Make CB Golds **slighty** less rare

[AnanoKimi]

After viewing both sides of it, I still support the limit. 

The idea that a limit will make the scripters make more scrolls....what is to say they don't already have more now?  Does anyone really believe they draw the line at scripting but won't make extra scrolls?

As far as breedings from spriter alts, why do they have to be traded for multiple cb metals?  A spriter alt cb owner could easily ask for 2nd gen prizes or just go with one cb gold + cb silver.  Most spriters I know breed and gift their common breedings, you just have to look at profiles to see if they have opening on list.

Also, I truly believe the intention with TJ putting out a large number of CB Prizes this year was to make breedings from them obtainable to everybody, but it doesn't seem to have worked out that way. 

If I am lucky enough to catch one cb gold in cave, it still would not come close to being good enough to get a 2nd gen prize when there are others that can and will give much much more.

 

Anyway, I doubt this will be implemented, but I do think it is a good and viable idea and hope this does get seriously considered.

 

I am confused, do you support the limits? Because it seems like you meant to say you didnt but I am not sure.

[_Sin_]

Could the rarity of CB golds be reduced a little bit so a few more get into circulation? I'm not saying make them common or even uncommon, just a little less rare.

Going back to topic... I'm a bit on the fence about this suggestion. Initially, my reaction was "why to modify rarity?" but I thought about 2013 as referenced on "CB metals everywhere" (https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=147470&hl=metals+everywhere) and I think that metals dropping as frequently as they were then - or just a bit less - wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

As far as breedings from spriter alts, why do they have to be traded for multiple cb metals?  A spriter alt cb owner could easily ask for 2nd gen prizes or just go with one cb gold + cb silver.

Sorry, I completely disagree. Nobody has the right to tell anybody else (including the spriters) what they should or shouldn't be asking for their eggs/hatchies.

[AGYK]

Going back to topic... I'm a bit on the fence about this suggestion. Initially, my reaction was "why to modify rarity?" but I thought about 2013 as referenced on "CB metals everywhere" (https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=147470&hl=metals+everywhere) and I think that  metals dropping as frequently as they were then - or just a bit less - wouldn't be a bad thing.

It'll happen eventually, I think. It's just a ratios thing. But be careful what you wish for... seasonals were rarer than metallics during the 2012 metallic glut, to the point that some people literally posted "have CB seasonal want CB metal" in trade threads. The ratios in general sort of flipped upside down.

 

I suppose TJ could just increase the metal ratio, but I suspect this in and of itself would be enough to cause chaos in the ratios in general since everything else would get relatively rarer. Even then, people would still script and people would still complain about the rarity of this or that. Not everything is meant to be a common, and the shifting ratios do a pretty decent job (imho) of swapping rarities back and forth.

 

Also, for what it's worth, making metals more common would drive down their value. The same people who are frustrated by needing to trade 3:1 or 4:1 for a 2nd-gen prize will presumably not be happy when golds are common and that trade becomes 6:1 or 8:1.

 

A spriter alt cb owner could easily ask for 2nd gen prizes or just go with one cb gold + cb silver.

They could. But that's their decision, much the same as it's our decision whether to trade Neglecteds for 2nd-gen prizes or CB metals or Holly IOUs or whathaveyou.

 

Also, I truly believe the intention with TJ putting out a large number of CB Prizes this year was to make breedings from them obtainable to everybody, but it doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

Depends on what you mean by "breedings". As you go down the generations, breedings get exponentially more common. 5th-gens go for a song. 4th-gens pretty much go for a song. Even 3rd-gens are easy to trade for; I've traded a single ND for 3 3rd-gens, and I never get worse than 1:1 with a ND for 3rd-gen prize trade. It's just the 2nd-gens that are hard to come by, and I blame trading policies (a lot of people are only trading for other 2nd-gens) for that.

[_Sin_]

It'll happen eventually, I think. It's just a ratios thing. But be careful what you wish for... seasonals were rarer than metallics during the 2012 metallic glut, to the point that some people literally posted "have CB seasonal want CB metal" in trade threads. The ratios in general sort of flipped upside down.

 

I suppose TJ could just increase the metal ratio, but I suspect this in and of itself would be enough to cause chaos in the ratios in general since everything else would get relatively rarer. Even then, people would still script and people would still complain about the rarity of this or that. Not everything is meant to be a common, and the shifting ratios do a pretty decent job (imho) of swapping rarities back and forth.

 

Also, for what it's worth, making metals more common would drive down their value. The same people who are frustrated by needing to trade 3:1 or 4:1 for a 2nd-gen prize will presumably not be happy when golds are common and that trade becomes 6:1 or 8:1.

You're right. As I said, I'm a bit on the fence on this one. I was thinking along the lines of what happened on 2013. Something temporary. Dropping frequency increased substantially during a quarter, decreased afterwards.

By the way, while I agree that the 6:1 or 8:1 would happen (did happen then but the prizes pool was quite smaller) there are people today expecting that 6:1 or 8:1 for their 2nd Gen Prizes.

[FiveSix]

Not everyone looking for metallics wants them for trades for 2G prizes - some people just want them to complete their scrolls, or for lineages. And if requests are going to go up into double digit numbers of things and metallics are more catchable the 2G prize sellers might vary the options in their requests since they're not going to get 'their worth' from a simple 2 or 3 egg trade anyway.

 

I'm still a bit concerned about what it would do to other rare-ish eggs, and feel like it's more important to bring Coppers and Pyralspites back to where they should be.

[demonicvampiregirl]

Even when I use to cave hunt almost all the time I have only seem maybe 10 total in the amount of time I've been here and actively played. I may be wrong but either way it would be nice to see them more frequently.

[Mistress of Whispers]

Imo the problem is the huge gap between un/common and rare. That makes CB golds, silvers, almandines and spessartines the only 'hard' currency in addition to neglected and 2-3G prizes. Anyone not able to offer those, is dependent on luck (i.e. having the lineage a trader is looking for at that time) or offering an IOU for masses of hatchlings (I've seen people have to offer 50). That makes the market, and by extension the game, rather lopsided. If rares were a little less rare, maybe non-rare trades would up in value and open up the market a bit more.

 

/.02

 

Sidenote: if Coppers, Almandines and spessartines were indeed not intended to be (super) rare, an adjustment of their drop ratio might be in order.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

As far as breedings from spriter alts, why do they have to be traded for multiple cb metals?  A spriter alt cb owner could easily ask for 2nd gen prizes or just go with one cb gold + cb silver.

This is true - every spriter I have asked for a 2 gen has either not answered at all (fair enough), said sadly that their dragon only breeds with x breed (also fair enough !) or bred me one just like that. ONE spriter asked for two bred eggs in return - easy ones. Of all the trades running I think 2 gen from spriter alts are the lease of the "issues" - I've never seen a spriter ask for multiple metals - though I agree with those who have said - rightly -that they have that absolute right !

 

But a teeny aside - are jungle anagallis eggs supposed to be so much "rarer" than the others ?

 

I just "need" one more CB gold to have two pair (of course, I'd LIKE 4 breeding pairs, like so many !) - but - well, if I managed a neglected I'd KEEP it !

Edited May 15, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[Ruby Eyes]

I think this thread could be renamed to "General rarity issues" by now.

[49ER]

I am confused, do you support the limits? Because it seems like you meant to say you didnt but I am not sure.

 

Yes, I am saying I still support the limit, I just doubt that it will be implemented.

 

I am not telling people what they can trade spriter alts for or 2nd gen prizes for, that is their choice. But as someone who no cb's of either, I don't think the choice of "ONLY" getting one of each cb metal is the worst thing in the world, if some day I were to win a prize. I would probably keep 2nd gens and trade 3rd gens for that, or 2nd gen thuweds, or other 2nd gen prizes, or 2nd gen spriter alts, or extra halloween hatchies--lots of possibilities.

[olympe]

Personally, I've suggested a lesser rarities for rares at least once, if not several times. However, the tenor always was that "rares are rare for a reason", whatever that reason might be. (People didn't care to enlighten me about that for a reason...)

 

However, considering how some people seem to be able to nab pretty much every single rare there is in the biomes, I think that an in-cave shop where everyone else at least has the option to actually save up for the occasional rare is the best way to go about things. At the very least, it will level the playing field somewhat, scripts or no scripts.

Edited May 15, 2015 by olympe

[rabbithaver]

Perhaps adding a permanent second row of eggs would be ideal? I think it'd be easier to find rares that way.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Personally, I've suggested a lesser rarities for rares at least once, if not several times. However, the tenor always was that "rares are rare for a reason", whatever that reason might be. (People didn't care to enlighten me about that for a reason...)

 

However, considering how some people seem to be able to nab pretty much every single rare there is in the biomes, I think that an in-cave shop where everyone else at least has the option to actually save up for the occasional rare is the best way to go about things. At the very least, it will level the playing field somewhat, scripts or no scripts.

Making rares less rare defeats the purpose. If everyone can get them without much trouble, then no one cares much about collecting them at all, and they join the dozens of other breeds on DC that just kinda sit there being ignored. Plus, if rares weren't all that rare, then getting them would be self-defeating: their offspring would be worth squat and good luck trading them for exceptional things like 2g Hollies / Prizes / Thuweds / what have you.

 

I do think the idea of a way long term players can slowly build up to getting CB Metals would be nice, though. Doling out a CB Gold / CB Silver every year to active players is hardly going to crash the system, imo.

[AGYK]

Perhaps adding a permanent second row of eggs would be ideal? I think it'd be easier to find rares that way.

I could get behind this. A second row of eggs wouldn't just give better chances at rares, it would give better chances at everything so even someone hunting for a specific common wouldn't get blocked by a motionless biome with 2 people sitting in it.

 

I do think the idea of a way long term players can slowly build up to getting CB Metals would be nice, though. Doling out a CB Gold / CB Silver every year to active players is hardly going to crash the system, imo.

This actually doesn't sound bad at all, especially if TJ handed them out at the same time as the raffle prizes are given. A lot of people are unhappy when they lose the raffle; a CB metal would make a pretty nice consolation prize imo.

[Mistress of Whispers]

Plus, if rares weren't all that rare, then getting them would be self-defeating: their offspring would be worth squat and good luck trading them for exceptional things like 2g Hollies / Prizes / Thuweds / what have you.

Is that a bad thing though? If CB Metals lose some of their trade value, 2G Prizes and Hollies might be traded for reasonable batches of hatchlings, pretty lineages, etc. It would open the high-level market to more players than just those who can catch Metals. I'd welcome a more level-fielded market tbh.

[Ribombee]

Is that a bad thing though? If CB Metals lose some of their trade value, 2G Prizes and Hollies might be traded for reasonable batches of hatchlings, pretty lineages, etc. It would open the high-level market to more players than just those who can catch Metals. I'd welcome a more level-fielded market tbh.

While this sounds plausible in discussion, in reality it may not work that way. If people can get all the golds they want in one go (and frankly, prize owners already can get them pretty fast. I just did recently), having rares be devalued isn't going to help her 2G prizes. Prize owners will likely just do more prize swaps instead, putting less out into the general public. I have all the golds I need for a while now, and my focus is prize swaps, sprinter alt offspring, and 2G hollies. I can get the hatchies and other lineages I want with third gens and metal 2nd gens. Now, that's not to say I won't still put some babies into circulation, because I always want more silvers for my lineages. However, many people aren't as obsessed about perfect lineages as I am and don't need massive metal armies to make the bases.

 

Just a thought. I actually do somewhat support the idea, though we might just be in a bit of a natural glut right now.

[Syphoneira]

Lol, it used to be, at least for a while, that with reasonable time and effort, anyone could eventually catch any dragon in the Cave, and see them on a fairly regular basis.

 

That way, when you do catch a harder-to-come-by one, it's a thrill - rather than not even seeing them and perhaps never catching any at all and being shut out of various lineages, which is NOT fun for most of us.

 

 

I'm lucky in that I joined at a time when the Cave moved and when even people on antique computers could catch the odd Gold and Silver; lucky in that wonderful people who are fast have gifted me dragons I can no longer even see in the Cave, even on what was my first (and probably last, lol,) brand-new computer, bought only a year and a half? ago; lucky that I usually have enough dragons to get by on, for incoming lineages.

 

And I feel sorry as all heck for slower people starting now.

 

 

A challenge is something one can overcome - a set-up for perpetual fail isn't.

 

And the more rare/in demand any dragons is, the faster the fastest will snatch them up - often as currency/trade fodder, rather than because they want or need the sprites themselves - and the more likely cheaters are to risk scripting, making the already rare more rare until they seem to have become extinct, when it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle which must be broken by some new/outside factor.

 

 

And we also get back to Suggestions like sending Cave Blockers to the AP at every shuffle to balance the ratios, because LOTS of people like myself will pork out on Incuhatchables and ERs and will then take CB Commons we wouldn't have room for as full-time eggs, which Suggestion would gradually increase Cave movement and variety in Cave appearance of eggs.

 

 

 

If the metallics are actually still Dropping at rates overall similar to those I encountered in my first months here, where they were seen fairly commonly and could eventually be caught with enough time and effort by just about anyone not on dial-up or badly disabled, but are being snatched up so quickly as to be unseen by the very fast and those using scripts, these are not normal circumstances.

 

The same goes for Pyralspites, even as Coppers, likewise affected, somewhat begin to recover, having been to some extent replaced by the latter as absolute top-level trade fodder, so that they can be seen and even sometimes caught by regular people.

 

This extreme situation is predominately due to the scarcity of low-gen offspring from the Prizes, a circumstance much relieved by the increased numbers of CBs TJ distributed in the last drawing, to the great improvement of the site atmosphere.

 

Yet the cycle is still in motion and people who have been here 6 or more years may have no CB Golds/Silvers and be unable to continue lineages as a result, while Pyralspites are impossible to come by for most.

 

 

Rares are one thing - metallics have always been rarer than Commons and unCommons - but extreme rares are not beneficial to the site or the game, as the great bulk of players do not come here to be unable to catch dragons or continue lineages, and after a certain point, may not come here much at all, especially during lengthy periods without New Releases.

 

So even if the Drop rate would be satisfactory if not for the scripters and the aforementioned trade fodder issues, it is certainly not satisfactory now.

 

Neither is the state of the slow-moving biomes, loaded with excessive numbers of specific dragon types, which many members will only take as Incuhatchables/ERs, so that many less-Common sprites rarely show.

 

So the player-responsive fix of shuffling untaken biome eggs to the AP would, albeit gradually, help in multiple areas.

 

But having gained a better understanding of the probable extent of the issues involved, I'd personally support also an increase in current rares (whether actually or incidentally rare, due to circumstance) sufficient to bring the trade value of such rares down to a point where scripting is no longer sufficiently worth-while to risk scroll-burning and the loss of all dragons, and so that trade can at least partially revert to the previous norm, (rather than the stock-broker-type system/mind-set which resulted from an initial scarcity,) where dragons are again valued for themselves, and not merely as what they'll buy.

 

 

We seriously don't need extreme rares that people can't get with reasonable time and effort; we need a steady influx of new regular dragonz! to give us new goals and excitement and a Cave that we can actually hunt in - which moves and shows variety - to give interest and an actual sense of achievement to those playing the game.

 

 

Prizes don't have to be valued through the roof - and owners can decide what they'd like to do with the offspring.

 

But if everything else has a closer relative value, Prize owners'll still get good prices *relative to everything else* for the offspring of what was a lucky win of a special dragon, probably more intended to be valued for itself than to form the financial center of a dragon-collecting site, or to essentially determine (incidentally or not) which other dragons may be more or less accessible to the other members on the site.

 

I'd say that most Prize winners, being members randomly gifted as they are from among us all and therefore representative of the group overall, are probably reasonable human beings, are happy to have won, and to be able to get better trades than would be offered for anything else without asking for the full moon many will never reach anyway.

 

 

Just saw and totally agree with Mistress of Whispers.

[_Sin_]

I keep being on the fence on the subject. While I really would like to see an increase on the rares dropping frequency, I must agree with harlequinraven. If the rares are less rare, their value will be devalued and the CB prize owners will just focus more on prize swaps.

People keep referencing metals but, from a trading point of view, the value of CB metals is decreasing and decreasing, the value of 3rd Gen Prizes is doing even worse and everything else follows. Don't take this the wrong way but the CB prize owners own also the "trading economy" of DC.

If people had more chances of adding low gen Prizes to their scroll they wouldn't spend all day and night in the biomes and other unsavory behaviors would be avoided. I know that 600 prizes sound like a lot but I think we need more. They would still swap but maybe a few more crumbles would get to common mortals.

[Mistress of Whispers]

I must agree with harlequinraven. If the rares are less rare, their value will be devalued and the CB prize owners will just focus more on prize swaps.

For most players, it makes no difference if prize owners trade for CB Metals, 2G Hollies or Prize Swap - all of those are out of their reach. We could at least make it so getting a CB Metal (or Spyralspite) for their own scroll is not.

 

The dominance of CB Prize owners over the DC market is a matter for another thread, I think. That has been a matter of discussion for years and imo you are right that merely upping the number of Prizes does not solve it.

[AGYK]

For most players, it makes no difference if prize owners trade for CB Metals, 2G Hollies or Prize Swap - all of those are out of their reach. We could at least make it so getting a CB Metal (or Spyralspite) for their own scroll is not.

This I can agree to.

 

Out of curiosity, were Pyrals meant to be rares? I thought they were supposed to be uncommons?

[FiveSix]

Pyrals are supposed to be uncommons I think, and overall they are about there, but Pyropes are super common and the others are super rare. I have a theory about why that is but I sort of think if my theory were true TJ would have 'fixed' it because it should be a simple fix.

[Ribombee]

For most players, it makes no difference if prize owners trade for CB Metals, 2G Hollies or Prize Swap - all of those are out of their reach. We could at least make it so getting a CB Metal (or Spyralspite) for their own scroll is not.

 

The dominance of CB Prize owners over the DC market is a matter for another thread, I think. That has been a matter of discussion for years and imo you are right that merely upping the number of Prizes does not solve it.

That is true and definitely a good thing, but my post was in reference to this line of yours.

 

2G Prizes and Hollies might be traded for reasonable batches of hatchlings

 

Just so nothing is taken out of context. Again, I do support the idea. As a prize owner, I also agree with Syphoneira that there are definitely some very nice people among us. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I have given away one 2nd gen and a few third gens so far to people who wouldn't otherwise be able to get low gen prizes easily. I tend to spot people in the forums who are nice, polite, and helpful individuals and just offer them something nice. That, to me, is the best part about being a prize owner. Once I got a CB of everything I could, my main goal in the game has been to create lineages to give away to people in the departures thread. It makes me very happy to make someone else's day on here.

 

That being said, when I DO trade a prize for metals, I am going to always try for the best offer I can get. It is a hot commodity, and there are people who will trade a lot for them. In turn, these help me have more to offer other people who need whatever they need for lineages. I'll very frequently trade a 2nd gen metal for a few easy-to-breed lineages. There is a trickle down effect, at least from me. Increasing the rares might increase this trickle down effect. It might not. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and state that, even though I support the idea, there may be unintended consequences.

[Syphoneira]

I keep being on the fence on the subject. While I really would like to see an increase on the rares dropping frequency, I must agree with harlequinraven. If the rares are less rare, their value will be devalued and the CB prize owners will just focus more on prize swaps.

People keep referencing metals but,  from a trading point of view,  the value of CB metals is decreasing and decreasing, the value of 3rd Gen Prizes is doing even worse and everything else follows.  Don't take this the wrong way but the CB prize owners own also the "trading economy" of DC.

If people had more chances of adding low gen Prizes to their scroll they wouldn't spend all day and night in the biomes and other unsavory behaviors would be avoided.  I know that 600 prizes sound like a lot but I think we need more. They would still swap but maybe a few more crumbles would get to common mortals.

 

 

 

But if we're trading for dragons we want, is it maintaining a disproportionately high trade value for a few egg sprites that's the imperative, or the value we place on the dragon and the ability of the general membership to be able to obtain what they need to be getting on with things?

 

I'd expect that Prize owners would anyway be pretty much focused on blood-swapping for other 2nd gens anyway - that increases not just their collection but their breeding pool, giving them more to gift or trade in the long run, and at the typical rate of production of lower gens, that's just sensible.

 

From the viewpoint of members who just want to collect/breed dragons, bringing the 'economy' to a level where pretty much everyone can participate is a return to an ideal.

 

Honestly, if everyone had one or more of each CB Prize, we'd all be swapping like mad - interest in acquiring different lines would certainly not die because they're beautiful sprites and the motivation for unsavoury behaviours would dissipate, because everyone would be dealing on a similar level and focussed on the dragons rather than trade values and what any given dragon would buy.

 

I happen to think that that scenario would be a lot more productive and fun than the current situation where many of those without one particular type of dragon must also be unable to access others they might need for lineages/scroll completion because they're considered to be virtually the only valuable enough trade fodder for offspring of that one particular type of dragon by those either capable of catching that 'trade fodder' or willing to cheat to get them.

 

However, to duck back into reality, with more 3rd gens available, some of us feel that the drop in 'trade value' is wonderful, because having some of those, we can then at least produce more 4th gens, which still make pretty nice gifts at least among those of us not able to produce many or any 3rd gens ourselves.

 

The fact is, massively profiting from trades forms a major (and recent) imperative to only really a relatively small area within what's long since become a rather complex game, even though this affects virtually all of it - and the more even the playing field, the more progress we all make over it.

[Predat0rs]

Something I will add is I have seen more Silvers than Almandines/Spessartines while hunting the past couple days. I have only seen one Spessartine (thankfully got it), but otherwise that's it. I'm aware Silvers appear in every biome, but I was specifically hunting the Almandine/Spessartine biomes and still saw more Silvers.

Edited May 15, 2015 by predatorfan4ever

[AnanoKimi]

Can I make a mention as well that not everyone is into lineages? I personally don't really care for lineages unless I personally create them. My affinity for lets say thuweds, spriters alts, and other 2nd gen prizes is the collector aspect of me.

 

Being able to trade for multiple CB metals allows me to come closer to personal breeding and collecting goals more than anything. Should CB metals lets say become uncommon and very easily attainable, then I would probably hunker down to simply gifting my 2nd gens to those I personally feel like gifting to and prize swaps. I would only trade for non rares should I really need non rares in large quantities. That being said anyone that came to me with "I have this 10th gen blah blah linage baby and like 3 other pretty lineage babies of varying generations" I would have to turn them down. It can be the most gorgeous pattern you could think of, I don't really care and those have little to no value to me and I feel no urge to collect them.

 

On the topic of chaing the rarity of Metals, Adding a second row, decreasing their rarity slightly, etc, we are still faced with the issue of multi scrollers and scripters. Theonly way to combat that is to make metals super common and available to everyone from the get go. Destrying their rarity is the only way to ensure that those who catch them non stop without giving a chance to anyone else can turn their sights on something else. Should that happen though there is the possibility that they will then loose the interest of the community once the community fills up and soon realizes how common and devalued they are. Everyone will have one or the ability to have one and as such no one will want one.

 

So really I'm not entirely sure what can be done. Cheaters will always cheat no matter how we try to turn the tide in our favor. Should their rarity decrease a bit there is no guarantee that they will be any easier to catch than they are now. Given it is worth a shot.