popular breeds, I'm not sure a thread would really do much.

Actually, there are several threads around with suggestions of how to fix the biome blocking problem, but I didn't find a "make unpopular breeds more popular" thread on the pages 3 to 30. (Just in case someone else picks up the challenge.)

 

But, to give a short recap of what I remember/found while searching the suggestions forums about how to get the biomes to move:

  • Regular egg shuffle for every refresh. (Usually shot down in an instant because it didn't work when TJ tried it many years ago.)
  • This suggestion right here, to shuffle only eggs of about the same rarity / only common eggs
  • Change the ways ratios work / do away with ratios
  • Making commons more interesting through various means:
    • Punting blockers to the AP at every 5-minute-shuffle / every hour
    • creating alts / color morphs
    • adding hybrids for blockers
    • giving blockers a BSA
    • mossy eggs (don't remember what they did, to be honest)
    • store (where you get "points" or "money" for raising blockers)
    • forum actions (raise commons for special dragons)
    • Ascension (especially interesting for blockers!)
Edited by olympe

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Oh, I like. As noted by PF13 there have been plenty of times I've gone looking for a specific common I KNOW is in that biome all the time, but can't find one through tons of other unmoving blockers. So this plus auto kicking eggs that sit too long should work nicely.

 

As far as the rest of the discussion goes, I don't think how sprites look has much to do with how wanted commons are. A quick glance at the biomes just now shows magelight, ember, and sunsong dragons sitting, and those are all good looking breeds by most people's standards. I mean, yes, really ugly breeds (cough brimstones cough) might be less valued, but I think the bigger issues are:

 

1) Making lineages with commons is really aggravating due to stupid ratios. I can make uncommon x uncommon lines more quickly than I can common x common. I have been trying for MONTHS to get royal crimsons from a bunch of spirit wards, and despite trying about ten pairs a week, have only one crimson so far. That's messed up, considering royal crimsons are pretty much rabbit breeders with everything else. When you have the ratios making breeding between two commons feel as hard as breeding for metallics, with much less reward when you succeed, it hardly encourages one to try. And aside from bad lineage prospects...

 

2) there's little incentive to collect commons. Unless someone is a hoarder, most people quickly tire of collecting commons, since they're so easy to get and so useless in trade. One great example is pillows. They are some of my favorite sprites in the cave, and very common--so common, in fact, that collecting them is no longer really interesting or worth my time. For those who play Pokemon, it's like collecting a hundred zigzagoons and instantly stuffing them all in a PC box. I love zigzagoons, think they are one of the cutest Pokemon, but they're so easy and unrewarding to get that just having a box full of them to look at gets old fast. On DC this problem is worsened all the more by just how many commons there are for very few rares. I think one way the problem could be alleviated, however, is if there were in game rewards for raising things classed as common, such as 500 commons for a CB Silver or 1000 for a CB Gold. Such high numbers would both represent a challenge and keep rares from appearing in over abundance and wrecking the ratios. As far as what's considered "common," it could simply be whatever's in the highest 25% of breeds produced by the cave at the exact time the egg is created.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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I like this. It won't solve all the problems we have with ratios, of course, and that *does* need to be addressed *someday*, but this will definitely help with commons, I think. I don't much hunt in the biomes because it's always the same three eggs sitting there. I can refresh 10 times and it's still those same three eggs. If commons shuffled, at least I could grab *something* I like. And I do like some commons, I really do.

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Basically if a super common dragon is in slot 3, slot 3 shuffles between the most common dragons of that biome, with a new common appearing in that slot on each refresh. It continues to do so until someone takes it, when the next egg appears as usual. If the next egg is uncommon or rare it acts like things currently do, where it sits until taken. If the next egg is common it starts shuffling again. TJ decides how common a breed has to be to shuffle.

 

This certainly helps alleviate the problem we had with the egg shuffle in the past (and why it was un-implemented), but I'm not sure how feasible it is. If it's feasible, I have no qualms about supporting it.

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This certainly helps alleviate the problem we had with the egg shuffle in the past (and why it was un-implemented), but I'm not sure how feasible it is. If it's feasible, I have no qualms about supporting it.

^Pretty much my thoughts.

 

 

A way to get more of the eggs out to people that want them needs to be implemented. Shuffling (whether all or just the super commons) is one way.

Other possibilities might be adding more egg slots to the biomes. (like during the Black Marrow release, when the Cave had 6 slots instead of three) or randomizing what users see in the biomes: everyone sees a random set of three eggs instead of the same ones. So I might have (to use the above example, the two blues and a waterhorse but someone else at the same time is seeing waterwalkers)

 

 

But how feasible any one suggestion is, I don't know, but I support doing whatever we can find to fix it. The more breeds released, the worse it will get, and I definitely want more breeds in the cave.

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Plain shuffling has problems that I outlined in the first paragraph in my first post. Basically it would result in all the nice things being plucked out of the drop in a giant scrum the first few minutes after the hour, leaving nothing much other than blockers for the rest of the drop. In the original shuffle thread they even had another collectibles site that did their drops that way to use as an example. Most people who used that site did not recommend a plain shuffle, as it caused the scrum followed by a dearth of nice eggs I described.

 

I suspect showing each person a different 3 eggs would result in a similar problem, just slower. It would also cause problems if the 3 eggs all happened to be blockers you didn't want (high probability, especially after a bunch of people visit the biomes). Because you see different eggs than other people the biomes would actually move slower than now, as it would require someone who sees one of the eggs you see to take it, rather than just any egg taken moving the biome along for everyone.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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Shuffle only the most common.  Basically if a super common dragon is in slot 3, slot 3 shuffles between the most common dragons of that biome, with a new common appearing in that slot on each refresh.  It continues to do so until someone takes it, when the next egg appears as usual.  If the next egg is uncommon or rare it acts like things currently do, where it sits until taken.  If the next egg is common it starts shuffling again.  TJ decides how common a breed has to be to shuffle.

I'd like this very much smile.gif Right now I'm trying to stock up on night glories, and it's much harder than I thought. And I can't even simply dedicate more time to it (like it works with most commons), since most of the time I'm online they will be day glories because of my time zone tongue.gif

Edited by Ha-Ki

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As it stands, sometimes it can be really hard to find commons. I think the biomes are overrun by so many breeds, some biomes more than others, that the current system is not going to sustain very long. I remember I had pick 5 CB common eggs of same breed for a trade and it took me whole day. Sometimes it's same story with rares too. Many times a particular biome doesn't show anything but commons drop after drop for a long time. I am not exactly sure this suggestion can fix the issue as a whole, but I'm in favour of anything that improves the hunting experience right now since it's pretty frustrating.

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