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Any new sprite updates have a poll

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I know I'm not alone in being somewhat less than pleased with the new updated Silvers. Several people stated not even KNOWING that the Silvers were being updated.

 

For the next updated sprite, how about having a PUBLIC thread on Site Discussion for all to see and vote on or discuss so there aren't so many badly surprised people.

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I know I'm not alone in being somewhat less than pleased with the new updated Silvers. Several people stated not even KNOWING that the Silvers were being updated.

 

For the next updated sprite, how about having a PUBLIC thread on Site Discussion for all to see and vote on or discuss so there aren't so many badly surprised people.

Not really meaningful. A lot of people do not use the forum.

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How useful would something like this actually be?

 

People may come to a general consensus that a sprite needs to be changed, but you can bet they won't agree on how it ought to be changed, and at the end of the process you still end up with roughly the same number of people who are displeased - or more, maybe, because the sprite wasn't what people had in mind or whatever. How do you deal with narrow majorities? What do you do when people vote not to change a sprite that desperately needs it because that sprite happens to have some weird sentimental value?

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I don't really know what can actually be done about people (who use the forums already) not knowing about the silvers being updated. We were warned twice two months ago in news updates, and how are people supposed to find out site news if not from those? They post on the main page of the site itself as well, so I don't know if I believe that people who don't read news posts are necessarily going to put forth the effort to take/read a poll.

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How useful would something like this actually be?

 

People may come to a general consensus that a sprite needs to be changed, but you can bet they won't agree on how it ought to be changed, and at the end of the process you still end up with roughly the same number of people who are displeased - or more, maybe, because the sprite wasn't what people had in mind or whatever. How do you deal with narrow majorities? What do you do when people vote not to change a sprite that desperately needs it because that sprite happens to have some weird sentimental value?

Basically, the outcome wouldn't be any different from what happened this time.

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Not everyone who sees the poll (and/or discussion) will respond, though, and that's true for both on-site and forum polls.

 

Polls also kind of disregard people who don't like any of the options - they either have to do nothing, pick the least objectionable choice (not necessarily reflective of they truly feel, so not a great indicator of anything), or suggest their own option in a discussion thread (which means a lot of sifting through the thread to actually find all the suggested options, not to mention counting how many supportive posts those options received; alternatively, the poll would have to be restarted every time a new option is introduced).

 

I don't see how doing this would make outcomes any different in the future.

Edited by Infinis

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How useful would something like this actually be?

 

People may come to a general consensus that a sprite needs to be changed, but you can bet they won't agree on how it ought to be changed, and at the end of the process you still end up with roughly the same number of people who are displeased - or more, maybe, because the sprite wasn't what people had in mind or whatever. How do you deal with narrow majorities? What do you do when people vote not to change a sprite that desperately needs it because that sprite happens to have some weird sentimental value?

Well, if people are going to be displeased either way, at least the majority would be happy. Narrow majorities could be decided between by TJ. And if a sprite is so beloved by the community that the major opinion is it doesn't need to be changed, then I'd say the sprite doesn't actually desperately need to be changed. None of the current artwork on DC really NEEDS to be changed, after all, so in the end change always comes down to what users want most... or should, anyway.

 

Personally I think it'd be useful because, well, Odeen, you saw it yourself: updates on DC don't always go up in flames. It depends on the update. Your splits had a few minor grumbles, but the majority of people, myself included, really liked them. Similarly, I don't remember there being too much upset about the hollies. But things like the silvers and nilias generated a lot more upset in part because they felt more drastic (super obviously so with the nilias). So, assuming there were multiple updates to choose from, or even simply a choice between update and no update, I think polls could lead to the option that would generate the least outcry--and make users feel like they're more informed, and have more of a voice, about changes that'll affect things they've already collected.

 

 

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Not everyone who sees the poll (and/or discussion) will respond, though, and that's true for both on-site and forum polls.

 

Polls also kind of disregard people who don't like any of the options - they either have to do nothing, pick the least objectionable choice (not necessarily reflective of they truly feel, so not a great indicator of anything), or suggest their own option in a discussion thread (which means a lot of sifting through the thread to actually find all the suggested options, not to mention counting how many supportive posts those options received; alternatively, the poll would have to be restarted every time a new option is introduced).

 

I don't see how doing this would make outcomes any different in the future.

There could be a neutral option for neutral people.

 

In terms of how many options there are, perhaps it could be a two step process; a link to a forum talking about a possible update, and then, once TJ feels there's enough candidates of cave quality, the forum is closed, things go to poll (with the original, neutral, and TJ-chosen options), and that's that.

 

 

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I know I'm not alone in being  somewhat less than pleased with the new updated Silvers. Several people stated not even KNOWING that the Silvers were being updated.

 

For the next updated sprite, how about having a PUBLIC thread on Site Discussion for all to see and vote on or discuss so there aren't so many badly surprised people.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by not being warned... There were three different threads that said that there were updates coming. Two of them even said that the updates were specifically for the Silver Dragons.

 

Question: What do you mean by a "PUBLIC thread?" Do you mean a thread where people can discuss what the sprites should look like? If that's what you mean then I don't think you've ever been someone trying to please ten other people in a dragon request thread. Can you imagine what it'd be like if something as big as an update to one of the oldest dragons on the site were opened to the public? Sometimes it's better to give people something without warning. Otherwise they get picky. When people get picky everything slows down. Then what happens? Not the sprite update, that's what.

 

A note from me: I'm sorry if I came off as a little bit harsh but you came off as a little bit harsh too; so I thought I'd combat harsh with harsh. I hope I've helped you to understand why what you're suggesting probably wouldn't work. But, if you think the ideas that people are supplying are really great; I'd suggest moving this to the requests part of the forums so that this might actually be added as part of the process. -Vrack

 

EDIT: I also just found this thread. (Yes, it is two years old.) But it still shows that there was in fact a public thread where people could help in the decision of the new sprites.

Edited by Vrack

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Then what happens? Not the sprite update, that's what.

Ironic, isn't it? Since that seems to be the objective of a few.

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Personally I think it'd be useful because, well, Odeen, you saw it yourself: updates on DC don't always go up in flames. It depends on the update. Your splits had a few minor grumbles, but the majority of people, myself included, really liked them. Similarly, I don't remember there being too much upset about the hollies. But things like the silvers and nilias generated a lot more upset in part because they felt more drastic (super obviously so with the nilias). So, assuming there were multiple updates to choose from, or even simply a choice between update and no update, I think polls could lead to the option that would generate the least outcry--and make users feel like they're more informed, and have more of a voice, about changes that'll affect things they've already collected.

The Split case is not a particularly good justification for this proposition. It most certainly is proof that updates can be done to the satisfaction of an overwhelming majority, but the Splits were not decided on by player vote. They were chosen to be updated on account of being very worn out sprites, which is one of the main reasons updates happen in the first place. Silvers, too, were showing their age.

 

I suspect the Splits were so well received for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that it's not a popular breed to work with and the number of people affected by the change is going to be smaller as a result (but, granted, Nilias are nowhere near the realm of silvers in popularity and as you say their update was received poorly). I also took obsessive care to preserve the lineage tile view despite how drastically I was changing everything else, meaning that pose, silhouette, and the base color palette changed so little as to be inconsequential. That was possible in part because the original pose was more or less workable as-is; the silver, by contrast, was plagued with anatomical and shading faults like broken backs, necks, and feet and a general lack of contrast that would need to be fixed and would ultimately cause the sprite silhouette and color cast to change.

 

On the flipside, I updated the GON in a similar way to how I updated the Splits and it received a pretty mixed response, though generally positive.

 

The Splits were not minor updates like the female horse, either. I threw the entire sprite set away and went back to the original sketch, redrew it, and then sprited off of my redrawn sketch. With all of the updates that have been pushed through recently (with the exception of dimoprhism being added), I would say that the Splits were the most intense overhaul of any of them.

 

IN CONCLUSION

If I had to guess at a root cause, I would say that the secret to success in updating sprites lies in subtlety. The Hollies went over well because very little was done to a sprite that was already there; the Splits went over well because a metric ton was done, but in a way that looks like not much was done. At the end of it, I don't think any of this could ever be sussed out via a user poll and I don't think there's a comfy formula to it either. Stuff will be updated in the future. People will be mad about it and people will appreciate it. Life will go on. All polling the userbase would do is slow things down and muddy the waters for little to no actual change in outcomes.

 

 

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I'm not quite sure what you mean by not being warned... There were three different threads that said that there were updates coming. Two of them even said that the updates were specifically for the Silver Dragons.

/snip

EDIT: I also just found this thread. (Yes, it is two years old.) But it still shows that there was in fact a public thread where people could help in the decision of the new sprites.

 

Look at the number of sprite updates relative to the number of releases. We have on the order of 150 breeds, and there have been on the order of five big sprite replacements (probably a few more, but it doesn't change the numbers that much). That means the naive estimate is that 3% of breeds get replaced.

 

That said, that's assuming an even distribution of replacements, which is patently false. In fact, most (almost all) of the replaced sprites are from way back in 2008—the original sprites from the big replacement project that happened. Those sprites were created to a much more limited set of criteria (strict color limit, smaller size expectations) that they simply can't compete with sprites created even a few years later.

 

Which means that any "newer" breed—or really, any of them released in the past four or five years, which can hardly be considered "new"—is extremely unlikely to be changed, just by raw statistics. And they're not just empty numbers; there's simply no real reason to consider drastic updates to the newer sprites.

 

People were warned, as Vrack demonstrated. Not only... Reading TJ's posts, I'm guessing that , in general, "newer" sprites will not be updated any time soon but older could. Isn't that warning enough?

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Given that i saw, I think, 4 different sprites that were preferred, someone was going to be unhappy, no matter what. I don't really think a poll would help much there I do think that the minimum amount necessary is preferable. Actually< i see nothing wrong with leaving the old sprites alone. Vintage is not such a bad thing, IMHO

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Given that i saw, I think, 4 different sprites that were preferred, someone was going to be unhappy, no matter what. I don't really think a poll would help much there  I do think that the minimum amount necessary is preferable.
Considering this poll, I would say that the majority did not agree.

Long story short, polls will not help.

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I do not understand, only 36% people who voted liked the new version. And we have the new version.

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Considering this poll, I would say that the majority did not agree.

Long story short, polls will not help.

Did I not say polls wouldn't help? The rest is my opinion, of course

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I think a lot of players have come to feel very entitled. *Scratches head*

 

Unless they are the original spriter speaking out, I say, go with the flow people. Everyone has their aesthetics based on culture, genetics, experiences and what-not. Not everyone is going to be happy, but that is why some people prefer certain dragons in the cave over others. So now a dragon has a revamp on the design and you don't find it pretty anymore? Well, find a new dragon to admire.

 

I mean, unless you can offer a glitzy, beautiful remake that keeps all the things you like about the original sprite that you can offer up that EVERYONE adores... just appreciate the fact that the people involved in these new sprites likely put a lot of time, effort and good intentions into it - and they aren't even getting paid for all this work.

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Well, find a new dragon to admire.

Yes, I guess that is most people would do, after all little can be changed. But apparently less people would work on silver lineages now, and I do not think that is the purpose of update.

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Yes, I guess that is most people would do, after all little can be changed. But apparently less people would work on silver lineages now, and I do not think that is the purpose of update.

I've no idea if less people will work on silver lineages but I assume TJ could easily find out in the next months. Personally, I've intention to collect Silvers, something I refused to do until now because I disliked the old sprites. It is all a matter of opinions, isn't it?

 

Edit:

Let's assume that Reds will be updated next and that a poll is started asking if they should. We will have a bunch of people saying "yes, it needs to be update" and another bunch of people saying "no". Let's assume that the "yes" is the majority. Will that avoid any drama the day the new Reds are released?

Now, let's assume that the poll is about the new sprite candidates. Will the release of the sprite that gets more votes avoid any drama? In both case, the poll "losers" will state that the poll was not really valid because etc. etc.

Edited by NotBambi

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No matter what - there will always be people unhappy with whatever the final result is.

 

In my opinion - while a poll would be helpful to find out what people like in a Sprite (ex. finding out if people prefer the current pose of a sprite or want a new post)...It should NOT be those polls alone that determines which sprite is chosen.

 

For example:

 

Which of these should be the sprite for the new Black Pygmy* dragon:

 

user posted image 37%

user posted image 25%

Use both and have dimorphism 30%

I don't care 8%

 

You can see - people favor image one over other options. So that 25% that voted for option two will be unhappy, and those that voted for both to be used only get half the deal (so some of them might be unhappy as well). In the end - though the players chose...it could still lead to the majority being unhappy.

 

Overall - while they might be helpful to some extent, I feel in the end they would just be taking up space and wouldn't serve much of a purpose (I think Odeen summed it up the best to be honest)

 

*Fully aware these are just Black Hatchling sprites - just used them as a visual for this example

 

 

 

 

 

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Well, I think to what extent poll could help relies heavily on how it is designed... there are a lot of tricks and people need first to agree on what kind of poll and what kind of results (say, >50% acceptance) are valid. A Lot of work biggrin.gif

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I do not think its necessary at all to put sprites being updated out to feed the wolves. The ones that were worked on in public are exactly why that doesnt work.

 

I think if a dragon owner decides they want to update, then it should be completely up to them if they want to put the DR section to be worked on, or they do it in private (or wherever they work on things with whoever they work with). I do not find it necessary at all for an artist to get permission essentially, to update their own art. I do think that its a great idea for the art to be looked at by all of the staff/artists, to find issues before they are released, but that doesnt always happen. (Wording there is because there are times when updates and/or new art suggestions are going to happen privately, and only be seen by tj and whoever the image may have been shared with. Holiday concepts for example that end up needing tweaks after being released..)

 

 

I do understand wanting to be able to have a say in what happens. There are a few breeds that would really upset me if they were changed without even a chance to weigh in. If that day comes, I know i will have to face the choice of how to react, how its going to affect me, and whether it affects me enough to actually walk away from the game (or ignore large chunks of my history on my scroll like I do with a lot of my old lineages...). There are some breeds I would LOVE see get an update, for various reasons, but mostly to see if the changes i hope to see would make me like them tongue.gif

 

 

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I think a lot of players have come to feel very entitled. *Scratches head*

 

Unless they are the original spriter speaking out, I say, go with the flow people. Everyone has their aesthetics based on culture, genetics, experiences and what-not. Not everyone is going to be happy, but that is why some people prefer certain dragons in the cave over others. So now a dragon has a revamp on the design and you don't find it pretty anymore? Well, find a new dragon to admire.

 

I mean, unless you can offer a glitzy, beautiful remake that keeps all the things you like about the original sprite that you can offer up that EVERYONE adores... just appreciate the fact that the people involved in these new sprites likely put a lot of time, effort and good intentions into it - and they aren't even getting paid for all this work.

I don't think being disappointed about changes to dragons I love and have collected for eight years is me being "entitled." I have literally dozens of silvers and a bit over a dozen ongoing silver lineages that now look disappointing or downright ugly to my eyes. The spriter might have put a lot of time into the new sprite, but I have been collecting silvers for eight years and put in many hours collecting, breeding, and trading for dragons I'm no longer very fond of. Back when sprite updates were first announced someone put it like this: imagine you have an artist friend who makes a beautiful blanket for you. You love the blanket, even though as years go on it becomes a bit worn and faded. Now, imagine said friend notices the blanket is wearing out and fixes it--but, deciding they now have a better vision for the blanket then before, they add in a bunch of new colors which you don't think look half as nice. Did that person put in a lot of work and love? Yah, but they still changed something you loved into something you didn't love, without asking first, and it stinks. In DC it's even worse because instead of simply passively using a blanket many of us have spent time trading and hunting for hours to collect these dragons and build lineages with them. Yes, it might be "just a sprite change," but when all of DC revolves around collecting dragons you like, and then one day the dragons you collected so much of because you liked them suddenly become something you dislike, well, it sucks. It feels like a lot of what I put into playing the game has just been undone. :/

 

Also the point you make about different aesthetics is kind of self defeating. Precisely because people DO have different tastes is why things shouldn't be changed much after they're released, because the people who like them have already collected them while those who don't didn't. Why can't people keep the dragons they collected and like even if their taste in art is different from others? Why do people have to have things changed on them and then be told to just shut up if they're unhappy that the art they loved is now gone? Why can't we just get new breeds instead of updates to what already has been collected?

 

There are some sprite updates I liked to be fair, but there've also been some really upsetting ones, and I'm agreeing more and more with the "don't change things once they've been released to the user base" mentality >___<

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