ANSWERED:Lift CB Valentine / Christmas Limit?

[Vhale]

Actually it brings up a point about limits. If everyone is at the limit, the biome's can't move. Which I think is why limits were removed in the first place. I recall the AP sitting idle because no one could pick up the eggs. Which can happen if you have a lot of code hunters using those 3 days are Christmas to cycle new eggs into the AP.

 

Eggs are hard to catch at release. Everyone wants them then because it gives you time to catch an extra breeding if you have enough incubates. 3 rounds vrs 2.

[RainDear]

3 hours ago, VixenDra said:

 

BECAUSE of the low limits people would averagely ONLY TRADE and never gift. For instance, I had to pay double for Val. x Val. and Chis. x Chris pairings (from various peope) BECAUSE of the limits and people having so few to breed. While, for comparison, most of Halloweens were bred on request (for free). (I'm speaking about me getting 2gens).

Also the game itself doesnt' support interuser interaction... all trades must be done offsite...

 

Also, I've seen this Halloween. After the hype of the 1st 2 days the Holiday biome was moving slowly. And I'm speaking of CB Pumpkins sitting there..

Also I had no big issues catching the new Halloween - despite my  Internet got off transfer limits and was very slow on Halloween, speed in KBs... also seen my cousins do the catching later that day on my very PC and they had their fills in max 2 xx:x5 drops.

 

 

Also no need for limiting new ones - if on Halloween later on the ONLY day they were easy to catch on slow connection, then the other two will be just a pleasure to catch with their THREE days drop... With limits the biomes nearly stop moving later in the FIRST day. The limit is just not needed... they will be still sitting on 2nd day...

I give bred holidays free by request. I have had it in my sig for years. And, yes, I will happily breed holiday x holiday for you if the requests prior to yours don't preclude the possibility. I'm not the only one out there who happily breeds for free. My dragons almost exclusively breed on request, so I expect they are thrilled to  comply when the chance arises. You don't have to pay, much less pay double if you ask the right people. Some of us love to gift our offspring, limits notwithstanding. In my experience, limits never stopped or limited gifting by generous members of the community. Some of the nicest things I have were the results of gifting and requests, no charge.

[cyradis4]

4 minutes ago, raindear said:

I give bred holidays free by request. I have had it in my sig for years. And, yes, I will happily breed holiday x holiday for you if the requests prior to yours don't preclude the possibility. I'm not the only one out there who happily breeds for free. My dragons almost exclusively breed on request, so I expect they are thrilled to  comply when the chance arises. You don't have to pay, much less pay double if you ask the right people. Some of us love to gift our offspring, limits notwithstanding. In my experience, limits never stopped or limited gifting by generous members of the community. Some of the nicest things I have were the results of gifting and requests, no charge.

 

You have totally missed the point. 

 

Over the entire userbase, on average, the userbase is far and away more generous on Halloween than it is on Christmas and Valentines. Yes, there are *some* individuals that don't follow that model. But for the most part, it stands. You can always find exceptions to every rule. That doesn't mean that that rule is invalid, only that humans are individuals. 

 

So since the only two groups posting are those who are equally generous on Halloween and Christmas, and those who are *less* generous on Christmas and Valentines (and this is a huge group comprising seemingly most of the posters).... I'd say that its safe to say that Halloween is a far more generous Holiday than Christmas and Valentines. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

[Dragon_Arbock]

3 hours ago, Vhale said:

Actually it brings up a point about limits. If everyone is at the limit, the biome's can't move. Which I think is why limits were removed in the first place. I recall the AP sitting idle because no one could pick up the eggs. Which can happen if you have a lot of code hunters using those 3 days are Christmas to cycle new eggs into the AP.

This is basically what I expect to happen. Most of us can't grab Aegis, Mistletoe, Snow, Solstice, Wrapperwing.. More than a few might be able to grab Ribbon Dancers and Winter Magis, but still, a number of active players won't be able to grab most of the breeds.

When there are no limits, even if people don't want the more common breeds, they'll take them and throw them to AP to keep things moving.

[RainDear]

5 minutes ago, cyradis4 said:

 

You have totally missed the point. 

 

Over the entire userbase, on average, the userbase is far and away more generous on Halloween than it is on Christmas and Valentines. Yes, there are *some* individuals that don't follow that model. But for the most part, it stands. You can always find exceptions to every rule. That doesn't mean that that rule is invalid, only that humans are individuals. 

 

So since the only two groups posting are those who are equally generous on Halloween and Christmas, and those who are *less* generous on Christmas and Valentines (and this is a huge group comprising seemingly most of the posters).... I'd say that its safe to say that Halloween is a far more generous Holiday than Christmas and Valentines. 

 

Cheers!
C4. 

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

No, I do not believe I miss the point at all. I said, "In my experience" I find many members of the community to be very generous, limits notwithstanding. I have gotten several nice things without having to pay for them and given things to anyone who asks. I don't think I am an exception to some "rule" you established. I am willing to admit that "my experience" is different from yours, but I believe there are more generous people here than you have found. I am not discounting your experience or opinion, just expressing my own.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I feel like there were generous people, but I've seen that less and less. I only have one Aransi cause I did end up forgetting about them and someone gave me one of theirs. In contrast though, last year I ended up busy and my Snows died, but nobody replaced those for me. It's my fault, of course, but it's just something I noticed.

 

I am not the biggest hoarder. I only want two CB Hollies for the sake of completion. I don't like their sprite that much, yes that is part of desirability for me. Solstices would probably be the thing I want the most of if limits are removed.

[LibbyLishly]

10 minutes ago, raindear said:

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

No, I do not believe I miss the point at all. I said, "In my experience" I find many members of the community to be very generous, limits notwithstanding. I have gotten several nice things without having to pay for them and given things to anyone who asks. I don't think I am an exception to some "rule" you established. I am willing to admit that "my experience" is different from yours, but I believe there are more generous people here than you have found. I am not discounting your experience or opinion, just expressing my own.

I have found a very similar experience. Most of the forum members I have encountered have been extremely generous, regardless of time of year or limits.

 

And that's why I strongly support completely removing limits for rereleases (not for new releases, because I do like retaining that unique aspect of new Christmas/Valentine's dragons). Let people who are generous have the opportunity to be even more generous with their bounty instead of limiting what they can have and, therefore, what they can give. It seems the only reason to keep limits in place is a fear of greed, or at least of people who just don't care - and that by default penalizes the more generous players, as well as the less lucky players who would receive gifts from them. You don't create wealth by limiting what people at the top can have, but by creating more and more opportunities for everyone across the board. 

 

Tl;dr I support removing limits on rereleases because I believe more players are generous than are greedy.

 

@Dragon_Arbock Solstices would be my preferred "hoard" dragon, too, haha, and I also missed last year's release.

Edited November 2, 2017 by LibbyLishly

[The Dragoness]

So, if TJ does decide to include special biomes for every future holiday, this is what I see happening...

 

1. The limit of 2 CBs per scroll stays in place.

Pros: The cave will be under a lighter load which will reduce lag, CBs will be fairly easy to catch

Cons: Older players who froze hatchlings will be excluded, Snow Angels and Aegises will still be a pain to build lineages with, the risk of multiscrolling grows

 

2. The limit is raised permanently once to, say, 4.

Pros: Everyone gets to participate but CBs still remain easier to grab, continuing lineages will become easier

Cons: Eventually there will be very few people hunting in the special holiday biome (only new players or those who missed the previous event), older players who froze their original CBs will have to choose between releasing their frozens and getting more CB adults

 

3. The limit is lifted and everyone can lock themselves with CB goodies.

Pros: Everyone gets to participate, breeding will be much easier in the future, gifting is very much encouraged

Cons: CB Val '09s and Hollies will take over the trading threads (just like Pumpkins did this year) and lead to drama, the lag will be terrible

 

An increasing limit every year was also mentioned, but I really can't see TJ agreeing to that. It would be a lot of coding work. It's not a bad suggestion...just unlikely.

 

Personally, after thinking about it for some time, I think I could get used to any of the above methods. Sure, I like how relaxed the holidays are now because of the limits, but I would also love to have two of each Aegis type. So I'm pretty neutral.

 

So there really is no perfect option. No matter what happens, there will be downsides and people will be unhappy, unfortunately. That's unavoidable. This is just my take on it based on my own personal experiences.

Edited November 2, 2017 by The Dragoness

[TCA]

28 minutes ago, The Dragoness said:

So, if TJ does decide to include special biomes for every future holiday, this is what I see happening...

 

1. The limit of 2 CBs per scroll stays in place.

Pros: The cave will be under a lighter load which will reduce lag, CBs will be fairly easy to catch

Cons: Older players who froze hatchlings will be excluded, Snow Angels and Aegises will still be a pain to build lineages with, the risk of multiscrolling grows

 

2. The limit is raised permanently once to, say, 4.

Pros: Everyone gets to participate but CBs still remain easier to grab, continuing lineages will become easier

Cons: Eventually there will be very few people hunting in the special holiday biome (only new players or those who missed the previous event), older players who froze their original CBs will have to choose between releasing their frozens and getting more CB adults

 

3. The limit is lifted and everyone can lock themselves with CB goodies.

Pros: Everyone gets to participate, breeding will be much easier in the future, gifting is very much encouraged

Cons: CB Val '09s and Hollies will take over the trading threads (just like Pumpkins did this year) and lead to drama, the lag will be terrible

 

I'm in strong support of 2 (although to 5 instead of 4) or 3. Either or.

[Bison]

After reading through the rest of the thread and thinking it over, these are the options I support in order of preference. For all of them I'm pretty meh about new breed limits. I'm fine keeping the 2 egg limit on their initial release, but if we keep having holiday dragons with CB alts (like Aegis and maybe Solstice; we don't know how they'd go) I strongly feel all users should be able to get all CB alts on release. If some limit must remain I'm VERY supportive of a 5 CB limit. 4 or 6 would both be fine but I love that a limit of 5 would be much less punishing on older users who were here during the hard coded 2 holidays each ever limit and wanted to keep a hatchling, users who didn't know better, users who changed playstyle over the years, etc.

 

1. Remove all limits on rereleases

2. Have a small increase for the first year of rereleases (5, 6, or 4 total) and remove all limits the next year

3. Increase the limit to 5

4. Increase the limit to 6 or 4

 

But overall I agree with people who think the ratios will even out in a couple years as demand is met and surpassed. Without Hollies in the equation, I don't see any reason to limit CB Christmas or Valentine dragons. Even with Hollies, people will get bored over time. It will be difficult to get them for the first couple of years but after that people will move on. Some people will still hoard Hollies out of sheer love of the breed, some won't want any past their personal scroll goals, some will pick them up if they see them, and others won't want any at all. If we get a Christmas rerelease the worth of Hollies will plummet into the ground. There would likely still be some hype to work on lineages/get mates for a year or two, but imo after that they'll just be another holiday dragon.

 

I really don't think we should be focusing on what Holly eggs are worth right now as a basis for how to handle Christmas/Valentine's rereleases because that worth would be gone in an instant. G2 Hollies are the rarest eggs in the game right now, by far, and that would immediately end upon a rerelease with or without limits. Some people might offer crazy things for CB eggs the first year or two but it wouldn't last. Hollies are only so valuable because they're so incredibly rare. Take away that rarity and trades will get more reasonable as people get their fill. G2 eggs would actually be able to be found and bred and requested. It would be nothing like trying to get one now.

[Sazandora]

I'm still against the idea of the limits being removed entirely. Sure, I'd love to get a second enraged Aegis, but... I'm not so sure, man. The lag in this Halloween was absolutely unbearable, and still is. Now imagine how abysmally DC would run if the old Holidays were re-released with no limits. Not to mention the aforementioned drama with Pumpins dominating trading threads, and how Valentine '09s and Hollies would dominate the threads then. It's inevitable.

 

Now raising the (CB) limits to 4 or maybe 6... that's something I can definitely agree with.

[LibbyLishly]

4 minutes ago, Sazandora said:

I'm still against the idea of the limits being removed entirely. Sure, I'd love to get a second enraged Aegis, but... I'm not so sure, man. The lag in this Halloween was absolutely unbearable, and still is. Now imagine how abysmally DC would run if the old Holidays were re-released with no limits. Not to mention the aforementioned drama with Pumpins dominating trading threads, and how Valentine '09s and Hollies would dominate the threads then. It's inevitable.

 

Now raising the (CB) limits to 4 or maybe 6... that's something I can definitely agree with.

It's totally valid to not want limits removed for whatever reason, but just wanted to argue two points:

 

1. The lag is nothing some updated hardware can't fix, and we don't know that TJ doesn't already have that planned.

2. A simple fix for the trading threads would be to make separate threads for bred swaps vs CB trades, with rules dictated accordingly, if the trade forum mods approved it. Personally, I traded exactly one egg in the trading forums (someone actually gave me a CB Pumpkin for a CB Desipis - what!), and I gave away a bunch of Pumpkins and Marrows to folks who needed them.

 

But again, it's totally valid for you to just flat-out not want limits eliminated (even if I do). Just those two reasons have fairly easy workarounds.

[Lurhstaap]

On 10/29/2017 at 7:03 PM, Marrionetta said:

I think for old stuff a free for all is cool. It's like a past holiday yardsale with last year's tickle me elmo.

 

This is about where I fall too. It makes sense to me to limit the NEW CB to two a person, but with stuff from past years, why not go wholesale, especially since the biome will be up for a whole week and the existing limits on scrolls will keep people from endlessly gorging on the Hollies, Yules, and Val '09s to the detriment of others? No matter how good you or even if you cheat, eventually, your scroll is full and you have to drop out. 

 

With that said, I have to admit that if there were no limits on any of them, I would probably spend lots more time gifting. It's a lot easier to grab and dump batches when I can grab more than two at a time. So the idea that the limits are about the seasonal theme differences doesn't entirely work for me. This is certainly a generous community no matter what. I have both given and gotten many wonderful things. But it's also undeniable that HAVING more allows GIVING more, and vise versa. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Lurhstaap

[Dragon_Arbock]

3 hours ago, Lurhstaap said:

 

This is about where I fall too. It makes sense to me to limit the NEW CB to two a person, but with stuff from past years, why not go wholesale, especially since the biome will be up for a whole week and the existing limits on scrolls will keep people from endlessly gorging on the Hollies, Yules, and Val '09s to the detriment of others? No matter how good you or even if you cheat, eventually, your scroll is full and you have to drop out. 

 

Yeah, the limits on scrolls have really stopped me just with this holiday. Even without being egglocked, I've gotten hatchie locked twice. I don't think hoarding would be effective.

[EscapistLore]

10 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Yeah, the limits on scrolls have really stopped me just with this holiday. Even without being egglocked, I've  gotten hatchie locked twice. I don't think hoarding would be effective.

 

 

I'll just sneak in here and throw out that I've had to my name around... hmm. 27ish new CB hatchlings? Ish. I don't feel like mathing to get an exact, but 22 I know I had and then I've caught a few today.. Of course, not all at the same time, but trading IOUs... Have you seen how many Desipis PieMaster has? Scroll limits don't always guarantee that thats the max someone can actually get.

 

I still prefer the limit stays in some way or form, really. I've seen a few suggestions here I would be OK with, such as the limit for the first year and then none for the second (Still my favorite as I feel that addresses everyones concerns)

[Dragon_Arbock]

1 minute ago, EscapistLore said:

 

 

I'll just sneak in here and throw out that I've had to my name around... hmm. 27ish new CB hatchlings? Ish. I don't feel like mathing to get an exact, but 22 I know I had and then I've caught a few today.. Of course, not all at the same time, but trading IOUs... Have you seen how many Desipis PieMaster has? Scroll limits don't always guarantee that thats the max someone can actually get.

 

I still prefer the limit stays in some way or form, really. I've seen a few suggestions here I would be OK with, such as the limit for the first year and then none for the second (Still my favorite as I feel that addresses everyones concerns)

Trading is a different story. Trading has broken this game many times over. I'm talking as someone who didn't trade at all, and has nothing to offer for a handful of low-time CB hatchlings (and not everything I'm locked with is CB. A lot were AP stuff).

[EscapistLore]

Just now, Dragon_Arbock said:

Trading is a different story. Trading has broken this game many times over. I'm talking as someone who didn't trade at all, and has nothing to offer for a handful of low-time CB hatchlings (and not everything I'm locked with is CB. A lot were AP stuff).

 

You can't really claim people can't hoard, though, without considering trading. It's still an aspect that will be affected by this, peoples ability to trade for eggs and hatchlings means they end up hoarding and others go without who wanted. *shrugs* Hoarding is an issue, and though you may trade, or not, it's still a factor in the hoarding all teh [insert holiday dragon here.]

 

I've been gifting/trading and while I've had an insane about of these hatchlings, I'll be keeping only 8. I know quite a few who are keeping way more.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

3 minutes ago, EscapistLore said:

 

You can't really claim people can't hoard, though, without considering trading. It's still an aspect that will be affected by this, peoples ability to trade for eggs and hatchlings means they end up hoarding and others go without who wanted. *shrugs* Hoarding is an issue, and though you may trade, or not, it's still a factor in the hoarding all teh [insert holiday dragon here.]

 

I've been gifting/trading and while I've had an insane about of these hatchlings, I'll be keeping only 8. I know quite a few who are keeping way more.

I have to agree with this statement. I jumped from having 8 Witchlights to having over thirty *coughs*EscaWavingtheminfromtofme*cough* but now that my scroll goals are 100% complete for Halloween, next year I'm going to hoard nothing but Witchlights and trade for some if necessary

[Dragon_Arbock]

Well this is why I'd be okay with a yearly limit, but people keep insisting TJ won't do that, so I'd rather have no limit than a forever unchanging limit.

[Guillotine]

23 hours ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Well this is why I'd be okay with a yearly limit, but people keep insisting TJ won't do that, so I'd rather have no limit than a forever unchanging limit.

It's not insisting so much as "He vetoed it and we have seen nothing to indicate that he's changed his mind". Same with the raised limits vs rereleases thing (which was much more recent).

 

...But again, I doubt that we'll have limits added for old CBs considering how limits work.
 

[Empererpenguin]

I agree with the people who want the limit raised to four. It's better for the people who want frozen hatchlings and everyone has at least four egg slots so there won't be people who can't get the limit if they want to.

[Lady Artemis]

I wouldn't like the limit lifted entirely, but maybe raised to four

[LadyLyzar]

Merged this topic with the newer one created after old Halloween were re-released as CBs.

[tjekan]

I like the fact that the Holiday dragons have a limit and the Halloween ones don't. It gives the two collecting events two significantly different characters. (Unlike Valentine's day, which always feels like it's just a sort of retread of Christmas.)

 

But I'm enthusiastic about the return of old Holiday CB's, even though the Holly competition would be a bloodbath. I only have one Yulebuck and Snow Angel, and I Enraged one of my Aegises. I'd love to be able to complete those collections even if the Holly doesn't happen for me.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@raindear you are right that there are a lot of generous people around, but I agree with Cyradis that I find Halloweens much easier to procure than Christmas / Valentines, despite asking and pleading and even offering shinies. It's a simple matter of supply versus demand; there are that many less to go around for the same amount of need. I have just as many Valentine lines I want to do as Halloween lines, but with a limit of 2, it's always been much harder to find people gifting them (or perhaps, simply, ones who haven't already gifted! XD). I don't think it's a matter of people being greedy--people here are VERY generous--but at the same time, people want to play the game, y'know? I love gifting, but when it comes down to it, if I have a dozen Rosebud lineages I want to make, and only one CB Rosebud (I froze one when they were limited...  ), then yes, I'm keeping that puppy for myself. Many others feel the same way, and again, the people who still gift even then are often swamped with requests and can't help everybody.

 

I also don't think the holiday insanity if old CBs return will lead to as much hoarding as everyone assumes. Will the first year or maybe even two see a huge race to get Hollies and other old breeds? Well, duh--because they're proportionally so rare. But the number of those CBs around is going to increase EXPONENTIALLY after a year. The insanity will not last. Obviously Halloweens aren't quite as crazy as Hollies will be that first year, but there was still a decent demand for CB Marrows / Pumpkins this year, and even then I found CBs in the AP and up for cheap trades. A return of old CBs will decrease hoarding greatly in the long run, and be a big improvement over the intense struggle to find 2g Hollies and other old pretties that goes on now, where only the wealthiest or luckiest ever get one.

 

And to move even more directly to the question at hand--while I'd love a removal of the limits, TJ actually pointed out what I think was the only valid concern of doing so named thus far: that he wants to cause as little stress to players around those holidays as possible. Valentines isn't a huge deal for anyone who's not lovely dovey, so I think that could be passable, but Christmas is a pretty huge deal for most people in the states (which is where most players are). So I could see arguing for a limit from that perspective. In that case, though, I think a limit of 2 per breed per year (or 4!) would meet both needs. I'm not sure if TJ's views on the matter are still the same, but he did once say he was against the idea of how many CB holidays a person could have being determined by the math equation of 2x(years around). However I hope he might reconsider this. Yes, older players will have more than newer players... but how's that different from any other aspect of the game? Plus, if old CBs do return, hopefully new or old, almost everyone will soon have enough CBs to meet their needs, and won't feel they're missing out much for not having as much as some older folks :3