Jump to content
Sinclair

Ability to swap an unbred dragon's gender somehow

Recommended Posts

Quite simple. "You look closely at [insert dragon name or code here] and realize that is not male, as you previously thought. You quickly correct your notes about [insert dragon name or code here] and mark it as female." Depending on the gender, you'll need to swap male and female, though. biggrin.gif

Edited by olympe

Share this post


Link to post

Even if this feature were implemented, it wouldn't be any time soon, so I strongly suggest you take a week off from code grabbing and just raise a bunch of pinks. By the time the week is over you should have all you need. You shouldn't be relying on a 50% chance of a "gender-crucial" dragon coming out the wrong way when an influence is like 98% effective. :-)

Share this post


Link to post

As others have already made it clear, no paid perks, ever, no matter how long or short DC continues to exist.

 

In terms of gender swapping, I would have to agree with others and say just make it so influence doesn't fail. No point in it failing really. No extra additions, no new BSA with crazy cool down, just a no failure influence on already existing pinks.

Share this post


Link to post

No, no support. Take a couple of weeks and raise some pinks and your problem will be solved. rolleyes.gif

Share this post


Link to post

No paid perks. It seems like paid perks almost always consume websites like DC and gives it the "pay to win" feel.

 

I can support gender swaps, depending on how it is done, but paid perks is the worst way to go.

 

The only way I can see an acceptable form of gender swap, would be to have it through a BSA. I don't know what sort of BSA this would have to be for it to make sense (you might want it make it go along with olympe's post about the user not seeing the dragon correctly because physically changing the dragon might not be a good idea), but I think a BSA for this would be better than trying to implement a new feature.

Share this post


Link to post

Just make influence 100% instead of making a new bsa. Honestly I can't see any dragon that would fit for having a genderswap bsa.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, not because I care about adding paid perks, but because I'm genuinely curious about how people feel about this subject.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

Share this post


Link to post

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

I casually don't support paid features - I don't think this particular thing as a paid feature would be strictly an issue, since most of us just use regular Influence, but in general I'm opposed to the concept of "pay-to-win".

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

I have no problem with this either. There's no material advantage earned, and changing scrollname is kind of a niche need.

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

I guess this depends partly on what the currency is being used for, how easy it is to earn, and how much real money you spend. In general I would have no problem with this either, since free players aren't actually losing anything, it's just a convenience thing. But if the in-game currency is used for something significant (say, purchasing old CB holidays in the proposed store), has a relatively low value in itself (say, 10,000 DC$ for a dragon) and is hard to earn via in-game actions but cheap in terms of real money, I would be somewhat more unhappy about this since it becomes a real handicap for free players.

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

I would guess this is a combination of the "slippery slope" argument, a userbase that may not have a ton of money to spare, and perhaps some first-hand experience with f2p things becoming pay-to-win. Although of course I can't begin to speak for the userbase or even strictly for myself, since I have no particular aversion to exclusively paid features or paid features that excessively handicap the free players.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, this is not much different than "reset a refusal" pay fee.

When you get a particular dragon (let's say a 3rd gen shimmer) and the dragon gender wrong it can be really difficult to get another one, exactly the same situation when you get a difficult partner to one of your dragons (let's say a beautiful checkered line) and the dragon refuse. In such situations, pay to "solve the problem" it's an unfair advantage for the other players who can't pay for any reason (because they don't have international credit cards like myself, as example).

Share this post


Link to post

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, not because I care about adding paid perks, but because I'm genuinely curious about how people feel about this subject.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

Something like changing the gender of an adult, unbred dragon through a paid feature is not what I would consider to be pay to win, especially since we have influence.

I wouldn't consider changing your account name a pay to win feature either.

Neither of the above would really affect me at all. These changes would only affect the scroll owner.

 

Now, purchasing some sort of in-game currency would be pay to win. Since DC doesn't have a literal currency, this would be something like buying eggs, especially uncommon-rare eggs. Or maybe buying an egg slot. I would also consider buying things that affect growing dragons pay to win. If a user can go without ever raising a BSA dragon because they can just buy Influence or Incubate, I would consider them "winning" over the users that have to take the time to raise the BSA dragons.

 

If a DC paid perk system stayed far away from offering things that would give other users an advantage over others, then I wouldn't care if there was one or not simply because it would not really ever affect me.

 

 

ETA: Someone mentioned something about resetting a refusal, so I wanted to add that I would consider that being a pay to win feature, especially since non-paying users (currently) wouldn't have a way to reset a refusal.

Edited by Windnose

Share this post


Link to post

I used to play a game called 'Howrse'. It was fun at first and I liked the way the game ran, but the owners of the game started changing everything. They took away features, changed existing ones and the worst part was they increased the number of promos. These promos were events that had various games or competitions where you can win items and special horses. The promos took over the game and made it overwhelming. To top it off, in order to get anything 'good' out of the promos, you had to pay real money. There was also what's called a 'Pegasus account'. Basically you pay a subscription and you get VIP features. Furthermore, the 'special horses' that could be sold got so overpriced in terms of game money that you had no choice but to break out the credit card to get them. In the end it turned into a rich-kid's game. Free players got absolutely no where and it became hard to play. That's why I love DC. It's not rigged for those with money, it's fair, easy to play, fun, and the community is much nicer.

Share this post


Link to post
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, not because I care about adding paid perks, but because I'm genuinely curious about how people feel about this subject.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

I've always enjoyed a good devil's advocate debate, and I must say, you're very good at it. tongue.gif

You're right; there are quite a few games that can have small paid-for features without slipping into the dreaded pay-to-win. I think that people are mostly scared that, should any paid features be introduced, DC will lose the atmosphere that makes it special- the knowing that you will never have to pay anything but time to "win" here.

Specifically addressing the examples you gave- should somebody be so severely unhappy with their username they'd pay to change it, it would put them at no advantage over any other player. It wouldn't even affect any other players at all. As for paid currency... most games I've played use paid currency to handicap players until they pay or leave. There are a few that don't, but it is such a pain to deal with that I usually cringe away from games that have paid currency at all. It really all depends on what you can buy with it, however.

As for the OP itself, I would not be against this feature at all. It isn't pay-to-win, as we have influence, but it is a leg up for those with money to throw at an online game and could be met with resentment by players who don't have that money to spare. DC is well-known for its completely free gameplay, and I think that more than anything is why paid perks are frowned upon.

I'd love this should it be introduced as olympe suggested (hopefully for free, though).

Share this post


Link to post

I have received gifts that were too late to influence, either as lowtime eggs or hatchlings. The gender turned out wrong for any breeding I would want to do with them, and I would not dispose of them in any way, since they were gifts.

 

It would be wonderful to turn these misgendered dragons into breedable dragons. A BSA that allows them to transform would probably be the best way to handle this.

 

As for paid features, the advertising removal has always seemed like a legitimate paid feature, since the site does receive money from advertising. I don't think in-game features need to be paid, can't think of anything I would want that badly. Maybe a charge for changing a scroll or forum name would be reasonable, if it means that much to someone.

 

The one thing I would be interested in paying for are downloadable copies of some of the holiday events, especially the Gingerbread house and the Snow Fort. These were almost like pixel versions of Legos or Lincoln Logs to me, and the idea to be able to create and save an infinite variety of buildings and designs has always seemed like something I would enjoy when I want something to do offline. I missed the 2014 Christmas event, so I have no idea if it would be suitable, but this is the kind of thing that I would consider buying.

Share this post


Link to post

i came here to comment i'd love this option in a non-pay format, and stayed for the amazing conversation that happened. y'all are a great community :3

Share this post


Link to post

I have received gifts that were too late to influence, either as lowtime eggs or hatchlings. The gender turned out wrong for any breeding I would want to do with them, and I would not dispose of them in any way, since they were gifts.

 

It would be wonderful to turn these misgendered dragons into breedable dragons. A BSA that allows them to transform would probably be the best way to handle this.

 

As for paid features, the advertising removal has always seemed like a legitimate paid feature, since the site does receive money from advertising. I don't think in-game features need to be paid, can't think of anything I would want that badly. Maybe a charge for changing a scroll or forum name would be reasonable, if it means that much to someone.

 

The one thing I would be interested in paying for are downloadable copies of some of the holiday events, especially the Gingerbread house and the Snow Fort. These were almost like pixel versions of Legos or Lincoln Logs to me, and the idea to be able to create and save an infinite variety of buildings and designs has always seemed like something I would enjoy when I want something to do offline. I missed the 2014 Christmas event, so I have no idea if it would be suitable, but this is the kind of thing that I would consider buying.

My opinions are the same as yours.

 

If someone really wants to change their username that badly then sure throw a couple bucks in to do so. It doesn't put any others at a even mild disadvantage.

 

But having in-game features cost money, real or virtual is something I can't stand. Virtual is even worse than real money because it almost always goes to the extremes of either scarcity or inflation within the game. Just look at neopets.

 

I'm fine with being able to purchase the mini games for cash because they don't affect site gameplay.

Edited by RecycledHeart

Share this post


Link to post

I'm aware that my opinions on "pay to win" are far from popular so, in general, I avoid to express them. Tar and feathers aren't favorites of mine. Rotten eggs and tomatoes aren't either.

First of all, some of us are already paying to win. We do not pay TJ. But if we can afford to build (or buy) killer gaming workstations and/or to use a fiber connection (courtesy of our wallet or employer), we have a significant advantage. Once we can catch whatever the trading market is asking for, that advantage is quite significant.

On top of that, I must admit that I happily spend quite a nice amount of my earned money on gaming-related stuff. Actually DC is an exception since, for other games, I always expect to spend money to play. All things considered, playing on the Internet is not a bare necessity, is it? I would go as far as considering it a luxury.

So, based on what I said above, if TJ was to introduce "paid features", I would happily pay.

Not only. Let's assume that there is consensus on several features people have been asking for. Let's assume that TJ is too busy to implement those features and would need to engage (and pay) someone else. Well, I would happily contribute to that implementation fund.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

The problem of adding "just a few small pay-to-get features, is that once you start with the little ones, it becomes "well, this feature wouldn't be that bad to pay for" and then "how about this one?" and so on. Each little pay perk will cause an exponential reasoning for more pay perks, and as the general mind-set accepts these, next thing you know, you've got pay perks that only people with rich scrolls (like mine) can get, and so on.

 

Pay perks are not fair. Adding any kind of pay for perk would eventually destroy the DC we all have now and love.

 

How do I know this will happen?? Well, kids, I am 50 years old. I've been playing internet games since the mid 1990's when it all exploded. I've seen this happen over and over and over again, to sites that came and went before many of you learned to read. It WILL happen if pay perks of any kind are allowed. I guarantee it.

 

TJ, if people want to change their cave name or forum name so badly, just let them, ok? Make it that they need to be members for a specific amount of time, or some other rule, but don't be so obstinate about a few "small changes".

 

No pay perks. NONE! This site is one of the best I've seen in all my years of internet playing. It ain't broke. Don't "fix" it.

Edited by Riverwillows

Share this post


Link to post

The problem of adding "just a few small pay-to-get features, is that once you start with the little ones, it becomes "well, this feature wouldn't be that bad to pay for" and then "how about this one?" and so on. Each little pay perk will cause an exponential reasoning for more pay perks, and as the general mind-set accepts these, next thing you know, you've got pay perks that only people with rich scrolls (like mine) can get, and so on.

 

Pay perks are not fair. Adding any kind of pay for perk would eventually destroy the DC we all have now and love.

Out of curiosity, how are "pay perks that only people with rich scrolls LIKE YOURS can get" not fair?

And do you mind explaining how those perks, like the ones you can get, would destroy DC?

 

Edit: or, are you referencing the perks obtained thanks to the I-got-lucky-raffle, allowing the lucky ones to do zero and obtain whatever they wish for?

Edited by SullenCat

Share this post


Link to post
The problem of adding "just a few small pay-to-get features, is that once you start with the little ones, it becomes "well, this feature wouldn't be that bad to pay for" and then "how about this one?" and so on. Each little pay perk will cause an exponential reasoning for more pay perks, and as the general mind-set accepts these, next thing you know, you've got pay perks that only people with rich scrolls (like mine) can get, and so on.

 

Pay perks are not fair. Adding any kind of pay for perk would eventually destroy the DC we all have now and love.

 

How do I know this will happen?? Well, kids, I am 50 years old. I've been playing internet games since the mid 1990's when it all exploded. I've seen this happen over and over and over again, to sites that came and went before many of you learned to read. It WILL happen if pay perks of any kind are allowed. I guarantee it.

 

TJ, if people want to change their cave name or forum name so badly, just let them, ok? Make it that they need to be members for a specific amount of time, or some other rule, but don't be so obstinate about a few "small changes".

 

No pay perks. NONE! This site is one of the best I've seen in all my years of internet playing. It ain't broke. Don't "fix" it.

TJ said himself he was playing devil's advocate- his post doesn't explicitly mean he's going to implement those paid perks. Also, you may have seen game upon game slide down that path, but you are using a slippery slope argument. It is entirely possible for a game to exist with a few pay-for options without it being destroyed or money consuming the game. That's what TJ's point was.

Share this post


Link to post
I'm going to play devil's advocate here, not because I care about adding paid perks, but because I'm genuinely curious about how people feel about this subject.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

Here's my view.

If you keep a few perks and don't go overboard with this, i'm okay.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Out of curiosity, how are "pay perks that only people with rich scrolls LIKE YOURS can get" not fair?

And do you mind explaining how those perks, like the ones you can get, would destroy DC?

 

Edit: or, are you referencing the perks obtained thanks to the I-got-lucky-raffle, allowing the lucky ones to do zero and obtain whatever they wish for?

They don't mean unfair for them; their argument is for the (presumed) majority of DC's players.

Share this post


Link to post

Out of curiosity, how are "pay perks that only people with rich scrolls LIKE YOURS can get" not fair?

And do you mind explaining how those perks, like the ones you can get,  would destroy DC?

Hmmm...well lets see. I have many shimmers, tinsels and CB metals. Say one of the eventual perks ends up that I can get CB Shimmers if I offer so many 2nd gen metals or other hard to get eggies.

 

I now have lots of CB shims, and I can charge a lot for babies cause people will pay it, but it slants the game towards those that "have" as opposed to those that don't. It's kind of like that already but at least there is more of a chance right now for 'have-nots' to get something good.

 

It could interfere with ratios. Part of the whole adventure is learning to deal with the disappointments of the game. It enourages quick thinking, reasoning, and problem solving. Take those away, as features anyone can 'pay' for and the game loses its wonderful challenge.

 

The Dragon Cave we have now will be gone.

 

 

Edit: I may be considered "rich" but it took years to get my scroll to where it is now. It was fun, all the anticipation, disappointments, and work-arounds, and others should have all that too. But if you can buy your way in, why bother playing at all??

 

And I anticipate that the 'pay perks' idea will be real popular with the newer players or those that don't have, cause they they WILL have.....but honestly folks, you don't understand how that will eventually cause DC to become not DC. I can't explain it anymore.

Edited by Riverwillows

Share this post


Link to post

I totally support having paid for options. Especially for meaningless or less meaningful things, but I wouldn't mind even a very slightly meaningful thing. I think TJ has made it pretty clear that this site was always intended to be a free to play where money doesn't make you win game concept. I don't think there is going to be any change in that. And I think that is one of the reasons a lot of the artists are willing to do their art for no charge because it always has been, and by various other comments, will likely always be a free to play site.

 

But I also like the idea of donating and getting some perk, or to allow some kind of technical change that would be a bit of a pain for TJ to be flooded with requests, but as a donation perk buffer for that to be done - I'm totally down with that. It's one of the reasons the "no ads" option works really well. I'd love to have an option to change a forum or scroll name as a donation or pay perk. Or a symbol next to my forum name or anything. I am always down with these ideas. I get that a lot of you don't want a "pay to win" game. I like that this is really the philosophy of the game and play it for that reason. It doesn't feel like a scam. But as an adult who makes a living that supports herself, I believe in also paying for what I use. I may not want to pay a ton for it, but I personally want to pay something when I am able. Why can't I have a small meaningless or almost meaningless thing for that? I understand people should want to donate to the game, but I don't mind incentives that aren't "game winning or altering" changes.

 

I am totally cool with the idea of paying for equip and running costs of this business, but I'm also ok with TJ buying a house, or artists or mods getting a small holiday bonus, or something like that. Because ... I believe in freeware and shareware and I veiw this as the same. I also like to donate to causes I believe in. To me, this is a cause I believe in. It may not be a non-profit, but if I can give something back to those who make it happen, and have the ability to do so, I want to do this.

 

I played a game for a long time that ... didn't have quite the market that some of the large Multiplayer games have, but it had one. And I bought and sold stuff myself. But I didn't really like it. Because it was pretty obvious that the game existed as a way to wring money out of people and it felt a lot more like drug addiction and dealers. And I don't like that feeling ever. But ... I am here because this place isn't that, but that doesn't mean it needs to be free for everything at all times. I believe in the old standard of rewarding people for their hard work. I don't expect everyone to do it, and its nice its not required, but I still want to give back.

 

Why can't I have an option that doesn't mean much back as a thank you for that if I want it? Almost all charities offer this and people often take advantage of those. If you want to gift without recognition I think that's fantastic. But having those drives where you give goofy mugs and tote bags also reminds people, Oh Yah, I do need to consider giving again because I really do use that and want it to continue to be available. Especially for people who can't afford to pay. It's not a guilt thing. Its just how fundraising is done to continue and better what is available. Robots don't yet run this game, and even if they do, someone has to pay for their power source and upkeep. Even if ads pay for most of it. I still want to give back too. Fundraising works the way it works because of goofy perks sometimes. Why not? I don't like this particular suggestion, but I have plenty of others I'd like to see.

Share this post


Link to post
They don't mean unfair for them; their argument is for the (presumed) majority of DC's players.

I must disagree on the "presumed" part. Sounds quite egocentric instead.

Share this post


Link to post

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, not because I care about adding paid perks, but because I'm genuinely curious about how people feel about this subject.

 

How (in)significant does something have to be before it falls under being "pay to win?" Consider this thread: what benefit does changing an adult dragon's gender confer? Given that you can already influence, its only use is that it allows one to make the gender decision later on, or correct for a failed influence (which, when you consider that there's a 50% chance the egg is already the gender you want, influence is pretty unlikely to fail). So, is bypassing that failure chance "pay to win?" What are you really "winning" that other people aren't?

 

What about something that doesn't affect your dragons? For example, if someone could pay money to change their account's username (the payment acting as some sort of a barrier to discourage "abusing" the feature). Is that "pay to win?" Is that giving some people a material advantage over others?

 

Now, what about a "paid currency" system (that is, you can either earn some "currency" through playing the game, or buy some directly)? Now, there is no feature that can only be accessed through money; the only gain is that you trade money for time saved. Is that still "pay to win?" Is that still the "worst way to go?"

 

I ask these things because there seems to be a complete and utter aversion to money whatsoever; an assumption that "pay to win" is the inevitable outcome, but I've seen plenty of successful free-to-play models that don't shaft people without money, so there seems to be a gap in understanding somewhere.

I don't mind if there are things to be paid for. I'm surprised there aren't more things beyond ad removal. I've paid for no ads before. I can see people paying for username changes or even extra egg slots. This particular suggestion seems odd because we already have a free feature to address the problem.

 

 

Edited by Jazeki

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.