Make CB Golds **slighty** less rare

[_Sin_]

It is the case that there were, this morning, 7 CB gold eggs on one scroll - 4 with 4 days 6 hours to go and 3 with 4 days 13 hours. The scroll is now hidden, or I'd show you.

I don't doubt that you saw that but that's 7 in one day, not in one hour. I saw similar scrolls, in particular when owners were creating NDs or owned low gen Prizes. Your description could fit also two hunting sessions with an interval of 7 hours.

 

 

 

Edited to avoid suggesting bad stuff to people.

Edited May 14, 2015 by _Sin_

[olympe]

Still, 4 CB golds within one hour? I haven't caught that many in 5 years, and I don't usually even see that many CB golds in a year, except 2013.

 

And then another such run a couple of hours later?

 

The other problem with reporting this kind of thing is that it's very hard to actually prove that someone uses scripts, even if they have scrolls like the one fuzzbucket saw. All they'd have to do is claim that they caught their CB golds honestly.

[Ribombee]

While some instances are clearly suspicious (and those should definitely be reported), just having a lot of CB metals on a scroll is not necessarily an indication of cheating. Even if someone does not have any other dragons of great worth (such as a prize owner or an experimenter might), there are people who catch a CB metal then trade someone for a fresh-off-cooldown CB metal as soon as it gets lower time or hatches. By doing this, they can keep catching CB metals over time and build up over time. By doing this, even someone who only catches a CB metal once a month could still build up a small army of CB metal eggs and hatchies. There's nothing cheating about that. It's smart playing for those who want to be able to trade up for something like a 2nd gen prize or 2nd gen holly.

 

Restricting the number of CB metals growing on a scroll would really hurt these people, as well as affecting the people who do have CB prizes, hollies, etc. For that matter, it might well hurt people who currently have no metals. It is a low chance, but it is possible that someone who had never caught a metal before would catch two in the same day. I've caught multiple silvers in a single week before. It was an incredibly lucky week for me, but it does happen.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a slight increase in the ratios of CB metals (I don't really mind either way, to be honest), but that would not stop the issues, anyway.

[Ylvanne]

Still, 4 CB golds within one hour? I haven't caught that many in 5 years, and I don't usually even see that many CB golds in a year, except 2013.

 

And then another such run a couple of hours later?

 

The other problem with reporting this kind of thing is that it's very hard to actually prove that someone uses scripts, even if they have scrolls like the one fuzzbucket saw. All they'd have to do is claim that they caught their CB golds honestly.

But wouldn't TJ be able to identify them?

I mean... There some scrolls that have been burned because of that.

In fact, I think I ended up trading with someone that cheated the way you mentioned T_T

I got 1 CB Gold and their scroll got burned and never got a PM again D:

[Syphoneira]

I've seen - and missed - one Gold and one Silver recently, the first of either I've seen in the Cave for I don't even know how long, the Gold I think (? caveat - lousy memory, not yet much coffee, bad combo) being the first one in well over a year - I've seen a total of no Orange and two Pink Pyralspites ever in the Cave.

 

But I am totally, utterly and absolutely against legitimately fast/lucky catchers and traders and breeders being penalized because some people cheat.

 

I am very much for such cheaters being caught and banned, for untaken eggs to be bunged directly into the AP to help balance the ratios and for anything that helps, but as stated, such limits would result only in cheaters having even more scrolls and everyone else potentially losing legitimately caught eggs, eggs they would have bred or could have traded for.

 

I actually know someone who's an amazingly fast catcher, who's often just set out to catch several CB Golds and done it in very short order - but even she has been upset about the scripters for a very long time during various periods, especially regarding the low-gen Hollies this last Christmas.

 

Dealing with those, if at all possible, would certainly help.

 

And adopting the Suggestion of dropping of untaken Cave eggs to the AP during each shuffle to improve the ratios WOULD, according to the limited understanding we have, gradually increase the ratio of rares dropped, along with the increasing movement of eggs, so that more variety would show, more people would hunt and have a chance of seeing, maybe even catching, some of the more elusive dragons they nonetheless need for lineages/scroll completion.

 

 

Edit: also - extreme scarcity is what makes cheating - and the ultimate certainty of having probably all scrolls burnt at some point - worth-while for some, and it doesn't take that many, relatively speaking, to foul us all up.

 

It was the desperation for 2nd gen Prizes from a very limited source which drove Golds into essentially the only currency increasing chances of people getting on any lists and their heightened worth *not as dragons needed for themselves or for lineages but specifically as 'trade fodder'* made them essential in far larger quantities to far more people, and the more they were gathered as trade fodder, the rarer they became and the more worth-while scripting became - making them effectively extinct for regular members.

 

As prices for lower-gen Prizes gradually normalizes more, and as more Prize owners start looking for trades other than CB metals, that should also help to gradually alleviate that problem as the rewards for cheating diminish while the inevitable results remain, and we can hope that this will also ultimately work for Pyralspites, apparently NOT intended to be rare.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Jazeki]

But then you're interfering with lineage hunters. I only go to the AP when I want to pick up lineaged eggs; I don't want a bunch of CBs making that far more difficult. It'd be great if there was a separate AP for CBs versus bred eggs, though. I acknowledge the good that suggestion will do, but as it stands I think it'll hurt the AP for a decent number of people too.

I don't think it interferes with anything. The lineaged eggs will still be there. The CB eggs will still be there. Everything will still appear in the AP according to when it was bred/created. I mostly hunt the AP for low time CB dragons during the year, but I don't claim that lineaged dragons in the AP interfere with my CB hunting.

[_Sin_]

But wouldn't TJ be able to identify them?

I mean... There some scrolls that have been burned because of that.

In fact, I think I ended up trading with someone that cheated the way you mentioned T_T

I got 1 CB Gold and their scroll got burned and never got a PM again D:

The issue is that scripts emulate human behavior: refresh the page, recognize the rare, catch. How do you make a distinction between human and script?

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction this thread is going: I'm afraid that the outcome will be that players that so far weren't considering scripts, will be looking for and installing them.

[Syphoneira]

The issue is that scripts emulate human behavior: refresh the page, recognize the rare, catch. How do you make a distinction between human and script?

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction this thread is going: I'm afraid that the outcome will be that players that so far weren't considering scripts, will be looking for and installing them.

 

 

 

I'd think that most people - even those who would consider cheating acceptable *when they/their friends do it* - who actually care about the game and have time and effort invested in irreplaceable dragons would not be willing to risk losing years of everything they've ever done just to add a few more dragons to their thereby prospectively burnt scrolls.

 

Especially once everyone's aware that this is going on and will be likely to notice the signs.

[_Sin_]

 

 

I'd think that most people - even those who would consider cheating acceptable *when they/their friends do it* - who actually care about the game and have time and effort invested in irreplaceable dragons would not be willing to risk losing years of everything they've ever done just to add a few more dragons to their thereby prospectively burnt scrolls.

 

Especially once everyone's aware that this is going on and will be likely to notice the signs.

Agreed. I was thinking mostly about new players, they have quite less to lose. Long time players know enough about the subject

[AGYK]

The issue is that scripts emulate human behavior: refresh the page, recognize the rare, catch. How do you make a distinction between human and script?

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction this thread is going: I'm afraid that the outcome will be that players that so far weren't considering scripts, will be looking for and installing them.

There are certain ways you could trap a script. However, script authors could work around them. It's ultimately a giant game of cat-and-mouse with definite potential for both sides to screw over the normal players. I'm sure TJ does the best he can.

 

Agreed about the direction of the thread. I don't think script discussion isn't exactly a healthy thing. (Site precedent also suggests caution - Neglected discussion was forbidden because it encouraged multiscrolling. This seems to be in the same vein.)

[Odeen]

The issue is that scripts emulate human behavior: refresh the page, recognize the rare, catch. How do you make a distinction between human and script?

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction this thread is going: I'm afraid that the outcome will be that players that so far weren't considering scripts, will be looking for and installing them.

Scripts emulate human behavior, but generally not human inconsistency or speed. These things can be detected.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The issue is that scripts emulate human behavior: refresh the page, recognize the rare, catch. How do you make a distinction between human and script?

I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the direction this thread is going: I'm afraid that the outcome will be that players that so far weren't considering scripts, will be looking for and installing them.

If someone nabs every single CB Gold that drops within a given timeframe, all at extremely high speeds, you can generally tell that something unusual is going on. <___<

[Esko]

If someone nabs every single CB Gold that drops within a given timeframe, all at extremely high speeds, you can generally tell that something unusual is going on. <___<

Pretty much. Nobody who is not a cheater can catch THAT many in one sitting. I have rather good internet, and I do not even have that speed. I only saw a Gold in the cave, like, once since when I joined in early December. I even have an iPad, which is a smaller screen and easier to nab rares (sort of) and I cannot match that speed.

 

I know somebody who finds rares and even HE cannot catch most of the ones he sees. If he did, I would know something was up. Normal humans cannot match the speed and skill, so how could somebody without a machine do it?

 

Seeing this, it might be pretty easy to find the offending scrolls. But that is just me

[beautifuldragon5000]

here's my opinion on this whole thing, I see CB metals constantly but my hands are damaged to the point I am not a fast enough clicker. I don't see adjustments being needed just because I do have good and bad days with the game, recent example of good day: caught two CB tan ridgewings within 60 seconds of each other. Another example: caught a 2nd gen RA prize fail on vday and swapped it back to the owner for a spot on their shiny list. Bad day: Missed 15 CB golds and Silvers in 12 hour period. all games have omg this is freaking awesome moments or darn this is a total drag moments but that is what keeps most long term players coming back for more.

 

like all my alt blacks except one I caught at a time when it was more common for blacks to alt than be normal I simply took advantage of the time of plenty and focused on collecting the alt babies while I could get them easily. I think this is simply a matter of that for most players and no adjustments need to be made.

 

as far as scripters and multi scrollers, I don't have an opinion on that considering I had no idea you could even create catching scripts in the first place, multi scrollers should be reported to the mods plain and simple.

 

EDIT: Esko the wolf, I used to know someone without mechanical help would could catch at least 2-3 CB metals a day so its not as clearly cut and dry as you make it sound. He was a generous person thankfully and gifted most of the metals to people so it worked out in the end.

Edited May 14, 2015 by beautifuldragon5000

[49ER]

I think this does need to be discussed, and out in the open. The fact is, the CB Metals are not that rare....for a few people. To see some scrolls you would think cb metals are common.

 

And there have been situations where CB Neglecteds are getting 4 cb golds offered, which is an insanely high amount to trade, being that even in the early days of ND making, they did not get that many. The only reason I can think of is if the person is catching them in their sleep (literally) and they don't mean much to them then.

 

I really hope TJ does do what he can to find these people who are doing this because it has gotten worst than I have ever seen. I think I know who Fuzzbucket was referring to, and I have seen those have at least 10 caught at same time, in different biomes. Even the most diligent human could not possibly be in all biomes and never miss a gold. I do support the idea of making a limit to how many you can have growing on scroll at one time, because multis seem to be easier to catch then scripters, and maybe it would level the playing field on trading.

 

As far as encouraging cheating, I do not think this will change people's nature, either way. But for me, I value my scroll way too much to risk it being burnt. Not just for the neglecteds or rares, but for the things that have sentimental value to me or funny stories behind them.

 

And if something is done about the scripting, then the metals will be there for others to see and have a chance at.

[Tehya Faye]

I don't think it interferes with anything. The lineaged eggs will still be there. The CB eggs will still be there. Everything will still appear in the AP according to when it was bred/created. I mostly hunt the AP for low time CB dragons during the year, but I don't claim that lineaged dragons in the AP interfere with my CB hunting.

The number of bred eggs in the AP won't increase in proportion to the number of CB eggs in the AP. This would make finding those bred eggs much more difficult than it is now. Not to mention the psychological impact it'll have...yes, I'm very unlikely now to find a pgymy with the lineage I want, but think about how much more disheartening it'll be when I see dozens of CB pygmies and the one bred one I happened to find was just some messy. I already hate AP hunting, this suggestion would just make it all worse because all the eggs that are normally in the AP would be lightly sprinkled among all the CBs I have no interest in.

[Obscure_Trash]

I understand that scripting will naturally be a part of this conversation, but I do not want to see this dicussion focused on scripting. Let TJ worry about what's possible to catch scripting-wise and about if a suggestion will benefit scripters so much it wouldn't be worth it to implement the suggestion. If there's something that needs considered, he'll post about it. ^^

[Jazeki]

The number of bred eggs in the AP won't increase in proportion to the number of CB eggs in the AP. This would make finding those bred eggs much more difficult than it is now. Not to mention the psychological impact it'll have...yes, I'm very unlikely now to find a pgymy with the lineage I want, but think about how much more disheartening it'll be when I see dozens of CB pygmies and the one bred one I happened to find was just some messy. I already hate AP hunting, this suggestion would just make it all worse because all the eggs that are normally in the AP would be lightly sprinkled among all the CBs I have no interest in.

The AP is not just for lineages. It's for abandoned, unwanted eggs regardless of whether they are caveborn or not. We actually have no idea how many eggs in the AP are bred and how many are CB. We also have no idea how many eggs get deleted in the 5 minute shuffles. It's just as likely that there will still be nice-lineaged eggs as messy ones if the shuffle to the AP were implemented. The idea is to have things cycle through the cave faster to facilitate hunting (so that people can see the rares and not have suggestions like this one). Ratios and rarity wouldn't be a concern if the cave moved.

[rabbithaver]

I've never seen a CB metallic in the cave, even when I was active back in 2008-2009. It feels like some people really are nabbing them all, but I don't understand how...

[Tehya Faye]

The AP is not just for lineages. It's for abandoned, unwanted eggs regardless of whether they are caveborn or not. We actually have no idea how many eggs in the AP are bred and how many are CB. We also have no idea how many eggs get deleted in the 5 minute shuffles. It's just as likely that there will still be nice-lineaged eggs as messy ones if the shuffle to the AP were implemented.  The idea is to have things cycle through the cave faster to facilitate hunting (so that people can see the rares and not have suggestions like this one). Ratios and rarity wouldn't be a concern if the cave moved.

I understand that the AP is not just for lineages, but shuffling a whole bunch of CBs in there would make finding those lineages even more difficult. They will be there, but you'll need to dedicate more time into finding them. It'll be absolutely horrific during the holidays, too. Most people AP hunt during that week, so the wall of eggs behind them will just get worse and worse...loads of eggs will die. Eggs already die back there during the holidays, but it'll be so much worse.

 

AP Hunting requires you to refresh the page constantly for a block of time. You can't watch a youtube video, you can't play a game, you can't work on assignments...it's just refreshing repeatedly while staring at a constantly shifting page. It's also very unlikely that you'll find that specific thing you are looking for. Tracking down a CB Ice in the Alpine? Easy. Tracking down any Ice in the AP, much less one that is actually something you're looking for? Good luck.

 

I personally wouldn't be that adversely affected by it since I'm on the forum, and it's easy enough to request specific lineages from breeders. People here are nice, and they'll be perfectly happy to help out if you aren't asking too much of them. Not everyone is, though, and I'm concerned about the people who will be adversely affected by this suggestion.

 

Edit: ...and I realize this is a little off topic. If you want to keep talking about this feel free to quote me in the other suggestion thread. I think it'll be useful there.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[dragongrrl]

I hunt the AP for lineages, but I also love it for the common and uncommon CBs, especially when the time is down around 5 days, 0 hours, since those are almost instant hatchlings. There are currently plenty of CBs, beautiful lineages and insanely messy lineages available any time I hunt. It's really a good mix, and I usually find something I really want pretty quickly.

 

But my 2 Gold and 2 Silver catches were all from the Cave. The Golds were caught in August of 2011, a total miracle catch since my hand-eye coordination is pretty slow, and, with a vastly improved internet connection, April of 2013, when there had been a surge in CB Gold numbers. I was gifted a pair of Golds two weeks earlier in the same surge. My two male Silvers came from a similar surge in early to mid December 2013, and my only female was a gift in 2012.

 

Yes, I would like at least 8 of each gender for my scroll goals. But it will take time. I rarely see one these days, don't think I've seen one since last June, and only one Silver with I couldn't catch, and I don't expect any gifts, considering that I already have more than many on the site. And a troublesome internet connection with site lag can make it near impossible here for many here to catch any rares. Tweaking the numbers might help some to catch a Gold. I am sure all my catches come from some adjustments TJ made at those times, since I know I'm not that fast. Tossing cheaters out of the Cave would help, too.

[Tehya Faye]

It's really a good mix, and I usually find something I really want pretty quickly.

I do like the mix we have now, which is why the suggestion scares me a lot. I'm pretty picky, so I get that most of my trouble in finding something I really really like is my fault. I'm just a little worried that the balance will swing too far in favor of CBs.

 

 

I can be online for really long stretches at a time, so I usually see at least one metallic a day in the caves. Whether I catch them or not is a different story. The Blockers to the AP suggestion will certainly help me see even more of them on average, but I can't help but think it'd be inconveniencing people who have all the CBs they need and are looking for nice lineaged eggs.

[Vhale]

I think I've had up to 4 CB metals on my scroll, back during the boom. I ended up giving all away but two to other Even genners. If a limit was put in place, it would penalize me but not multi-scrollers.

[Guillotine]

Honestly, given that the influx of CBs would mostly likely push the times in the AP down to at least being incuhatchable, you wouldn't have to worry much about CBs sticking around for too long. I at least tend to stalk the AP for common CBs that will take less time to hatch than biome ones; I imagine that others are similar, and it would at least make getting older commons shortly after a release easier.

 

Honestly I've never been able to find specific lineaged mates through the AP myself. It's either messies or neat lineages that don't match what I need.

 

But this is a discussion for a different thread I think.

[49ER]

After viewing both sides of it, I still support the limit.

The idea that a limit will make the scripters make more scrolls....what is to say they don't already have more now? Does anyone really believe they draw the line at scripting but won't make extra scrolls?

As far as breedings from spriter alts, why do they have to be traded for multiple cb metals? A spriter alt cb owner could easily ask for 2nd gen prizes or just go with one cb gold + cb silver. Most spriters I know breed and gift their common breedings, you just have to look at profiles to see if they have opening on list.

Also, I truly believe the intention with TJ putting out a large number of CB Prizes this year was to make breedings from them obtainable to everybody, but it doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

If I am lucky enough to catch one cb gold in cave, it still would not come close to being good enough to get a 2nd gen prize when there are others that can and will give much much more.

 

Anyway, I doubt this will be implemented, but I do think it is a good and viable idea and hope this does get seriously considered.