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TJ09

2015-10-07 - Sprite Update (round one)

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I'm not saying you don't care, or that you don't try. I'm just saying that when people look at things from different directions, there is often a disconnect.

 

And I've felt in the past, and I know others feel that way too (tjekan earlier is a case in point), that more often than not, despite the best intentions and CARING on the side of the spriters, that lineage builders often feel shafted when dimorphism or major sprite changes are added after the fact.

 

The horse dimorphism change isn't a biggie. Of all the dimorphism adds after the fact, that is the smallest one, and I think a shift in the lineage rectangle will ease most of the small problems that are cropping up. The Holly change is also having a small impact on the lineages. Other changes... are having major affects.

 

And that's what's so distressing, when spriters say: have faith, we are doing our best! You ARE trying your best, but there is still that disconnect.... And when people get upset because of destroyed lineages.... both sides hurt.

 

Cheers!

C4.

There is a clear difference, though, in a change in the original conceptor's and spriter's vision, though, when you look at the Nils. Yes, they went through a significant change, but that's because they didn't fit what they were supposed to. Things like that - that is completely different, and you need to respect the spriter's wishes on the way they want the sprites to look.

 

However, please don't assume that when we do sprite updates, not vision changes, we don't think about lineages or the way others play the game.

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Verridith is the sprite in your signature a spoiler of the incoming new silver? xd.png It's very nice

Edited by Naruhina_94

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I can personally promise that this is absolutely untrue for the vast majority of updates in the works.

*Sweats* are there quite a LOT of updates, then?

 

Granted, I'm sure polishing could make some of my favorite old sprites look even more awesome, but... I mean, the Hollies look great, but now they look so great that a lot of the old sprites I loved them with (whites, winters, old pinks) don't look so hot side by side anymore. Things change even when they're little things. So we'll see how it goes, I guess.

 

Although I do really appreciate that you guys are trying to preserve the old sprites integrity! Birdz did a great job with the Hollies with making them still Hollies, just proper anatomy and shading. At the same time I can't help but feel a little apprehensive, especially when for some reason these dragons' updates were announced and the rest are being kept quiet.

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There is a clear difference, though, in a change in the original conceptor's and spriter's vision, though, when you look at the Nils. Yes, they went through a significant change, but that's because they didn't fit what they were supposed to. Things like that - that is completely different, and you need to respect the spriter's wishes on the way they want the sprites to look.

 

However, please don't assume that when we do sprite updates, not vision changes, we don't think about lineages or the way others play the game.

But people don't build lineages on what things are supposed to look like. They work with what they have and try to make it as pleasing as possible. It is difficult to accept that we should be ok with the artist changing the look of the sprite so drastically after people have spent much time trying to make complimentary pairings with what was available to to them.

 

I miss the character of the nilia too, they no longer look like carefree little chubsters drifting merrily along without a care in the world, the way I envisioned them in their original pose.

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And in the end they're only just pixels.

Edited by Condorflight

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I just don't think enough thought is put into how sprite updates are going to affect lineage views.

This may be true for the added dimorphism on the Horse, and the changes to the Nilia to fit the spriter's original vision, but...

 

Before I actually got in cave, my biggest thing in the game was building lineages. Trust me, I don't want to see mine changed, and I'm relieved I didn't have any male Horse or Nilia lines and feel sympathetic to those who did.

 

Buuut I do have lineages that I personally bred that do involve breeds that are going to be updated. And you know what? I'm really not concerned about those. I am reasonably certain the Horse male and Nilias are going to be the most dramatic updates by lineage tile impact, the rest will be on a similar scale to the Holly in terms of impact on lineages.

 

Hope that helps some, yo. (I can't give a guarantee that all the updates will be Holly-scale, but I know there's a lot more thought going into lineage tile effects now.)

Edited by TheCompleteAnimorph

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But people don't build lineages on what things are supposed to look like. They work with what they have and try to make it as pleasing as possible. It is difficult to accept that we should be ok with the artist changing the look of the sprite so drastically after people have spent much time trying to make complimentary pairings with what was available to to them.

 

I miss the character of the nilia too, they no longer look like carefree little chubsters drifting merrily along without a care in the world, the way I envisioned them in their original pose.

*More sweating* at risk of getting killed here, this. I understand that people get very, very attached to their creations. I am a writer and artist myself and spend literally every day dreaming about my characters and trying to make them the best they can be. HOWEVER, one must remember that DC is, first and foremost, a game that thousands and thousands of people play. Personal desires must, at some point, take a backseat to user interest, and if that's not something one is willing to do, than perhaps keep those designs for your own personal world creation and submit ones you're less attached to to DC.

 

It's like with the Solstices last year. Did the initial idea to discontinue rose wings fit the creator's idea? Yah. But it also shot thousands of players in the foot. Obviously things were changed shortly thereafter, but the fact that it was done in the first place--in a year when so many people were calling for the return of frills and old pinks, to top that--it does sometimes seem like artist wants > player wants, which is not a great thing for a game. I actually really like the new nilia male (would've loved to see a flipped version of him + old sprite as female), but yah, it wrecked havoc with one pumpkin lineage I had and I feel sad for everyone who invested far more time in pygmy lineages than me and now feels they got screwed over. Yes, it might fit the creator's view of the breed better now, but it also harmed some people's hard work in doing so. Don't think lineage making is hard work? Then YOU try making one! They can be really brutal! xd.png

 

Now I'm not saying, of course, that every artist needs to bend to every user's whim! Obviously not! But it would be nice if most of that creative effort was focused into things BEFORE release, so that artists are happy AND users are happy because what they get will always be what they've got.

 

TL;DR yes, be creative and awesome with your submissions, but after they're already in-cave remember that thousands of users have now grown fond of them and be very, very delicate in making any changes after the fact, please.

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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And in the end they're only just pixels.

and the venus de milo is just a rock

 

until somebody puts time and effort into creating something with it

 

tongue.gif

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But people don't build lineages on what things are supposed to look like. They work with what they have and try to make it as pleasing as possible. It is difficult to accept that we should be ok with the artist changing the look of the sprite so drastically after people have spent much time trying to make complimentary pairings with what was available to to them.

 

I miss the character of the nilia too, they no longer look like carefree little chubsters drifting merrily along without a care in the world, the way I envisioned them in their original pose.

I do see the concern here. sad.gif

 

To some extent I think I agree with ADP that updates after the fact must be carefully done.

( THOUGH I for one, happen to actually LIKE the recent updates, for the most part... will take getting used to wink.gif )

 

AND I think IF it be a case of the sprite doesn't fit the conceptor/spriter's vision of the dragon as they intended it ( BUT their art failed at the time) Then...I dunno that is a tricky situation,because as you say, once that sprite is out, then users have their OWN visions of what said dragon is like ( like your example of viewing the nilias as adorable little chubsters when they were meant to be slimmer and lankier) and any change to the contrary ( Even IF it is what the artist originally envisioned) Is going to create hard feelings.

 

It is one of those cases, I think, where you aren't going to please everyone... just try to tick off as few as possible.

 

my thought,i do feel for those who feel like this ruins lineages for them. ( That is a rough break, I admit),BUT I also get it if the sprite was NOT what the spriter wanted. As such, myself I am not PARTICULARLY bothered by the change( THOUGH I get it why some people are). I guess the lesson here is that there are always two sides to everything...and your perspective and opinion isn't the ONLY one.

Edited by Silverswift

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If one of my concepts was released and didn't totally fit my vision, I would fight tooth and nail to get that sprite as perfect to my vision as possible, and shove the update forward. Because these sprites and concepts are our babies. If the Spirit Wards were supposed to have a double frill in back and my spriting skills wouldn't let me portray that, and later on they did, heck yes I would go in and tweak it to make sure they looked the way that they were supposed to.

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There is a clear difference, though, in a change in the original conceptor's and spriter's vision, though, when you look at the Nils. Yes, they went through a significant change, but that's because they didn't fit what they were supposed to. Things like that - that is completely different, and you need to respect the spriter's wishes on the way they want the sprites to look.

 

However, please don't assume that when we do sprite updates, not vision changes, we don't think about lineages or the way others play the game.

And YOU are missing my point:

I KNOW the spriters thought long and hard about it. But they do not see it the same way. How can someone who sees the world in techno-color, understand what someone who is red-green color blind sees?

 

As for respecting wishes, I can flip that around and ask the same thing of you: Please respect the player's views and understand why they are upset and think that you, the spriters, broke faith with them. Whether or not a sprite was meant to be as it was released as, it *was* released, it *was* around for years, and many players *did* spend a lot of time and effort using the sprite as it was.

 

 

Am I fussed about this and other changes? No, I'm not. I build tons of lineages, but I never, EVER assume that a sprite will stay the same, because I've been around the game too long for that sort of assumption. I've become jaded: whatever I, personally, might want or like, the artists reserve the right to destroy my work at any time they choose, in a variety of different ways. They are not my "enemy", and I like many of those artists. But I'm not blind to the differences in the way we look at sprites.

 

 

No, what I'm fussed with is the fact that the artists are INSISTING that they spent all this time looking out for lineage builders and that we can trust their judgement... When as any long-term user knows perfectly well, we can't. And that is because many of the artists view their work through different lenses than we, lineage builders, do. Yes, you spent a lot of time thinking about it, I have absolutely no doubt. But that doesn't mean you will see it the same way as we do.

 

Techno-color vs color blind, dear. Techno-color vs color blind.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

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C4 has a good point, I don't think any spriter deliberately tries to ruin lineages or even that they don't pay attention to how it looks but the usual result of a major sprite update is people who have invested a lot of time in breeding specific lineages feeling aggrieved.

 

This is why although I fully support dimorphism ( the more the better!) I really wish it would be introduced from the beginning rather than changing the sprites years down the road and infuriating lineage builders.

 

That's all a more general point, on this specific update?

 

I LIKE the new horse sprite, a lot, it looks sort of busy in the lineage view but maybe that can be tweaked, I've never done much with the horses but I suspect that might change *ponders*

 

The nilia... everyone by now has mentioned the female's neck, apart from that I don't have a problem with it and I guess I'll get used to them.

 

The Holly... *sighs* Honestly? I'm in the camp that didn't want them messed with despite the wonky anatomy but at least it's not unrecognisable. I appreciate that Birdz has been respectful of the original and I'm pretty ok with the anatomy tweaks and the smoothing out of the shading but...

 

Now this is a personal opinion that people may disagree with, the new sprite is or at least looks a lighter shade and more shiny and for me that is not an improvement, I think it's lost something of the charm of the original (also somehow the legs look spindlier).

 

Not everything has to be blindingly shiny and I have to admit I am not exactly looking forward to the silver update.

Edited by Lilali

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And YOU are missing my point:

I KNOW the spriters thought long and hard about it. But they do not see it the same way. How can someone who sees the world in techno-color, understand what someone who is red-green color blind sees?

 

As for respecting wishes, I can flip that around and ask the same thing of you: Please respect the player's views and understand why they are upset and think that you, the spriters, broke faith with them. Whether or not a sprite was meant to be as it was released as, it *was* released, it *was* around for years, and many players *did* spend a lot of time and effort using the sprite as it was.

 

 

Am I fussed about this and other changes? No, I'm not. I build tons of lineages, but I never, EVER assume that a sprite will stay the same, because I've been around the game too long for that sort of assumption. I've become jaded: whatever I, personally, might want or like, the artists reserve the right to destroy my work at any time they choose, in a variety of different ways. They are not my "enemy", and I like many of those artists. But I'm not blind to the differences in the way we look at sprites.

 

 

No, what I'm fussed with is the fact that the artists are INSISTING that they spent all this time looking out for lineage builders and that we can trust their judgement... When as any long-term user knows perfectly well, we can't. And that is because many of the artists view their work through different lenses than we, lineage builders, do. Yes, you spent a lot of time thinking about it, I have absolutely no doubt. But that doesn't mean you will see it the same way as we do.

 

Techno-color vs color blind, dear. Techno-color vs color blind.

 

Cheers!

C4.

It occurs to me,as well that there is an even BIGGER problem at work here.

 

Art is basically subjective.THAT is... what one person likes another may not.

 

That goes for lineages as well, I have noticed. Different people have different ideas about what dragons they like together in a lineage. Just saying.

 

Even IF the artist could get a general consensus ( WHICH , mind, I am not sure is even entirely possible) from the lineage peeps...I am thinking there would STILL be those that are unhappy.... just as there would be those that think it now looked better.

 

My point? Not EVEN all the lineage makers would view it the same way.

I do feel that care is needed in making changes to existing in cave dragons, and I'm not DISREGARDING the feelings of those that don't like the change, BUT I wonder if it is even possible to entirely avoid displeasing some when changes are made. I mean, even WITH as careful and respectful as birdz was with the hollies there are STILL those that find they liked the old version better. I think the ONLY way to avoid it would be to never change sprites and IF that were the way it were handled... it would be very sad indeed as we would be missing otu on some beautiful artwork ( new golds compared with old!)

Edited by Silverswift

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The Holly... *sighs* Honestly? I'm in the camp that didn't want them messed with despite the wonky anatomy but at least it's not unrecognisable. I appreciate that Birdz has been respectful of the original and I'm pretty ok with the anatomy tweaks and the smoothing out of the shading but...

 

Now this is a personal opinion that people may disagree with, the new sprite is or at least looks a lighter shade and more shiny and for me that is not an improvement, I think it's lost something of the charm of the original (also somehow the legs look spindlier).

 

Not everything has to be blindingly shiny and I have to admit I am not exactly looking forward to the silver update.

Okay but let's take a close look here.

 

user posted image

 

Reds: The palette is literally the exact same. They look a little shinier and satin-y-er because the shading is nice and smooth.

 

Greens: The green is slightly lighter! ...in the highlights. And the green on the original is really dark and flat.

 

Gold: Ah, now, this is interesting, because the overall contrast on the horns really is lighter... but the belly is overall darker than it was. Perhaps the red just looks lighter by comparison? This was necessary, though- that belly is under the dragon, ot needs to be in more shadow than the horns up on top!

 

Anatomy: The legs are mostly the same, mostly it's the near back leg that's a bit slimmer. Really, the biggest change is in the neck, and in how far the horns stick up above the neck, and that was really necessary because is the old one's head even attached to its weird parabola neck??? I don't think they've been made blindingly shiny, either.

 

If you still don't like them, that's still your right and your deal, but I thought I'd try and point out that the degree of change is probably less than you even think.

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Even the smallest of changes can make the most drastic of improvements. Which, I do think these changes were improvements. Not to mean I didn't like the old sprites, I just appreciate the work done way-back-when, and now. Really looking forward to the next updates!

Edited by andromedagalaxia

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@TCA, yeah I agree it's not that there's a huge colour change, it's the overall effect and like I said it's a subjective opinion on this one and for me it doesn't work.

 

As changes go it's one I can live with (not that I have a choice) much happier than say the golds. Not quibbling about the sprites themselves (although I personally was rather fond of the old derpy gold) but the dragons on my scroll after that update had no resemblance to the ones I had collected!

 

I'm would say I'm hoping the same doesn't happen with the silvers but at this point not sure I am particularly hopeful.

Edited by Lilali

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If one of my concepts was released and didn't totally fit my vision, I would fight tooth and nail to get that sprite as perfect to my vision as possible, and shove the update forward. Because these sprites and concepts are our babies. If the Spirit Wards were supposed to have a double frill in back and my spriting skills wouldn't let me portray that, and later on they did, heck yes I would go in and tweak it to make sure they looked the way that they were supposed to.

You have to understand, though, that once a dragon is released, they become other people's babies, too. The tweak you mentioned isn't a big thing and probably wouldn't be a big deal, but what if, say, the person who created blusangs was really not pleased with their color scheme and wanted to make them sky blue with tan accents instead of the other way around? What if the ember creator decided they were really meant to be wingless? What if the deep sea creator wanted them redone to be half concealed in water?

 

Like I said before, I GET being personally attached to characters / concepts, 100%. But you also have to realize art submitted for a game has to put the users first. If there is a concept you are so deeply attached to that you can't bear it being in the slightest bit imperfect--even when, in the eyes of many users, those "imperfections" are half the charm--then perhaps consider keeping the original design for yourself and submitting a slightly different one to DC that, while you might want to tweak a little, sure, you aren't going to feel compelled to change radically. Because people are, by that point, as attached to them as you are. Heck, the new nilia male is GREAT, art wise and cute wise, but at the same time it's hurting what many people had grown attached to--the view of them as cute, pocket sized cuddlers. You see what I'm saying?? The attachment effect goes both ways, but you have to remember while there is one creator, there are thousands of players. <XD

 

Obviously this only applies to really BIG changes--most little adjustments are no big deal. Just remember that, even with a moderate change like to the nilias, fixing for the creator's concept of what is best can hurt the emotional attachments others have made, too.

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Not sure how I feel about the nillia's, but that horse sprite is awesome! biggrin.gif

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You have to understand, though, that once a dragon is released, they become other people's babies, too. The tweak you mentioned isn't a big thing and probably wouldn't be a big deal, but what if, say, the person who created blusangs was really not pleased with their color scheme and wanted to make them sky blue with tan accents instead of the other way around? What if the ember creator decided they were really meant to be wingless? What if the deep sea creator wanted them redone to be half concealed in water?

 

Like I said before, I GET being personally attached to characters / concepts, 100%. But you also have to realize art submitted for a game has to put the users first. If there is a concept you are so deeply attached to that you can't bear it being in the slightest bit imperfect--even when, in the eyes of many users, those "imperfections" are half the charm--then perhaps consider keeping the original design for yourself and submitting a slightly different one to DC that, while you might want to tweak a little, sure, you aren't going to feel compelled to change radically. Because people are, by that point, as attached to them as you are. Heck, the new nilia male is GREAT, art wise and cute wise, but at the same time it's hurting what many people had grown attached to--the view of them as cute, pocket sized cuddlers. You see what I'm saying?? The attachment effect goes both ways, but you have to remember while there is one creator, there are thousands of players. <XD

 

Obviously this only applies to really BIG changes--most little adjustments are no big deal. Just remember that, even with a moderate change like to the nilias, fixing for the creator's concept of what is best can hurt the emotional attachments others have made, too.

Have we done anything that visually drastic? I don't think so? So I doubt it's a thing you need to worry about.

 

The only thing done to Nilias was that the male was reposed, and the female made somewhat bigger and lankier. Colors stayed the same, anatomy mostly the same (just improved), overall better sprites than the originals. Now don't get me wrong - I loved the old sprites. I was very attached to my little Nappak (who was named after an OC of mine who I always wanted to give a tiny blue feylizard), and when I first saw the changes, I didn't like them at all. BUT. I respect the spriter's wishes, and have come to really really like them for what they are.

 

If you want to bring up the Golds, because I see that coming, compare the two sprites - both old and new. Look at general features. Did anything change? They still have the same horn design, the same back spikes, the same tails, the ONLY feature that didn't make it into the new sprites was the plated bellies. That was the only thing.

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Have we done anything that visually drastic? I don't think so? So I doubt it's a thing you need to worry about.

 

The only thing done to Nilias was that the male was reposed, and the female made somewhat bigger and lankier. Colors stayed the same, anatomy mostly the same (just improved), overall better sprites than the originals. Now don't get me wrong - I loved the old sprites. I was very attached to my little Nappak (who was named after an OC of mine who I always wanted to give a tiny blue feylizard), and when I first saw the changes, I didn't like them at all. BUT. I respect the spriter's wishes, and have come to really really like them for what they are.

 

If you want to bring up the Golds, because I see that coming, compare the two sprites - both old and new. Look at general features. Did anything change? They still have the same horn design, the same back spikes, the same tails, the ONLY feature that didn't make it into the new sprites was the plated bellies. That was the only thing.

Nah, you're right, we haven't had anything that crazy yet. tongue.gif However, as the nilias have shown, even fairly moderate changes can really affect how people perceive them, which--ironically enough--hurts those who loved the dragon the most the greatest. Which is all I ask is that, when artists choose to update their breeds, they remember who loves them currently and why, too. smile.gif (Which, so far, you guys have been doing pretty great with <3)

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Have we done anything that visually drastic? I don't think so? So I doubt it's a thing you need to worry about.

 

The only thing done to Nilias was that the male was reposed, and the female made somewhat bigger and lankier. Colors stayed the same, anatomy mostly the same (just improved), overall better sprites than the originals. Now don't get me wrong - I loved the old sprites. I was very attached to my little Nappak (who was named after an OC of mine who I always wanted to give a tiny blue feylizard), and when I first saw the changes, I didn't like them at all. BUT. I respect the spriter's wishes, and have come to really really like them for what they are.

The wonderful thing which made the new Nilias easier for me to accept is the fact that the old Nilia image remains on the Encyclopedia page with the new sprites. When I saw that, I could clearly see how all three images are part of the Nilia family. <3

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Nah, you're right, we haven't had anything that crazy yet. tongue.gif However, as the nilias have shown, even fairly moderate changes can really affect how people perceive them, which--ironically enough--hurts those who loved the dragon the most the greatest. Which is all I ask is that, when artists choose to update their breeds, they remember who loves them currently and why, too. smile.gif (Which, so far, you guys have been doing pretty great with <3)

Unfortunately, though, we also cannot please all the people all of the time. Half the people want updates; half the people abhor them. It's a hard decision to make, and one we think hard and carefully on, but it's a decision we have to make nonetheless.

 

I think all the updates have been amazing so far, and I agree that the artists involved in them have done spectacularly. (:

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I still dont care for Holly's, but my dislike of them is ore based on them being a holiday breed, rather than the images themselves. The new ones are much better than the old ones though.

 

Nilias.. I like them. The females neck could stand to be a pixel or two shorter, but the arch in her back, with the swing of that neck just looks like part of the natural wing movement to me.

 

The horses look like horses. I have a hard time seeing them as dragons to begin with, but i do like the more interesting pose. I think I would like to see him reversed, but hes alright the way he is i think.

Edited by Thuban

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I'm would say I'm hoping the same doesn't happen with the silvers but at this point not sure I am particularly hopeful.

You and me both. Only, I'm sure I'm not hopeful.

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Am I fussed about this and other changes? No, I'm not. I build tons of lineages, but I never, EVER assume that a sprite will stay the same, because I've been around the game too long for that sort of assumption. I've become jaded: whatever I, personally, might want or like, the artists reserve the right to destroy my work at any time they choose, in a variety of different ways. They are not my "enemy", and I like many of those artists. But I'm not blind to the differences in the way we look at sprites.

For the most part, even though I like lineages, I'm with the artists on this one.

 

As far as destroying your work, think of it this way- one day this site won't exist anymore, then all your work will be for nothing anyway.

This is just supposed to be for fun. *shrugs shoulders*

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