[Suggestion] More Hybrid Releases?

[Laugh]

I would like to suggest that releases involve hybrids more. In my opinion having more releases based more on hybrids adds a mystery and fun into figuring out what makes the hybrid. This also doesn't force anyone to abandon egg(s) in fear that they'll lose an opportunity at an easy picking in case the breed happens to go rare.

 

 

I'm wondering what you guys are thinking about hybrid releases. I don't think I've been here for one and I've nearly played for two years (next month should be 2). Also any pros/cons you guys can think of I will be moving onto second post as I'd prefer having the list there, tbh (also wishing we had a spoiler button).

Edited June 3, 2015 by Saynna

[Laugh]

Pros:

• Hybrid releases allows players to breed for it rather than hunt.
• Somewhat promotes players to hunt in biomes for more breeding fodder for more hybrids.
• Promotes breeding
• Fast internet connection isn't needed to "compete" with other members

Cons:

• Puts newer players at a disadvantage, especially ones that just started.
• Could put a lot of frustration from not knowing what two breeds make the hybrid.
• Limits on lineage opportunities

A few things that could go either pro/con depending on how you look at it.

• Marketplace
• Ratios

Of course the list isn't all the pros/cons. Just a few I could list off the spot. Will be adding more when there is more discussion bringing attention to potential cons/pros. Edited June 4, 2015 by Saynna

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, you need more hybrid requests to have more for TJ to pick from. Hybrids are pretty uncommon compared to stand alone breeds, which lowers the chances of TJ finding just the perfect one to release and, thus, the odds of one being released to begin with. So this suggestion is kind of limited, since it's probably not that they're being avoided so much as there just aren't as many around.

 

random comment // I do like hybrids, but personally I prefer normal releases even more, as they present more lineage opportunities than do you-gotta-use-their-parents hybrids. // end random comment.

Edited June 3, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Laugh]

Well, you need more hybrid requests to have more for TJ to pick from. Hybrids are pretty uncommon compared to stand alone breeds, which lowers the chances of TJ finding just the perfect one to release and, thus, the odds of one being released to begin with. So this suggestion is kind of limited, since it's probably not that they're being avoided so much as there just aren't as many around.

 

random comment // I do like hybrids, but personally I prefer normal releases even more, as they present more lineage opportunities than do you-gotta-use-their-parents hybrids. // end random comment.

I think there's ought to be a good number to pick from since there is around 20 pages of completed requests in the Completed Requests sub-forum. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to suggest we have 12 monthly releases of hybrids, but just a couple (like 1-2 ideally since we have 3 holiday releases) hybrids focused releases here and there would at least allow players to relax a bit from previous regular releases.

 

I agree with you that normal releases do present more lineage opportunities though.

 

ETA: I added "Limits lineage opportunities" in pros. Thanks for bring that up o3o

Edited June 3, 2015 by Saynna

[Cecona]

Yea, what ADP said. The first step in making a hybrid is getting permission from the people that made the two dragons one wishes to make a hybrid with. You could be denied permission or not get an answer back. Then it needs to be approved in the request thread, sketches, ideas, sprite lines, coloring, eggs, hatchlings, descriptions. making the dragon can be a lengthy process before it can be considered completed and moved to the completed dragons forum.

 

I know of two hybrid dragons in the request forum so far- a balloon/weather hybrid which is adorable and chubby, and a sunstone/moonstone hybrid. You can check them out and hope for them to be completed and approved.

[Nectaris]

Yeah, there need to be more hybrid requests for there to be more hybrids released. Personally, I welcome hybrids with my dragons, but there are others who don't. There are several that are in the progress lists, but few completed.

[Laugh]

Yea, what ADP said. The first step in making a hybrid is getting permission from the people that made the two dragons one wishes to make a hybrid with. You could be denied permission or not get an answer back. Then it needs to be approved in the request thread, sketches, ideas, sprite lines, coloring, eggs, hatchlings, descriptions. making the dragon can be a lengthy process before it can be considered completed and moved to the completed dragons forum.

 

I know of two hybrid dragons in the request forum so far- a balloon/weather hybrid which is adorable and chubby, and a sunstone/moonstone hybrid. You can check them out and hope for them to be completed and approved.

It's not required to get permission from the spriter(s) who made the dragon(s) used to make the hybrid, though it is suggested that you should PM them to let them know about it.

 

Q: Can I suggest a hybrid of a dragon?

A: Yes. It is considered a courtesy to contact the artists/conceptors - see the Artist Permissions Topic for the best way to contact them or any specific notes they have; you can find the artist at the bottom of the view page for the dragon - and let them know your idea. They may want to help out or even have their own plans. You do not need permission to post a hybrid, but will likely receive a reminder to notify the artists if your topic is approved.

 

I'm not quite sure though what happens when the dragon goes to Completed (without said spriter(s) knowledge) and bought to TJ's attention to implement.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So I just ran through the completed list really quickly, and only three breeds were marked with an added [Hybrid] in the name on the entire list. Now, this list isn't complete--I know the sunbursts are a blusang x sunsong cross--so I'm guessing it's a newer tag TJ / mods only just started adding, but it's still pretty indicative, I think. There aren't a whole lot.

[Laugh]

Oh I thought there'd be around 20ish to work with haha.

 

 

[Odeen]

Hybrids suffer the same bottleneck as NDEGs. They're less popular so people make fewer so TJ doesn't release them so they remain unpopular.

[Slater_C]

Actually, though for some reason it isn't required to get the original artist's/spriter's permission - they can still come in and say 'no'. That happened recently in DR with a Pillow Dragon hybrid and I'm going to assume because of legalities, even if the original spriters were not asked during the process, TJ would have to track them down after the fact if he had interest any given hybrid concept.

 

At least, this is my understanding...and as a professional artist myself I just find it odd that permission wouldn't be required in making a hybrid in the first place. I certainly would like the final say on any hybrid concept that involved any dragon of mine that ever made it in cave.

 

Edit: That isn't to say I wouldn't love to see more! Although, admittedly, I keep forgetting about the current hybrids ; I usually just pick up their eggs in the AP instead of breeding them myself.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Slater_C

[Sylph264]

Actually, though for some reason it isn't required to get the original artist's/spriter's permission - they can still come in and say 'no'. That happened recently in DR with a Pillow Dragon hybrid and I'm going to assume because of legalities, even if the original spriters were not asked during the process, TJ would have to track them down regardless after the fact if he had interest any given hybrid concept.

 

At least, this is my understanding...and as a professional artist myself I just find it odd that permission wouldn't be required in making a hybrid in the first place. I certainly would like the final say on any hybrid concept that involved any dragon of mine that ever made it in cave.

It's required that you ask the artists- mods will as to see proof that you did- but if they don't respond within thirty days, the project can move ahead. I can see why they'd do this- after all, what if an artist abandons the game forever? Then the already-neglected hybrids lose a request. I see it as being a way to slightly speed up the process while still respecting the artist.

[Cecona]

I could be wrong but I remember reading that you do need the permission of the dragons creators- and that does not always mean spriter. Is the dragon's concept creator allowed to say what happens to their dragons as well? or is it just out of their power after it's completed?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Cecona

[AnanoKimi]

I want to say that the reason for the "permission not required" reason is (and I could be wrong so) that since the only actual use of the dragon required for the hybrid is in the breeding itself its not really required to as permission.

 

What I mean is that the actual sprite is not being altered or changed in it of its self so there is no need to ask for direct permission. The only use of the sprite is in something that is already normally done on DC which is breeding so there is no reason to require direct permission from the sprite artist. Technically the descriptions themselves don't seem to mention the parent breeds either, they simply have a brief summary of what the breed is like in it of its self.

 

Generally I believe that the change of the actual art or use outside of normal use of the art required direct artist permission. Seeing as none of those seem to be the cse then the artist permission is not entirely required, it is simply a courtesy thing to let them know in case they want to offer, help, sprite art, or critiques along the way. Whether a person respects an artist's no is also a personal thing since the sprite is not being used outside of its normal permissions then there is no violation.

[Laugh]

Before I mysteriously vanish, let me just say that I'm not saying we should ignore the spriters' wishes. ;w; I was just pointing out it isn't required at all to make a topic about hybrids in DR. In no way am I supporting that spriters have no say into a concept >_>

[Cecona]

I want to say that the reason for the "permission not required" reason is (and I could be wrong so) that since the only actual use of the dragon required for the hybrid is in the breeding itself its not really required to as permission.

 

What I mean is that the actual sprite is not being altered or changed in it of its self so there is no need to ask for direct permission. The only use of the sprite is in something that is already normally done on DC which is breeding so there is no reason to require direct permission from the sprite artist. Technically the descriptions themselves don't seem to mention the parent breeds either, they simply have a brief summary of what the breed is like in it of its self.

 

Generally I believe that the change of the actual art or use outside of normal use of the art required direct artist permission. Seeing as none of those seem to be the cse then the artist permission is not entirely required, it is simply a courtesy thing to let them know in case they want to offer, help, sprite art, or critiques along the way. Whether a person respects an artist's no is also a personal thing since the sprite is not being used outside of its normal permissions then there is no violation.

I think permission is needed, or at least requested, because of the fact the hybrid dragon is literally half of that one dragon, and half of another. The actual art may not be touched, but the fact it's being used to create something else should be something the creator oft he dragon should know about.

 

I know if someone used my art to create something else I would want someone to at least ask or tell me first. It would be upsetting to me to find that someone took what I created and created something else from it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Stuff like this confusion is another reason hybrids are hard to come by I'd guess. DC is an absolute nightmare when it comes to knowing who you need to ask to do what X___x

[Obscure_Trash]

I want to say that the reason for the "permission not required" reason is (and I could be wrong so) that since the only actual use of the dragon required for the hybrid is in the breeding itself its not really required to as permission.

 

What I mean is that the actual sprite is not being altered or changed in it of its self so there is no need to ask for direct permission. The only use of the sprite is in something that is already normally done on DC which is breeding so there is no reason to require direct permission from the sprite artist. Technically the descriptions themselves don't seem to mention the parent breeds either, they simply have a brief summary of what the breed is like in it of its self.

 

Generally I believe that the change of the actual art or use outside of normal use of the art required direct artist permission. Seeing as none of those seem to be the case then the artist permission is not entirely required, it is simply a courtesy thing to let them know in case they want to offer, help, sprite art, or critiques along the way. Whether a person respects an artist's no is also a personal thing since the sprite is not being used outside of its normal permissions then there is no violation.

^ This is a good breakdown.

Permission isn't required, but if an artist does happen to say no, that does mean the concept can't move ahead.

 

(And yes, the hybrid tagging system on the completed list is fairly new. I haven't had time to go back and re-tag hybrids or concepts with multiple biomes, though.)

 

To get back on subject, though, I do love hybrids. I wouldn't mind more releases of hybrids, but I think TJ already takes into account the different types of dragons and releasing a little of everything. xP

[Cecona]

I don't think anyone here is saying they wouldn't like more hybrids, I would love more hybrids as well, but we just want to try and point out that it is not so simple.

[Laugh]

Stuff like this confusion is another reason hybrids are hard to come by I'd guess. DC is an absolute nightmare when it comes to knowing who you need to ask to do what X___x

Tbh, I should have probably contacted a spriter/mod how the end result works (like if artists say no to a dragon when TJ wants to implement it). I didn't think it'd be too much of an issue that would be discussed. >o>

[AnanoKimi]

Tbh, I should have probably contacted a spriter/mod how the end result works (like if artists say no to a dragon when TJ wants to implement it). I didn't think it'd be too much of an issue that would be discussed. >o>

So um your answer to this is right here:

I want to say that the reason for the "permission not required" reason is (and I could be wrong so) that since the only actual use of the dragon required for the hybrid is in the breeding itself its not really required to as permission.

 

What I mean is that the actual sprite is not being altered or changed in it of its self so there is no need to ask for direct permission. The only use of the sprite is in something that is already normally done on DC which is breeding so there is no reason to require direct permission from the sprite artist. Technically the descriptions themselves don't seem to mention the parent breeds either, they simply have a brief summary of what the breed is like in it of its self.

 

Generally I believe that the change of the actual art or use outside of normal use of the art required direct artist permission. Seeing as none of those seem to be the cse then the artist permission is not entirely required, it is simply a courtesy thing to let them know in case they want to offer, help, sprite art, or critiques along the way. Whether a person respects an artist's no is also a personal thing since the sprite is not being used outside of its normal permissions then there is no violation.

^ This is a good breakdown.

Permission isn't required, but if an artist does happen to say no, that does mean the concept can't move ahead.

 

(And yes, the hybrid tagging system on the completed list is fairly new. I haven't had time to go back and re-tag hybrids or concepts with multiple biomes, though.)

 

To get back on subject, though, I do love hybrids. I wouldn't mind more releases of hybrids, but I think TJ already takes into account the different types of dragons and releasing a little of everything. xP

[Slater_C]

I think permission is needed, or at least requested, because of the fact the hybrid dragon is literally half of that one dragon, and half of another. The actual art may not be touched, but the fact it's being used to create something else should be something the creator oft he dragon should know about.

 

I know if someone used my art to create something else I would want someone to at least ask or tell me first. It would be upsetting to me to find that someone took what I created and created something else from it.

^^^ This.

 

The problem is that even if the original art isn't being used in a hybrid concept, you are still taking themes/parts/ideas from the original concept. It would kinda be like if someone liked one of my OCs and maybe someone else's and made a love child from them - taking aspects from both and incorporating them into their new OC. Since my OC would be half of the driving force for their creation I sure as heck would want them to ask me first ; 7 ; And I would still reserve the right to say no.

 

@Saynna: Oh gosh, no I wasn't suggesting that you didn't care, I'm sorry! ; 7 ; I was just responding to that quote of the rule that states it was a curtsey to contact that artist because it's my opinion that it should be required.

 

Edit: I'm slow typer lmao

But for whatever reason, if explicit permission isn't required here then whatevs I guess ;; It's still concerning to me;;;

Edited June 3, 2015 by Slater_C

[Laugh]

Yeah just saw it :3 Sockie's post came while I was typing is all

 

ETA: Don't worry Ace that wasn't a reply to you. ;w; That was just in case someone had the wrong idea (cause I can see how someone can by just reading it) and posted it while I was gone and discussion on that would just continue. >o>;

Edited June 3, 2015 by Saynna

[AnanoKimi]

^^^ This.

 

The problem is that even if the original art isn't being used in a hybrid concept, you are still taking themes/parts/ideas from the original concept. It would kinda be like if someone liked one of my OCs and maybe someone else's and made a love child of them - taking aspects from both and incorporating them into their new OC. Since my OC would be half of the driving force for their creation I sure as heck would want them to ask me first ; 7 ; And I would still reserve the right to say no.

 

@Saynna: Oh gosh, no I wasn't suggesting that you didn't care, I'm sorry! ; 7 ;  I was just responding to that quote of the rule that states it was a curtsey to contact that artist because it's my opinion that it should be required.

 

Edit: I'm slow typer lmao

But for whatever reason, if explicit permission isn't required here then whatevs I guess ;; It's still concerning to me;;;

THats also like saying Original characters based off of or sharing aspects of one of your characters is not okay despite that the only similarities is very out of the way bits and the inspiration. They aren't exactly using your character, they arent using your art specifically and changing it or calling it theirs, they just made an original character based of of yours and someone elses or better yet inspired by what could be.

 

So no, even if you don't like it its not in your right to say take it down because it is not your art specifically/dirrectly being used or altered nor is it being reproduced in the persons name. Again if it was a direct alteration then you would have a right to say no but otherwise its all up in the air even if you don't exactly agree.

 

Also not trying to be rude thats just really how it works. You have no right to remove or stifle art beased off of or inspired from something you own. Unless your art is being directly messed with (Colors changed, lining slightly altered, features somewhat changed but still recognizable to its original) then you would have the ability to ask the person to stop or remove the work. Inspired peices or hybridization done in original ways with only minor hints to the original insipirration is outside of one's limits.

Edited June 3, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[Jazeki]

Actually, at any time, the owner of the intellectual property of a character that results in a fan character could ask for a cease and desist if the person proceeds because no permission was granted to play around with their creations. This, of course, is void with creative commons licenses or permission.

 

With the dragons, I think it's courtesy to ask the creator/ artist (not necessarily the same thing) because in the end, the game and all of these dragons belong to TJ.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Jazeki