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Obscure_Trash

ANSWERED:Paid Perks

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TJ's got a good job. He's already said he doesn't need the money. He's said this in the past several times as well. This isn't a plea for money. It's an interest poll. Let's not derail the topic by doubting TJ's word regarding his personal finances.

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and DC has a chat where nice things get tossed out too, but if you don't happen to be a part of that group for whatever reason you don't directly benefit from all the nice things going on there. Gifting is great, but it can't help all the players that are lacking nice things. I can't see that people gifting things they got through pay for play perks will have much of a trickle down effect.

I think if users try to make it work, it can.

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I think if users try to make it work, it can.

Or we can petition loud and hard to have it changed enough so that it can work.

 

Look at the AP vis a vis the Biomes: the AP blocking the Biomes didn't work, we raised a ruckus and it changed.

The bred Holidays: we raised a ruckus when the wall of old ones got horrid, and things changed. Now we can have as many breds as we want.

The CB PRize situation: we fought for change... And there were 600 ish released this winter.

 

We CAN make it work... If we give it a chance.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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DC is already broken in that regard. Should we break it even MORE?

 

 

 

Prizes = ~150 or less of each type each year with no ways to get extras.

 

Commons in another biome are several dozen orders of magnitude below that. Plus, people already readily gift 3g Prizes, help others catch CB Halloweens, give away free CB Metals / Trios / Coppers. So while, yes, you'd have silly blokes trying to ransom off a common-by-the-dozen egg and asking for "CB Golds or 2g Prizes only plz lololol" the chances of them getting such a trade would be almost zero. People would be throwing the eggs at their friends, if nothing else, and I'm sure many more would be gifted out on the whole. Plus, again: 10$ for a YEAR. The cost of eating out at a cheap fast food joint ONCE for a whole year of goodies.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'd rather there be NO paid in-game perks, but since more and more people in this thread are asking "yes please let us buy CB Prizes / Metals / faster access" ... I'd take a very cheap, very long term single payment for a biome that's got way more commons than anything over turning rares into $$$ signs.

No, wouldn't be MORE. Actually would be LESS. Your example below is proof.

Right now, let's assume that there are maybe 100 CB Prize owners in the trading market; no idea how many Prize owners are active but I know that I do not see more than that in the trading threads. If your suggestion was to be implemented, the market would become quite more competitive just because of the numbers and CB Prize owners wouldn't have the same "trading power". Not only, the paying players would be gifting their friends, dropping offsprings in the AP and/or in gifting threads.

 

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If there were paid perks then the longevity of the site is just more likely to be protected and something that pays for itself vs something that doesn't the former probably just gets more attention feature-wise.

 

Even indirectly 'personal finances' can have a pretty big impact on sites. Better financed people can access more resources. These could be anything from educational resources like textbooks containing paywalled access to tips and tricks not available to the general population and tutors to medical care (meaning more potential uptime and time spent working on features and quality of life), to more servers to improve the access of every user to Dragcave.

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If there were paid perks then the longevity of the site is just more likely to be protected and something that pays for itself vs something that doesn't the former probably just gets more attention feature-wise.

 

Even indirectly 'personal finances' can have a pretty big impact on sites. Better financed people can access more resources. These could be anything from educational resources like textbooks containing paywalled access to tips and tricks not available to the general population and tutors to medical care (meaning more potential uptime and time spent working on features and quality of life), to more servers to improve the access of every user to Dragcave.

Agreed.

 

 

I do not doubt that TJ is doing well financially. What I'm concerned about is different. TJ has a job, has a life in Northern California that (based in my experience) is quite a cool place with lots of opportunities to go out with friends and have fun. I've no reason to doubt that DC could be financially viable as it is. But, why should TJ "invest" his time and efforts to code our suggestions instead of enjoying free time? Why should TJ invest money on faster equipment, measures anti-lag when all he gets is "Thank you" and people whining even in the new releases threads. For how long the current situation will last until he tells us to go empty the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon? And maybe sells the site to people quite more money-oriented than he is?

Dragon Cave is great. But there are things we are not happy about. I think we can contribute more. Donations are not the answer, a source of revenue that allows for planning is.

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Blindwolf, I agree the hand of charity is pretty sticky. But what if paid perks could be worked in a way that charity wasn't any more of a thing than it is now? I think I'll take a page out of Marrionetta's book and try to think of ways that paid perks could be used in-game without ruining things.

 

I don't much like the biome idea because it's breeds non-payers can't directly access. If this were to become a thing I'd rather the paids don't access anything the non-paids can't get at all.

 

but the store idea... that I think has possibilities. This has been tossed around some earlier, but in-game currency. Say there's a cap of 100 credits per week. You can earn up to that cap by game play - that is, breeding, catching, hatching, etc. Or you can pay a certain amount and get that much. No one can get more than 100 credits a week because of the cap. Everyone can get up to the cap by playing.

 

Things that can be purchased in the store with game credits could be dragons, gender changes, scroll name changes, extra influence potions, incubate potions, etc. Say a prize dragon would cost 5000 credits. No one is going to earn one in less than about a year whether with money or no money.

 

I don't know, there's probably tons of things wrong with that idea, but I like the buffer of in-game currency better than outright purchasing things. I'm still not particularly in favor of paying for in-game things but if it keeps things level it's less objectionable to me.

 

And I certainly think trying to find ways to make it fair for all is better than screaming "no" at the top of my lungs, no matter what anyone says. Or saying "gloom and doom" because of past experiences. DC does have a pretty fantastic user base and a pretty savvy bossman.

 

 

I dunno. I still think I prefer in-game perks not be buyable. Stuff that can be considered out of game, merchandise, that stuff's fine with me.

Edited by Fiona BlueFire

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Blindwolf, I agree the hand of charity is pretty sticky. But what if paid perks could be worked in a way that charity wasn't any more of a thing than it is now? I think I'll take a page out of Marrionetta's book and try to think of ways that paid perks could be used in-game without ruining things.

 

I don't much like the biome idea because it's breeds non-payers can't directly access. If this were to become a thing I'd rather the paids don't access anything the non-paids can't get at all.

 

but the store idea... that I think has possibilities. This has been tossed around some earlier, but in-game currency. Say there's a cap of 100 credits per week. You can earn up to that cap by game play - that is, breeding, catching, hatching, etc. Or you can pay a certain amount and get that much. No one can get more than 100 credits a week because of the cap. Everyone can get up to the cap by playing.

 

Things that can be purchased in the store with game credits could be dragons, gender changes, scroll name changes, extra influence potions, incubate potions, etc. Say a prize dragon would cost 5000 credits. No one is going to earn one in less than about a year whether with money or no money.

 

I don't know, there's probably tons of things wrong with that idea, but I like the buffer of in-game currency better than outright purchasing things. I'm still not particularly in favor of paying for in-game things but if it keeps things level it's less objectionable to me.

 

And I certainly think trying to find ways to make it fair for all is better than screaming "no" at the top of my lungs, no matter what anyone says. Or saying "gloom and doom" because of past experiences. DC does have a pretty fantastic user base and a pretty savvy bossman.

 

 

I dunno. I still think I prefer in-game perks not be buyable. Stuff that can be considered out of game, merchandise, that stuff's fine with me.

What if the credits worked also for the access to that new biome and other perks? i.e. you can pay monthly or annually for your membership that includes access to that special BIOME. Or, you can earn credits to "pay" for, dunno, one month of membership.

 

Edited because I'd a Perfect Manhattan and that did not improve my writing skills.

Edited by NotBambi

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Blindwolf, I agree the hand of charity is pretty sticky. But what if paid perks could be worked in a way that charity wasn't any more of a thing than it is now? I think I'll take a page out of Marrionetta's book and try to think of ways that paid perks could be used in-game without ruining things.

 

I don't much like the biome idea because it's breeds non-payers can't directly access. If this were to become a thing I'd rather the paids don't access anything the non-paids can't get at all.

 

but the store idea... that I think has possibilities. This has been tossed around some earlier, but in-game currency. Say there's a cap of 100 credits per week. You can earn up to that cap by game play - that is, breeding, catching, hatching, etc. Or you can pay a certain amount and get that much. No one can get more than 100 credits a week because of the cap. Everyone can get up to the cap by playing.

 

Things that can be purchased in the store with game credits could be dragons, gender changes, scroll name changes, extra influence potions, incubate potions, etc. Say a prize dragon would cost 5000 credits. No one is going to earn one in less than about a year whether with money or no money.

 

I don't know, there's probably tons of things wrong with that idea, but I like the buffer of in-game currency better than outright purchasing things. I'm still not particularly in favor of paying for in-game things but if it keeps things level it's less objectionable to me.

 

And I certainly think trying to find ways to make it fair for all is better than screaming "no" at the top of my lungs, no matter what anyone says. Or saying "gloom and doom" because of past experiences. DC does have a pretty fantastic user base and a pretty savvy bossman.

I do think it's possible to make them work. Like if you could pay for things that don't directly effect gameplay, such as skins, badges, other little things like that? I think that's completely okay.

 

Being able to buy dragons is something I'd be mostly okay with as long as everybody can catch them in the cave, at that point it's not too much of an advantage, people are just saving themselves time and a little labor using money they can pick up through normal gameplay. Not sure about offering rares, though. That goes doubly so for things like name changes, because ultimately that's just a little cosmetic thing that doesn't effect the game. I'm a little more iffy on things like incubates, but they're not exactly a dealbreaker, I suppose. This is basically what my opinion was in the shop thread we had a while ago.

 

Edit: Oh, and because this occurred to me, dragons definitely shouldn't be released to a shop before they're available in the cave. That's not an end of the world thing, but I much prefer everything coming out in releases like now.

 

I'm very, very cautious about this sort of thing, but I think part of the issue, for me, is that a lot of people seem to have come into this wanting exclusive biomes, dragons, or features that you couldn't get without paying. That's the sort of thing I'm so strongly against. I'm not really screaming, but I am pretty passionate about it, and I think this sort of caution is very warranted when matters of money are involved.

 

But in the end, this is just what I think wouldn't ruin things. Like you, I think the best way to handle it is to limit it to things that don't effect the game.

Edited by BlindWolf

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I'm not opposed to paid perks. There are lots of games I've played where other people spent money to get something, and I had to work harder for that same something. That didn't make it any less fun. It meant I got to feel accomplished for achieving something somebody else couldn't find the heart to work for. Or something. xd.png

 

Anyhoo, a store sounds great. Make an in-game currency. Make it so, if you can/want to be lazy, you can buy it with $. New features keep it entertaining. I'm always up for entertaining.

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I'm not opposed to paid perks. There are lots of games I've played where other people spent money to get something, and I had to work harder for that same something. That didn't make it any less fun. It meant I got to feel accomplished for achieving something somebody else couldn't find the heart to work for. Or something. xd.png

 

Anyhoo, a store sounds great. Make an in-game currency. Make it so, if you can/want to be lazy, you can buy it with $. New features keep it entertaining. I'm always up for entertaining.

Hey I want to be lazy. I work an average of 80 hours per week (not a lawyer in NYC) so when I show up in DC is to relax. Assuming that I'm able to relax. Any way, does someone see a problem with adding "pay membership with credits instead of hard earned money" to the store?

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I'm not really screaming

Oh, were you thinking of screaming too? I meant me. tongue.gif

 

I agree though that limiting anything paid to stuff that anyone can get, paid or not paid, works better for me than allowing people to buy stuff that only money can get them. I really don't like that idea.

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How about you propose a course of action that would make paid perks an awesome feature for everybody?

I know that you were addressing ADP but this would be my plan of action:

1. Create paid membership to include access to special biome and whatever TJ/we could come up with.

2. Implement store suggestion, based on activity and mana-like games and whatever TJ/we could come up with.

3. Allow paid membership or a fraction of it (i.e. month instead of year) to be a "store product".

4. Add paid memberships to annual raffle prizes.

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Do you think the trade market is bad now, with how it's choked to death with requests for low gen shimmers and various metals? This would be that problem times then, because now that dragon is worth actual money. And so are its children, and on and on, and the only people with access to it are those who paid for it or those who begged for it and then decided to give their eggs to someone else who begged. There's no multiclutch to insure dispersal like with holidays. And besides that, dragons are the main point of this site. Forcing us to pay for dragons would be the most disgusting possible thing to put behind a paywall.

To add to being worth actual money, isn't that one of the rules of DC? No trading dragons for money, etc? Yeah I get the different topic atm, but still. We're paying with money to get dragons, so does that mean we can pay other users money for offspring?

 

Im also a fan of playing DC as is. No buying Cb golds, Shimmers, what have you. That's a part of the game. If we were just handed the option to have what we want..well...not much fun in that. Sure "you don't have to buy things you know" comes ueggs.

 

Honestly Dc is the only site I'm actively on. Because it doesn't have any "perks" for giving money.

 

I'd be fine with playing the mini games over, gives you something to play with while you wait for eggs or hatchies to grow up.

 

 

As for the hour lag, I have high speed connection(and no I have 2 Cb golds, one from 2010, and one, by some miracle I got one during this release. Just because we have high speed doesn't mean we can get things easier)... And even I'm getting 3 minute lag. So its not just a slow connection issue, there's a topic about it floating around

 

Tl;Dr I'm against paid perks that give faster connection, buy dragons, cool down on Bsa/kill, removing dead eggs. If paid perks come in, I won't QUIT but I wouldn't be buying. One because I can't. And two because DC did fine without perks. Look how people get upset over the little things here. Now imagine the drama when people can pay to get what they want.

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As for the hour lag, I have high speed connection(and no I have 2 Cb golds, one from 2010, and one, by some miracle I got one during this release. Just because we have high speed doesn't mean we can get things easier)... And even I'm getting 3 minute lag. So its not just a slow connection issue, there's a topic about it floating around

 

Tl;Dr I'm against paid perks that give faster connection, buy dragons, cool down on Bsa/kill, removing dead eggs. If paid perks come in, I won't QUIT but I wouldn't be buying. One because I can't. And two because DC did fine without perks. Look how people get upset over the little things here. Now imagine the drama when people can pay to get what they want.

I'm on a 150 Mbps connection. Still have awful lag.

And I do not think that anybody will be forced to buy a thing. Just personal choice, I assume.

Some people get upset just because they can. Some people get upset just reading about potential change, whatever change. Drama will happen anyway so I do not think that is enough to stop change.

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I think if users try to make it work, it can.

I agree! I think this kind of shift would inevitably change parts of DC, but if we strive to make it a positive transition it could be great.

 

I appreciate your outlook. smile.gif

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We're paying with money to get dragons, so does that mean we can pay other users money for offspring?

Most sites explicitly forbid this because it lets users undercut the site's own sales. If you pay money for babies from users then the site doesn't get anything. Besides on average second gen offspring are worth plenty less than their parents.

 

Compare second gen shimmers and third gen shimmers. How many third gen shimmers does it take to trade for a second gen? 100 or more?

 

Can you ever get a CB gold with 2g golds?

 

They're worth trash compared to their parents and not many people would want to pay other users money for offspring in the first place considering the incredibly low value.

Edited by DarkEternity

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I'd be fine for paid perks such as different themes or a badge like others have said before, but I am absolutely against paid perks that prioritize players on this site, allow getting/incubating/gendering an egg/dragon to be easier for paid versus unpaid on this site.

 

And an in-game currency is also an absolute no-no, whether it can be bought with real money or not. Hoarding money and dragons, hyperinflation (especially if the idea to fix the hoarding is just to make more money), "how much can I get for this dragon?" bid wars and contests among many other issues that would arise because of the new economy. It would be a mess. There are just too many problems with using a currency for it to be a valid option.

 

Showing support through donating, buying an ad-free membership, or buying something from the shop (which also helps support the artist so two birds one stone) is completely adequate.

 

As for internet connection speeds, even with a slower speed you can still get decent dragons through the AP or here on the forums. It's all about being in the right place at the right time.

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I look forward to expanding content/access and expanding merch and expanding whatever. TJ has been, from my perspective, really decent to excellent in directing this game. There are two main reasons I don't ever see this becoming a pay scam site:

 

1. DC is great Resume/Project Status for TJ. It's something unique that makes him very special that not many people can say they have done. If he turns it into a scam site, he throws away that prestige. Running DC might cost money, but it also has monetary benefits in other ways.

 

2. The Artists aren't going to continue to work for for a scam game. They are pretty clear that they like the general philosophy and culture about this game. Sure, people can be replaced, but that takes time and effort and I think everyone involved seems to like the team culture currently.

 

I would love to see whatever rolls out. If it doesn't go over well, TJ will likely retract it. He's done stuff before people weren't crazy over and either found another solution or reversed it. People complain they want to see more new stuff, more than just new dragon releases, and then an idea is mentioned and people freak out. There is no benefit to TJ to go about destroying this game. If he wanted to kill he, he could just turn it off... People are way too over reactive. I understand people are concerned as players. Many admins don't even ask. Besides, when TJ asks about stuff, it usually takes awhile to even come around and its generally in baby steps unless its some major coding fix that just has to happen.

 

I think we will be ok and be able to survive this, even together.

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I'm not for paid perks. I don't feel they're necessary and that any feature tied to them could be managed without the exchange of cash. If there's a paid fee to change your username, I'd rather it be free and either have a year long CD or be a one-time thing. The paid subscription for ad removal is fine by me, since it's easy to emulate the same benefits for free with browser addons. I see it as more of a donation jar with a negligible bonus attached, not a paid service.

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NO NO NO

games always get corrupt with paid perks

first it will be CB golds and prizes in the store no big deal right?

 

then store exclusive unbreedables uhhh ok a little annoying but ok

 

then next thing you know it becomes MMO level store where you can't do anything without forking over five or more dollars for a picture "game"

 

the day i spend MONEY on sprites is the day i am legally unable to handle my own funds

 

no offense to DC but i am completely against this

the freedom is what i love about the game

Edited by blockEdragon

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I'm okay with the idea of paid perks. No matter what they are, really.

 

I trust TJ will make good decisions not to 'ruin' this game with paid perks like a lot of people seem to think he might do, if it was implemented. 'Ruin' in quotes because, I don't see games being ruined by paid perks, because I can choose to live without the things they provide. It doesn't bother me whatsoever about who has what anymore, or economies or anything of the like. I enjoy games to the fullest extent of what I can do and if I feel it's worth extending that, then yeah, why not pay?

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I refuse to have any paid perks that affect actual gameplay like getting cb prizes or hms. Those are just dumb luck and I can live with it. But make it so if a person can pay for it, then it's actually going to become unfair. People with money to spare will rule the trade market and we're just now recovering from the whole mess prize breeding caused on it.

 

 

That said I'm not against paid perks for simple things like changing a username or buying old holiday minigames as someone said in the old thread.

Agreed.

 

However I would not make anything money-exclusive.

 

To save time yes, like people can get some sort of currency ingame AND with money, but not money only.

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I don't on principle mind paid perks (and I think the existing one with ad removal is a good example of a working paid perk). I wouldn't go as far as to say 'should not affect gameplay'. I am OK with borderline negligible effects on gameplay.

 

A game I used to play had the paid perk that your character wouldn't be deleted for inactivity. That was pretty fair. The game later added the option of describing a part of the world as a paid perk, which had a much steeper price tag, but again felt fair (the description didn't have an effect on gameplay, it just added some life to the world; the description was reviewed and not allowed if it clashed with lore and the site admin would talk to you about making changes before putting it up).

 

The principles behind that make me think Dragon Cave could work by making sure your names never expire for inactivity as a paid perk, for example. (I know they don't disappear just for that, but when/if the name stealing feature is active that could be a bonus.)

 

Trying to distill the principles, I'd say: Anything that would happen only due to truly prolonged inactivity can be offset with it (with "truly prolonged" I mean no paid perk will make it so your eggs don't die if you don't take care of them), and anything that adds customisation options that have no effect on gameplay.

 

I can't currently think of a really good Dragon Cave example for latter, since all description opportunities I can think of offhand are part of the gameplay here - dragon descriptions and encyclopaedia entries. Although maybe someone could describe a pixel on the map (though I have no idea how you'd access it, I don't think making it available via clicking is a good idea tongue.gif ... maybe a note about it at the top of the user's scroll with a link to the map with the pixel highlighted, and the description, IDK); the description would still go through normal review processes, I should add.

 

I don't feel strongly about this, though, in either direction. I just figure since "I don't feel strongly about this" tends to often be an under-represented opinion in discussion itself, I'd share my rambles. Grain of salt. smile.gif

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Actually, to be completely honest, Paid Perks would be totally fine. Go ahead and have a store with eggs or hatchlings or insta-grow or what have you, but as long as you keep it f2p friendly, I could care less. Other people dropping hot dollas into this IN NO WAY AFFECTS ME, so I really wouldn't care. Give them a badge then says "I paid!", and then you know if they spent time getting their things, or just bought them.

 

What people tend to forget is that this game isn't some hardcore PVP focused MMO, it's just a fun adoptable site where we collect dragons. You don't fight anyone, and interaction between players is limited, besides trading.

 

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