Breeding Guardians of Nature with Each Other.

[Cireth]

Okay I've read through the thread and have some edits to make:

 

I think it would be quite neat to be able to breed a Guardian of Nature with another Guardian of Nature to produce one of the three Avatars. Wouldn't an Avatar with two Guardian of Nature parents be fantastic?

 

Which Avatar they produced would depend on the time of year.

 

Avatars of Change from the 1st January till the 30th April because at that time of year winter is changing into spring.

 

Avatars of Creation from 1st May till the 31st August because Spring and Summer are seasons of new life (Creation).

 

Avatars of Destruction from 1st September till the 31st December because in fall going into winter is when plants die. (Destruction).

 

Okay people didn't like that but suggested that Avatars produced could be random. I think that could work.

 

As to GONs breeding true, that was not my original intention and I think it might make an interesting fourth option but only if the bred GONs couldn't leave our scrolls or affect the Summon limit. Anyway I see this as more of a side issue even though it might be cool.

 

Thoughts?

Edited September 12, 2015 by Cireth

[danicast]

No, I'm 100% against this idea.

GoNs have a very sophisticated breed system based in the element of the GoN pair and this system is beautiful and interesting. Your suggestion reduces GoNs to be just like any other dragon breed and that's why I am against the idea.

GoNs are unique. They should stay as they are now, you have to summon to get one and you have to carefully chose the mate to get the avatar that you want and you can't breed a Gon with another Gon. It's more interesting and creative.

Edited September 7, 2015 by danicast

[annageckos]

I'm not against this, but I won't be upset if it never happens either. It would be interesting.

[Alectrona]

As I understand it, when GoNs breed with something with neutral affinity they never produce Avatars (please correct me if I'm wrong!). GoNs themselves are neutral and I don't think they should be an exception to this rule. While I can agree it would be cool to have GoNxGoN pairings, I'd rather their breeding mechanics stay as they are.

[Kovia]

Don't really see a need for it. Not fully against, but no support.

This would probably take more effort than it's really worth to code, and would be liable to briefly break GoN's breeding habits/pattern. They're complicated enough as it is.

Also, from a RP standpoint, presumably Avatars are basically a watered-down GoN created by inheriting inferior magic from their non-GoN parent. So having PB Avatars wouldn't make sense since, by this logic, they should be full GoNs. And bred GoNs are already off the table.

[Obscure_Trash]

As I understand it, when GoNs breed with something with neutral affinity they never produce Avatars (please correct me if I'm wrong!). GoNs themselves are neutral

This is exactly what I was thinking to point out.

 

I can see how it makes sense for them to be able to pb avatars, but at the same time it also doesn't.

 

I'm conflicted on where I really stand. I won't be too disappointed if it's not added, but I won't complain if it's added either.

[purplehaze]

This seems to go against all that we know about how GoNs breed, producing different offspring depending on the mate's affinity. It doesn't really make much sense to me to have their offspring change with the time of year like the Seasonals.

 

I can't say I am dead set against this, but I certainly don't see a need for it. GoNs are more special as they are now.

[Odeen]

I don't particularly see a point to this, given the GON breeding mechanics and its status as a preserver of balance. I'm just a contributor, but I can't imagine that two guardians would produce their more unstable counterparts simply due to the time of year.

[olympe]

Considering how long it may take a person to not only summon one, but two GoNs (that have to be of opposing gender and not refuse each other), I don't think this is a very good idea. Too frustrating for way too many people. (Fuzz, just how long did it take you to summon your first/second GoN?)

[Tigerkralle]

The only dragon that i can image that would be the outcome if two GoN ever breed together would be another GoN but there are no bred GoN. A GoN is the most powerful dragon ever and why should two of them breed an inferior Avatar?

 

I am against this idea.

 

A GoN has to be summoned and there are users who summoned for years and still got nothing. And can you imagine the trading market with bred Guardian of Natures. I like the Legendaries like they are.

 

Quoting olympe:

Considering how long it may take a person to not only summon one, but two GoNs (that have to be of opposing gender and not refuse each other), I don't think this is a very good idea. Too frustrating for way too many people. (Fuzz, just how long did it take you to summon your first/second GoN?)

This is also a valid argument against GoNxGoN.

 

Edit:

And then there is the limit of GoN on our scolls. Only three! Enough for having a male and a female and one frozen in stage 1 or stage 2.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Tigerkralle

[SkylerFarrier]

I don't particularly see a point to this, given the GON breeding mechanics and its status as a preserver of balance. I'm just a contributor, but I can't imagine that two guardians would produce their more unstable counterparts simply due to the time of year.

Strongly against this, but I feel I should point out the single argument towards the lore:

The GON mate makes a plea to the Guardian about how their element needs a balancing force, and the GON makes an attempt to breed that force - resulting in either a hatchling of the petitioner's breed, or of a hatchling capable of contributing to the petitioner's cause.

 

The only dragon that i can image that would be the outcome if two GoN ever breed together would be another GoN but there are no bred GoN. A GoN is the most powerful dragon ever and why should two of them breed an inferior Avatar? 

A GON/GON simply observes that the seasons are changing and a force is needed to help usher in this change.

 

 

 

 

... yeah I know this is complicated, but that's the only reason I can see for this idea.

[Odeen]

The problem with that is that Avatars of Change, with their mastery of time magic, would be the only 'logical' product of a union meant to usher in a changing season. Avatars of Creation and Destruction have no power in that regard.

[VixenDra]

The only dragon that i can image that would be the outcome if two GoN ever breed together would be another GoN but there are no bred GoN. A GoN is the most powerful dragon ever and why should two of them breed an inferior Avatar? 

 

And being so powerful they can't even breed true:/ It never made sense to me.

They are Guardians of Nature but, ironically, they can't even breed within the laws of nature. This never made sense to me.

 

While I don't think GoNxGoN->Avatar(lesser breed) makes sense, I strongly believe that even less sense is being made with the current 'can breed with lesser dragons but not properly=with each other'.

First of all, they violate laws of nature, 2nd of all they're likely to lower themelves to breed with lesser species while not breeding even-to-even(GoN with GoN)? What's the logic behind that?

To me it's closely like if homans bred only with animals but not with another human and like if aristocracy could breed with peasants but not with aristocracy... Somewhere kind of inbetween those. Between forced zoophilia and forced misalliance.

 

I simply don't think GoNs make any sense at all. Not nature-wise. And shouldn't they be a bit too proud to breed with lesser breeds only?

Therefore I don't think we should focus too much on if sth made sense or not(nature-wise, not game-play wise) to implement as it can't be worse than it is already^^;

 

They should be able breed true. While still being summonabe and breeding Avatars like they do now. This WON'T make them any less unique, as they'll still be the only summonable breed of dragons and the only breed that breeds hybrids so specific as Avatars are bred. 'Uniqueness' is a poor argument of the 'I just hate changes' kind, to be honest.

 

 

 

If I could decide I'd made them:

Still summonable and Avatar-breeding when bred to other breeds

but able to breeding true (GoNxGoN->GoN)

while the bred GoNs must stay on one's scroll and never reach adulthood(auto-freeze if not frozen on S1 stage), bred GoNs don't count to the GoN limit of 3 and are not limited. They are just for sprites and for being related to some adults. Obtainable only by GoNxGoN breeding, never by GoNxOther breed.

 

This would allow:

Freezing GoNs for sprites without wasting the ability to get 3 adults.

Making sprite collecting based families of 5: MF adults, MF S2s, S1, while frozens being related to the parents possible.

Having 3 adults and some frozen hatchlings without rising the limit.

Would not affect trades (as can't leave scroll)

In general would not affect anything we already have, exept for simply adding bred frozens to breeder's scroll only. I'd even exclude them from GoN ratio as they can't possibly contribute to the poll. I'd give the bred GoNs separate ratio as if they were a separate breed. So summoned GoNs are not affected at all.

 

 

 

And I'm actually looking forward to see GoNs breeding true. To GoNs being true guardians of nature.

 

Also, based on the name of the breed, I think GoNs should rather breed true ONLY and be unable or unlikely to breed with any other dragon breeds. That's what would make sense of a guardian of nature. To guard natural laws of reproduction as well.

Animals mostly breed true, they normally cross-breed much less than breed true.

Edited September 8, 2015 by VixenDra

[Odeen]

For the record, VixenDra, every dragon in this game violates the laws of nature. There are no genetics, some dragons can breed year-round but magically can't reproduce their own kind except during a completely arbitrary window of time, some dragons are made out of enchanted paper and cheese. Most of these dragons would be physically incapable of coupling even if their genes were marginally compatible in real life. If you're planning on taking a road trip on DC's adherence to the laws of nature, you won't even be getting off the front porch.

 

Which is fine. T.J. has said many times that DC as a browser game operates under game logic and not biology.

 

(all of this is beside the point that your motivation for suggesting this and yet another increase of the GON limit is to support your own narrowly tailored playstyle, rather than because you are concerned for the biological accuracy of the game)

 

 

[VixenDra]

For the record, VixenDra, every dragon in this game violates the laws of nature. There are no genetics, some dragons can breed year-round but magically can't reproduce their own kind except during a completely arbitrary window of time, some dragons are made out of enchanted paper and cheese. Most of these dragons would be physically incapable of coupling even if their genes were marginally compatible in real life. If you're planning on taking a road trip on DC's adherence to the laws of nature, you won't even be getting off the front porch.

 

Which is fine. T.J. has said many times that DC as a browser game operates under game logic and not biology.

 

(all of this is beside the point that your motivation for suggesting this and yet another increase of the GON limit is to support your own narrowly tailored playstyle, rather than because you are concerned for the biological accuracy of the game)

Still, I'm speaking of GUARDIANS of NATURE, and only about them and because of their name ;] Note I'm not reffering to any other breed for being natural or not.

 

Also, as you're reffering to them, Papers and Cheese make sense in terms of breeding - they can't. Same with Zombies or Vampires as they're not trurly alive as well.

 

(missed the grey; and is this a problem that a suggestion is made out of NEED? I'd rather say that's the only reason to make suggestions at all, out of some existing need. Otherwise why som soggestion should be implemented if it doesn't make ANY sense(=serve,help,is useful) to anyone, including the suggester? Also I can recall there were lots of user complaints about the frozen GoNs being a waste of limit -because of breeding- after Avatars release)

Edited September 8, 2015 by VixenDra

[Tehya Faye]

I don't think it's against nature for different breeds of dragons to mate. Dogs don't care about breeds, they just mate with whatever dog is available regardless of what it looks like. Dragons are dragons.

 

I'm really indifferent to the suggestion itself. I wouldn't mind if it were implemented, but I'd never utilize it since I prefer checkers over PB.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think it'd make more sense if it produced a random avatar. Logic could be that the GoNs sense which force is most needed at the time, and they produce avatars instead of GoNs because they are formed from a more mundane method than magical creation.

[TCA]

I do think it'd be neat to be able to breed two GoNs and get a random avatar, but I won't fuss too much if they don't. The lineages would be fantastic though.

[NotBambi]

Why not? Mildly interested but I like the idea of breeding two GoN and getting random avatars.

[SkylerFarrier]

The problem with that is that Avatars of Change, with their mastery of time magic, would be the only 'logical' product of a union meant to usher in a changing season. Avatars of Creation and Destruction have no power in that regard.

And you found the gaping hole in my one reason for supporting this idea. Now I am free to list alllll the reasons I don't support this.

 

 

GONs are practically gods, yes? And they are capable of making elementally-charged demigods when bred with (my new headcanon is "petitioned by") a "mere" dragon.

I think it'd make more sense if it produced a random avatar. Logic could be that the GoNs sense which force is most needed at the time, and they produce avatars instead of GoNs because they are formed from a more mundane method than magical creation.

"more mundane method" referring to the breeding of dragon/GON and "magical creation" referring to the summoning of a GON egg by the combined might of Fire, Ice, and Storm? I just wanted to be clear here.

 

Looking at VixenDra's long post, what I take from that is two GONs deciding that there are not enough practically-all-powerful-forces-of-nature around and they must make another being with their exact same power.

It would make far more sense for the mating to produce one of the Avatars - spawning some random dragon is just where did that even come from?

 

And being so powerful they can't even breed true:/ It never made sense to me.

They are Guardians of Nature but, ironically, they can't even breed within the laws of nature. This never made sense to me.

If you want to get super picky on genetics and "breeding true"/"within the laws of nature", I can lecture you about slime mold reproduction. Some breeds of slime mold can have up to 29 different gamete types, compared to our human two (X and Y). The key point here is that in order to breed, the two interested slime molds cannot have the same gamete type at the same spot as their partner does (in humans that would just be the second spot xY versus xX).

"Now let’s say you’re one of these fungi. If at location MAT-A you have the A2 mating type allele, and at location MAT-B you have the B1 mating type allele, then your mating type is A2B1. You must find a partner who is different than you at both locations (may I suggest A1B2?)."

That is just a tiny section from one long page on the topic that gets even more complicated.

How do we go back to adorable little pixelated dragons? Two Neotropicals can breed with each other because they are "different" at the places it matters, their sex - male and female. Yes, GONs do have sexes, but they're "too similar" at a place where it appears to matter to these nigh-deities.

I leave off here with my Bio Logic before I digress too far.

[pederino]

If you want to get super picky on genetics and "breeding true"/"within the laws of nature", I can lecture you about slime mold reproduction. Some breeds of slime mold can have up to 29 different gamete types, compared to our human two (X and Y). The key point here is that in order to breed, the two interested slime molds cannot have the same gamete type at the same spot as their partner does (in humans that would just be the second spot xY versus xX).

"Now let’s say you’re one of these fungi. If at location MAT-A you have the A2 mating type allele, and at location MAT-B you have the B1 mating type allele, then your mating type is A2B1. You must find a partner who is different than you at both locations (may I suggest A1B2?)."

That is just a tiny section from one long page on the topic that gets even more complicated.

How do we go back to adorable little pixelated dragons? Two Neotropicals can breed with each other because they are "different" at the places it matters, their sex - male and female. Yes, GONs do have sexes, but they're "too similar" at a place where it appears to matter to these nigh-deities.

I leave off here with my Bio Logic before I digress too far.

You are comparing a fungi to an animal (at least I am pretty sure a dragon is more closely to be an animal than a fungi)? Sorry, but that doesnt make sense..

 

Also, I dont think she is being too picky (rude, agressive... yes), what she said is more or less in the margins of logic, naturally wise (even though nature can surprise us...) and magically wise (I mean, the GoN is basically a god here in DC but has to be summoned, is unable to summon another one of its kind and cant breed with itself).

 

I would really like if GoN could breed with themselves, just for fun.

 

Of course, the main issues I see with this suggestion are:

What if the GoNs refuse (yes, all of them)? I can see many killing of GoNs if this occurs.

How much the rate would be to get an Avatar (or GoN if it becomes possible) from a GoN couple?

If you can get GoNs from GoNxGoN, could you trade that offspring? Or would you have to keep it until death/freezing/adulthood? I vote for the 2nd one just in case.

 

[helix9]

"more mundane method" referring to the breeding of dragon/GON and "magical creation" referring to the summoning of a GON egg by the combined might of Fire, Ice, and Storm? I just wanted to be clear here.

Actually that's a particularly good detail to point out. A GoN is created by the force of Trio dragons coming together to Summon one with their connection to the elements. If we're going to be extra technical, a GoN's ability to "channel the forces of fire, ice and lightning" (from their description) means that they should also be able to summon a GoN by themselves, aka with just ONE parent, like vampires. Therefore, there should never be a situation where a GoN x GoN pairing breeds a GoN, because that's simply not how they come into the world.

 

(I wonder if having a GoN increases your chances of summoning another one, in the same way that having several magmas/ices/thunders increases the probability? That would be an interesting suggestion by itself, along with letting your current GoN's also have access to the Summon BSA.)

 

Breeding Avatars really shouldn't happen either, as it was previously mentioned that they don't have an elemental affinity. I mean, they even refuse a handful of Valentines dragons, and several breeds can't ever breed any type of avatar because they're neutral. If Cassares are neutral, GoN's are even more neutral than that! It would be sorta neat if they did but it would feel a little strange. If it ever did happen, I also think it should be random.

 

 

tl;dr: no to breeding GoN's, noncommittal hand-wavey shrug at breeding random avatars

[beautifuldragon5000]

I could see a low chance breed being added from GoN breeding thats even more epic that the GoNs themselves but them breeding avatars I really don't support this because of the reasons everyone else has already stated and I don't feel the need to rehash in my post

[CNR4806]

Let's see, I had 2 GoNs before the avatar update, both male because I know there's no sprite difference and there's no breeding.

 

After the avatar update, I got my 3rd GoN, which I also influenced male due to personal reason and because I find the loss of not having a female minimal as they can't breed with each other.

 

And now you're suggesting something that would put me in a serious disadvantage based on decisions on the past that did not. While I don't disagree with the principles of the suggestion per se, I will not support this without a 4th GoN slot.

 

 

Also, hell no to GoNs breeding true. This will greatly diminish the breed's uniqueness and status. I'm pretty sure I've made my point clear in the past.

Edited September 9, 2015 by CNR4806

[GoldeenTrix]

I know this is way off topic, but since GONs are practically gods, imagine what happens when you do try to get them to breed.

 

Breeder: "You. Yes you, the all powerful dragon god that could probably kill me in a split second if you wanted to, go make a baby with that pillow dragon."

GON:"Now?"

Breeder:"Yes."

GON:"Ok."

Pillow Dragon:" Excuse me what?? Do I have no say in this?"

Breeder:"No."

Pillow Dragon: "<_<"