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[Suggestion] More Hybrid Releases?

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Bleh, after spending all this time trying to type a response I'm just gonna say forget it lol. I really don't want to argue this though I still have the right to an opinion regardless of what the copyright laws here are :/ Edited by Slater_C

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I love you Ace <3 I think Jazeki kind of answered it for you though X3

 

I will also give that in the end the sprites eventually just become TJ's propperty since I'm sure that in the agreement one gives up the rights to said art in exchange for credit on the site so that users know who made the art. Technically that gives him the right to use the art as he sees fit within the site.

 

Also more hybrids please. I think people are afraid to make any because of this issue, that artists may say no and they feel that because they said no they have to stop which is not the case. If one does not want the art used for hybrids I think its safe to negotiate that with TJ and add in a note within the artist info thing to make it clear that hybrids are a no no. That was there is a clear message stating that one is uncomfortable with/against that.

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Anano is right. I think a lot of the hesitation/confusion with creating hybrids could be alleviated if the art usage form was updated to include an area to indicate whether the artist/ creator agreed to allow their dragons to be used as hybrid species.

 

The pillow hybrid concept came to a halt because the spriter was uncomfortable with the pillow being used and then the OP didn't want to proceed from there without serious revamping.

 

(Also, Ace, I was saying you would be well within your rights to say no to an OC lovechild, but that the dragons on here aren't quite the same as lovechildren.)

Edited by Jazeki

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Another thing to point out is that this wasn't made because I like hybrids (yes I do like them, but not the reason why it's made). The reason was after seeing threads like the Gold one and how people commented on how bad biome movement was and old discussion where a smaller group of players would prefer DC to slow down on the releases (Tbh I was one of them) I thought this was a nice idea about going about both. This could make biome movement a little bit faster if we incorporate around 2-3 per release meaning a potential 6 different breeds for all to hunt in biomes specifically if they wanted better chances of getting the hybrid. Especially if they planned on making a PB with no inbreeding. Getting onto the "slow down releases" I think the reason why most want this is because they don't want to consistently hunt every month for a couple of dragons (even though it could take only minutes) since they can be pretty busy IRL, especially now that releases are not on a set date. With this you don't have to worry and all you have to do is just read and eventually there's going to be a confirmed pairing. You can argue that not everyone uses the forum, but now that there's a hotbar titled "Recent News" I think seeing "(Insert month release here)" would intrigue them enough to click it and see what it's about.

 

Also addressing one of the cons I wrote about newer players. There's a lot of gifting threads and I'm sure that they'll be able to be included as well. Especially players that have hoards of the dragons that make the hybrid.

 

Just a few things I wanted to point out more to get discussion rolling :v

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I don't think all sprite artists would be comfortable with blanket "permission" for making hybrids. Sometimes it depends on what the hybrid is that is being suggested.

 

I'm ok with the idea of hybrids of whatever dragons of mine ever get released. I like hybrids. I'd want to see them though and see how the suggestion specifically relates to the breed I created. If someone came up with a suggestion and said "it's a hybrid of coppers and X" and I can see no relation to coppers in the coloring, the build of the dragon or it's character I guess I'd object to that concept. (which isn't to say they'd "have" to stop, or that I wouldn't make suggestions about making it relate better)

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You may love me but you misinterpret me tongue.gif I never once was arguing with any actual copyright laws here - just stating opinion based on my (and sometimes incorrect, not gonna lie) observations and best understanding of things in DC forums and saying it was concerning to me and that I didn't agree with it while trying to offer an example of what the situation of a hybrid was like (to me, it doesn't have to apply to y'all) and how I personally would react in such a situation. I am not an ic spriter so I don't know what the terms are in the end.

 

If Jazeki is right, that's fine! If that's the way it is here that's fine too - I still reserve the right to not like it lol, that's all I'm saying.

 

Edit: Yes, I understand that it's not the same thing as a lovechild and in light of my new understanding that all rights probably go to TJ anyway it seems like it's up to him in the end. You know what I'm gonna stop posting outside of DR because I hate confrontation and making an idiot of myself lmao because clearly I cannot articulate what I mean 99% of the time ffff.

I admit that I my self may also have wrong observation and as with anything, everyone reserveres the right to dislike or go against something should it particularly apply to them. So should you sprite a dragon you are fully allowed to negotiate with TJ the use of Hybrids and have it specified under your artist information that Hybrids should first be run by you so you can either approve and help the suggestion your self or decline the use of your sprite in said manner.

 

I think my above statement also fits in to your post Fiona :3

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Saynna, I understand completely. I hope for hybrids every month and if any of my concepts ever get released, I hope they are used for hybrids. I like them. But I think (as Odeen and others) pointed out, there is a lot of confusion and extra steps that need to be taken to make a hybrid dragon in concept form and once they are released. So that's why there aren't as many.

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Didn't Sock say that while you may not need permission, if the artist/creator of one dragon says no then the hybrid cannot be made?

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Permission isn't required, but if an artist does happen to say no, that does mean the concept can't move ahead.

She said does mean, not doesn't mean.

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Yep

 

Permission isn't required, but if an artist does happen to say no, that does mean the concept can't move ahead.

 

Which is why it would be a good idea to have that information a bit more handy so one doesnt have to go guessing whether a sprite artist will be okay with hybrids or not. Having them state right away that contact should be priority for a Hybrid would be better. It would also be nice if something was enforced to say that users should then be required to obtain permission.

 

Whats the point of saying, "oh you dont need permission" when the artist will be allowed to halt the concept if they don't want their breed involved? instead it should be clearly stated that artist permission is required and a time limit for an artist to decline their breed being used in said concept.

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Didn't Sock say that while you may not need permission, if the artist/creator of one dragon says no then the hybrid cannot be made?

I would have to check if the hybrids in completed had permission to make hybrid of the said dragons, which would take awhile if they don't include "yes I have permission" in OP. But anyways even if they said no the suggestion is about "implementing" more hybrids into DC in-game. As Sock has confirmed she hasn't tagged all the hybrids so there should be more a bit more than 3 on hand (at least I'd think so). I would also assume there are a handful of them that already has permission from the spriters. I'll have to count them up tomorrow since it's pretty late here.

 

Assuming there will always be 12 releases on DC, 3 of them are confirmed holidays (yes I know there was a time we didn't have a monthly release). This leaves for 9 other releases. I think it'd be really healthy for DC to include 3 monthly hybrid-centered releases that way everyone can sort of recuperate from all the other previous regular releases (would leave 6). So the breakdown would be:

 

3 Holidays, 3 Hybrids, and 6 Regulars (which would be either two-heads, pygmy, western, eastern, etc)

 

 

Yes this suggestion is based on the fact that we need hybrids to be made in dragon requests. If we don't have that many TJ can run out which I don't see why it would be a bad thing. It just means we need more suggested to be made. I think people would even suggest/create ideas on hybrids after knowing there's a shortage of them in the Completed Requests if TJ ever favored this suggestion. Because who wouldn't love to see their concept in DC?

 

 

What I'm trying to say is, so what if the spriters say no? Yeah it means that we can't use it then just move on to the next. If there's no next just wait for one to be made with permission and continue the process. Also if there really is a shortage in Complete request I'd like to trim it down to at max 2 hybrids per hybrid-centered release instead of 3. :3 I think that'd be a little bit better.

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What I'm trying to say is, so what if the spriters say no? Yeah it means that we can't use it then just move on to the next. If there's no next just wait for one to be made with permission and continue the process. Also if there really is a shortage in Complete request I'd like to trim it down to at max 2 hybrids per hybrid-centered release instead of 3. :3 I think that'd be a little bit better.

This ties in with the fact that some clear information has to be said. Permision is required so always ask before you start a hybrid concept to ensure the conceptor/artist is alright with it. Mods should remind users of this always to ensure that a hybrid suggestion can go smoothly without any issues or sudden halts (like the pillow dragon x daydream hybrid). Artists should specifically state whether they are comfortable having their art/concepts used as part of a hybrid and whether to be contacted about it for permission or simply for courtesy in case they allow their dragon to be part of it. This will ensure that hybrid concepts go along smoothly and that more are created to help fulfill any hybrid releases.

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Hybrids are also made privately, so what's on the completed list out in the open isn't all that TJ has to choose from at least.

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^ This is a good breakdown.

Permission isn't required, but if an artist does happen to say no, that does mean the concept can't move ahead.

 

(And yes, the hybrid tagging system on the completed list is fairly new. I haven't had time to go back and re-tag hybrids or concepts with multiple biomes, though.)

 

To get back on subject, though, I do love hybrids. I wouldn't mind more releases of hybrids, but I think TJ already takes into account the different types of dragons and releasing a little of everything. xP

Sorry Sock, but I have to disagree with your basic premise. If an artist can stop a project with a "no", then YES, permission is clearly required. Oh, you can quibble and say if they don't respond in x time, you can go forward. But if *even after that 30 days* they can stop the project, then that, to me, means the only way you can go forward with confidence is to get positive conformation from them.

 

I think that needs to be stated up front. I know I would NOT work on a hybrid concept unless I knew I had artist permission if they can stop the project with a no. Why waste the effort if they can stop it in its tracks?

 

 

Having said that, I'd love a hybrid that was common to breed but was a rare drop in the Cave. I think that was suggested at one point, but TJ nixed it? I'd also love to see more hybrids in general.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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The problem I see with hybrids is that people usually don't suggest them not only due to being intimidated by the whole "getting permission" business, but also because so very few hybrids get released. If TJ starts releasing hybrids more regularly, people would probably suggest more of them because the chance of the concept being released gets improved.

 

That being said, we have a number of older concepts on the completed list that either are meant to be hybrids or could easily be made into them - provided the conceptor agrees. After all, it's the conceptor's vision of the breed that gets altered, not the sprite in and of itself. Since conceptors who aren't also artists don't have any say on DC anyway, TJ could just go ahead and release these breeds as hybrids, at least in theory.

 

List of actual hybrids:

  • Amour Propre (any yellow breed x any pink breed)
  • Blue Rose (Vine x Guardian) not marked as such on the Completed List
  • Blueflame Galaxy (Nebula x Ridgewing)
  • Cream (Magi x White)

List of potential hybrids and other breed-only dragons (provided the people responsible for creating the breed agree):

  • Aero (White x Sunsong
  • Arctic Fox (Pillow x any Eastern)
  • Azure (gold-colored breed x blue colored breed, at least one of the parents needs to be a Western dragon)
  • Baleen Sea Dragon (Water x Deep Sea)
  • Bear (Black x Pillow)
  • Bichir (Water/Deep Sea x Tri-Horn)
  • Black-Ray Lindwyrm (Bluna x Spotted Greenwing, maybe Bluna x Black, Bluna x Cavern Lurker)
  • Black Shuck (Cavern Lurker bred out of Season?)
  • Black Tri (Black x Blacktip, Black x Lumina)
  • Blazeback (Black x Hellfire, Black x Hellhorse)
  • Blue Screecher (Spotted Greenwing x grey, SG x black?)
  • Bluver Pygmy (Nilia x Original Pygmy)
  • Boreal (Grey x Frostbite, Nocturne x Frostbite, Grey x Nocturne)
  • Calligraphy (Albino x any Eastern)
  • Cascade Dancer (Lumina x Water, Lumina x Deep Sea)
  • Catkin (Pillow x Purple)
  • Celestial Imitators (Sunrise/Sunset x Royal Blue (night), Sunrise/Sunset x Yellow-Crowned?)
  • Charcoal (Brute x Magma?)
  • Chimeric Amphipthere (Blacktip x Sunsong)
  • Cleaner Pygmy (original Pygmy x Seawyrm => land; Nilia x Seawyrm => water)
  • Comet Amphipthere (Sunsong x Nebula?)
  • Coral (Ridgewing x Shallow Water; Ridgewing x Water)
  • Cotton (Pillow x White)
  • Crescent-Tailed Moonflyer (Royal Blue x any yellow/golden breed)

 

And that was only for the first three letters of the alphabet... As you see, with a bit creative license, there are a lot of breeds out there that might become hybrids. (And if TJ asked someone if they'd care to have their concept released provided they agree to make it a hybrid - who in their right mind would say no?)

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YES PLEASE to more hybrids - and GIMME those Weather Balloons NAOW ! I can't WAIT !

 

The discussion of who can and who can't is fairly arcane except to someone considering starting on one - more to the point is the number already under construction/waiting !

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I think it would be wise to release more hybrids and unbreedables, two-heads, drakes, pygmies in general. With the larger pool of dragons and the shuffling etc, it's taking longer for ratios to catch up to players. So introducing the alternate types of critters would give the main ones time to catch up. Basically, it would be healthy for the cave.

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Yea, I agree that in general we need more dragons that aren't just the normal western/eastern/wyvern/etc. I'm sure lots of people were excited about the last release with there being a DC drake, a 2 headed, and a pygmy, but we are probably not going to be as lucky until next years anniversary which will mark a whole decade of dragon cave. I wish we had gotten hybrid as well, as like a kind of bonus since it wouldn't drop in the cave.

 

However, seeing that list of supposed hybrid dragons really is impressive and makes me wonder why we don't have more if those are all from the completed list.

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Since conceptors who aren't also artists don't have any say on DC anyway

 

(And if TJ asked someone if they'd care to have their concept released provided they agree to make it a hybrid - who in their right mind would say no?)

What do you mean by that? And I would say no because I have several dragons in the request section and completed section that I do not want to be hybrids because that's not how I envision them as.

 

 

And also could someone give me a link to the pillow hybrid? This is the first I'm hearing of it.

Edited by RecycledHeart

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However, seeing that list of supposed hybrid dragons really is impressive and makes me wonder why we don't have more if those are all from the completed list.

It was a list of dragons that could be repurposed as hybrids, not ones that currently might be hybrids. Personally I think making other breeds retroactively hybrids ruins the point of making hybrids--which should be to combine two breeds and see what happens, not just say "oh these look vaguely alike, let's call it a hybrid."

 

@Olympe: you missed Sunbursts, which were a blusang x sunsong hybrid last I knew.

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I admit that I my self may also have wrong observation and as with anything, everyone reserveres the right to dislike or go against something should it particularly apply to them. So should you sprite a dragon you are fully allowed to negotiate with TJ the use of Hybrids and have it specified under your artist information that Hybrids should first be run by you so you can either approve and help the suggestion your self or decline the use of your sprite in said manner.

 

I think my above statement also fits in to your post Fiona :3

See Ana, this is all I was trying to say in the beginning lol. That an artist should be able to express their opinion and have a say/and or hand in creation of a hybrid that is created from their dragon - that's all!

I just kinda felt attacked when I was told that I had no right to have an opinion on the matter if I were a spriter and someone wanted to make a hybrid from my dragon. Also you seemed to be of the same mindset in the Pillow Dragon hybrid thread so I found it odd that now you were stating that an artists shouldn't have a say? Unless I've gravely misinterpreted what you were saying last night here, in which case I apologize deeply - I was having a terrible day lol. But anyhow since you seem to agree now that it's okay for the original artist to negotiate and have a say I suppose it's neither here nor there.

 

And so yes, I agree with several other comments that the rules need to change to be clear and reflect what exactly needs to be done so there is no confusion.

 

I also want to reiterate that I LOVE hybrids and have no qualms with them whatsoever, even if I do forget about them in the actual game xd.png (like I said, I usually just pick them up in AP, but then again I'm not a huge breeder - it could also be the fact that I haven't been here all too long and no hybrids have been released in my time to tempt me to breed for them~).

 

I would love to see more hybrids and I think we have a large enough pool of dragons now that many different hybrids could be potentially created (that was a concern of mine at first - that for some reason it'd be limited), but I'm sure that even if one dragon has been used in one hybrid, it can be used in another, right? With artist's permission ofc - because I think that'd be awesome and just further the breeding options~.

Edited by Slater_C

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What do you mean by that? And I would say no because I have several dragons in the request section and completed section that I do not want to be hybrids because that's not how I envision them as.

 

 

And also could someone give me a link to the pillow hybrid? This is the first I'm hearing of it.

People who created the dragon- ie, who came up with the concept and were the original posters- get no credit and no say as to what is done to their dragon once it goes in-cave if they did not help create the finished art. >:( Which is absolutely ridiculous, of course.

 

Here is the amazing hybrid! I understand why Particlesoup decided not to allow it, but it makes me sad that the OP seems so unwilling to allow this to be a standalone. :/

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People who created the dragon- ie, who came up with the concept and were the original posters- get no credit and no say as to what is done to their dragon once it goes in-cave if they did not help create the finished art. >:( Which is absolutely ridiculous, of course.

 

Here is the amazing hybrid! I understand why Particlesoup decided not to allow it, but it makes me sad that the OP seems so unwilling to allow this to be a standalone. :/

That is ridiculous. Without spriters AND conceptors these dragons would simply not exist. That really isn't fair.

 

Thank you for the link

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Gonna be short since I'm on my phone. There have been pushes, and I believe pushes still continue, to include conceptors into the credits. A conceptor CAN still have say in what happens with their dragon and its lore, but unfortunately not having credit means they need to work extra hard to make themselves and their contributions known.

Edited by ParticleSoup

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I am unaware of any on-site dragons whose ideas were not the product of the at least one of artists who created the image, either in full or part. Is this an issue that has actually lead to conflict in the past?

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