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[Suggestion] More Hybrid Releases?

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I am unaware of any on-site dragons whose ideas were not the product of the at least one of artists who created the image, either in full or part. Is this an issue that has actually lead to conflict in the past?

Brute Dragons:

Concept was by Stromboli, art by LadyLyzar. Stromboli has no credit:

http://dragcave.net/view/ZO6mH

 

I don't know if its lead to "conflict", but its a shame Stromboli got no credit for creating the concept behind the dragon.

 

I think Walker and the Shadow Walkers are another? And I know there are at least a couple more. However, Stromboli is always happy about the Brutes and talks about it, so I remembered that she was the conceptor, and as you can see in the linked adult.... No credit.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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I know 100% for certain we have at least one, and the fact that I cant tell you which dragon or who the conceptor was further proves the point, I suppose. Fevers would have been one too if the OP hadnt have passed the concept thread over to me. I'm still looking for the person who made the original thread. ETA: Yesss, thank you, Cyradis, that's who I was thinking of!

Edited by ParticleSoup

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Why can't conceptors get credit as well? Doesn't tj realize how unfair it is?

I think the question was where to draw the line. Is anyone who contributed grammar editing included? Just the OP? Or also include people who actively discussed the dragon? Or just those who suggested ideas that made it into the final concept?

 

And remember, back a few years ago, Dragon Requests requirements for the OP was a LOT looser than it is now. You'd get posts like, "wouldn't it be nice to have a fire dragon?" for the OP, and not much else from said OP.

 

Personally, I think just the OP, unless the OP decides to give credit to someone else in addition to themselves, as additional conceptors.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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I think the question was where to draw the line. Is anyone who contributed grammar editing included? Just the OP? Or also include people who actively discussed the dragon? Or just those who suggested ideas that made it into the final concept?

 

And remember, back a few years ago, Dragon Requests requirements for the OP was a LOT looser than it is now. You'd get posts like, "wouldn't it be nice to have a fire dragon?" for the OP, and not much else from said OP.

 

Personally, I think just the OP, unless the OP decides to give credit to someone else in addition to themselves, as additional conceptors.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I agree with you about the op getting credit. We should probably discuss this at the other topic sock provided.

 

Anyways I would love more hybrids but there simply just aren't enough of them for tj to choose imo.

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IMO if you want more hybrids this sort of thread is not the way to do it. Go talk to some spriters, get permission, and then go to DR and make your own hybrid DR requests. IMO that is much more likely to get results. If you add several new hybrids to the Completed List that gives TJ that much more selection and raises the odds that he will choose to participate.

 

And BTW, if you've been playing more than a year, you were around for a hybrid release - the Avatars are hybrids. smile.gif

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IMO if you want more hybrids this sort of thread is not the way to do it. Go talk to some spriters, get permission, and then go to DR and make your own hybrid DR requests. IMO that is much more likely to get results. If you add several new hybrids to the Completed List that gives TJ that much more selection and raises the odds that he will choose to participate.

 

And BTW, if you've been playing more than a year, you were around for a hybrid release - the Avatars are hybrids. smile.gif

I wouldn't consider Avatars a typical hybrid, because Guardians of Nature are so limited.

 

And making new dragon requests is all very well and nice, but.... Contacting a lot of the artists can be difficult. So often, its best not to start with "what dragons would I love to hybridize" and more a matter of "what artists are around / have shown a willingness to let hybrids be".

 

Cheers!

C4.

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And making new dragon requests is all very well and nice, but.... Contacting a lot of the artists can be difficult. So often, its best not to start with "what dragons would I love to hybridize" and more a matter of "what artists are around / have shown a willingness to let hybrids be".

 

Cheers!

C4.

I wonder if it would be possible/feasible to have the artists officially contacted and give their expressed wishes as to whether hybrids are allowed with their dragons, so we could have an "officially approved to hybridize" list sticky thread. That way their general wishes are known even if they don't frequent the forum/site anymore.

 

This would of course have to include a range of responses, since some wouldn't necessarily have a yes/no answer for each of their dragons. However, since they'd be able to give us a way for contact if the answer is conditional, conceptors would have an easier time tracking down the appropriate artist(s) and getting a timely response.

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The thing is that a blanket permission on a breed wouldnt work because what if the concept for that hybrid just doesnt work well with it despite it being allowed and the artist/conceptor got uncomfortable with that. If they stopped it there would be an issue of "Well it said this breed was okay to hybrid so you can't say no" and what not.

 

I think a simple matter of artists having a clear statement on the artist permission's thread or whatever it called stating "Hybrids are okay no contact needed" or "Hybrids should be run by me first" or "No hybrids please don not PM about it as I will decline" to give users a clear idea of what artist is okay with what dragon being a hybrid.

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The thing is that a blanket permission on a breed wouldnt work because what if the concept for that hybrid just doesnt work well with it despite it being allowed and the artist/conceptor got uncomfortable with that. If they stopped it there would be an issue of "Well it said this breed was okay to hybrid so you can't say no" and what not.

 

I think a simple matter of artists having a clear statement on the artist permission's thread or whatever it called stating "Hybrids are okay no contact needed" or "Hybrids should be run by me first" or "No hybrids please don not PM about it as I will decline" to give users a clear idea of what artist is okay with what dragon being a hybrid.

That's what I said. >..>

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Oh it sounded more like you wanted each artist to say like "Oh breed y is okay to make hybrids but I dont want breed z to have hybrids" Rather that artists saying all hybrid concepts be seen by them before posted or something because once concept may not fit the breed well despite the artist being okay with hybrids being a thing of their dragons.

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[/b]IMO if you want more hybrids this sort of thread is not the way to do it.[/b]

 

Go talk to some spriters, get permission, and then go to DR and make your own hybrid DR requests. IMO that is much more likely to get results.

 

If you add several new hybrids to the Completed List that gives TJ that much more selection and raises the odds that he will choose to participate.

 

And BTW, if you've been playing more than a year, you were around for a hybrid release - the Avatars are hybrids. smile.gif

 

 

I think the thread is a good step to bring this out into discussion, imo and to judge how the community feels about it. But so far it's mostly "ehhh if spriter says no then we can't use this hybrid". I was really hoping on having some discussion about a few things I pointed out earlier and what I get from this post is, "You just want more hybrids cause you must love hybrids". That's really not the case here and there was some more thoughts that I came up with and if adding more hybrids would be healthy for DC. The post is somewhere on 2nd page, go read it please.

 

How is that going to get results? Are you promising me that if I go make one and it's in completed it's going to be released immediately? I already have one concept up (not a hybrid) and making more when I have limited time isn't a good thing for the spriter(s) that would be involved. I just simply don't have time for it atm and creating more would be a little irresponsible on my part and asking for trouble.

 

We've already established this and the fact there could even be some more besides in the completed requests by Particle's post, but for the sake of this argument let's not include what they said so we have a more exact number later.

 

Oh I forgot about the avatars. You see what makes them different from the hybrids in game is nearly any dragon you breed with a GoN makes either 3, when with hybrids before those you could only breed 2 species together and produce said hybrid, some even had 3 species that can make it. Not to mention those hybrids had species you could catch in-cave (commons) and wasn't limited to something, idk, a summon. I don't think that's really a typical hybrid and the implementation of those hybrids weren't really healthy for DC, imo. I won't get into further details on that because that'll open up a whole different can of worms (the healthy part) that won't be related to this thread. >_>;

 

 

 

 

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Oh it sounded more like you wanted each artist to say like "Oh breed y is okay to make hybrids but I dont want breed z to have hybrids" Rather that artists saying all hybrid concepts be seen by them before posted or something because once concept may not fit the breed well despite the artist being okay with hybrids being a thing of their dragons.

 

Nah. I'm sure while some would be okay with a blanket "yes" or "no" for a breed, others would want to make sure that potential hybrids fit their vision, or would only allow a hybrid in a very particular set of circumstances, which is what I meant by having a conditional response (with contact info).

Edited by Kith

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Went back to Completed forums and CTRL + F "Biome", "Hybrid", "Permission" in the first page per thread. Biome was the first thing to CTRL + F because it meant it most likely wasn't a hybrid. If it didn't have either 3 in the OP I just read the OP instead to check it out.

 

Anyways I only found 8 so yeah there's a shortage, but one out of those 8 that had a little strange thing was that I found out even though it was a hybrid it could still be found in two biomes (in thread title and OP it clearly stated it was a hybrid). I'll have to read up on that later and also check out if all 8 have permission from artists (also it seemed like while I was searching a couple spriters had said they've been privately making hybrids, but again we'll just say we only have 8 currently).

 

But yeah I'll go check up if they have permission. :3 I'll check out the current Dragon requests too.

 

 

 

ETA: Whoa how did I miss Olympe's post? Are those all from the Completed Section/combo(with DR) by chance? I noticed the Azures in completed, but didn't see that they said Hybrids (unless those are another Azure or I just suck at finding hybrids o_o).

Edited by Saynna

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Olympes post is hyrids she saw along with breeds that could potentially be hybrids.

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Yes, I did compile a list of dragons (with the starting letters A, B and C only) that might work out as hybrids. They definitely weren't created with the intention of being hybrids.

 

@Olympe: you missed Sunbursts, which were a blusang x sunsong hybrid last I knew.

Not really - they start with S, after all. I didn't get that far down the list. wink.gif

 

I am unaware of any on-site dragons whose ideas were not the product of the at least one of artists who created the image, either in full or part. Is this an issue that has actually lead to conflict in the past?

The thing is - the vision of the dragon breed, its special traits - including personality traits - come from the conceptor. As a matter of fact, the whole dragon concept of a breed is the conceptor's original work. So it should be the conceptor who decides whether their dragon concept might work as a hybrid, or whether their concept can have hybrid offspring (if at all).

 

Personally, though, I think that nobody should be able to prohibit someone from creating a hybrid involving their breed. A dragon breed is not the same as an original character from any kind of role play, but consists of hundreds, thousands or more individuals. And who is to say that every single individual fits the mold of the breed perfectly and would never ever ever think of breeding with a member of another breed?* (Actually, TJ has a very firm stand on this: Every regular dragon can breed with any other regular dragon, barring random refusals. Or holiday x holiday breedings out of season. Every drake can breed with every other drake, barring random refusals. Same for pygmies and two-headeds.) And if they do interbreed with other dragon breeds, there is the potential for creating a hybrid - if such a hybrid concept exists and got released in the cave.

 

*We have examples in fantasy literature - of good drow/dark elves, chaotic dwarves, dwarf druids, lawful or even evil elves and who knows what else. Neither of them fit the mold of their breed, and yet, we don't see anybody protest about these characters. I'm sure there are similar things happening with alien races in SciFi literature, too - but I wouldn't know abou that.

 

The artist - unless artist and conceptor are the same person - had no hand in fleshing out the concept, "only" the sprite. So, the artwork is the artist's original work. Since the sprite (= the artist's work) isn't affected by the concept being a hybrid or being able to have hybrid offspring, I don't see why it should be the artist who gets to say yay or nay. They already get all their due - in-site credit, the ability to say what happens to their art (regarding fanart, merchandise, off-site use, on-site use for banners and the like, recolors, cropping/mirroring...), there's no need to give artists rights that, by any right, belong to the coneptors.

Edited by olympe

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The artist - unless artist and conceptor are the same person - had no hand in fleshing out the concept, "only" the sprite. So, the artwork is the artist's original work. Since the sprite (= the artist's work) isn't affected by the concept being a hybrid or being able to have hybrid offspring, I don't see why it should be the artist who gets to say yay or nay. They already get all their due - in-site credit, the ability to say what happens to their art (regarding fanart, merchandise, off-site use, on-site use for banners and the like, recolors, cropping/mirroring...), there's no need to give artists rights that, by any right, belong to the coneptors.

Olympe, I agree completely. That's why I think that the art usage form should be updated to include who made the concept of the dragon (if known) and whether that person approves of use as a hybrid species, so if there is a dispute between what one party wants and the other wants, it can be settled with the concept artist's stance (unless the concept artist gives over rights to the artist or they share the project completely, like the certain holiday releases).

 

 

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i think it would be really cool to have a silver X gold hybrid

 

"this metallic egg gives off a beautiful golden glow"

 

i mean it would be really rare and everyone would want one because if that

where talking rare here

what are the odds of them actually breeding then the odds of them actually producing a egg then the odds of a hybrid that alone would get people going

 

and also a royal blue nebula hybrid because its stated that those two get along really well so it would be a cool Easter egg

 

"this egg gives off a brilliant radiance in the moonlight"

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I'm very much against rare x rare hybrids. Most people cannot get them as CB in any kind of quantity, which makes breeding projects very much impossible - unless you have at least one of each metallic as CB and manage to swap - barring refusals.

 

Overall, it doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

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What I think about hybrids?

Personally, I'm not fond of hybrids, for the sole reason that they can only be had by crossing certain breeds, which means that I can't make precisely the lineages I want with them (I have the same beef with pygmies, drakes and two-headeds as it is right now.).

But, if hybrids adds something to the game, something that players in general favor, then go for it.

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To be honest, I do like the hybrid sprites we've got (the soulpeace being my least favorite), but I don't want any more hybrids. They put a limit to lineage building, making it even harder to get the egg you want. It's nothing like drakes or even alts. Drakes can only breed with other drakes. Alts are so rare they are desirable enough. If I'm trying to build a lineage with white and daydream and all I'm getting are soulpeace dragons, I'm probably going to completely give up.

 

BTW, that's a beautiful lineage I haven't seen in a while, a checker with white and daydreams. I guess people don't think it's worth the effort any more.

 

The thing is, hybrids don't have much use in lineages at all, and could potentially ruin some very beautiful, hard worked on lineages. I think they are aswesome as a curiosity, but we should leave it at that.

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If I'm trying to build a lineage with white and daydream and all I'm getting are soulpeace dragons, I'm probably going to completely give up.

 

BTW, that's a beautiful lineage I haven't seen in a while, a checker with white and daydreams. I guess people don't think it's worth the effort any more.

 

The thing is, hybrids don't have much use in lineages at all, and could potentially ruin some very beautiful, hard worked on lineages. I think they are aswesome as a curiosity, but we should leave it at that.

laugh.gifhttp://dragcave.net/lineage/lJ2Gg

That is exactly why I started this lineage. I started seeing floods of White and Daydream second gens in the AP, failed attempts to get a SoulPeace. It can be frustrating, but I find it a challenge. This is exactly half of the planned lineage. The other half keeps giving me SoulPeaces or wrong breeds, but eventually I will win!

 

And I have also worked on some beautiful lineages with hybrids. They can never be "perfect" checkers, but there is a lot that you can do with them.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing more. They make for a much more relaxed release, since you know you don't have to give them scroll space immediately, but can collect them later when you have room.

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Yes to hybrid lineages - I am planning one right now. And yes to that wonderful sense of relief - "it can wait; I don't have to dump anything !"

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Yes to hybrid lineages - I am planning one right now. And yes to that wonderful sense of relief - "it can wait; I don't have to dump anything !"

Here here!

 

I find that I enjoy releases that have 1 hybrid and 1 normal more, because I *only* have 1 breed I need right then. And I can take my time for the hybrids, which gives more stuff to do in the time between releases.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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