Make CB Golds **slighty** less rare

[Syphoneira]

Can I make a mention as well that not everyone is into lineages? I personally don't really care for lineages unless I personally create them. My affinity for lets say thuweds, spriters alts, and other 2nd gen prizes is the collector aspect of me.

 

Being able to trade for multiple CB metals allows me to come closer to personal breeding and collecting goals more than anything. Should CB metals lets say become uncommon and very easily attainable, then I would probably hunker down to simply gifting my 2nd gens to those I personally feel like gifting to and prize swaps. I would only trade for non rares should I really need non rares in large quantities. That being said anyone that came to me with "I have this 10th gen blah blah linage baby and like 3 other pretty lineage babies of varying generations" I would have to turn them down. It can be the most gorgeous pattern you could think of, I don't really care and those have little to no value to me and I feel no urge to collect them.

 

On the topic of chaing the rarity of Metals, Adding a second row, decreasing their rarity slightly, etc, we are still faced with the issue of multi scrollers and scripters. Theonly way to combat that is to make metals super common and available to everyone from the get go. Destrying their rarity is the only way to ensure that those who catch them non stop without giving a chance to anyone else can turn their sights on something else. Should that happen though there is the possibility that they will then loose the interest of the community once the community fills up and soon realizes how common and devalued they are. Everyone will have one or the ability to have one and as such no one will want one.

 

So really I'm not entirely sure what can be done. Cheaters will always cheat no matter how we try to turn the tide in our favor. Should their rarity decrease a bit there is no guarantee that they will be any easier to catch than they are now. Given it is worth a shot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, one of the cool things about DC is that there are a variety of ways to play, and everyone's different, so we hunt and trade for the dragons we want, and breed or not as we please.

 

Just kinda wondering though, even if you currently think that you really only value metals because of their trade prices, and don't trade them immediately to get the value but use them for scroll goals and personal breeding, the actual value of the CB metals is anyway trapped on your scroll, so to speak, so a lower value on the CBs would actually enable you to get more, in order to fulfill your goals and becoming able to move on to trading for whatever else more quickly, wouldn't it?

 

 

I'm also not sure if reduced rarity would actually cause metallics, Pyralspites or Coppers to become unwanted, since many people are into lineages and even those who aren't often want them for things like scroll goals and Prize lineages or because they love the sprite - back when CB metals were actually catchable by almost anyone putting the time and effort in, they were still highly desirable and a big thrill to catch.

 

Now, they're simply not available to many people.

 

Personally, I liked it when we were here for the dragons and could still 'get them all', not so much into the 'trade fodder for some, no soup for you' thing myself...

 

 

But many people are still being effectively shut out of areas of the game, unable to access dragons they need to complete scroll goals or to start or continue lineages or whatever, at least in part because there are cheaters, which is because some dragons have become nothing more than 'valuable trade fodder' to some, and at least some of us would rather be able to access the dragons we want/need than support absurdly high trade valuations and scarcity created in part by cheaters profiting with often no repercussions for a very long time, so I'm happy to see that you support this being given a shot.

[Ribombee]

I am wondering if the reason metals are less common over time is simply because there are more dragon types. Without knowing what the ratios are based on, that is hard to tell.

 

If the ratios are based on comparing to other ratios, then it would drop.

i.e. If you have a ratio of 1:4 golds to neos, and those are the only two breeds, then you still get a fair numbner of golds. If you add a third breed and make it 1:4:2 (golds:neos:seasonals) now your ratio of golds alone has dropped from 1 in 5 to 1 in 7.

 

However, if it is based on total number of dragons in the game, it should not change unless there happens to be a spike in golds and the numbers of golds generated then drops to fix the ratios.

[_Sin_]

What is the worst that could happen if the dropping frequency was back at it was on early 2013, just for a short time like then, progressively decreasing like then?

What happened that was so bad then? Because, if the only consequence was that the CB Prize owners asked for a lot of metals, that is happening already. Someone was telling me that she had contacted an owner and was told that he/she was trading a 2nd Gen prize for 8 CB Golds, 6 of them on Can'tBeMentioned way. A bit later the new owner of the same egg was posting it again for trade. Long story short, not a lot changed, no? Some owners still gift eggs, drop 2nd Gen Prizes to the AP, accept trades that wouldn't be considered valuable. Others ask for what they can get, their prerogative.

So, again, what is the worst that could happen?

[Odeen]

How the ratios work is a TJ deal, and I'm not sure he's inclined to say in any detail, but as far as I'm aware from various forum sources the ratios are blocked out by rarity rather than comparing specific breeds (there will always be approx. X percentage of rares produced with Y percentage of commons etc). Thus, the more breeds there are in a certain rarity, the less frequently any specific one of them will show up. We don't have very many dragons at all in the rarity group that includes golds, so new releases should more often than not increase the number of CB golds you see dropping for a while.

[DarkEternity]

_Sin_ 2g prize swaps only, all other offers rejected.

[_Sin_]

How the ratios work is a TJ deal, and I'm not sure he's inclined to say in any detail, but as far as I'm aware from various forum sources the ratios are blocked out by rarity rather than comparing specific breeds (there will always be approx. X percentage of rares produced with Y percentage of commons etc). Thus, the more breeds there are in a certain rarity, the less frequently any specific one of them will show up. We don't have very many dragons at all in the rarity group that includes golds, so new releases should more often than not increase the number of CB golds you see dropping for a while.

Interesting enough, a lot of Golds were dropping in the Jungle in the few weeks right after the release of the Gemshards. I thought more about the significantly increased number of people online and on that biome.

[osean]

I would like to see the rarity of golds go down just slightly, perhaps to the level of silvers where they are still really hard to catch but still obtainable by the average person with a little bit of patience stalking the biomes.

 

As far as people who who are upset by the trade market being impossible to get anything worthwhile because of prizes, I do feel your pain as I have nothing of value to obtain 2nd gens either. I do have hope that one day once the prize owners are able to trade for all the rares they need that they will start trading for things that the average person could have on hand to trade. I also really hate the lets blame prize owners mentality that I have seen lately for the mess that trades have become. I can almost guarantee that if it was you that won the prize, you would be trading offspring for the same price as they are.

[Ribombee]

I would like to see the rarity of golds go down just slightly, perhaps to the level of silvers where they are still really hard to catch but still obtainable by the average person with a little bit of patience stalking the biomes.

 

As far as people who who are upset by the trade market being impossible to get anything worthwhile because of prizes, I do feel your pain as I have nothing of value to obtain 2nd gens either. I do have hope that one day once the prize owners are able to trade for all the rares they need that they will start trading for things that the average person could have on hand to trade. I also really hate the lets blame prize owners mentality that I have seen lately for the mess that trades have become. I can almost guarantee that if it was you that won the prize, you would be trading offspring for the same price as they are.

Thank you for this. Well before I won a prize, I have always felt that prize owners should be able to ask whatever they like, and if they can get it, all the more power to them. Upsetting prize owners by blaming things on them is not going to get more eggs in circulation. If anything, it is going to make it harder to get eggs, because many people will not want to deal with the drama and will either not breed their prizes at all, will keep all their offspring, or will only swap with other prize owners.

 

It's just as pointless to blame holly CB owners or holiday spriters. These are all people who either were here early enough, were lucky enough, or had the skill necessary to get a special sprite. What they do with their dragons is their business. Blaming rarity issues on any of these people, or on the people who legitimately are just good cave catchers serves no purpose other than to upset people.

 

Golds are VERY rares for a reason. They will always be difficult to catch. The real issue is whether they are TOO difficult to catch, either ever or only just at this particular moment.

[DarkEternity]

Maybe prize dragons should have been unbreedable like the flying stack of pancakes.

[Syphoneira]

I would like to see the rarity of golds go down just slightly, perhaps to the level of silvers where they are still really hard to catch but still obtainable by the average person with a little bit of patience stalking the biomes.

 

As far as people who who are upset by the trade market being impossible to get anything worthwhile because of prizes, I do feel your pain as I have nothing of value to obtain 2nd gens either.  I do have hope that one day once the prize owners are able to trade for all the rares they need that they will start trading for things that the average person could have on hand to trade.  I also really hate the lets blame prize owners mentality that I have seen lately for the mess that trades have become.  I can almost guarantee that if it was you that won the prize, you would be trading offspring for the same price as they are.

 

 

Lol, I've seen, and missed exactly one of each CB metallic recently, the first sighting in forever - but I do think that it was much better when just about anyone putting the time in could get any dragon available in the Cave.

 

 

Thing is, this doesn't just affect people unable to get 2nd gen Prizes - they can't get CB Golds, Silvers or Alpine or Coast Pyralspites, and it's only lately that the odd regular person has been more likely able to get Coppers - and all of these are far more often needed for scroll completion and for starting/continuing lineages than in trying to get what are still very limited numbers of 2nd gen Prizes.

 

 

I don't think that many people blame Prize owners for getting the best trades possible; I don't think I personally know any who do, actually.

 

Sounds to me as though people are more often distressed because they can't get them than angry at the owners, if you see what I mean.

 

Also, the people who won were randomly selected throughout the site - some are making up for never having been able to get rares before, some swapping for other lines, some at least part of the time are asking for more possible trades, or gifting - all different people doing different things, or a mix of them.

 

And with the increased numbers of Prizes distributed this past year, I'm not seeing the same level of desperation there once was, either.

 

Thing is, we didn't always have this absurd level of rarity, or this two-tier economy, and there actually was a time when people used to be able to 'catch them all' and that was great.

 

I think it'd be a lot more fun if we could have that aspect, and let the various Prize owners work out what they wanted to do according to their own various tastes, if only because there are always going to be lot more of us without CB Prizes than with, many of us have no hope of coming up with adequate trades for 2nd gens, and we'd like to get on with the game, on an otherwise equal footing.

 

 

 

Edit: got sooooo ed!

 

Also, DarkEternity made me lol - and possibly set the stage for nightmares.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Syphoneira

[_Sin_]

_Sin_  2g prize swaps only, all other offers rejected.

Well... I just took a look at Prize Central and I would say that is happening already.

Anyway, if that's the worst that could happen, maybe a temporary short "time travel back" to 2013 wouldn't be that bad, giving more people the chance to catch a rare. Even then, many and many didn't catch any and many were very happy getting one. The CB Metals Everywhere thread is quite interesting, portraying the madness of those months

 

Edited because I can't write.

Edited May 16, 2015 by _Sin_

[DarkEternity]

When was the last time we even saw the pancakes (IHOP) mentioned? It's much rarer than the prize dragons.

 

It's been like 5 years, to the point where most of you guys know what I'm going to say before I say it.

Edited May 16, 2015 by DarkEternity

[lightningsky]

I'm bad at phrasing things so bear with me D:

 

It's making me sick reading all the posts of people who have witnessed or heard of scripting to cheat. I honestly cannot believe that this is what it came down to. A lack of rares and the high trade prices is really the cause of it, imo.

 

I'm for bridging the gap between common-uncommon-rare, because currently we have obviously-common, uncommon-ish, and super-rare and the latter is unobtainable for the average player...The only thing is that it is not an easy fix (ratios). I'm pretty sure we've been told to go catch and raise/freeze 849213 commons so we can have that 1 CB Gold pop up - only to have it swept from under us by a cheater...? x_x

 

Set rarity for each Dragon breed would be a start? Maybe?

 

I agree with a lot that Syphoneira said, especially this:

But having gained a better understanding of the probable extent of the issues involved, I'd personally support also an increase in current rares (whether actually or incidentally rare, due to circumstance) sufficient to bring the trade value of such rares down to a point where scripting is no longer sufficiently worth-while to risk scroll-burning and the loss of all dragons, and so that trade can at least partially revert to the previous norm, (rather than the stock-broker-type system/mind-set which resulted from an initial scarcity,) where dragons are again valued for themselves, and not merely as what they'll buy.

 

That last bit there especially.

 

~

 

The problem did start with the Prize Dragons. But I will say (and of course everyone has their own experience with this) that the 600 given out last year was a huge help to getting those babies more out to the common folk. I was never able to trade for a 3G before this and now I think I have about 5, and also a 2G of my own <--- Which I thought was IMPOSSIBLE for me. Give it another year and there's 600 (or more) people that can breed those new ones, plus the already existing ones from previous years. Maybe one day we all have a Prize dragon of our own. BUT we cannot sit here and constantly point the finger to the Prizes and their owners for why our economy is skewed...that's not fair to them.

 

edited for clarity

Edited May 16, 2015 by lightningsky

[_Sin_]

Give it another year and there's 600 (or more) people that can breed those new ones, plus the already existing ones from previous years.Let's

Let's hope. Because one of the theories I heard was that the high increase this year would be followed next year by the release of a new Prize sprite. Obviously only TJ knows for sure but I'm really hoping that will not happen.

[pinkgothic]

The problem did start with the Prize Dragons.

Sorry for picking out one sentence in your ramble, especially since I mostly agree with the sentiment you're trying to argue for*, but before the gold/silver glut in 2013, I felt CB metallics had practically the same behaviour (and that behaviour in turn went all the way back to the time when they first stopped being commons).

 

The difference was that (at first) there were no other ultrarares (except Neglected dragons) they could be traded for.

 

What happened was that (outside of swapping them for the first prizes) as far as I could see, basically no one traded them. Why? Because you could get anything for 2G metallics [edit: case in point, see DarkEntity's post below], so it was silly to trade them away. So the people who could catch them largely kept them. Back then it was rare to even see someone offer a CB metallic in the trading section.

 

Anyway, more importantly, though, I also think having some rarities that fill in the niches between the ultrarares and more common species would probably help, by allowing people to 'trade up' with some effort.

 

---

 

* (except for the part where you want people to stop blaming prizes/raffles - while I agree that's not constructive (since it's already a fairly established theory in the community) I think it's a fair assessment for people to make; not their owners, just the prize concept itself and the incentives it's created)

Edited May 16, 2015 by pinkgothic

[nlechoppa]

I'm bad at phrasing things so bear with me D:

 

It's making me sick reading all the posts of people who have witnessed or heard of scripting to cheat. I honestly cannot believe that this is what it came down to. A lack of rares and the high trade prices is really the cause of it, imo.

 

I'm for bridging the gap between common-uncommon-rare, because currently we have obviously-common, uncommon-ish, and super-rare and the latter is unobtainable for the average player...The only thing is that it is not an easy fix (ratios). I'm pretty sure we've been told to go catch and raise/freeze 849213 commons so we can have that 1 CB Gold pop up - only to have it swept from under us by a cheater...? x_x

 

Set rarity for each Dragon breed would be a start? Maybe?

 

I agree with a lot that Syphoneira said, especially this:

 

 

That last bit there especially.

 

~

 

The problem did start with the Prize Dragons. But I will say (and of course everyone has their own experience with this) that the 600 given out last year was a huge help to getting those babies more out to the common folk. I was never able to trade for a 3G before this and now I think I have about 5, and also a 2G of my own <--- Which I thought was IMPOSSIBLE for me. Give it another year and there's 600 (or more) people that can breed those new ones, plus the already existing ones from previous years. Maybe one day we all have a Prize dragon of our own. BUT we cannot sit here and constantly point the finger to the Prizes and their owners for why our economy is skewed...that's not fair to them.

 

edited for clarity

Sadly the prize dragons are to blame for the current state of trade. It would've been better just to purge all of those prizes, alas that would cause mass outrage.

[DarkEternity]

Sorry for picking out one sentence in your ramble, especially since I mostly agree with the sentiment you're trying to argue for*, but before the gold/silver glut in 2013, I felt CB metallics had practically the same behaviour (and that behaviour in turn went all the way back to the time when they first stopped being commons).

 

The difference was that (at first) there were no other ultrarares (except Neglected dragons) they could be traded for.

 

What happened was that (outside of swapping them for the first prizes) as far as I could see, basically no one traded them. Why? Because you could get anything for 2G metallics, so it was silly to trade them away. So the people who could catch them largely kept them. Back then it was rare to even see someone offer a CB metallic in the trading section.

 

Anyway, more importantly, though, I also think having some rarities that fill in the niches between the ultrarares and more common species would probably help, by allowing people to 'trade up' with some effort.

 

---

 

* (except for the part where you want people to stop blaming prizes/raffles - while I agree that's not constructive (since it's already a fairly established theory in the community) I think it's a fair assessment for people to make; not their owners, just the prize concept itself and the incentives it's created)

Before prize dragons, a 2g gold and a 2g silver were offered for things like 2g hollies etc.

[danicast]

Sadly the prize dragons are to blame for the current state of trade. It would've been better just to purge all of those prizes, alas that would cause mass outrage.

That would be the end of Drago Cave. None of the dragons can be "purged', it wouldn't be fair. Even the descontinued breeds were not purged, so I don't see this happening at all. I also don't think the prizes are the one to blame for the market. It's people greed and the rarity mechanism to blame, any rare dragon cause furor. When the last released dragon was being released there was a flaw in the system that made the drop stop, people run to offer the new release egg for CB golds and CB coppers and some people actually made those trades and after some hours, the eggs returned to drop and the dragon ended being common. What DC needs is no rare at all, golds and silvers dropping like neos and prizes released on caves. The extinction of the trade market would make DC a better place.

[Odeen]

The extinction of the trade market would make DC a better place.

You about lost me here.

 

While capitalism is overall a pretty bad system, coveting is a big reason people have fun doing anything. World of Warcraft has thrived for a decade exploiting users' desire to become more powerful and collect rarer things. It's not bad at all to have difficult-to-achieve goals, and having goals of varying difficulty simultaneously (catch a CB gold and collect 1000 deep seas) makes sure that users always have something to do. If you take away the rush that comes with acquiring difficult to find things, DC would become stale and tasteless as gruel.

[Tehya Faye]

Eliminating rarity completely would also ruin DC for people who like the challenge of hunting rares. I don't think the game would be nearly as exciting without them, and I don't think I'm alone in this mindset. Hunting for rares can be really frustrating, but that moment when you actually get one? It's great. ^^

[danicast]

You about lost me here.

 

While capitalism is overall a pretty bad system, coveting is a big reason people have fun doing anything. World of Warcraft has thrived for a decade exploiting users' desire to become more powerful and collect rarer things. It's not bad at all to have difficult-to-achieve goals, and having goals of varying difficulty simultaneously (catch a CB gold and collect 1000 deep seas) makes sure that users always have something to do. If you take away the rush that comes with acquiring difficult to find things, DC would become stale and tasteless as gruel.

I disagree. Not everybody plays to collect rares, I don't play like this. I collect several types of dragons, some are CB and some are lineaged. I never really felt any interest in the trade market. I don't feel that my scroll is less important or valuable than any other scroll because I don't have 100 CB golds (I just have 1) or because I don't have holliday alts or because I don't have a CB prize. I have more than 80 prizes, all with beautiful lineages, most of them 6th and 7th gen. This game for me is happy, I'm a happy collector. Not everybody plays based on greed and to be honest, I think my playstyle is the healthier style because I don't feel depressed because some people have CB prizes and you won't see me complaining in the forum because I can't have rares.

 

So yeah, shutdown the market. Make prizes and gold and silvers drop like neotropicals or nocturnals. If people abandon the game because they can not live without rares, good for them. It will be good for the game and for those who stick with the game and who are more interested in collect beautiful dragons.

 

edit to add: I'm sure also that this will solve the problem with multiscroller and those who use the scripts because it will make them pointless.

Edited May 16, 2015 by danicast

[AGYK]

That would be the end of Drago Cave. None of the dragons can be "purged', it wouldn't be fair. Even the descontinued breeds were not purged, so I don't see this happening at all. I also don't think the prizes are the one to blame for the market. It's people greed and the rarity mechanism to blame, any rare dragon cause furor.

Agreed. But I don't think eliminating the trading market will solve anything. People will always have "special" things. What's considered special just shifts over time.

 

"Special" used to be CB metals, 2nd-gen metals (breeding them was as impossible as catching them, an entire year of breeding could net literally two metals or less), Neglecteds, and Hollies. Then there were various minor CB metal gluts and 2nd-gen metals stopped being worth as much. There were CB Hollies released as prizes (a much-needed occurrence, honestly, Hollies in general and lower-gen Hollies in particular were starting to die out as Holly owners stopped playing) and Hollies stopped being worth as much, except 2nd-gens. And the new prizes took a place at the top of the rarity food chain.

 

Blaming the prizes is all well and good, but honestly, something will always sit at the top of the food chain, and whoever owns it will take flak from whoever doesn't. It used to be Holly owners who got flak for being "too greedy" with their Holly breedings. Neglected-makers have had their moment in the sun during moments of relative metal wealth, with a Neglected baby trading for 2 CB metals, and those without the metals complaining. Now it's the prize owners. I can safely say shifting the ratios won't help, making prizes unbreedable won't help, literally nothing can stop people from wanting whatever's considered most rare and most valuable at the moment. Even if every dragon is given exactly the same rarity, people will still put value on specific lineages (low-gen Thuweds, low-gen Dorkfaces, low-gen from spriter's alts, eggs from specific lineage projects) and some will naturally become more valuable than others.

 

tl;dr people like to complain.

 

So yeah, shutdown the market. Make prizes and gold and silvers drop like neotropicals or nocturnals. If people abandon the game because they can not live without rares, good for them. It will be good for the game and for those who stick with the game and who are more interested in collect beautiful dragons.

This is actually pretty unfair. Different people play for different reasons. Saying the people who like rares should be forced out of the game is about as bad as saying those who don't want rares should be forced out. Everyone plays the game a different way. Some of us collect rares. Some of us collect lineages. Some of us collect the different sprites. Each way is equally valid and nobody should be kicked off just for how they play. Also, see what I just wrote about rarity being a naturally-occurring thing.

[danicast]

All I have to say it: the solution to solve DC problems was suggested, people don't want. Please remember that the next time that you guys feels like blaming the prizes for your unhappiness with the game.

That's all.

[Tehya Faye]

Not everyone who enjoys hunting rares complains about CB Prize owners. That change would force me of the site despite the fact that I'm not contributing to the chorus of complaints. I don't think that's fair.

 

Hunting rares can make me happy, it can make me sad, but I don't blame anyone for my failures. It's all me. I go for them because it's exciting, not out of greed.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[Wandering4Ever]

I've refrained on commenting because i dont have a lot to contribute, and i go back and forth constantly.

...

but.. i think i've finally decided i'd really like to see the rarity of golds come down a bit.

I've been playing for five years, actively hunting, and i have never once seen a CB gold in cave.. Ever. Literally ever.

Five. Years. Of hunting. And all I've got to show is One CB Silver. I have only ever seen a CB silver in cave 4 times in all of my 5 years.

 

That CB Silver is the only CB metallic (excluding coppers) that I own. I have never been able to make trades for CB's because even with my unique Shine x Hellfire G2 Shimmer, I've never been able to draw in metallics.

The fact I even have to attach a 'worth' to my dragons is annoying.

I want to be able to play and catch what I want. After 5 years of putting in usually a solid few hours every week to hunting and still having nothing to show, yeah, I'm irritated.