ANSWERED:Lift CB Valentine / Christmas Limit?

[Inutomaru]

I can't say that I am a big fan of re-releasing old Holidays as CB. 
To me,re-releasing Hollies, and old Valentines would make them lose what makes them special; their rarity.

I'm more than happy to breed the ones I have to users if they'd like one, but to see them become available in the cave would be disappointing, and leave me feeling a bit bitter.

When I won a silver prize back in '13, I chose to get a CB Holly instead of a silver shimmer because, at the time, I knew I would never have the chance again to get a CB Holly.
So for me to see other people catching CB Hollies where I had given up a prize dragon to get mine, it wouldn't exactly leave a good taste in my mouth.

 

I do, however, agree to increase the limit you can catch per year. 

With our scrolls being able to carry more eggs at a time depending on what trophy you have it would make sense to increase the amount of Holiday eggs that you might grab with each trophy level increase.

Something like that makes sense, and to me is something that should have been changed back when the trophies were implemented. 

 

 

((I know personal bias shouldn't get in the way of making a decision, but in a situation like this it is hard not to.))

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Inutomaru old holidays were never meant to be rare, though. They are only 'rare' by virtue of not having had that many players around at the time. They didn't require special effort to get; some of us were just more fortunate than others. Keeping them limited goes against the spirit of their respective holidays, not with it.

 

I'm sorry that your Holly would be devalued, but at the same time--you've had several years to enjoy that exclusivity. People who chose prizes are also much in the same boat as you, so having chosen a prize wouldn't have put you much better off; prize values are, presumably, going to continue to go down with the prevalence of the new monthly raffles. I'll admit it's strange that people who chose CB hybrids are now the most exclusive owners of them all, but if a shop is ever added (and I really hope it is!), that could be balanced out. I mean... again, you have my sympathies, but like original prize owners you've had quite a few years to enjoy the epicness of your win. I don't think retaining exclusivity for a small handful of people is a good reason to forever bar newer players from getting old holidays. What's best for the cave as a whole is what should be done.

 

And again, I do get where you're coming from. I don't have a CB Holly and thus my experiences are a magnitude of order different from yours, but I do own three (!) 2g Hollies, a CB Yulebuck, CB Pumpkins, 11 original CB Marrows,  and a CB Valentine. The offspring from most of those, especially the Hollies, are pretty valuable. I remember after my initial elation at seeing CB Halloweens return I felt a teeny bit sad that maybe people wouldn't come to me to ask me to breed them 2g Halloweens any more. Same thing with the raffles; I have dozens of 2g Prizes, and the return of raffles slowly but surely crept the value of their 3gs down. So again, while not as extreme a case as yours, I do know the sadness of seeing special things go down in value... but at the same time, I don't think clinging to that value at the expense of others is fair. We've gotten used to a world where CB Hollies and Prizes are the Kings and Queens, but I think it would be better if the system slowly but surely returned to CB Golds and Silvers taking that role--things that all users can aspire to get, and thus, things that make new players feel the game is worth investing in, rather than being a system that's rigged in favor of the old or lucky. Hard work and patience should be more rewarded than random chance or simply having been around in earlier years.

Edited November 7, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[RainDear]

2 hours ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

@raindear you are right that there are a lot of generous people around, but I agree with Cyradis that I find Halloweens much easier to procure than Christmas / Valentines, despite asking and pleading and even offering shinies. It's a simple matter of supply versus demand; there are that many less to go around for the same amount of need. I have just as many Valentine lines I want to do as Halloween lines, but with a limit of 2, it's always been much harder to find people gifting them (or perhaps, simply, ones who haven't already gifted! XD). I don't think it's a matter of people being greedy--people here are VERY generous--but at the same time, people want to play the game, y'know? I love gifting, but when it comes down to it, if I have a dozen Rosebud lineages I want to make, and only one CB Rosebud (I froze one when they were limited...  ), then yes, I'm keeping that puppy for myself. Many others feel the same way, and again, the people who still gift even then are often swamped with requests and can't help everybody.

 

I also don't think the holiday insanity if old CBs return will lead to as much hoarding as everyone assumes. Will the first year or maybe even two see a huge race to get Hollies and other old breeds? Well, duh--because they're proportionally so rare. But the number of those CBs around is going to increase EXPONENTIALLY after a year. The insanity will not last. Obviously Halloweens aren't quite as crazy as Hollies will be that first year, but there was still a decent demand for CB Marrows / Pumpkins this year, and even then I found CBs in the AP and up for cheap trades. A return of old CBs will decrease hoarding greatly in the long run, and be a big improvement over the intense struggle to find 2g Hollies and other old pretties that goes on now, where only the wealthiest or luckiest ever get one.

 

And to move even more directly to the question at hand--while I'd love a removal of the limits, TJ actually pointed out what I think was the only valid concern of doing so named thus far: that he wants to cause as little stress to players around those holidays as possible. Valentines isn't a huge deal for anyone who's not lovely dovey, so I think that could be passable, but Christmas is a pretty huge deal for most people in the states (which is where most players are). So I could see arguing for a limit from that perspective. In that case, though, I think a limit of 2 per breed per year (or 4!) would meet both needs. I'm not sure if TJ's views on the matter are still the same, but he did once say he was against the idea of how many CB holidays a person could have being determined by the math equation of 2x(years around). However I hope he might reconsider this. Yes, older players will have more than newer players... but how's that different from any other aspect of the game? Plus, if old CBs do return, hopefully new or old, almost everyone will soon have enough CBs to meet their needs, and won't feel they're missing out much for not having as much as some older folks :3 

 

I wish you had asked me. If there are any 2 gen Holiday or Valentine's you are still in the market for just ask. I seldom get requests and can only remember 1 Holiday I actually had to turn 1 request down. Yes, because of the way the limits have been, there are many more Halloweens to breed/give away and some people have breeding projects that take up some of their breeding pairs, but some of us still have breedings available that aren't requested and not everyone just breeds for the AP because they don't want their babies killed or orphaned. I seldom breed for myself except for the hybrids, so my dragons are generally available for requests.

 

As far as this question - I am sure that if TJ is going to have Holiday/Valentine's biomes he will have the coding set for what he wants to do. I don't really care whether there are limits or not. I don't really think it matters. If there are no limits those who want lots will get lots, those who have modest scroll goals will get fewer. I would love to catch Hollies. If there is no limit, I may go for two more of each Holiday or Valentine's, but maybe I will settle for two of the one gender breeds, since my scroll goal is for two pairs of most things. Sometimes I catch a few more. Though, I admit I went a little crazy for Alt Sweetlings when the limit was lifted on bred Valentine's. I managed to catch a Silver in the cave during Halloween week, and I wasn't even looking for it. I hope we do get Holiday/Valentine's biomes. If we do I will hunt Hollies like everybody else, and hope I can get two.

[Terces]

On 2017-11-02 at 2:56 PM, cyradis4 said:

What if you had each breed drop in *inverse* proportion to what is currently on scrolls in CB form? That way, Hollies would drop by far the most common, followed by Yulebucks, then the rest, with the most recently past Holiday the "rarest". That way, you can have no limits, while still spreading the oldest Holidays the furthest. In one year.... it would be equalized.

 

Quoting from pages back, but I just wanted to say this is an interesting idea. I don't feel strongly about keeping or raising or removing limits (doesn't matter that much to me, I'll be content no matter what happens), but assuming the re-releases continue I'd like to see more drops from the underpopulated Holiday breeds to balance things out faster. I'd be nice if the gap between ultra-rare and regular could be mostly closed in a year instead of waiting 2-3 years imo. Even if, for example, Hollies were 2-3 times as likely to appear in the cave versus other breeds, I bet every single one would find a place on someones scroll especially if limits are lifted or removed.

 

Maybe TJ is already doing that, I have no idea what the ratios were for the Halloween re-release. I did see a consistent desire for CB Pumpkins and Black Marrows in the trading threads throughout the week so I can imagine it would be much stronger for Hollies. In the end I'd love to see as many happy people as possible.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Looks like it might be too late this year again, but I still think at the very least a raising to four would do no harm and make much good.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I think after this year, they should be, and raised every year.. because well otherwise only a small percentage of people will be able to use the holiday biome.

[LibbyLishly]

Still support. Maybe this year the majority of players can get caught up and then next year everyone can be permitted to catch more.

[KrazyKarp]

I'm still in support of keeping limits for the first year to allow players to catch up (so Christmas 2017 and Valentine 2018), them removing limits entirely from then on (so starting Christmas 2018 and Valentine 2019). I really do think this is the best of both worlds.

[Paradisiske]

On 12/18/2017 at 9:59 AM, KrazyKarp said:

I'm still in support of keeping limits for the first year to allow players to catch up (so Christmas 2017 and Valentine 2018), them removing limits entirely from then on (so starting Christmas 2018 and Valentine 2019). I really do think this is the best of both worlds.

I agree. If the limits stay now then next year the holiday biome will barely be used. might as well not even implement it as virtually none of the eggs from it will be picked up. However, if the limits are gone then people can grab as many as they want and hoard, trade, gift. Yeah there will be some difficulty getting cb hollies and whatnot but there is already difficulty getting them now and people myself included are less likely to gift the ones that they caught because if you can have only two why give up one of them???? Being left with one is horrible lineage wise because if your one single cb holly refuses a cb gold, cb silver, cb prize its not going to be fun at all. But with two you have a backup.

 

Now lets say the most people could pick up is 8. You decide to keep 4, trade 2 and gift the last 2. You now have 4 cb hollies, 2 random dragons you wanted that you traded for and you made one or two people happy by giving them their own cb holly. Now some people are gonna say but there's no way that I can catch 8 cb hollies!!!! heres the thing though luvs, as the years go by with the limit gone the market gets saturated and the hollies get easier to catch. You will be able to catch 8 cb hollies one day. You may not be able to use them to trade for ultra rare things but thats a good thing because the market is insane. 

[DaniBoo]

On 18/12/2017 at 9:59 AM, KrazyKarp said:

I'm still in support of keeping limits for the first year to allow players to catch up (so Christmas 2017 and Valentine 2018), them removing limits entirely from then on (so starting Christmas 2018 and Valentine 2019). I really do think this is the best of both worlds.

 

This would put new players st a huge disadvantage though. Players who signed up, say in the middle of 2018, would have a very hard time collecting CB Christmas dragons if the limits were lifted like this.

 

Players were upset that they missed CB holidays because they weren't around to catch them, so why make it harder for new players that missed them as well? Everyone has a chance to get their hands on a CB holiday, we don't need to start getting greedy  

On 23/12/2017 at 5:16 PM, CellyBean said:

I agree. If the limits stay now then next year the holiday biome will barely be used. might as well not even implement it as virtually none of the eggs from it will be picked up.

 

True, the holiday biome won't be used by players who have reached the limit but it will be used by new players.

 

I support a raised limit to 4 CB holidays, but taking away that limit gives puts new players and players without certain breeds at a disadvantage when the limits were set to give everyone a level playing field.

 

[Dragon_Arbock]

2 minutes ago, DaniBoo said:

 

This would put new players st a huge disadvantage though. Players who signed up, say in the middle of 2018, would have a very hard time collecting CB Christmas dragons if the limits were lifted like this.

 

Players were upset that they missed CB holidays because they weren't around to catch them, so why make it harder for new players that missed them as well? Everyone has a chance to get their hands on a CB holiday, we don't need to start getting greedy  

 

It's not greedy. People want to play the game their own way. collect and breed their own dragons rather than having to rely on other people to complete their projects. And no, most people won't want more than maybe 4 or 8 of a breed, and egg limits would help newbies out to an extent. Halloween went fine, I don't see why Christmas or Valentines wouldn't.

[49ER]

I want the limits the same, at least for this year.  If thee were no limits, my scroll would be forever locked with newest cb's and I would have no chance at getting hollies

[DaniBoo]

3 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

 

It's not greedy. People want to play the game their own way. collect and breed their own dragons rather than having to rely on other people to complete their projects. And no, most people won't want more than maybe 4 or 8 of a breed, and egg limits would help newbies out to an extent. Halloween went fine, I don't see why Christmas or Valentines wouldn't.

 

I've been playing for 7 years and the limits have helped me greatly on completing my CB holiday collections. It helps everyone, and raising the limit to 4 CB eggs is more than enough to have backup for rejections and projects. We have unlimited access to bred holidays, CBs shouldn't be hoarded in my opinion.

 

As for Halloween, it went a lot smoother because there never have been limits and it's a greedy holiday. I have no use picking up say, 5 more Cavern Lurkers when I already have 7 cbs sitting on my scroll. Holiday dragons would be much more coveted due to past limits which is why it would be way harder to get CBs of certain breeds compared to Halloween.

[Dragon_Arbock]

@DaniBoo I have been playing for 8 years, and I've never had any problem getting CBs outside of the times I forgot. The amount of time you have played is irrelevant.

After this year, everyone should be on equal ground with Christmas CBs, so lifting the limit will hurt no one. Let people compete, it's better than trade prices being high cause the number of CBs is so limited.

[Whirlaway]

Four CBs of Christmas and Valentines is the max I would want to see. Then one could have two pacified and two Enraged Aegis, etc. And four also does not make to much of a giant difference from two. 

 

But still, I don't mind the two limit, never have through all my years since 2009 of playing DC.

[DaniBoo]

Just now, Dragon_Arbock said:

@DaniBoo I have been playing for 8 years, and I've never had any problem getting CBs outside of the times I forgot. The amount of time you have played is irrelevant.

After this year, everyone should be on equal ground with Christmas CBs, so lifting the limit will hurt no one. Let people compete, it's better than trade prices being high cause the number of CBs is so limited.

 

You miss my initial point, everyone will be on equal ground aside from players who signed up in 2018 and missed this year's drop. 

 

Plenty of players wanted to CB holidays to drop because they missed out due to the year they joined. Why would we lift the limits and put new players in a very competitive setting? The came is competitive as it is, and while it has been difficult to catch some CB holidays such as Hollies and Yulebucks, all players have a greater chance to obtain one with limits in place than without them.

[Dragon_Arbock]

@DaniBoo Again, newbies were fine with Halloween. If it takes longer than a year to get everything (and it will with or without limits if they only have 4 egg slots), then so be it. To me, the point of the limits this year were because we had under 200 CB hollies total. Of course they would be valuable this year- but next year? They'll be no more valuable than anything else.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Dragon_Arbock

[Guillotine]

But would the biome even move enough for new players to get the dragons they don't have once all the old players are locked out by limits?

 

e: And yes, newbies were fine with Halloween; while a limit was needed this year, next year I doubt it'll be as intense a competition (particularly since a lot of players won't care as much about Hollies now that they aren't obscenely rare)
 

Edited December 25, 2017 by Guillotine

[Shadowdrake]

Honestly I don't care about hollies, never have beyond CB scroll completion, but from the way the cave was this whole week (5 minute drops going in 15 seconds, if the cave lagged you were out of luck, 80-100 in the biome per drop) it's obvious that demand is still outstripping supply no matter what breed despite a full week of eggs, eggs and more eggs. No breed is sticking more than a few seconds in the biome, and CBs of any breed in the AP are much, much rarer than CBs of individual breeds in Halloween, indicating that people are taking and keeping both the old limited breeds and the newer eggs too.

 

Quite frankly if TJ wanted Christmas week to have been less stressful and more giving like he often comments this wasn't the best way to go about it. There should have been more eggs, not less. Cave clogging isn't even an actual difference when people have wait for the 5-minute turnover both when there are no eggs and too many eggs. In light of this, I would only support no limits if the egg generation for these formerly-limited breeds was adjusted to generate many more eggs than there would be normally, especially since just doubling the limit to 4 would result in the exact same problem next year, and going up to a hypothetical demand of 8 dragons triples the demand of this year for all dragons.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Shadowdrake

[Dragon_Arbock]

I feel like there were a lot more eggs being generated during Halloween. I'm not sure why the drops are so sparse right now. I know TJ tweaked the ratios to make things like Snows drop less often, but the stock is quite low- on top of the few times they've failed to spawn at the top of the hour.

[Whirlaway]

Should have been constant eggs through the hour if he wanted to really go with the 'less stressful and more giving' side of the Holidays event to be there for rereleases. I liked getting the chance to have Winter Magi and Snow Angel CBs a lot, and only collected two Hollies and two Ribbon Dancers because I was gifted one and collected the other three by chance but it was not 'stressless' to grab them and it was annoying - even when egglocked - to see how brief each Holidays drop was for the number of people on the biome.

 

I do really believe the limits being raised will only eventually make it so people want the limits to be raised higher and higher and, though I said four would be the most I could accept, I still believe in the two as a limit for Holidays and Valentines dragons.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Condorflight

[Dragon_Arbock]

@Condorflight I still think the best model is +2 CBs per year.. that way there's still a limit, so people still have a chance, but it's a flexible limit and everyone can get the number they want with time.

 

And yeah.. I don't know why it's not a solid wall of eggs.

[Whirlaway]

I mean, logically to me, one would think that the Holidays biome should have at least been flooded straight for at least two days. That most likely would have helped some of the frustration that was caused by the missing hour drops and super short five minute drops. But whatever, lol.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Condorflight

[olympe]

7 hours ago, Condorflight said:

Should have been constant eggs through the hour if he wanted to really go with the 'less stressful and more giving' side of the Holidays event to be there for rereleases. I liked getting the chance to have Winter Magi and Snow Angel CBs a lot, and only collected two Hollies and two Ribbon Dancers because I was gifted one and collected the other three by chance but it was not 'stressless' to grab them and it was annoying - even when egglocked - to see how brief each Holidays drop was for the number of people on the biome.

 

I do really believe the limits being raised will only eventually make it so people want the limits to be raised higher and higher and, though I said four would be the most I could accept, I still believe in the two as a limit for Holidays and Valentines dragons.

Well, it does help if you go hunting on day 2/4/6 of the week, instead of 1/3/5 when everyone is filling up their scrolls. And, of course, it helps to hunt at unusual times - meaning not between noon and midnight EST.  I'm not a good catcher by any measure, but even I managed to get my hands on everything I still needed as CB (two hollies and yules, respectively).

 

ETA: I also think that totally unlimited might be a bad idea, but a +2/year or 2 growing things at any one time wouldn't be too bad. Although people would probably get +4 of their favorite breed(s) if they put their mind to it - or more through trading.

Edited December 25, 2017 by olympe

[TJ09]

9 hours ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I feel like there were a lot more eggs being generated during Halloween. I'm not sure why the drops are so sparse right now. I know TJ tweaked the ratios to make things like Snows drop less often, but the stock is quite low- on top of the few times they've failed to spawn at the top of the hour.

Same logic for number of eggs for both, actually.