ANSWERED:Lift CB Valentine / Christmas Limit?

[Moonlight_Eevee]

Just now, StarSea said:

Just going to put my thought out there, and I'm sure it's probably an extremely rare take on the limits, but...

To me the "Christmas and Valentines are about giving" in relation to the CB limit means encouraging giving offspring. If you only have 2 CBs, and you don't want to inbreed, you're going to have to get help from others with it. While yeah, they might rather trade, there are a lot of nice people who are more than happy to gift their offspring instead. It also encourages connecting to others from the userbase and while I enjoy that DC is rather secluded for the most part, the little dependency and connection that this gives (and can even require) is nice.

The limit doesn't have to mean giving CBs, it can mean giving offspring and helping with lineages by breeding instead. Other than the Christmas, Valentines, and GoN limits, I don't believe there's any other aspect of the site that encourages you to rely on others and be generous with your offspring to directly help others due to limits like this does.

Oh! That's a nice way of looking at it. I know some lineages wouldn't exist without help.

[_DeadPool_]

1 minute ago, StarSea said:

Just going to put my thought out there, and I'm sure it's probably an extremely rare take on the limits, but...

To me the "Christmas and Valentines are about giving" in relation to the CB limit means encouraging giving offspring. If you only have 2 CBs, and you don't want to inbreed, you're going to have to get help from others with it. While yeah, they might rather trade, there are a lot of nice people who are more than happy to gift their offspring instead. It also encourages connecting to others from the userbase and while I enjoy that DC is rather secluded for the most part, the little dependency and connection that this gives (and can even require) is nice.

The limit doesn't have to mean giving CBs, it can mean giving offspring and helping with lineages by breeding instead. Other than the Christmas, Valentines, and GoN limits, I don't believe there's any other aspect of the site that encourages you to rely on others and be generous with your offspring to directly help others due to limits like this does.

This. This is what it's about. This is beautiful, and its the best part of those holidays IMO

[Marrionetta]

I have no idea what these mythical people with fast internet connections look like, because if I sit and camp on my very slow base level comcast internet for a while I can and have caught CB metals before. Eventually you get lucky. I feel like this "super capable fast internet having hoarder" is a boogeyman of an idea and may not actually exist. The only super good catcher I've ever known is a forum user who is also notoriously generous. My point is I don't know that high demand or low success on click catching from the cave is actually due to competition from a select few - I think it's more than likely a sheer volume problem. Lots of hunters, only a few target eggs.

Edited November 1, 2017 by LadyLyzar
Drama removal

[Shadowdrake]

26 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Again. The first reason 'spirit of christmas', is fully a reason based only on personal beliefs. Not everyone shares these ideals. It has no gameplay reason behind it. Nothing but ideology.

You're right. It's also TJ's ideology. Just saying.

 

23 minutes ago, Marrionetta said:

The only argument I'm really seeing articulated here for maintaining limits is fear of competition. That isn't a good reason.

Sure, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Not for me personally, but for others.

 

49 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

But mobile is inferior.

I caught 3 cb silvers in 3 weeks once I got a mobile device, so. Touchscreen's a lot faster than moving a mouse, and that's all that matters if all you want is a CB from the cave. I could say most PCs are inferior on that aspect.

 

16 minutes ago, LchTessMnstr said:

why do y'all need 498794347853907505555555555555 CBs? isn't 2 fine then you can just breed if you want more?

Because lineages, because CBs are exclusives, because there are bunches of messy holidays in the AP but only so-and-so CB hollies. Take your pick.

 

13 minutes ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

I see my family. This doesn't cut into my time that drastically. We eat dinner, exchange present, then leave.

Again, that's your situation, which is different from, say, someone's who has to take a day to fly to family, spends most of their day out with family that they see once or twice a year, then has to take a day to fly back.

 

9 minutes ago, Marrionetta said:

Also, even if you don't manage to get a full party of Hollies before the new egg drops, there's still the next year and the year after into perpetuity. The odds are already in favor of active players - pretty much anybody who wanted anything from the Halloween biome got what they wanted - nothing is all that rare. Even something as once-coveted (demand will fall in light of rereleases) as Hollies will eventually hit a saturation point; people will stop grabbing them with as much gusto. I see no reason to preserve past holiday limits to diminish competition - it will eventually become a non issue. Give it like 3 years - no one will care.

You're probably not wrong, if TJ does the same thing and rerelease eggs for a week straight. 

 

6 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

If availability is such an issue (even though it's been super easy to catch eggs after the rush) then how about instead of making something worse why not just have the cave drop more per round and have every biome dropping eggs instead of just the one.

I'd rather not full biome holiday rush, to be honest. I'm already kind of sick of all the Halloween eggs in the AP. Would rather not see a week of literally nothing but holidays.

 

 

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, I'm not interested in breeding or hoarding holidays because of the time limit and I'm one of the fast catchers who could probably catch everything in the first 2 hours of release if I wanted, so either way I'm personally fine with or without limits. I'd rather be considerate, though, and let everyone have a chance and then some. Again, not really concerned which way the wind blows.

 

 

Also we have a new thread for discussing mobile thanks

 

Edit: also also, being lucky sometime when you  have opportunity through the whole year is a little different than trying to get lucky during a short week interval, where if you don't you also don't get the chance for another year. Long-term, probably no issue. But it's a year, or two, if you are unlucky.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Shadowdrake

[Eos]

Completely agree with Marrionetta. I see no reason to keep the limits, either. There will be some initial competition, but the demand will die down over time if the holiday biome returns annually. 

[blockEdragon]

16 minutes ago, Shadowdrake said:

You're right. It's also TJ's ideology. Just saying.

 

Sure, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Not for me personally, but for others.

 

I caught 3 cb silvers in 3 weeks once I got a mobile device, so. Touchscreen's a lot faster than moving a mouse, and that's all that matters if all you want is a CB from the cave. I could say most PCs are inferior on that aspect.

 

Because lineages, because CBs are exclusives, because there are bunches of messy holidays in the AP but only so-and-so CB hollies. Take your pick.

 

Again, that's your situation, which is different from, say, someone's who has to take a day to fly to family, spends most of their day out with family that they see once or twice a year, then has to take a day to fly back.

 

You're probably not wrong, if TJ does the same thing and rerelease eggs for a week straight. 

 

I'd rather not full biome holiday rush, to be honest. I'm already kind of sick of all the Halloween eggs in the AP. Would rather not see a week of literally nothing but holidays.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, I'm not interested in breeding or hoarding holidays because of the time limit and I'm one of the fast catchers who could probably catch everything in the first 2 hours of release if I wanted, so either way I'm personally fine with or without limits. I'd rather be considerate, though, and let everyone have a chance and then some. Again, not really concerned which way the wind blows.

 

People do have a chance though, the rush only lasts a day at most, after that eggs sit for minutes and minutes at a time.

There were two rushes this time from my count. The first rush and the rush that came after the first batch hatched. After that everything has been pretty still and easy to grab.

Edited October 30, 2017 by blockEdragon

[EscapistLore]

Just now, blockEdragon said:

 

People do have a chance though, the rush only lasts a day at most, after that eggs sit for minutes and minutes at a time.

There where two rushes this time from my count. The first rush and the rush that came after the first batch hatched. After that everything has been pretty still and easy to grab.

I had been talking with a friend between the rushes. They tried for several hours to get CB pumpkins and it took a long while. Over Christmas, people may not have that time..

 

I'm like Shadow, though - I'm a fast catcher. Not the fastest for sure, but I was locked after an hour with the cbs, and I saw conversations with people not locked til the next day.

 

And Marri is right. Without the limits would eventually work out. It would. And I'd go on gifting with or without. That was very well spoken.

 

I just prefer a solution where people who can't compete don't be left out for this year and maybe next.

[blockEdragon]

7 minutes ago, EscapistLore said:

I had been talking with a friend between the rushes. They tried for several hours to get CB pumpkins and it took a long while. Over Christmas, people may not have that time..

 

I'm like Shadow, though - I'm a fast catcher. Not the fastest for sure, but I was locked after an hour with the cbs, and I saw conversations with people not locked til the next day.

 

And Marri is right. Without the limits would eventually work out. It would. And I'd go on gifting with or without. That was very well spoken.

 

I just prefer a solution where people who can't compete don't be left out for this year and maybe next.

If it's really that bad then more eggs should be dropped, I personally think all the biomes should have had holiday eggs if every biome dropped eggs (even if it was only a percentage of the drop so the crazy people could still catch commons) then there would be a lot more availability and the users would be spread out.

There could be the holiday biome that drops nothing but holidays and then the other biomes could drop maybe half holidays half normal (though that would quickly end in a biome clog) so that it's a bit more spread out.

Edited October 30, 2017 by blockEdragon

[EscapistLore]

1 minute ago, blockEdragon said:

Then more eggs should be dropped, the one biome is the issue, if every biome dropped eggs (even if it was only a percentage of the drop so the few crazy people could catch more commons) then there would e a lot more availability and the users would be spread out.

There could be the holiday biome that drops nothing but holidays and then the other biomes could drop maybe half holidays half normal (though that would quickly end in a biome clog) so that it's a bit more spread out.

That would increase the amount and make it easier for folks to get eggs, so thats not a bad proposal at all.

 

I'm not sure anyone'll change my mind about wanting the limits, but that..,wouldnt be the best alternative to me? But would still be a viable one.

[Fiona]

Here's something to consider. If the holiday biome at Christmas time works like the Halloween biome, then the old CB holiday dragons will drop for 7 days. Whether limits remain or are gone or are changed to something besides 2 there should be plenty of time for everyone to get what they want because 7 days is a lot of time to hunt.

[Jazeki]

Disregarding all other  recent commentary, I would be in favor of the following in addition to increasing the limit to four as proposed:

-an increased limit of five CB dragons

-an additional limit of 2 CB dragons per year

-half regular eggs/ half holiday eggs in non-holiday biomes

-more eggs in the holiday biome (maybe a second row like with the marrows)--though I'm not sure how this would work because supposedly they drop according to the number of people catching.

-possibly  increasing limits by trophy level

.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Jazeki

[HeatherMarie]

I actually think "I can get them easily so obviously everyone else can too so they should be unlimited because there won't be any problems" is the worst mindset in this thread. People are bringing up some very good, valid concerns, and others are just brushing them away because they don't believe it's a valid problem, even though people are saying through experience that it is.

 

It's true, after four or five years of old CBs dropping most older users would be able to get what they need regardless of limits/unlimited, and really sought-after breeds may not be so hard to get because more people will have their fill. But we aren't talking about four or five years from now (at least I'm not). I would like the game to be playable *now* to the best extent that it can be. If, just throwing numbers out there, 200 users are unable to get Hollies the first year because there are no limits so everyone else is snatching them up, but those 200 users could perhaps get them in year 2 or year 3.... If we maintain *some* sort of limit, it's very very likely that those 200 users would not be left out in the cold that first year. And maybe I'm just a short-term looker, but I'd much rather have *more* people be able to get *some* CBs *this* year, then have *some* people be able to get *tons* this year while others are left out.

 

And it sort of saddens me that people bring up very valid issues like mobile, internet speed, reflexes, etc etc and the response is basically "that's not a reason". Well if nothing we say is a valid reason then what's the point in having this discussion in the first place? It seems rather insulting when users bring up issues based on experience and others just shoot it down as not a valid reason.

Edited November 1, 2017 by LadyLyzar
Drama removal

[Moonlight_Eevee]

22 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

And it sort of saddens me that people bring up very valid issues like mobile, internet speed, reflexes, etc etc and the response is basically "that's not a reason". Well if nothing we say is a valid reason then what's the point in having this discussion in the first place? It seems rather insulting when users bring up issues based on experience and others just shoot it down as not a valid reason.

Can you clarify this a bit more? It's rather confusing

[blockEdragon]

Can everyone please stop throwing words like "selfish" and "greedy" around for having different opinions on how to make the holidays more fun?

 

If you have to insult someone to feel like you've won an argument instead of actually using good logic and reasoning then you haven't won, nor do you deserve to.

And if you had the logic and reasoning in the first place then why insult someone for no reason? JUST to make someone feel worse about themselves or back down? If you feel the need to insult someone into silence then you don't truly believe your views are right enough to truly back them when scrutiny comes by to test them. And if you did it just to hurt someone then I don't need to elaborate on why that's not good.

 

I have my views, you have yours, everyone has theirs, I am drawing from my experience like everyone else here is, if someone says the grass is purple but every time you have ever looked at it it's green are you merely "dismissing their experiences"? Yes, because from everything you've learned, grass doesn't come in purple and the person is WRONG.

Now if someone who never played dragon cave or even looked at it dismissed something it would be different but everyone here plays the same game, everyone here can see the grass, it's only a matter of determining who is the color blind one.

Edited October 31, 2017 by blockEdragon

[EscapistLore]

16 minutes ago, blockEdragon said:

Can everyone please stop throwing words like "selfish" and "greedy" around for having different opinions on how to make the holidays more fun?

 

If you have to insult someone to feel like you've won an argument instead of actually using good logic and reasoning then you haven't won, nor do you deserve to.

And if you had the logic and reasoning in the first place then why insult someone for no reason? JUST to make someone feel worse about themselves?

It's the equivalent of pooping on the chessboard, it doesn't mean you won.

 

I have my views, you have yours, everyone has theirs, I am drawing from my experience like everyone else here is, if someone says the grass is purple but every time you have ever looked at it it's green are you merely "dismissing their experiences"? Yes, because from everything you've learned, grass doesn't come in purple and the person is WRONG.

Now if someone who never played dragon cave or even looked at it dismissed something it would be different but everyone here plays the same game, everyone here can see the grass, it's only a matter of determining who is the color blind one.

And who knows - where I am, maybe the grass -is- purple. Everyone comes to the game with different abilities and different computers, or phones... Everyone's experiences could be right. We all have different opinions. 

 

I still feel that having a higher limit would make it the most fun for the most people. I don't think Marri, for eq, is greedy or selfish for indicating that she thinks otherwise, nor do I think you are. I will admit, it does sadden me a bit that the internet speed/reflexes thing is being discounted so much when it was a large issue for some people this past Halloween, as far as time spent hunting a breed, and Halloween didn't have a holly-rarity breed. And then I compare it to myself, who had no issues getting any egg or breed I wanted this Halloween and.. Well, I worry. That's what I do best, anyways.

 

Not for me. But... I'd hate for people to look back on the rerelease, if it happens, and be like.. man. That sucked. I didn't have the time to get what I wanted due to xyz, or, man, I wish I could have caught abc but I tried and couldn't. I know that won't be everyone, but.. man, I'd be sad if I were them. Perhaps for the first rerelease we need the limits, since hollies will go like mad.. but once everyone has,4, 5, whatever amount, next year might cool down a bit. I don't know. I just want as many people to be happy as possible, ya know? 

 

Edit - I just googled. There totally is purple grass! I didn't know that.

Edited October 31, 2017 by EscapistLore

[RainDear]

This is my opinion, just my opinion. I do not presume to speak for anyone else.

 

Everyone here is only able to express his own opinion based on his own experiences. No two people have the same experiences, nor can they see things exactly the same way. Dismissing another person's opinion or experience is not useful to the discussion.

 

Many of us think of ourselves as "ordinary" so we think if we are able to do something - whether that is catching a particular dragon or baking a cake - we think everyone else is able to do it, but that is not true. Just because I was able to catch just about everything I wanted on Dragon Cave doesn't mean that any one other person doesn't have a much different experience here.

 

In my experience at every holiday since I joined, there have always been a few wonderful people catching eggs, waiting for 5 hours and gifting them to catch more. Usually by the end of the release eggs were easier to catch even for those who had miserable luck catching other things in the cave. Then, there were holiday eggs in the AP for a while after the holiday drop ended.

 

I expect that if TJ is going to have the special biome for the holiday or for Valentine's he already has the coding he wants in place and ready to go. He has said before not to use "coding difficulty" as a reason for or against an idea. If past holidays are going to be released - and I certainly hope they are - I am willing to go with whatever he has in place. Limits or not, whether I finally catch CB Hollies or not I will be happy to see others get a chance to get the holidays they have been wanting for so long. I watch and hope.

 

 

[Jazeki]

There is such a thing as purple grass  (ninja'd by EscapistLore) and in the case of this situation, deciding who is "color blind" is subjective. In this situation, everyone is seeing purple grass. The users who have issues on mobile, with internet, etc. see purple grass because there are others who have no problem at all catching. The users who have no problem getting their holidays see purple grass because they got their dragons without a hitch and have yet to experience the issues that other users are talking about.

 

I think the idea here is to move past and accept the purple grass to have a happy medium where everyone can have a shot at having something they could not have. 

[blockEdragon]

17 minutes ago, EscapistLore said:

And who knows - where I am, maybe the grass -is- purple. Everyone comes to the game with different abilities and different computers, or phones... Everyone's experiences could be right. We all have different opinions. 

 

I still feel that having a higher limit would make it the most fun for the most people. I don't think Marri, for eq, is greedy or selfish for indicating that she thinks otherwise, nor do I think you are. I will admit, it does sadden me a bit that the internet speed/reflexes thing is being discounted so much when it was a large issue for some people this past Halloween, as far as time spent hunting a breed, and Halloween didn't have a holly-rarity breed. And then I compare it to myself, who had no issues getting any egg or breed I wanted this Halloween and.. Well, I worry. That's what I do best, anyways.

 

Not for me. But... I'd hate for people to look back on the rerelease, if it happens, and be like.. man. That sucked. I didn't have the time to get what I wanted due to xyz, or, man, I wish I could have caught abc but I tried and couldn't. I know that won't be everyone, but.. man, I'd be sad if I were them. Perhaps for the first rerelease we need the limits, since hollies will go like mad.. but once everyone has,4, 5, whatever amount, next year might cool down a bit. I don't know. I just want as many people to be happy as possible, ya know? 

 

Edit - I just googled. There totally is purple grass! I didn't know that.

Whaddaya know! You win that metaphorical debate, grass is purple sometimes. You experienced purple grass and proved my experiences to be incorrect/incomplete.

But what color is the metaphorical grass in our metaphorical location?

It's invisible and has no color! WHATATWIST!

 

 I'm keeping the metaphor though.

 

As for me I think the biomes should all drop maybe half CB holidays and the holiday biome should drop nothing but, a week of this would take a artfully terrible catcher to not get most of the holidays before the week ends, no extra limits needed because egg limits wouldn't be able to keep up with the sheer amount of eggs being dropped for more then a day, trophies do their job pretty well.

Edited October 31, 2017 by blockEdragon

[LadyLyzar]

I've about had enough of this.  The first rule of this forum is to be respectful to others.

 

I am going to close this topic while I review it and give members time to calm down.

[LadyLyzar]

This thread has now been verbally warned and temporarily closed once.  If members continue to insult one another, it will be permanently closed.

 

There is no reason to insinuate anything about another member because of different methods of playing the game.  As long as they are not cheating or breaking any other rules, they may play DC any way they wish and do not deserve to be insulted for having a different playstyle than you.  I do not want to see that again, period.

 

A new precedent has been set with the re-release of CB Halloweens.  Overall, I have seen quite a bit of generosity come out of this event and that's without limits in play.

 

I also agree with Marrionetta that things will balance themselves out.  If there is a Holiday re-release, I propose a long one like this one because of the sheer volume of breeds that may need to be obtained, especially for users who may not yet have any.  In addition, it is impossible to cater a game to everyone's technical specs - but with the length of the release, biomes slowed down quite a bit once the faster clickers hit their scroll limit.  Give it time.

 

 

[KrazyKarp]

Thank you for dealing with the thread, LadyLyzar.

 

Now that I've thought about it more, I'm gonna go ahead and agree with no limits. It feels to me like everyone is hanging this suggestion on just CB Hollies (if we get rereleases again). Hanging the fate of an idea off of one breed doesn't seem logical to me. Sure, the first year or maybe two, it could be hard to grab CB Hollies. But eventually demand would die down and those one or two years of Holly Frenzy won't matter in the big picture.

 

Plus, I've seen plenty of gifting and generosity during this Halloween event. And there aren't limits. Sure, you could say that the limits on Christmas and Valentine breeds allows that "giving" feeling for making it easier to grab them. But the real feeling of generosity comes from actually gifting something, from person to person, not biome to person. Arguably, Halloween is more like Christmas than Christmas is on DC.

[11th]

3 hours ago, StarSea said:

Just going to put my thought out there, and I'm sure it's probably an extremely rare take on the limits, but...

To me the "Christmas and Valentines are about giving" in relation to the CB limit means encouraging giving offspring. If you only have 2 CBs, and you don't want to inbreed, you're going to have to get help from others with it. While yeah, they might rather trade, there are a lot of nice people who are more than happy to gift their offspring instead. It also encourages connecting to others from the userbase and while I enjoy that DC is rather secluded for the most part, the little dependency and connection that this gives (and can even require) is nice.

The limit doesn't have to mean giving CBs, it can mean giving offspring and helping with lineages by breeding instead. Other than the Christmas, Valentines, and GoN limits, I don't believe there's any other aspect of the site that encourages you to rely on others and be generous with your offspring to directly help others due to limits like this does.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier in the thread. (I'm just really bad a figuring out how to say things, sorry. ;n; )

 

As much as it can frustrate me at times, I love actually being able to work with people to finish holiday lines, and looking at those lines and seeing all of the different scrolls that helped build it. The rest of the year I tend to stay in my little bubble, collecting and breeding for myself, but during the Winter Holiday and Valentine's rushes I get eggs from tons of people I would normally never talk to, and breed-gift and throw AP finds at people because I know that it will make their week a little easier or help them finish that one special holiday line that they've been working on for years. (I've also been on the receiving end of those kinds of gifts, having worked on some higher Gen lines.)

 

Halloween has never really felt that way to me, even this year. I've seldom felt bad about keeping 2nd Gens out of the breeding pool because of how many eggs are flying around, but I wouldn't dream of doing it for the other holidays. A lot more breed-gifting seems to be happening, but it seems to be because people threw their breeding plans out the window to grab CBs instead.

 

I just worry that people will think "If everyone can get as many CBs as they want, and can breed as much as they want, then what's the point in sharing anything?"

[Guillotine]

What if I don't want to be shackled to someone else's whims? Aegis are already really awful for not being able to ensure that I can keep a true EG if the CBs go off my scroll, and Snow Angels are also really bad for different reasons. I LIKE not having to rely on people for things, because what if the things I need for lines are frequently in very short supply, or just plain aren't in the interests of most of the playerbase? That's happened before.

[HeatherMarie]

Thank you LadyLyzar.

 

We all have different experiences. While some of you may be able to get CB Holidays very easily, and have friends who can get them very easily, and think that gifting will be better encouraged by having no limits, not everyone has that same experience. I had a *heck* of a time getting my two CB Pumpkins in the biomes, and while admittedly that was earlier on in the re-release, I have indeed hunted the biomes since then and it's still fairly difficult for me to successfully catch what I'm looking for. It's awesome that some of you can catch things easily and get your fill easily. It's not like that for everyone.

 

I still think *raising* the limit instead of completely doing away with it would be better. Even if it were raised to, say, 8 CBs, the most anyone can get at one time due to egg-limits, that would be better. And despite what others may think this is not just because of Hollies, because Pumpkins are no where near the rarity of Hollies and they have still been mega-difficult to get this re-release (look in the News thread to see how many people are having problems with those). I completely get that if re-releases are unlimited, sooner or later it won't really matter because sooner or later everyone will collect what they need. I get that. I just don't *want* users to have to wait 2 or 3 years before being able to catch the harder-to-get ones. And that will end up happening, at least for some users, because the faster clickers with better connections (and maybe better trading abilities) will get them all. That's not a what-if, it happens all the time. If there is *some* sort of limit, it will be easier to spread out the wealth while still letting people at the current limit get more. I don't see how that could possibly be an unfair compromise.

[Dragon_Arbock]

*Just got back and skims thread*

1 hour ago, Guillotine said:

What if I don't want to be shackled to someone else's whims? Aegis are already really awful for not being able to ensure that I can keep a true EG if the CBs go off my scroll, and Snow Angels are also really bad for different reasons. I LIKE not having to rely on people for things, because what if the things I need for lines are frequently in very short supply, or just plain aren't in the interests of most of the playerbase? That's happened before.

This is another good point. We have a holiday dragon with two forms and you can't guarantee someone will keep them in that form. Same thing with someone killing one of their dragons.

 

Also, let me say this. In the last year, I have gotten my internet upgraded. It's faster now than it was, but DC still loads horribly slow. Fast internet does not make DC run better.

But I fully agree with Marrionetta.