Twins, Triplets, Quadruptles & More?!

[Fuzzbucket]

And here we go with the massbreed scare again.

 

AP eggs dying is specific to holidays and only to holidays, because holiday eggs override normal AP mechanics where whatever that has the lowest time will show up. Massbreed walls follow normal AP rules and thus nothing in the backlog would have lower time than the visible wall (disregarding the automatic +1d on visible eggs that should have been removed long ago).

 

Comparing massbred walls to holiday walls is, frankly speaking, completely inappropriate.

This. Eggs do NOT die before hitting the front page - except at holidays.

 

Has ANYONE EVER seen - say - a gold egg that died over the holidays ?

[purplehaze]

ALSOI do have onequestion.Somepeople aresaying hat it wouldlead to more eggs dieing on the AP.

 

Iwonder how valid that arguement is.That is, howmany eggs CURRENTLY die there?

Zero! The eggs with the shortest time will rise to the top always and get grabbed before their time gets low enough for them to die.

 

The only exception to that is with the holiday wall of eggs. Holiday eggs rise to the top of the pile, leaving all the other eggs behind. I have bred and abandoned eggs just before the holiday breeding starts, only to see them die on the AP before they were ever seen. I will not make that mistake again.

 

But I repeat -- this is ONLY true for holiday times. It is not possible for eggs to die on the AP at any other time. Even if mass breeding with multi-clutching were to become a thing I doubt you could create a situation where it is possible.

 

I am not really in favor of multi clutches, but eggs dying on the AP is not an argument against them.

[CNR4806]

Zero! The eggs with the shortest time will rise to the top always and get grabbed before their time gets low enough for them to die.

 

The only exception to that is with the holiday wall of eggs. Holiday eggs rise to the top of the pile, leaving all the other eggs behind. I have bred and abandoned eggs just before the holiday breeding starts, only to see them die on the AP before they were ever seen. I will not make that mistake again.

 

But I repeat -- this is ONLY true for holiday times. It is not possible for eggs to die on the AP at any other time. Even if mass breeding with multi-clutching were to become a thing I doubt you could create a situation where it is possible.

 

I am not really in favor of multi clutches, but eggs dying on the AP is not an argument against them.

Theoretically, it is possible. You just have to spam the AP with so many eggs, people can't stop the tide of AP egg time going down even well into ER range. Once the visible time drops below 1d, things will start to die en masse in the backlog due to the +1d bonus only applying when the egg/hatchling becomes visible.

 

This would take a stupidly massive amount of effort and coordination in practice, of course, and would not happen naturally with ratios-regulated multiclutching.

[NotBambi]

While I'm substantially indifferent to the suggestion, I can't avoid giggling and hoping it would be implemented just for the consequences that would have on the trading market. People that have a license to print currency (aka CB Prizes) and can obtain today more or less everything they wish for would be a bit more affected than everybody else but the effects would be cascading. What's the real value of a 2nd, 3rd or 4th Gen Prize if there are a few siblings of it in the AP? Similar, but to a lesser degree, the same would be true for Alts, 2nd Gen metals etc. Could be fun, could even "cure" the market

[olympe]

That's why there is so much opposition. That and lineages that demand to have all offspring be treated a certain way.

[NotBambi]

That's why there is so much opposition.

Oh I'm aware of that, I just find wickedly funny that people that oppose for trading-related reasons don't just come out and state that clearly

[JavaTigress]

Thank you, Silverswift, you just remind me the best argument against "default multiclutch": mass breeding.

 

If one single user can produce alone a wall of, let's say, hundreds of neos, with only one egg being produced by each couple like it is now, I wonder what kind of wall one user who have hundreds of one single species of common (let's say neos) can produce with multiclutches being produced by default.

 

It's another good reason to multiclutch be only available under controlled conditions like a BSA and not by default.

 

Note: eggs dying in the Ap is an argument that people always use to be against the holiday walls, because lots of eggs never surface because of the wall and "die" before appear to be caught. The problem with massive multiclutch is that many desirable eggs will "die" (or vanish, or be deleted from the system if the metaphor of "death" of pixel eggs doesn't make you happy with the argument) because the mass breedings will be much worst than they are now since they will be easier to produce.

Actually, I would say that mass-breeding is NOT an arguement against multiclutches.

 

See, as I understand it, massbreeding , if done enough, will limit itself ( due to ratios). IF multi clutches were implemented in some form that took ratios into the equation, it would limit itself even FASTER, if anything. For one, I would THINK that as you bred more of a particular breed, the LESS likely you'd be first to get a multiclutch.... and then any egg at all from them.

 

I doubt if it would encourage any more mass breeding than already happens.

 

IF I am wrong on this someone correct.

[CNR4806]

Oh I'm aware of that, I just find wickedly funny that people that oppose for trading-related reasons don't just come out and state that clearly

Speaking of which, I do recall seeing this attitude being more openly-displayed in the prize-only multiclutch thread, that I do not want to link or bump because the prize debacle is reserved for Christmas.

 

People are too used to total control since the original deactivation of multiclutching and want to keep their iron fists.

 

Actually, I would say that mass-breeding is NOT an arguement against multiclutches.

 

See, as I understand it, massbreeding , if done enough, will limit itself ( due to ratios).  IF multi clutches were implemented in some form that took ratios into the equation, it would limit itself even FASTER, if anything. For one, I would THINK that as you bred more of a particular breed, the LESS likely you'd be first to get a multiclutch.... and then any egg at all from them.

 

I doubt if it would encourage any more mass breeding than already happens.

 

IF I am wrong on this someone correct.

AFAIK TJ had mentioned in the past that the updating of ratios is not instantaneous, though he has not mentioned the actual interval between updates. If you can breed a huge bunch of stuff in a short burst, it is theoretically possible to breed a large amount of eggs before the ratios can react.

 

That said, I don't see the harm of it.

Edited August 16, 2015 by CNR4806

[DarkEternity]

Multiclutches are fun.

[JavaTigress]

Speaking of which, I do recall seeing this attitude being more openly-displayed in the prize-only multiclutch thread, that I do not want to link or bump because the prize debacle is reserved for Christmas.

 

People are too used to total control since the original deactivation of multiclutching and want to keep their iron fists.

 

 

AFAIK TJ had mentioned in the past that the updating of ratios is not instantaneous, though he has not mentioned the actual interval between updates. If you can breed a huge bunch of stuff in a short burst, it is theoretically possible to breed a large amount of eggs before the ratios can react.

 

That said, I don't see the harm of it.

I don't REALLY see the harm in it either, though I get why some people find it annoying.

 

That said, well, I guess I learned something new. I always figured hthat ratios took a newly bred egg into account almost instantaneously. It is interesting to fnind out there is a lag there. THOUGH I would HAVE to think there can't be MUCH Of a one or else the ratios wouldn't be very useful.

 

As for the topic at hand... I suppose they don't come out and SAY it is because of trading because that makes the need to keep every egg LOOK like being greedy.

( AND I do get that not everyone that wants control over where there egg goes does so for that reason)>

[ParticleSoup]

I always figured hthat ratios took a newly bred egg into account almost instantaneously. It is interesting to fnind out there is a lag there. THOUGH I would HAVE to think there can't be MUCH Of a one or else the ratios wouldn't be very useful.

 

This is because the dragons don't count towards ratios until they're done growing(frozen/adult). And I think each dragon only counts for one year, iirc.

 

Anywho, I don't really have much of an opinion on this.. I liked multiclutches while they were a thing, but now I'd find them unneccesary. Regardless, I wouldn't be upset if they were reimplemented.

[AnanoKimi]

While I'm substantially indifferent to the suggestion, I can't avoid giggling and hoping it would be implemented just for the consequences that would have on the trading market. People that have a license to print currency (aka CB Prizes) and can obtain today more or less everything they wish for would be a bit more affected than everybody else but the effects would be cascading. What's the real value of a 2nd, 3rd or 4th Gen Prize if there are a few siblings of it in the AP? Similar, but to a lesser degree, the same would be true for Alts, 2nd Gen metals etc. Could be fun, could even "cure" the market

 

I... Find this kind of rude... not everyone trades prizes or rares for substantial amounts of "rares" and that is a gigantically annoying stigma tacked on to all prize owners and rare hunters. Its honestly a tad ignorant to say something so broad and mostly untrue at this point. Not all prize owners trade for only rares because when people bitterly say "Prize owners trade for whatever they want" they literally just mean "Prize owners can trade for all the rares I cant get and really want".

 

It's annoying as well because I do my best to try and gift and trade my prizes with people who have little to none or I try to raffle them off in fun games that everyone can freely participate in. To want something just to spite someone else is really just cruel because it means you honestly give no cares about what sort of play style or plans that person has, the only thing that makes you happy is the utter frustration and disappointment of someone trying to get something done. That's like seeing that your coworker has it better than you for whatever reason and you do your best to trip them up at work and revel in their misery when something bad happens. Seriously dude.

 

Also, I know that the whole popularity for prizes is an issue, but its even worse to want a feature simply for the sake of messing someone up. I mean trust me prize trades annoy me as much as the next person, I want some xenowyrms and all the trades asking for 2nd gen prizes make me wanna punch people, but blaming the prize owners (including my self) and trying to screw them over isnt going to fix the issue. The way each prize owner uses their prize is not reflective of the prize owners as a whole, but at the same time is no business to you. If they want to use it to get rares, then go for it. If they want to gift, power to you. If they want to trade it for commons/uncommons they want/need, alrighty. If you don't wanna breed it at all hey go for it. Hell you want to freeze it or kill it be my guest, I and no one here are anyone to tell anyone else what to do with their dragons and how. Stop blaming the prize owners this far along into having raffles when its become clear its also a matter of user driven rarity and ratios that are at fault for some of the issues revolving the inability to catch certain breeds.

 

Finally and mainly, making Prizes multiclutch isn't going to fix a damn thing, its only going to make things worse. As is most prize owners who are still actively breeding are doing so every 7-8 days on the dot trying to produce shinies. The few that are produced and traded/gifted and grow up are added to the ratios, making it even harder to trade another shiny after that. Yet you basically want to make these dragons multi clutch for the sake of making it even more difficult for those actively breeding to even get a damn shiny out there to gift or trade and if they do multi clutch, even if the prize owner doesn't care for the the second produced egg, that's two shinies added to the ratios that are gonna screw everyone else trying to breed over.

 

So I would rather see multi clutches as an optional feature rather than a forced one. Back when DC had a smaller base and needed more dragons and collection purpose I see why multi clutching was a thing, but with the huge AP backlog, tons of new users, and hard to work with ratios, I don't think multilutching will really make anything better. Multiclutching would end up being something like refusals, annoying, archaic, and with no functional value to the game.

 

Now if you excuse me I have a lot to do and very little time. (edited to include an extra line and fix grammar.)

Edited August 16, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[NotBambi]

I think you should re-read my post. I didn't say anything about people trading for amounts of anything. I said that the people that today can obtain more or less everything they wish for, would be the most affected but the effects will cascade. My statement was broad but truthful and not rude. If you choose to see it as an attack, and in particular an attack directed to you, that says more about you than about me

[AnanoKimi]

I didnt take it as a personal attack, it was more of a "I am involved in this group and this group is seemingly being talked bad about and well thats annoying because this group isnt like that." I don't know if that makes sense.

 

Its still an issue of multiclutching wouldnt fix those problems of poeple getting "more or less everything they wish for" its only going to cause problems that cannot be fixed unless other issues are addressed.

 

Multi clutching would simply add more frustration to an already pretty frustrating game depending on where you look it at. My chaces of being able to breed a shiny from certain breeds is already pretty shotty. I would rather not have to not only deal with things I want specific people to have (such as friends and those who lack what I am offering) but with the fact that with evey multi clutched breeding to be had not only by me but by everyone else, we would essentially be messing up the ratios more than they already are and make it more of a nightmare to breed anything nice, much less breed it in a feasible amount of time.

 

Really that's my bigger issue with this topic. Your post just seemed and really sounded like every other post pointing fingers at prize owners and rare hunters for being able to get what they want because they have or are able to get something extremely coveted and that constant spiel that everyone seems to be on the bandwagon of is annoying.

[olympe]

Really that's my bigger issue with this topic. Your post just seemed and really sounded like every other post pointing fingers at prize owners and rare hunters for being able to get what they want because they have or are able to get something extremely coveted and that constant spiel that everyone seems to be on the bandwagon of is annoying.

I think NotBambi's post was kind of in response to some other things posted in this very thread. Like this:

I named my dragon a particular way because of that attachment, I name all his mates accordingly because of that attachment and its at least a minimum frigging courtesy that if I ask someone whom I'm trading with to try and follow the naming scheme, that they at least try to do so. I spent time trying to breed that egg, there is a small level of pride attached to the fact that after so long that egg exists, and I think its only fair that we get at least a minor say in how certain completely harmless things go down.

 

And it is due to this attachment that we would like to be able to control who our eggs go to for whatever the personal reason may be. Also, who the hell says I have to share? I dont have to share for squat. If I wanted to keep every single prize baby and nice thing I ever bred I am in my full right to do so. I Caught those draongs, I bred them, and absolutely no one will make me give up what I don't want to. You are in no right saying we should "share" because thats bull. If I want to keep my eggs then who are you to tell me I can't? No one, thats who.

It's this "Oh noez, someone random could get a 2nd egg and actually enjoy it without my express permission!" attitude that really grates on me. And I don't care whether this 'express permission" is bought with a gazillion CB rares, a raffle or due to being friends with someone, it's still the same control-freakish attitude, and I don't like it.

Edited August 16, 2015 by olympe

[Jazeki]

I don't think that if multiclutching were to become a thing that the majority of a given multiclutch from a prize would be prizes anyway. It'd be more likely that a person would only get one prize and the rest fails or no prizes and all fails anyway. And if you have a choice what to choose to keep, you'd probably choose to keep the prize anyway. I'm not sure how you can mess up a 2nd gen fail line, but I suppose that happens.

 

"You" is general.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's this "Oh noez, someone random could get a 2nd egg and actually enjoy it without my express permission!" attitude that really grates on me. And I don't care whether this 'express permission" is bought with a gazillion CB rares, a raffle or due to being friends with someone, it's still the same control-freakish attitude, and I don't like it.

Yes - this is what bugs me too. AnanoKimi, I know how generous you and most prize owners are - but it is a sad fact that people with SECOND gens (not actual winners; all of those I have had contact with have been loveliness itself !) can be very - um - DEMANDING. And very many of them do ask for huge numbers of CB golds and the like - I'm afraid there are far too many of us who have been asked for that kind of thing.

 

But no matter; Jaz is right -

It'd be more likely that a person would only get one prize and the rest fails or no prizes and all fails anyway.

 

What bugs me much more is the holiday owners who actually admit in threads that they don't breed just because they don't have TOTAL CONTROL of where their eggs go. And most of them say that because they want to keep them to trade with. So whatever else may happen, I certainly hope the autoing of holiday multis NEVER goes away, or that would get worse, I fear. More people would hold theirs so as not to lose out on trading when the greedy ones who haven't been breeding because of this could suddenly breed themselves a sheaf of good Hollies, and hold everyone else to ransom.

 

It's not many players - but a few is enough to leave nasty tastes in the mouth.

Edited August 16, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Yes - this is what bugs me too. AnanoKimi, I know how generous you and most prize owners are - but it is a sad fact that people with SECOND gens (not actual winners; all of those I have had contact with have been loveliness itself !) can be very - um - DEMANDING. And very many of them do ask for huge numbers of CB golds and the like - I'm afraid there are

Really? I must admit I got my two 2nd gens very cheaply - and usually gift them to either random people or people who helped me. The last egg was gifted, the two or three before that went to people who helped me out with a 2nd gen silver, before that - mostly gifts to friends and random people alike.

 

I really should try for some CB golds... Nah, not gonna happen.

[Fuzzbucket]

Really? I must admit I got my two 2nd gens very cheaply - and usually gift them to either random people or people who helped me. The last egg was gifted, the two or three before that went to people who helped me out with a 2nd gen silver, before that - mostly gifts to friends and random people alike.

 

I really should try for some CB golds... Nah, not gonna happen.

My 2 gen shim was a gift out of the blue, too. As I say - it isn't the PRIZE owners so much as the 2 gen owners - and I know you gift all over the place. AS do I - I don't think I have traded more than one - and that was because the other player asked me for a trade. Mostly I've glomped them.

[JavaTigress]

My 2 gen shim was a gift out of the blue, too. As I say - it isn't the PRIZE owners so much as the 2 gen owners - and I know you gift all over the place. AS do I - I don't think I have traded more than one - and that was because the other player asked me for a trade. Mostly I've glomped them.

AND even with the 2G owners,I have to add,it isn't ALL of them either ( THOUGH It may be more prevelent with them than with CB Prize owners). I wouldn't mind a sibling of offspring from one of MY 2Gs on the AP. I just wouldn't CARE. ( I DO trade with them, but I try to be reasonable( MINE were gifts,so I guess I don't have any reason to try to getmy 'trade's worth out of them)they are stingy enough with shinies to protect them from becoming 'money printers'.... AND I wouldn't view them COMPLETELY as that,anyhow.)

 

Just saying...not ALL.

 

 

 

[NotBambi]

Considering my experience so far, there's a bit of everything. From CB Prize owners asking for 4 CB Golds to others dropping their 2G in the AP. Same for 2G Prize owners, from the ones asking for 1 or 2 Golds to the ones dropping the offspring in the AP. Frankly, I do not care: their eggs, their choice. If I have available what they ask for, I offer. If not, I don't give that a second thought and go my merry way.

As Olympe pointed out, there's something a bit freakish on the need to keep control of every offspring produced. That's not necessarily a characteristic of the majority of the Prize owners. But again, if someone feels the need to control the destiny (assuming is possible, I doubt) of every digital pixel they "produced", who am I to care?

What I pointed to is that multi-clutching would affect the trading market. Maybe as Jazeki suggested, only one Prize would be produced in a multi-clutch. Maybe more in the same clutch but zero on the next one, the ratios are fun like that. But, I'm guessing that valuable eggs would end unintentionally (as non intended by the breeder) in the AP if multi-clutching is introduced, be those Prizes, low-gen metals, Alts etc.

If multi-clutching is introduced, maybe some (I doubt many) people would just stop breeding but that happens already for Holidays, even with the assumed giving spirit.

 

[AnanoKimi]

Yeah see the fact that some owners of some breeds rare or not feel the need to control every single offspring is odd. I will admit, I feel a need to control mainly the offspring for my prize but not because I don't want anyone to enjoy them but because I know there are fast AP hunters that already gorge on some prize babies. I would much rather personally see that the baby I breed goes to someone who hasn't had the opportunity to trade for one and wants one. Those with very little to none to ensure the wealth is actually spread evenly instead of always to just the highest bidder or the biggest collector.

 

Thats my reason. Regardless, whether the reason is something we agree on or not, it is not fair to bring back a feature just to force those people to "share". Anyone with kids should know there is no such thin as "sharing". There is "you can have this when and if I decide to be done with it" but there is no "You can have this because I am forced to give in to your whims because you want it despite my not wanting to give it up". A similar principle applies here. Just because some of us are fed up with how some users decide to breed and use their dragons is no reason to force them to do something we want because we want it. Unless it is being used to ultimate harm someone or a group of people emotionally, mentally, or physically (self induced harm through stress of personal perceived value is different) then we should allow people to do with what they have as they please.

 

Everyone knows the rule of "once its off your scroll its no longer yours to decide on what happens to it or with it." Same applies to this notion, "If its not on your scroll it is not yours to decide on how it breeds and who should get the offspring."

Edited August 17, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[NotBambi]

I've no idea what you mean with "fast AP hunters that already gorge on some prize babies" but I think I'm fast and I've a few low-gen Prizes that I found in the AP. Did I "gorge"? I influenced them when they were not too low and kept them in my scroll? Is that "gorging"? Mah.

There's an easy solution for people that do not want to share, if multi-clutching is implemented: a BSA, call it "Mine is Mine, leave it alone", that would avoid multi-clutching. Why a BSA for that, instead of the other way around? Because, in my experience, the majority of people DOES WANT to share, the other way around would be inconvenient for that majority and generosity should not be discouraged.

 

[AnanoKimi]

Not you, but there are some. Just because you or I do or don't do something doesn't mean others do or don't do that. Even if they don't gorge, I'd rather personally see to it that the eggs I breed go to people of that specific group than tossing it blindly and hoping someone less fortunate manages to get it. You get me? and I know its the same for others. Whether it be for personal breeding or group lineage projects, the ability to ensure certain people get what you have made to ensure even distribution or proper continuation is key. Imposing on that isnt fair just because again we want to "share".

 

I agree that either having a BSA to avoid or induce multiclutching would be fine, so long as multiclutching is introduced in a fashion that it can be made optional to those involved. That's it.

Edited August 17, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[CNR4806]

I see multiclutching as a way of introducing lineage variety to the AP and helping the ratios balance itself. I don't give a to rares being actually multiclutched into the AP because let's face it, it would be a rare occurrence given the ratios.

 

I also find it a bit amusing and very frustrating that this is quickly being derailed into a prize multiclutching thread after the slightest mention of such. Seriously, calm down. There's a whole DC out there beside those damnable things.

 

It's this "Oh noez, someone random could get a 2nd egg and actually enjoy it without my express permission!" attitude that really grates on me. And I don't care whether this 'express permission" is bought with a gazillion CB rares, a raffle or due to being friends with someone, it's still the same control-freakish attitude, and I don't like it.

Agreed.

Edited August 17, 2015 by CNR4806