2015-12-03 - Sprite Update (Round Two)

[JavaTigress]

But why must the minimalist fancier always take a backseat to those who want everything updated, polished, streamline, modernized, ... and frankly, in my opinion, boring? One of the reasons I've enjoyed DC for the last seven years is because there was a wide variety of styles when it came to art work. There was something for everyone. With TJ's announcement (read that as threat to me) of more updates in the future, all the uniqueness vanishes. DC ends up the same as every other collecting game — games many of us don't play because they lack individuality.

 

Updates change the spirit of the original artwork. While they are prettier, it seems that they end up stripped of what made them special in the first place. They lose their "soul", as it were.

 

I understand the desire to improve your work as your skills increase, but feel that is better shown through the addition of new work instead of reworking the old. I'm no artist, but I am a writer. Once I have given a story to the public, I would never dream of taking it away from them so I can improve it. I have, and likely will always re-read my work and see things wrong with it that I would love to correct or simply say in another "better" way. Instead, I write a new story for my readers to enjoy while fulfilling my need to continually improve my skills.

 

Personal opinion, just being thrown out there as a reason for my dislike of updates.

 

Edit: *raises hand* I'm extremely opposed to updates to the few old commons who still remain. I could care less about rarity since I'm not into trading and only have the few I have for gifting purposes.  *Validating tjekan's statement*

I can't speak for why, other than perhaps the minimalist fanciers are the minority.

 

The problem I have with this is that your question could JUST as easily be asked the other way around. WHY should those that find that minimalist look flat, drab, dull and boring be stuck with it to please those that DO like it? The thing to remember is that that goes both ways. i am not saying this to downplay or belittle yoru opinion, which you have every right to hold. I am just saying that NOT everyone HAS the same opinions, and the BEST TJ can do is go with the majority.... someone is ALWAYS going to be unhappy whatever happens. ESPECIALLY as it happens that I thought in some cases the SPRITERS themselves were the ones pushing for updates.

 

As you say, there are a variety of dragons on DC, thankfully. SO no one is REALLY forced to collect anything they don' like.

 

I think the thing is that not all the artists see it as you do.

 

I can't speak for them, not being a spriter myself, but from my perspective the silvers didn't 'lose their soul'.

 

I would venture to say that plenty of others feel the same about it as I do.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Silverswift

[blockEdragon]

OK i NEED to start a male silver X silver lunar checker they look AMAZING together now

[SharonLilly]

No, they are not. If we are going to invoke our experiences: I easily caught several Almandines, offered them on trades of Alt-vines or Alt-undines and they got declined. I ended gifting them. So now I'm not even making the effort to catch them. And if you do not believe me, I can ask the giftees to PM you.

Not sure I can agree to this statement. When I had put up a 2nd-gen shimmer up for trading, I received a surprising number of offers of CB golds and silvers, many of them containing two or more. Relative to that, there were much less offers of almandines, and when I did get any it was just one.

And over the past month or so, while I did some CB hunting at the alpine, I at least saw a few golds, some more silvers, but I didn't find a single almandine.

I guess it could be a coincidence, or I could be completely wrong and was just hunting or offering trades at the wrong times. Just saying that I don't feel like cb almandines are so much less rare than silvers and golds.

Edited December 6, 2015 by SharonLilly

[NotBambi]

When? Almandines used to be catchable for a while after release, but have since gone almost non-existent. Also, pyropes and almandines look strikingly similar as both eggs and hatchies, so it's possible the players didn't realize they weren't pyropes, or naively assumed almandines weren't worth as much as they are. Because I agree 100% with Tjekan, I have seen CB Almandines trading for crazy high prices of late on the rare occassions they're offered.

When? Between one month and two ago.

/Bambi puts on her hunter outfit and heads to the Alpine before getting a warning from the mods for "off-toping" (while adding a note to her to-do list about contacting SharonLilly and tjekan)

Edited December 6, 2015 by NotBambi

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The problem I have with this is that your question could JUST as easily be asked the other way around. WHY should those that find that minimalist look flat, drab, dull and boring be stuck with it to please those that DO like it? The thing to remember is that that goes both ways.

 

As you say, there are a variety of dragons on DC, thankfully. SO no one is REALLY forced to collect anything they don' like.

Well, Silverswift...

 

People who don't like it aren't stuck with it. As you say, there's a lot of different dragons on DC to collect. If people don't want to collect a sprite because they find it "flat, drab, dull and boring," they don't have to.

 

But doesn't it seem rather unfair to then take something that people DID collect because they liked it, and then drastically change it, even knowing that some people will then find something they like replaced with something they don't like?

 

Silver lunar heralds are super shiny. However, even after they were released, I chose to keep working on lineages with silvers instead of lineages with them, because I preferred how the silvers looked to how they looked, even if many would disagree. I wasn't forced to collect anything I didn't like. But now that the silvers have become drastically shiny, many of the things I DID like have now been forcefully turned into things I DON'T like, or at least like notably less.

 

Again, it's not that I dislike the new sprites, even though they aren't my favorite, so much as I preferred much more the things I had already built / collected. The silver update was a lot more radical a change in terms of style, color, and shading then the hollies / splits were, and the resulting dragons now look more like a sister breed to the original silvers than a mere touch up of them.

Edited December 6, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Sinion Kabe]

EDIT: I agree on the lineages Sinion Kabe. Look at this! So pretty.

Very pretty indeed, OceanSecrets. A perfect example

 

Huge props to the Spriter!

[JavaTigress]

Well, Silverswift...

 

People who don't like it aren't stuck with it. As you say, there's a lot of different dragons on DC to collect. If people don't want to collect a sprite because they find it "flat, drab, dull and boring," they don't have to.

 

But doesn't it seem rather unfair to then take something that people DID collect because they liked it, and then drastically change it, even knowing that some people will then find something they like replaced with something they don't like?

 

Silver lunar heralds are super shiny. However, even after they were released, I chose to keep working on lineages with silvers instead of lineages with them, because I preferred how the silvers looked to how they looked, even if many would disagree. I wasn't forced to collect anything I didn't like. But now that the silvers have become drastically shiny, many of the things I DID like have now been forcefully turned into things I DON'T like, or at least like notably less.

 

Again, it's not that I dislike the new sprites, even though they aren't my favorite, so much as I preferred much more the things I had already built / collected. The silver update was a lot more radical a change in terms of style, color, and shading then the hollies / splits were, and the resulting dragons now look more like a sister breed to the original silvers than a mere touch up of them.

I think the fact that the Silvers ARE a rare, and therefor sort of a flagship sprite for the sprite had to do with that.

 

Let's face it, do we really, REALLY want an outdated sprite as the face of the site?

 

Something to think about.

 

( MIND I never THOUGHT the silvers were terrible ( Have quite a few myself))

 

In ALL fairness, I thought it looked to me like a great deal of effort went into TRYING to keep the look of the old sprites to some extent ( Mind you, I get if some feel they didn't entirely succeed there).

 

In the end, of course, it wasn't my call.

 

I intend no disrespect to you or anyone else that disagrees with me on this.

I DO feel for those that don't liek the changes to some extent...

 

I wish that their could have been a better way of handling this BUT... other than leaving the old sprites absolutely alone, I am unsure what could have been done with them that wouldn[t have created worse drama.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Silverswift

[Zovesta]

The problem I have with this is that your question could JUST as easily be asked the other way around. WHY should those that find that minimalist look flat, drab, dull and boring be stuck with it to please those that DO like it? The thing to remember is that that goes both ways. i am not saying this to downplay or belittle yoru opinion, which you have every right to hold. I am just saying that NOT everyone HAS the same opinions, and the BEST TJ can do is go with the majority.... someone is ALWAYS going to be unhappy whatever happens. ESPECIALLY as it happens that I thought in some cases the SPRITERS themselves were the ones pushing for updates.

Well, not really. There are a handful of old "minimalist" sprites as opposed to gobs and gobs of new shiny ones, and even more that are waiting to be released, since they don't really make "minimalist" sprites anymore.

 

It's like this: say for awhile, tan nail polish is the standard. A lot of people love tan nail polish, they grow up with it, it's their first experience with nail polish. After awhile, tan isn't so popular, and say red becomes the new, exciting colour. Everyone loves red because it is bold and enticing, and becomes the overwhelming majority's favourite colour, even if they happen to have some tan polishes in their stash. While no new tan nail polishes are being made, the people who have them still wear them and cherish them; they might wear red once in awhile, but overall, they still love their tan. Then, one day, a certain line of old tan polish turns red (magically, I guess), with the promise that tan will soon become almost entirely replaced. People who still love tan polish are repeatedly told they are just the minority and to just suck it up.

 

 

Of course, it IS just nail polish. We could stop painting our nails altogether, but it's something we like doing that brings us joy.

 

See my point?

[Stormbreeze]

I love the new look of the silvers! I always liked their design, but I wondered where that "magical aura" was – it seems like the artist really incorporated it into their new metallic shading.

[JavaTigress]

Well, not really. There are a handful of old "minimalist" sprites as opposed to gobs and gobs of new shiny ones, and even more that are waiting to be released, since they don't really make "minimalist" sprites anymore.

 

It's like this: say for awhile, tan nail polish is the standard. A lot of people love tan nail polish, they grow up with it, it's their first experience with nail polish. After awhile, tan isn't so popular, and say red becomes the new, exciting colour. Everyone loves red because it is bold and enticing, and becomes the overwhelming majority's favourite colour, even if they happen to have some tan polishes in their stash. While no new tan nail polishes are being made, the people who have them still wear them and cherish them; they might wear red once in awhile, but overall, they still love their tan. Then, one day, a certain line of old tan polish turns red (magically, I guess), with the promise that tan will soon become almost entirely replaced. People who still love tan polish are repeatedly told they are just the minority and to just suck it up.

 

 

Of course, it IS just nail polish. We could stop painting our nails altogether, but it's something we like doing that brings us joy.

 

See my point?

I DO see your point.

 

That sort of thing happens often enough and it IS unfortunate.

 

The trouble is what is the alternative?

So just what would you suggest?

 

Leave all sprites alone, regardless of how old and dated they look? REGARDLESS of what the spriters may want? regardless of what he majority want?

Edited December 6, 2015 by Silverswift

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think the fact that the Silvers ARE a rare, and therefor sort of a flagship sprite for the sprite had to do with that.

 

Let's face it, do we really, REALLY want an outdated sprite as the face of the site?

 

Something to think about.

 

( MIND I never THOUGHT the silvers were terrible ( Have quite a few myself))

 

In ALL fairness, I thought it looked to me like a great deal of effort went into TRYING to keep the look of the old sprites to some extent ( Mind you, I get if some feel they didn't entirely succeed there).

 

In the end, of course, it wasn't my call.

Oh, no, I agree. I was actually looking forward to the silver updates initially because, as you say, I felt one of the cave's rarest normally obtainable dragons should be superb looking, a true reward for the challenge and something more than disappointment to newer players.

 

Instead, my disappointment lies in the nature of the change. Hollies and splits kept the original look, color, silhouette and style of their predecessors far better than I think the silvers did. The colors changed radically, the facial and body style changed a bit, the manes look totally different now, the outlines are far softer or in some spots don't exist, so on and so forth. I can look at my hollies and splits and still feel they're what I collected originally, both normally and in lineages. I look at these new silvers in both places and instead wonder who swapped out my dragons with someone else's while I was sleeping. I mean... I get that the gleam on them had to be touched up a bit, but I still think the changes could've been much less drastic than they were. A shiny, slightly less white silver would've worked just as well, as would trying to preserve more of the original head tilt for the male and mane style for them both.

 

Again, they aren't BAD sprites, and I agree that there will be many beautiful lineages built with them (I didn't care too deeply for silver x moonstone before, but I agree it looks gorgeous now), but they are still very DIFFERENT from what was before, and I very much liked what I had before. I planned dozens of lineages around the bolder outlines and less bright whitish color of the original silvers that just don't look the way I want them to now, much to my disappointment.

[NotBambi]

Let's face it, do we really, REALLY want an outdated sprite as the face of the site?

Thank you. Exactly my point.

[schenanigans]

The problem that people need to realize is that everyone cannot be pleased.

 

It is unfortunate, it sucks, it makes people unhappy.

 

However, when looking at it in terms of health for the site, and catching the attention and KEEPING that attention of new players all players, really, if TJ deems it necessary or in favor to update a sprite... He's going to do what needs to be done.

 

I'm not saying it's great, or that I believe that it should be done, mind you. I'm not saying I agree with it. I really don't want Reds to be updated. But if that happens, I need to adjust as I see fit.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Areous

[JavaTigress]

The problem that people need to realize is that everyone cannot be pleased.

 

It is unfortunate, it sucks, it makes people unhappy.

 

However, when looking at it in terms of health for the site, and catching the attention and KEEPING that attention of new players, if TJ deems it necessary or in favor to update a sprite... He's going to do what needs to be done.

 

I'm not saying it's great, or that I believe that it should be done, mind you. I'm not saying I agree with it. I really don't want Reds to be updated. But if that happens, I need to adjust as I see fit.

I think Aerous stated whgat I was trying to and maybe failing.

[Twilight Dream]

One day later and I still hate all my Silvers, especially when I look at the lineages I once adored. Silvers were the only thing I reliably bred on DC. Now I will only breed them to trade.

 

[Zovesta]

I DO see your point.

 

That sort of thing happens often enough and it IS unfortunate.

 

The trouble is what is the alternative?

So just what would you suggest?

 

Leave all sprites alone, regardless of how old and dated they look? REGARDLESS of what the spriters may want? regardless of what he majority want?

Honestly, yeah, that is what I'd do, but frankly, there isn't an alternative. I'm just saying that you really can't expect people not to complain and be upset. =P

[JavaTigress]

Honestly, yeah, that is what I'd do, but frankly, there isn't an alternative. I'm just saying that you really can't expect people not to complain and be upset. =P

I think the consensus isn't that people aren't expected to complain.

 

I think the consensus is that some people will complain, no matter what.

[sene]

Let's face it, do we really, REALLY want an outdated sprite as the face of the site?

Whether the old silvers are outdated and qualified as the face of the site is one question. A more important question is that is the new silver a good flagship of the site? Apparently many people do not think so, especially the lineage view. If we consider silver as a flagship dragon, should it be good as itself and also look good with others? Or are we asking too much? Maybe....

[JavaTigress]

Whether the old silvers are outdated and qualified as the face of the site is one question. A more important question is that is the new silver a good flagship of the site? Apparently many people do not think so, especially the lineage view. If we consider silver as a flagship dragon, should it be good as itself and also look good with others? Or are we asking too much? Maybe....

I have to THINK that the lineage view can be adjusted somewhat.

 

TJ can edit that, can't he?

 

Perhaps a suggestion to that effect would be an answer to some of the discontent ( THOUGH I understand it won't fix it all.)

[Zovesta]

I think the consensus isn't that people aren't expected to complain.

 

I think the consensus is that some people will complain, no matter what.

That's wishful thinking! Take away something people have spent years loving and expecting them to be the quiet, dutiful, long-suffering wife of it all isn't exactly realistic. ;P

[JavaTigress]

That's wishful thinking! Take away something people have spent years loving and expecting them to be the quiet, dutiful, long-suffering wife of it all isn't exactly realistic. ;P

I think you misread my post.

 

I SAID that there WOULD be complaining... no matter WHAT happened.

 

updates, no updates. SOMEONE will complain about it.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Silverswift

[stardust13]

The forum represents users who make forum accounts, write in English, and then choose to comment. Unless TJ comes in to say otherwise, you will never convince me that the people commenting on the forum represent a majority of DC users. I believe the number of active scrolls at any given time far outpace the number of active forum users in the same period.

 

Personally, I would be happy to feel foolish if we knew for a fact the forum user/scroll user ratio. Until then, no one should be claiming a majority or minority in any forum disagreement.

 

Also, you can't have it both ways when it comes to pixel art. Either these dragons need to be realistic to anatomy that exists in the real world, or they are mere pixel art, which means fantasy, which means they don't have to be anatomically correct. I've seen people making statements on both sides of that argument.

Edited December 6, 2015 by stardust13

[Kiyoura]

Uh, an alternative to this whole sprite remaking business is to treat it like the Bright Pinks, maybe?

 

In this case, it would be leaving all the old sprites as is and retiring them and then replacing them with the new sprites?

 

I forgot the exact circumstances of why the Bright Pinks were kept instead of retired and replaced entirely by the new Pinks, however.

[Tehya Faye]

That approach would have been awful for Silvers, though. Commons I wouldn't mind having to recollect all over again, but definitely not rares. It'd be one of the few things that would actually anger me here.

 

There was a thread suggesting that, but it was shut down. Probably not gonna be happening.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Uh, an alternative to this whole sprite remaking business is to treat it like the Bright Pinks, maybe?

 

In this case, it would be leaving all the old sprites as is and retiring them and then replacing them with the new sprites?

 

I forgot the exact circumstances of why the Bright Pinks were kept instead of retired and replaced entirely by the new Pinks, however.

Heck no. Sprite retirement is one of my least favorite things about the site, even though it's happened only a couple times. Leaving me with dead fossils instead of working lineages doesn't do anything for me or for later players sad they can't truly collect everything DC has to offer. I mean, yah, I'd get to keep the old look... but I'd not be able to keep working with them, and that kills most of the point.