Otherkin

[Obscure_Trash]

My only "issue" is the whole pronoun thing, only because I cannot, and will not, treat nouns as pronouns. If an otherkin has a list of acceptable pronouns, I will always go with the actual pronoun option (she, he, they, xe/ze) than "catself, plantself, bunself" etc., only because it makes no grammatical sense.

You put issue in quotation marks but I think it belongs without. Respecting someone means respecting their name and pronouns.

 

People use the same "grammar" argument against using they/them as well. Funny thing about language is that it evolves with people and culture. ;3

[Gsea]

You put issue in quotation marks but I think it belongs without. Respecting someone means respecting their name and pronouns.

 

People use the same "grammar" argument against using they/them as well. Funny thing about language is that it evolves with people and culture. ;3

Agreed. But I still feel too out of my comfort zone saying a sentence along the lines of "Bob went to the store and bought catself a hat because cat thought it looked nice on cat."

 

It doesn't read well. It doesn't make sense.

 

I know it's not about me, an outsider, when it comes to the pronoun preferences of otherkin. That is why I always review their accepted/preferred pronouns and use one that they're okay with. So far I've never met anyone who didn't list an actual pronoun as an option. Therefore I always go with the actual pronoun.

 

If I encounter an otherkin who does not list any actual pronouns as "okay to use", and only lists neonoun options, idk what I'll do. Probably use whatever they want and feel weird while doing so. I'm not going to be rude and say "k, I'm flat out ignoring your pronoun preferences because they aren't really pronouns." It's not about me.

 

But if it's an option, "she/he/they/xe/ze" is what I'm going to use.

 

The grammar argument regarding "they" is one I'm familiar with. But Otherkin are currently too culturally obscure for me to do proper research on why "catself" could ever be considered grammatically okay.

[St. Jimmy]

So far I've never met anyone who didn't list an actual pronoun as an option. Therefore I always go with the actual pronoun.

I've only ever seen trolls use nounself pronouns tbh...

 

I'm sure there is someone out there who does use them. And if I were to meet them... well, I'd still respect their pronouns even if it is a bit strange to me. Ain't hurtig me one bit.

[TehUltimateMage]

Languages evolve, yes, but pronouns are a closed class. Unlike open classes like nouns, you can't add new ones willy-nilly. The transition of they from a plural to a non-binary singular pronoun is part of an evolution of language. That is more of a repurposing of what's already there. Trying to add whole new pronouns to the English language is a constant uphill battle, and while I trust that pronouns such as Xe are gaining traction, the otherkin community is not nearly influential enough to make their own pronouns mainstream.

 

I've only ever seen trolls use nounself pronouns tbh...

Poe's Law. It's gotten to the point that you can't tell trolls from people who are legit. And perhaps that trolls started the movement and sincere people latched on because they thought it was a good idea.

 

[Gsea]

For the record I do know of people who genuinely use nounself pronouns and are not trolling. As TehUltimateMage said, hey, maybe trolls started it. Maybe not. Regardless, otherkin do use neonouns. Fortunately most of them also accept real pronouns.

[Obscure_Trash]

Languages evolve, yes, but pronouns are a closed class. Unlike open classes like nouns, you can't add new ones willy-nilly. The transition of they from a plural to a non-binary singular pronoun is part of an evolution of language. That is more of a repurposing of what's already there. Trying to add whole new pronouns to the English language is a constant uphill battle, and while I trust that pronouns such as Xe are gaining traction, the otherkin community is not nearly influential enough to make their own pronouns mainstream.

 

 

Poe's Law. It's gotten to the point that you can't tell trolls from people who are legit. And perhaps that trolls started the movement and sincere people latched on because they thought it was a good idea.

Example of the creation of a pronoun: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xe#Etymology in 1943

 

From the article you listed:

 

The closed classes include pronouns (you, them), modal verbs (could, must), determiners (a, the), prepositions (of, in), and conjunctions (and, but). New members of these classes are not added to the language very often. Instead they tend to gradually evolve from lexical words in a process called grammaticalization.

 

Not very often =/= never

 

glamoursea2, if you started using them, they'd be clearer in a sentence. They're only confusing because we don't use them often. ;3

 

Besides, not many people actually use nounself pronouns (they are really only for trans/trans otherkin), and when they do it's usually because they need some cheering up and special nounself pronouns make them feel better. It's not something you're likely to be asked to use often, so why create such a big deal over it? ^^

[Gsea]

glamoursea2, if you started using them, they'd be clearer in a sentence. They're only confusing because we don't use them often. ;3

 

Besides, not many people actually use nounself pronouns (they are really only for trans/trans otherkin), and when they do it's usually because they need some cheering up and special nounself pronouns make them feel better. It's not something you're likely to be asked to use often, so why create such a big deal over it? ^^

Fair enough!

[PerkyHedgewitch]

I've been around in the Otherkin community for about 16 years now. I'm perfectly happy to answer questions and debunk a lot of rumors that have gotten started on Tumblr.

 

We don't think we're currently whatever type of Otherkin we identify as. No one thinks that in this lifetime, they are actually a Dragon. We all understand we are currently human and there's really nothing we can do about it.

 

"Nounself" pronouns were started by trolls. There was one in particular who claimed they were a toaster, and preferred toast/toastself pronouns, and then it kind of stuck. Sometimes someone who's young and new to the idea comes along and doesn't realize those people are trolling. They think if you're Otherkin, you have to have nounself pronouns so they go with it.

 

We are not mentally ill. In fact, I have discussed this at length with those in the psychology field and they have all agreed, we're okay. The general consensus was if we're not using it as escapism, then it's perfectly healthy. That's not to say I've never met someone who WAS using it that way, just that as a group "Otherkin" is not a mental illness. Some of us do deal with mental illness separately from our recollections of past lives, but it really is a separate thing.

 

Most of us think we come from someplace other than the Earth we know now. Whether that's another dimension, another plane, another planet, it really depends on the individual. We all have theories and ideas but until we develop the ability to explore those in a scientific way, we understand nothing can be proven.

 

To those who say "prove your soul isn't human", I ask them to prove they even have a soul. Prove you have a soul, prove there is an afterlife, prove that reincarnation exists. Then we'll talk about "proving" the specifics. As it stands right now these things can't be definitively proven. We can only really go with our gut.

[Lady_Lunevis]

mm this is just my two cents on the topic and i don't really want to offend anyone or anything, but regarding nounself pronouns . . .

personally, i've seen otherkin used more for comfort than as a past life, so i'm not too sure if i'm on the same page as everyone since most of the otherkin i've met have been from both the tumblr community and fictionkin.

with nounself pronouns, i do agree that it seems it started as a troll thing, as i've seen nounself pronouns on tumblr, but on an actual otherkin forum people were actually against the use of nounself pronouns.

however, even if it started as a troll kind of thing, people do actually use nounself pronouns. it's as sockpuppet said; most of them do use another pronoun, but in my experience using the nounself pronouns is more for when they're upset / need some comfort.

my view on otherkin and the discussion around it is that it really depends on a person; there's no way someone who was otherkin could ask someone who wasn't otherkin to experience the same things as them, so with that comes difficulties. i'm more spiritual than logical when it comes to otherkin so i'm not going to poke at the grammar, but i agree with perkyhedgewitch; there's no way to prove you have a soul, the same way there's no concrete way to prove otherkin is either not a thing or very much a thing.

while it might be so that tumblr has started a lot of things in the past, the people i've met who have been otherkin have been perfectly lovely. there's this idea that the entire otherkin community on tumblr is a raging mess of toaster/toasterself, but imo everyone is just a little sad and if being otherkin/using nounself pronouns would help take a little bit of that sad away, then i'm all for it.

i used to use a nounself pronoun once, but the only person who was ever distinctly okay with using it has left, and everyone else is just kinda. nope haha oh well

i really do have to agree with sockpuppet; it really does provide comfort. usually, someone wouldn't use a nounself pronoun every single sentence, but in the rare instances that it is needed it's kind of like ??? a lock closing, i guess? once again, imo it's p hard to fully understand something if you haven't gone through it, but it's very reassuring.

idk man this is just what i believe feel free to discuss w/ me just don't shout at me or i will probably fly away goodbye forever

[Infinis]

So how is there not a single shred of evidence of dragons or elves ever existing.

Clearly if there were intelligent/giant creatures we would've known by now.

I want to point out that not having evidence for something's existence does not mean it never existed or does not exist now.

 

Take the soul talk, for example. You're asking people to prove their soul is not human, but you have not presented any evidence that a soul even exists. If no one knows for sure if souls exist, how can we expect anyone to prove that they have a specific soul? You can't prove a soul is human until you prove the soul exists.

 

There are countless things in this world for which we cannot account - gaps in the fossil record, deities, cryptid sightings, to name a few - but just because we can't find solid proof (yet) doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means we haven't found it.

 

And no, we wouldn't necessarily know. If they existed in the past, it's worth noting that not everything fossilizes or becomes preserved, or they may have existed too recently to be preserved, or they could have been destroyed by any number of things. There are a lot of things that only exist as fragmentary remains about which we know little to nothing.

 

~~~

 

Anyway, when I first heard about otherkin I thought it was really weird. Over time I just became "whatever floats your boat". o3o;

 

From my understanding otherkin seems to hinge on faith/spirituality type things and it's not really my place to tell anyone that it's wrong because things like that are up to an individual. I don't know if I necessarily believe it but I'm content to let people be happy with their beliefs as long as they aren't hurting anyone with them.

[spatio]

I'm not quite sure what to think of the Otherkin community; I've never met anyone who was a part of it. And I'm not entirely sure I understand it, but that's of little consequence. I mean, my family is Native American, so I can't help but see it through that sort of lens?

 

When it comes to issues of the metaphysical, though, I'm of the opinion that whatever you feel is right is right for you. I mean, we can't prove anything one way or another, so the belief part is the only part that really matters. x3

 

Just don't expect me to use the right pronouns. I can't even do that right with my RL trans/genderfluid friends. I just see people as people, you know? So I guess gender/kintype(?)/appearance/etc is not even something I see as important, it's your personality I care about.

 

And I've had people jump all over me for using the wrong pronoun. And those are the people I no longer hang around.

 

---On the subject of gaps in the fossil record: according to a close friend of my family, who used to inspect rock quarries, workers were told to grind up any fossils/bones they found, or else the quarry might be temporarily shut down while paleontologists investigated. And that's bad for business. So who knows how many specimens (and possibly the only one of a species) we've lost? I think that's incredibly sad.

[Lurhstaap]

So how is there not a single shred of evidence of dragons or elves ever existing.

Clearly if there were intelligent/giant creatures we would've known by now.

If only the fossil/archeological record were as complete as you claim. I'm sure paleontologists and archeologists would love that. Alas, it is not. And someone as fond of paleontology as you are has to know that. Therefore I find your argument spurious.

 

Three hundred years ago there was not a single shred of evidence that dinosaurs ever existed. I suspect that what we know as theropods might appear as "dragons" to older eyes. Just one little example. And (as another example) say there were an intelligent race of dinosaurs. Suppose they made tools of wood and leather and bone, being wiped out or evolving away from sapience somehow before they developed higher technologies. It would be very easy for all traces of such a society to be wiped out, with no hint that it had ever existed. How would we ever know?

 

To be honest, this kind of argument relies far too much on the infallibility of humanity and the completeness of our access to information about the past for my comfort.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[Sinclair]

Just don't expect me to use the right pronouns.  I can't even do that right with my RL trans/genderfluid friends. I just see people as people, you know?  So I guess gender/kintype(?)/appearance/etc is not even something I see as important, it's your personality I care about. 

 

And I've had people jump all over me for using the wrong pronoun.  And those are the people I no longer hang around.

that is not at all funny, it is a horrifying (outside of it being dehumanizing it actually endangers the recipient in many situations) experience being trans and having the wrong pronoun used for you, and even worse when the person does it repeatedly, won't correct themselves or worst of all makes a big deal out of you correcting them

 

when you're not trans you don't see gender as an important thing so you can have that attitude but when you are trans it is a constant stem of dehumanization, illegitimization, intense fear just walking down the street, daily microaggressions, extremely common assault and violence - and that's outside of being kicked out of your home as a child, being denied the medical care you need to mentally survive in your own body, legally being able to be fired at any time for being trans, being a disgusting joke to most of the world, etc

 

btw trans =/////= otherkin, your gender is a day-to-day thing and for many trans people a world of pain and horror that we did not ask for, otherkin is spiritual from what i know and people aren't being murdered on the daily for being otherkin, they are not comparable

Edited August 1, 2015 by Sinclair

[Omega Entity]

I don't think dragonwinxzodiac was saying she makes the mistakes on purpose or maliciously, but that she unintentionally makes mistakes on a semi-regular basis. Thus why she used the word 'mistake', and didn't state that she outright refuses to use their chosen pronouns.

 

If her trans/genderfluid friends -didn't- understand that it's not malicious, and thought that she -doesn't- try, it would seem that they'd no longer be friends with her.

 

It's the automatic assumption that some seem to make when wrong pronouns are used (in that it's always intended to be malicious or hurtful), and the subsequent jumping down the throat of the one making the mistake that makes people not only want to stop trying, but also drives them away from wanting to better understand. Automatically assuming the worst of anyone who makes a mistake tends to do that, and drives away potential allies - who, like it or not, are necessary in gaining greater acceptance.

 

Who wants to defend a person who turns on them whenever they make a mistake, let alone be friends with them? I think that's the point dragonwin was making when she said that those who would verbally jump on her when she'd occasionally screw up are no longer her friends. If a friend automatically assumes the worst of you when you make a mistake, then they aren't a friend at all, nor should they be.

 

Intent really should be a large factor in determining if someone's a terrible person for using the wrong pronoun.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Omega Entity

[Lady_Lunevis]

Anyway, when I first heard about otherkin I thought it was really weird. Over time I just became "whatever floats your boat". o3o;

 

From my understanding otherkin seems to hinge on faith/spirituality type things and it's not really my place to tell anyone that it's wrong because things like that are up to an individual. I don't know if I necessarily believe it but I'm content to let people be happy with their beliefs as long as they aren't hurting anyone with them.

yes pls this is the attitude everyone should have a+++

i'm tired of people yelling that it's not mentally healthy to be otherkin like?? i'm already mentally unhealthy and das not bc of my identity trust me

 

on a more serious note, i know that not everyone's going to agree with otherkin and while that is also kind of sad, pls this is so important holds head in hands//// if someone is happy being otherkin and it helps them please leave them alone bc they are not harming you in any way we're just trying to survive and the world is a hard place sometimes u feel

 

~

 

uff i understand slipups from time to time bc i have a friend who i knew as she/her for five years and they've recently changed to they/them and i still slip up sometimes but p l e a s e try to use the correct pronoun for someone because that is so important and it makes them very happy

and as omega said please do not use the wrong pronoun ever on purpose because that can do so much damage

 

[Sinclair]

I don't think dragonwinxzodiac was saying she makes the mistakes on purpose or maliciously, but that she unintentionally makes mistakes on a semi-regular basis. Thus why she used the word 'mistake', and didn't state that she outright refuses to use their chosen pronouns.

 

If her trans/genderfluid friends -didn't- understand that it's not malicious, and thought that she -doesn't- try, it would seem that they'd no longer be friends with her.

 

It's the automatic assumption that some seem to make when wrong pronouns are used (in that it's always intended to be malicious or hurtful), and the subsequent jumping down the throat of the one making the mistake that makes people not only want to stop trying, but also drives them away from wanting to better understand. Automatically assuming the worst of anyone who makes a mistake tends to do that, and drives away potential allies - who, like it or not, are necessary in gaining greater acceptance.

 

Who wants to defend a person who turns on them whenever they make a mistake, let alone be friends with them? I think that's the point dragonwin was making when she said that those who would verbally jump on her when she'd occasionally screw up are no longer her friends. If a friend automatically assumes the worst of you when you make a mistake, then they aren't a friend at all, nor should they be.

 

Intent really should be a large factor in determining if someone's a terrible person for using the wrong pronoun.

i figured as much - with (most) friends of course they're never PURPOSELY doing something bad or doing anything maliciously

 

obviously you wouldn't by choice hang out with someone who you know to be doing something malicious against you especially on this major a level

 

the problem is that people, while of course not making an unintentional malicious effort, don't make enough of a conscious effort to use the right terminology - and this puts people in dangerous situations

 

i never said i thought she was doing it intentionally or that i think she's a bad person in any way

 

the only thing that actually seriously pulled at me was that she somehow thinks this is amusing and not a gravely serious matter, as if people are overreacting

 

i've never once seen a trans person who actually "jumped down someone's throat" or anything of that nature when misgendered - it is almost always a perfectly reasonably toned request, if not a very fearful one, and very understandably, with time, it gets more and more tiring if it keeps happening, every time it happens in any context from anyone it is extremely distressing on all levels, and like i said, *dangerous situations* - when your "cover is blown" that does nothing but spread and spread and spread until (if not at that very moment) you find yourself constantly being asked nasty questions, made fun of and harassed, fired, kicked out of somewhere, stalked, verbally assaulted, physically assaulted - and even if you're the luckiest person ever surrounded by saints you still have been "revealed" and it's horrible, just the worst feeling in the world, even if everybody is supportive

 

or, rather than "revealed" there is a term for that - forcibly being outed - it has the same impact whether or not it was on purpose - and beside all the incredible danger it puts a person in it's also just intensely shaking on a personal level, some trans people are different and that's fine but many i know simply do not want anybody to know that about them no matter how supportive they'd be, they didn't choose to be trans and don't want it as a part of their life, or simply don't want it involved in particular environments and relationships

 

a trans person has every right to get upset when this happens but like i said i have never seen a trans person "jumping down someone's throat" for it - we are usually terrified on some level at all times and what you do when misgendering happens in public is keep your head far down and as quietly as possible correct the person IF it is safe to correct them when often it's not

 

the biggest issue i see is not that it's done on purpose of course but that the person responsible reacts badly. if you misgender somebody you need to *immediately* correct yourself not just for emotions' sake but for safety's sake, act like it was a simple slip of the tongue as would be with referring to somebody who isn't trans, and apologize, it's that simple, doesn't matter if you meant to or not, it's still your fault and it still has a damaging impact

 

what's important to understand here is that misgendering isn't just like any other mistake you could make in a friendship, it is on a much different level than that in terms of impact and should actively be treated as such and all of this^^^^^^is at stake for the trans person

 

so it's never that a trans person thinks you're misgendering them on purpose (unless it actually looks like you are and possible evidence of that would be you reacting badly lol) it's that it has a HUGE impact and needs to be corrected immediately and properly which it almost never is and that much of the time a more active effort needs to be made

 

also

 

"It's the automatic assumption that some seem to make when wrong pronouns are used (in that it's always intended to be malicious or hurtful), and the subsequent jumping down the throat of the one making the mistake that makes people not only want to stop trying, but also drives them away from wanting to better understand. Automatically assuming the worst of anyone who makes a mistake tends to do that, and drives away potential allies - who, like it or not, are necessary in gaining greater acceptance."

 

like i said up there that is most often not the assumption made when it's a friend it's those other factors

 

and the rest of that paragraph is what's called, or would be called if i played into it, "respectability politics", a particular vein called "pandering to the emotions of the majority [majority as in member of majority group, the one in power]"

 

what that translates into is basically, on the majority groups' side, "i was GOING to acknowledge the very basic humanity of an extremely marginalized group you belong to but then you had to go and be slightly rude to me!" in this case the basic humanity factor being respect for, or rather just acknowledgement of, a groundwork trait that would not need a split second of mind for somebody who wasn't trans - that being gender

 

seriously, anybody who stops Accepting or Trying To Accept an entire group of millions (who for reference are fighting for our rights because we are being murdered on the street every day and are denied basic services we need immediately to survive) because a trans person didn't baby them is just? they're not worth anybody's time, that's for sure

 

it is up to the majority group, the oppressing group to do their own research, nobody is obligated to educate you, come to you with a kind powerpoint, it is your responsibility and your duty as somebody in a position of power relative to trans people/etc

 

"Automatically assuming the worst of anyone who makes a mistake tends to do that, and drives away potential allies - who, like it or not, are necessary in gaining greater acceptance."

 

you know that necessary allies part actually isn't true and i can't even count the number of times i've seen that used? there's a great piece on this defense out there (it's about when it's used as a defense by white people when they feel poc aren't being gentle enough with them but the mechanics apply here too) i'll have to find it and edit this when i do

 

in the world of institutionalized violent oppression making an overly kind effort towards the majority will actually get you nowhere, it's the cutthroat work of the marginalilzed among themselves that have ever gotten any marginalized groups anywhere, and the hurt feelings of a cis (literally just means "not transgender") person don't mean squat relative to the actual survival of a trans person

[St. Jimmy]

btw trans =/////= otherkin, your gender is a day-to-day thing and for many trans people a world of pain and horror that we did not ask for, otherkin is spiritual from what i know and people aren't being murdered on the daily for being otherkin, they are not comparable

This is something I wish otherkin skeptics would understand. I'm sure some trans people relate the two experiences, but for me, it feels nothing the same. Being trans makes me often feel disgusted towards my body. I do all I can to change it to be perceived as masculine. Whereas I don't feel any dysphoria from being otherkin, and I don't have any desire to make myself look Na'vi. Past life =/= this life.

 

And you're right, Sinclair, that otherkin aren't marginalized in society like trans people are. Bullied yes, but that's not comparable to literally risking our lives every time we leave the house. Or even in the house if said place isn't trans-friendly.

 

Now, I don't mean to minimod here, but wouldn't the pronoun discussion fit better in the gender identity thread?

[spatio]

yes pls this is the attitude everyone should have a+++

i'm tired of people yelling that it's not mentally healthy to be otherkin

 

uff i understand slipups from time to time bc i have a friend who i knew as she/her for five years and they've recently changed to they/them and i still slip up sometimes but p l e a s e try to use the correct pronoun for someone because that is so important and it makes them very happy

and as omega said please do not use the wrong pronoun ever on purpose because that can do so much damage

Exactly, it's not right to say someone is "mentally ill" or whatever because of their beliefs and what they feel is right. My psychology professor says, basically, mental illness makes it so you cannot function/impedes your ability to have a life. Feeling that, on a spiritual level, you are not something other people might see as 'normal' just means those other people need to stop being so judgy.

 

And yes, that's what I meant by saying that I use the wrong pronouns occasionally. I in no way mean any harm, and my friends know that I'm just a big dumb-dumb. My friend of 8+ years changed from using "she" to "he" just this past year, so yeah, when I'm babbling excitedly I occasionally misspeak. Sorry if that's off topic, but I wanted to clarify that I did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

[Gsea]

Yeah I would never ever purposely misgender someone omg but I've been prone to slip-ups and felt awful about it and apologized and people have always been so nice about it. I once used "she" in reference to a transguy and said I was sorry immediately and corrected myself and he was like "It's ok sweetie!!" So I just think the first reaction shouldn't be negative if someone misgenders someone. Any negative response to a slip-up can be interpreted as "jumping down one's throat" and can make the person responsible for the slip-up feel defensive rather than apologetic.

 

Aaanyway I came here to kinda apologize for what I said about refusing to use nounself pronouns because I didn't take into account that they're a comforting/mood-boosting thing :/ I'm a logical, rational thinker, a scientist and a skeptic at heart, so the whole soul/spiritual discussion is beyond my realm of understanding, so as interested as I am in the otherkin discusion, I have to be careful not to put my foot in my mouth and sometimes I do just that. And I'm not the most emotional person so I didn't really take feelings into account when I said that nounself pronouns are grammatically nonsensical and hard to take seriously. Sorry if I offended and I love you all~

[TehUltimateMage]

I recently dyed my black hair red, and I've only noticed/thought of today that my white astral ears have turned kind of a dark peachy pink, but my tail is still (still feels?) white. Kind of funny to imagine how this would look on an actual dog. Like those dog-dyeing contests?

 

I don't use my tumblr much anymore, so I felt like sharing this little tidbit here. :c

Edited August 1, 2015 by TehUltimateMage

[elynne]

for whatever it's worth, I know (personally by name as friends, not "have heard of on the Internet somewhere") many (a dozen I can think of offhand, probably at least a score more if I try) people who identify as transgender and otherkin. cause and effect are difficult to determine, but I suspect that the feeling of "not fitting in" can find a variety of outlets.

[Kazeko]

for whatever it's worth, I know (personally by name as friends, not "have heard of on the Internet somewhere") many (a dozen I can think of offhand, probably at least a score more if I try) people who identify as transgender and otherkin. cause and effect are difficult to determine, but I suspect that the feeling of "not fitting in" can find a variety of outlets.

I know that I (nb trans bird) went looking for other frameworks to identify with, because I knew that gender standards didn't fit me even before I knew that nonbinary people are a thing, and what I found was the natural world, and birds especially.

 

I think something along that story is pretty common. For certain all of my friends who are 'kin are also trans (& mostly nonbinary).

[Indigo_Dragon]

I've met a wormkin once there Kitsune93. If that stands for anything?

 

On another notice, I really like what S0ren said about the generalities offered because of the limiting human mind experience. In everything we say and do, we translate and filter it through a human body, and a human mind, and even human understanding of emotions too. So that can be some serious limitations to truly experiencing some non-human things too - as well as the sheer limitations of the human language [no matter if its English, Chinese, Spanish, French, etc. it has limitations].

 

I use the neutral "they" pronouns for people if I don't know their pronouns. Admittedly though I've known of otherkin and done some reading about it over the years, I've NEVER come across the nounself pronouns until now. O.e~ Thank you by the way for introducing me to that. I'll move on now since from all the stuff I've read these past few pages, it's a seriously fraught topic and I don't want to hurt anyone by doing more than just bringing it up very briefly.

 

I do thoroughly agree with Lurhstaap about the evolution difficulties and how frail the fossil record actually is. It has SO MANY HOLES and we're learning so much all the time. Seriously. The conditions to make new fossils have to be PERFECTLY precise or else the bones disappear. We have like less than 1% of the actual fossil record because of all the climates that are just not conductive toward preserving such records. (Then again that percentage is just guesswork based on the sheer diversity of life we have today, and of all the billions of years that live has evolved on Earth. Yeah we're missing some MAJOR holes.)

 

I do agree with Sinclair about his post with the concerns over making mistakes with a trans person's pronouns. Also remember if someone gets sharp with you, that while maybe it was the first time with YOU... it certainly was NOT the first time they've gotten that prick on the open wound in all of their life. All the countless strangers, bosses, coworkers, family, friends, parents (yes they're family but separated them because gaddamn don't underestimate all the stuff you get hit by in childhood by even well-meaning parents that are doing the best they can), potential lovers, society, media, books, the news, etc. It may be the first time for you, it certainly is NOT the first time for them. Fuses may be short because of that - but as long as you apologize and correct the slip as soon as possible, make the effort to change the pronouns (I know they take time, so take that time but still make the effort ), and they apologize for the moment of anger, and then we all can keep on going happily. At least that's just imo. ;;

 

I might go into my own experiences of my otherkin-ism in a later post because this one is long sorry. I don't want to make it any longer. ;;

 

And just for reference, I'm trans and otherkin too, but I know some trans people who aren't otherkin, some otherkin who aren't trans, and another trans person who is also otherkin. So that's nice the diversity!

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sapphira_Majoram

[Umbee]

I've met a wormkin once. If that stands for anything?

I'm friends with a hydrangeakin!

 

I'm not otherkin myself... pretty sure I'm not anyway. I do consider myself fictionkin, but for me it's not a spiritual thing, more of a coping mechanism for my mental illnesses, and I personally see it as a separate deal from otherkin.

[Indigo_Dragon]

I know I'm otherkin but the kin type itself seems to be varied. I just know what I feel and have experienced and it seems to match up with different kintypes so far.

 

When I was young - a child - I was disconcerted by my smooth back and wondering why there weren't wings. I felt an odd sense of loss and deep longing for wings that I couldn't quite explain back then. Just having the presence, weight, and feel of them would've been very soothing for me and helped with some of the dysphoria.

 

I had a lot of other odd behaviors (make of it what you will) with many persisting from childhood into adulthood, despite my parents' attempts to make me "behave normally." I can behave like "normally" very well nowadays and rarely let any of the behaviors out, except in the comfort and protection of my home or in front of some very close friends.

 

These are some of the ones I remember from my childhood: (There were many more, but I chose these for simplicity's sake.)

 

-Walking on my toes. I stubbornly kept walking on my toes whenever I could even past the age of 10. I vividly remember my mom trying to correct me on the "proper" walking quite a bit. I indulge in that now and then and it still feels very natural to me instead of the heel-first slapping of the whole foot.

 

-Guarding and "nesting" eggs. I remember taking a chicken egg we got from a farm and building a nest and carefully balancing myself as I sat on it to not break the egg. I did it sometimes with the eggs from the carton. I have some stone eggs that I was very fond of doting over and crouching upon. It felt intensely soothing and warm and natural, very parental and nurturing whenever I did this. However I got so embarrassed of what other people would think of me that I've stopped since the age of 10 years old. (I still have a nest set up on the top of my bookshelf with those eggs in place.)

 

-Guarding a "home" or "den." I am still possessive over my bedroom, and of my bed in particular. I am very good at building nests and making a small space incredibly cozy (So much so my best friend kept trying to make me switch places with her when we "made-believe" we were animals with nests all during Middle school years. Unfortunately for her it wasn't the "prime location" or even the materials used that made it so great. It was just my skill. ) Also in soccer (football to the rest of the world outside USA), whenever I was the goalie I enjoyed it a lot. I would fiercely protect my goal net as if it was my den and get very aggressive if anyone tried to approach. The strong intense "MUST PROTECT AT ALL COSTS" emotions and sensations that overwhelmed me at such periods baffled my human mind. Especially when no other kid around me seemed to behave or feel that way.

 

-Hissing and snapping behaviors. I would try to bite people at times but not directly, more in their general direction (sometimes close but never aiming at their skin) as a warning of anger or irritation. Hissing and growling were also similar warnings and I am still quite fond of baring my teeth in a snarl. I've had some very strong urges to actually bite someone on the neck to the point that I could just feel the soft skin giving way underneath my canines, but I would always resist that. I knew that it was wrong.

 

-Clawing and scratching behaviors. I would likewise try to slash at people to get them to stop saying whatever was hurting me, or to go away, or just stop teasing me. I've had to learn to resist those urges when I grew up through Middle school because it hurt my friends and ultimately I do not want that at all. No matter how the brief anger may feel at the moment.

 

-Fantasies of animal behavior. I've done my fair share, from mimicking a velociraptor when very young with my walk and curled fingers (making three or two useable with the others curled tight towards my palm), to racing around on all fours even up to 15 years old, and crouching to eat food from the plate on the ground. I remember being so proud of trotting up and down the stairs on either all fours [hands and feet] or on toe-tips, and not breaking a stride. Even tried to scratch behind my own ear with my foot (and gave it up as impossible with this human body.)

 

-Intense Flight Obsession. I've ALWAYS longed to fly. Curiously I have a fear of falling from a great height with nothing to catch me and break my fall. I know now that it was from falling off wet playground equipment at the age of 5 yrs and breaking my arm in two places and getting a concussion. You don't need to tell me falling is dangerous, I already know it! Yet I've worked on my fear of heights increasingly until I felt bold enough to make my first steps towards skydiving.

 

Skydive Experience: (Caution very long!)

 

I started with the vertical wind tunnel (SO. DAMN. FUN. Also easy to get the actual Free Fall sensation without the risk of the actual skydiving. Expert jumpers will use this to practice and rehearse their moves before a jump.) The first time I went out there and was cushioned by air I was in a state of euphoria, JOY, and utter out-of-my-mind-with-GLEE. I also felt intense awe and amazement at how familiar it felt. Not the harsh gusts of the wind in my face no, but the sensation of being supported by air all around me, and of "floating" in a way with the air having a real presence on my body. But that was not anything compared to an actual skydive.

 

For those of you who've done it, you know you have only 60 seconds of actual free fall, and the rest you glide down with the parachute to the ground. I've not yet jumped on my own but I've had three tandem jumps so far and I'd rather trust my life to someone who knows what they're doing tyvm. At least right now. Also there's the plane flight up to 14,000 ft in a twin otter plane that has a glass sliding door in the side. Halfway up to the intended jump altitude, they open the door and let the experienced solo jumpers out first. So the door is open from 8,000 ft onwards.

 

I still vividly remember my first skydive. I was wracked with nerves and my fear of heights was setting in on the plane flight up, with a "OH WHAT AM I DOING?!" moment or two. But when they opened up that door as the plane was still climbing all that blew out of my mind. It was the first time in my [human] life I have EVER smelled the sky. You read that right. Smelled. Before then I never knew that the sky HAD a smell. I, like all other earthbound folks, assumed that because its above the ground, it is "empty air" and thus "doesn't have smells" and "smells clean and fresh" and that's it. Ohohohohoh. NO. How very wrong I was.

 

The Smell:

 

I was struck by the intense moisture of the air-smell, the mist-like feel of its presence as we traversed through the cloud layer. The intense cold came in and sunk into my bones as I felt wildly and vividly ALIVE. I could smell the warm dusty breezes from the ground that slipped in, on the trail of the colder frigid ozone blasts from higher up. I could tell that one set of breezes had odd sparky-like scent (forgive me for this description because there is a lack of suitable smell-related words in English darnit) and oddly enough I immediately matched it up with a wind blowing along the underside of a cloud. There was something vaguely like spice which I read as a sideways running wind that ran crosswise with the other breezes. Something smooth and cool that was right in the middle of the warmer ground thermal (because it was a HOT summer day) and the frigid ozone air, met my nose. There were many more scents and tastes I could identify but had no words for (still don't and I'm seriously struggling still <.< darn you language limitations! Why don't these words exist?!) All of that filled my every breath and shot sparks of identification in my brain, like I could - just from the smell alone - identify each pathway and origin and direction of the individual breezes.

 

I wanted to cry when I was hit by that, because I've NEVER [as far as my human memory goes] EVER smelled that before. Yet it had the deepest sense of utter belonging that thrummed in my very core and bones. My previous fear slipped away more and more, as an intense urge to the point of PAIN shot up in me - the need to just fling myself out of that damn plane and join the Sky World. Right. Now. Thanks to the plane going fast enough for the fumes to be dispersed by the wind away from the opening, and to me being one of the first in the line so I didn't get the thick horrid musk of human smells (really we were sweating, it was obvious to me. Then again I have the super-nose so I can't talk), and the pure, cold, clear, rich, vivid, and thick Sky World smell was free to overwhelm me.

 

I felt so damn happy that I was finally free of the overpowering, confusing pandemonium of the earth smells (soggy soil, sharp green plants, unbearable animal and human musks, jagged mineral scents, etc.) was gone. In its place was the moisture- and air-based clarity of the sky, where my super-strong nose could be finally put to good use in picking out each breeze and tangle and swirl of the wind currents. I had never until that moment even CONSIDERED that the birds could smell the sky around them, and even use that to guide their flight. Seriously. If you told me that before I had my first skydiving I would've either laughed myself sick or looked intrigued but asked for more evidence and wondered what the heck would it even smell like? Now I knew. Oh how I knew.

 

The Feel:

 

When I was finally able to get out and jump... my fear was not there. It never came back. I felt NO fear, other than a deep joy, sense of true belonging, euphoria, even rapture to my very core at the feel of the wind not just buffeting my body and parting around me, but cradling and supporting all of me on a welcoming cushion of air. It filled all my senses with its smell, presence, and curled around each part of my body until there seemed like nothing between me and the Sky around me. Ever swam in the path of the ocean waves and felt them crash around you as you slipped through and you felt the roar, deep thrum, echoing booms, and pulsing vibration of the ocean around you? As if it was a real and living powerful living thing or force that was undeniable? I felt that then with the sky. The sky ain't empty! Oh hell naw! It's a powerful, dynamic, thriving and pulsing thing that embraced me as I embraced it through that flight. Unlike the ocean where I always had the edge of fear and worry out of respect of its ability to pummel me into dust against the rocky shore if it so inclined, I felt none of that with the sky. I felt the deepest warmth of homecoming and joy of reunion that went beyond any dream could ever have been. How could you be afraid of something that is so a part of you, that in that moment you breathe with it and it breathes with you?

 

The Sight:

 

My fear never came back even during the parachute gliding part. Even on my third jump when I can judge distances accurately I ... never felt I was ever falling. That I was ever in danger. That I would ever come to hurt or pain. I felt truly like this was where I belonged, with the expanding vistas of the gently rolling green hills and low undulations of the occasional mountains of the Maine countryside. The curve and flow of the clouds above me, the sheer dizzying sense of space and scale of the sky around me, and the increasingly warm breezes that rush upwards to curl around me. The smell of the sky so intense in my nose and mouth, it seemed to overwhelm any thoughts in my mind. The joy of power and control over the parachute [with my instructor's help] as my own actions turned me around or spun me into a gleeful spiral. The gentle getting bigger of all the trees and buildings below me, and the increasing heat of the air from the hot ground pushing against me.

 

Even with the landing it was smooth and gentle sliding on our butts along the grass until we came to a stop. I felt NO fear. None at all. I was so drunk on sheer joy and euphoria and bliss like nothing else, that I didn't want to talk for a long while there. It felt intensely personal and private and I didn't know how to put it to words to describe it. My attempts to talk to my friends about it [they did tandem jumps with me too] was met with little understanding since they only got at most an adrenaline rush from the fall and all. I got a whole spiritual euphoric experience beyond my wildest dream of just pure bliss and joy that I could never have comprehended. I felt curiously full and perfectly satiated from that experience, and did not eat anything for over 24 hours later because I felt no hunger nor need for actual food to fill me. I was already full from the sky world somehow?

 

The Pain:

 

I remember how I felt when we piled into the car for the long drive home. It sank into my mind, past the bliss-filled daze, that I was now leaving the one sole place that connected me to the sky world. That I was chosing to leave that place, my only entrance point, to a world that felt like my truest home, and departing into the thick, suffocating, tangled mess of the earth smells and enforced grounding of my human body. I was hit by a deep, agonizing grief that clenched around my chest and throat and stabbed into my core, and radiated anguish and pain out through my body and mind. I had to bite my lip, don my sunglasses, look out my window, and silence the sobs that came up. I hid my turmoil from sight and awareness of my mother and friends, who would not understand.

 

I was baffled at the same time by the sheer intensity of the grief and longing to go BACK to the field and never leave my sole connection to the sky world again. It just didn't make any logical sense! At least not if you looked at it from the perspective of "we only have the experiences we do in this one lifetime, that is IT." None of the reactions to the jump made sense in that framework. So when I looked at it a different way, that I HAD been a flyer in an existence before this human lifetime, with my current human body, mind, and limitations. That I was taking from that past life a deep unconscious experience that I had not truly known about until now, because I did not have the framework for my human mind to understand it before that point. Then it all made sense. Of course I didn't want to leave it, not again. Not when I finally found my link to my Sky World again after all those years of being in a human body and restricted to the ground.

 

Ending Comments:

 

But then again this is how I've interpreted it so. And this is just my deep, very personal experience that I am sharing with you on here, in hopes that it might interest some of you to know what someone else might've gone through. Even if its very different than anything you've gone through. And that's okay.

 

Note: I never mentioned hearing because I am hard of hearing with my cochlear implants and completely deaf without them. For safety purposes [and for sheer wanting to not have to shell out the mega bucks to replace them] I had my cochlear implants off for the duration of the whole flight up and the jump/glide down. Also, all my other plane flights were in a pressurized and confined enclosure with no hint of the outside air allowed in. So this was truly my first experience being up that high away from the ground. (Yes mountains can get close to that high but they still carry ground smell with them, so this was pure sky.)

 

Another thing, sorry for the longness of this. I just wanted to try to explain and SHOW you as much as I could with my words, what it was like for me. Sorry for the mega post! ;;;

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sapphira_Majoram