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ANSWERED:Change how breeding works

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I'm throwing in support for this. While I don't breed often (haven't had time to actually set up and implement the breedings I have floating around in my head), when I do breed, I've noticed this trend. I've been breeding my g2 shimmer consistently for over a year, and only finally two days ago got another shimmer. It took over a year to get something besides a hellfire. Or a no egg produced.

And I know shimmers are crappy examples, but I've even tried with caveblockers. I had an idea a while back for a hellfire x lumina line. I gave up within a month or two when all that produced was luminas. (and mind you, back then, I still had ~40 some hellfires. I now have over a 100 dry.gif)

 

So. Something that balances out the ungodly amount of breeding success caveblockers have? Yes. Yes please.

Edited by Wandering4Ever

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Skipped all the discussion about the details and numbers how this could work, but I definitely do support changing something in the way breeding works.

 

Here zaverxi reports that it's impossible to breed a horse from nhiostrife. A horse! Quite a while ago someone asked me to try to breed them a balloon from bleeding moon, which is close to impossible as well. For some pairings, the way breeding works now is really yielding ridiculous results.

 

If people stop breeding newly released commons because it's frustrating, the problem gets even worse.

 

So yes, anything that makes it easier to breed certain commons together and get both breeds out of the pairing has my full support.

Yeah - balloons x pillows = 98% pillows so far. And I was having trouble with white X waterhorse a year or so ago, but gave up in favour of something else. Surely this can be changed for COMMONS - as in the ones we see all the time in the biomes.

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I would also really like age of breed, or "ratios" maybe, to have less of an impact on breed outcome ... whatever the formula for all this may be.

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More thoughts on this? The ability of some commons to completely dominate OTHER COMMONS in breeding is really messed up, to say nothing of trying to get shinies from common things...

 

Commons breeding crazily = no one wants to work with those common breeds = commons stay "underpopulated" and unwanted and the cycle continues.

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I think what's needed is something drastical: Make breeding completely independent of the in-cave ratio.

 

Exchange that system for something else. Like breeding ratios. Right now, we have commons. Lots of them. A couple of (breedable) uncommons. Very few true rares. (And maybe things in between, I wouldn't know.)

 

Let's introduce the following breeding ratios (provided that the breeding results in an egg):

common x common: 50% of either breed.

common x uncommon: 20% uncommon, 80% common (maybe?)

common x rare: 6% rare, 94% common (maybe?)

 

uncommon x uncommon: 50% of either breed.

uncommon x rare: 20% rare, 80% uncommon.

 

rare x rare: 50% of either breed.

(Yes, I know I "forgot" hybrids. I don't know anything about their placement in the ratio pyramid. Are they common or uncommon? Definitely not rare, I daresay.)

 

This will result in simple checkers of the same rarity group being pretty easy to breed. Not too easy, obviously. We still have refusals (*sigh*), no interest, no egg produced or simply a stroke of bad luck where we get the wrong egg time and again. But the current situation is... not nice. It still gives a good enough chance for common x uncommon or uncommon x rare pairings. However, common x rare are going to be a hassle...

 

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I think what's needed is something drastical: Make breeding completely independent of the in-cave ratio.

 

Exchange that system for something else. Like breeding ratios. Right now, we have commons. Lots of them. A couple of (breedable) uncommons. Very few true rares. (And maybe things in between, I wouldn't know.)

 

Let's introduce the following breeding ratios (provided that the breeding results in an egg):

common x common: 50% of either breed.

common x uncommon: 20% uncommon, 80% common (maybe?)

common x rare: 6% rare, 94% common (maybe?)

 

uncommon x uncommon: 50% of either breed.

uncommon x rare: 20% rare, 80% uncommon.

 

rare x rare: 50% of either breed.

(Yes, I know I "forgot" hybrids. I don't know anything about their placement in the ratio pyramid. Are they common or uncommon? Definitely not rare, I daresay.)

 

This will result in simple checkers of the same rarity group being pretty easy to breed. Not too easy, obviously. We still have refusals (*sigh*), no interest, no egg produced or simply a stroke of bad luck where we get the wrong egg time and again. But the current situation is... not nice. It still gives a good enough chance for common x uncommon or uncommon x rare pairings. However, common x rare are going to be a hassle...

I honestly don't think we need anything nearly so radical. Just give the users a bit more control over which breed is "rolled" first should do it. Once people see that they CAN breed common x common successfully, they WILL. And that will even out the ratios faster than anything else will.

 

And that Albino finally produced an Albino! I'm so happy. It took 30+ tries, but it finally worked....

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited by cyradis4

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Just saw a Bronze Tinsel x Seragamma pair with a 60 Seragamma : 1 Tinsel ratio. The way breeding currently works is crippling some pairs and making them just not viable to work with. I know I've wanted to request Prize x Royal Crimson lines several times, but have passed because I didn't want to subject the prize owners to months of relentless fail-filled agony. >___<

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Not from me, but something like this is sorely needed.

 

6 months, with unlucky refusals / un-wanted alts for an uncommon x not-very-common. But 2.5 years to do a blocker x very common that had no refusals..... Just 30+ eggs of the wrong breed. I took both to 5th gen.

 

That just.... That just bites.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited by cyradis4

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Just saw a Bronze Tinsel x Seragamma pair with a 60 Seragamma : 1 Tinsel ratio. The way breeding currently works is crippling some pairs and making them just not viable to work with. I know I've wanted to request Prize x Royal Crimson lines several times, but have passed because I didn't want to subject the prize owners to months of relentless fail-filled agony. >___<

Yes. Someone else asked me that particular pair before and all I got was Crimsons after months of trying. I don't want even guess the ratio.

 

Anyway, I'm just passing by to show support to this ^^

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I would love something to be changed, yes. I was working on a particular lineage.... man, it must have been about a year ago! Where I was trying to breed a checker with Bleeding Moons and Albinos. I figured, Albinos aren't *that* uncommon, this should be easy, right?

 

Wrong. I tried for literally months to get the two pairs I had to produce Albinos, but nope--nothing but Bleeding Moons. I no longer have proof of this because I dumped most of my dragons a few months ago, but it was very frustrating at the time, and as a consequence I don't even *like* Bleeding Moons anymore. Which isn't helping the breed ratios even a little, I know, but I can barely stand the sight of them I swear.

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I would love something to be changed, yes. I was working on a particular lineage.... man, it must have been about a year ago! Where I was trying to breed a checker with Bleeding Moons and Albinos. I figured, Albinos aren't *that* uncommon, this should be easy, right?

 

Wrong. I tried for literally months to get the two pairs I had to produce Albinos, but nope--nothing but Bleeding Moons. I no longer have proof of this because I dumped most of my dragons a few months ago, but it was very frustrating at the time, and as a consequence I don't even *like* Bleeding Moons anymore. Which isn't helping the breed ratios even a little, I know, but I can barely stand the sight of them I swear.

Albino ratios took a massive hit about a year and a half ago. They used to breed 1:1 (ish) with Olives, then.... Someone started collecting them something major, and they were driven into less-common status. Which when breeding with blockers... Gives all blockers.

 

Blame Tsuko, the Great Albino Vanishing corresponds to her starting to collect them. Last time she and I talked, she was rather proud of that! xd.png

 

Which is Proof #1 that major collecting and massing breeding projects and mass breeding, over time, DO affect the ratios. Mind, Albinos still breed like commons with anything except blockers. But I watched that change happen, when I was breeding more or less every other week-ish.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Aha! That makes so much sense, and also why I've seen very few Albinos lately, looking through the cave, and I remember them being cave-blocker common.

 

I guess the solution is to start collecting other stuff, as you've been saying tongue.gif

Edited by silver_chan

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Well, all I can say is that this is getting absolutely ridiculous. I see far more Magi eggs in the biomes than Frostbite, but can't breed one from this pair to save my life (or at least my sanity!)

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http://dragcave.net/progeny/CK1GQ

started another pair

http://dragcave.net/progeny/TcFr1

 

http://dragcave.net/progeny/XHTCF,

I don' EVEN want to think about how long it took to get to this point

 

and then there is this pairing

http://dragcave.net/progeny/ZSb73

equally long progeny list from 4 other pairs as well

 

rather frustrating ( sic)

"ratios" is a 4 letter word to common breeders

 

my alternating undines have moved along faster and alts are hard to come by

 

not sure what needs to be done, but set it and forget it ratios isn't the answer

 

http://dragcave.net/progeny/hkaSQ

http://dragcave.net/progeny/Rz8AZ

 

 

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Bringing this up AGAIN because I still feel it's a huge, gamebreaking problem that needs to be addressed.

 

Do people think royal crimsons are rare? No? Yah, I don't either--they're dirt common.

 

For the past three months, give or take a week or two for Halloween, I've been breeding about 8 Spirit Ward x Royal Crimson pairs a week trying to start a checker.

 

I've gotten. ONE. Royal Crimson from them. One!

 

My attempts to get an Ember from Spirit Wards has gone even worse. I realize Embers are a bit less common, but they're still way more common than, say, Coppers and Silvers. Yet I've bred several of both far easier and far more quickly in the same span of time. That's messed up!

 

Can something PLEASE be done to make common x common breeding feel less like I'm entering a one in a million lottery drawing? :C

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Migrating from the other thread:

 

I'm no economist, but isn't it pretty much *exactly* backwards for the system to be responding to a commodity nobody wants more of by dumping more and more of it onto the market, in inverse proportion to how much of it people are trying to acquire? Because that's what the ratios are doing. If fewer people are breeding spirit wards, then spirit wards SHOULD become rarer, which will drive up demand for them, and make more of them be produced to meet this need, which will make them less rare again, and so will go the cycle. If fewer people are picking up horses, then FEWER horses should be produced, not more, till people start competing for them again.

 

There is nothing wrong with these dragon breeds or these sprites. Neither horses not spirit wards need a facelift. They are both dimorphic. They have great sprites. They each have something cool and unique about them. But the ratios are wreaking havoc with them and preventing them from being as fun to play with as they could be.

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I don't think the drops should be determined by demand - that would make rares super-common, because everyone wants them. This would defeat the whole point of rarity.

 

I do agree to the suggestion of this thread. If breeding common x common lineages wouldn't be so ridiculously frustrating, more people would breed them and pick up more of them from the cave to start lineages with. If a new common is released, I just pick up the caveborns I need for my scroll goals and that's it. I don't breed them, because I find pb lineages boring, and there's often not much else that you can do with them. Something needs to be done that makes common x common checkers easier.

 

I don't care if this is achieved by changing how breeding works, or by introducing a BSA that lets us influence the outcome of a breeding. Maybe the BSA would even be the better solution, since every time someone forgets to use it, a super-common is bred, abandoned and hopefully raised somewhere to count against the ratios.

 

But, PLEASE, change something that allows us to breed lovely common lineages without so much frustration.

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I don't think the drops should be determined by demand - that would make rares super-common, because everyone wants them. This would defeat the whole point of rarity.

 

I do agree to the suggestion of this thread. If breeding common x common lineages wouldn't be so ridiculously frustrating, more people would breed them and pick up more of them from the cave to start lineages with. If a new common is released, I just pick up the caveborns I need for my scroll goals and that's it. I don't breed them, because I find pb lineages boring, and there's often not much else that you can do with them. Something needs to be done that makes common x common checkers easier.

 

I don't care if this is achieved by changing how breeding works, or by introducing a BSA that lets us influence the outcome of a breeding. Maybe the BSA would even be the better solution, since every time someone forgets to use it, a super-common is bred, abandoned and hopefully raised somewhere to count against the ratios.

 

But, PLEASE, change something that allows us to breed lovely common lineages without so much frustration.

Oh yes, I meant within the same rarity group. There obviously is already some mechanism for keeping rare dragons rare that exists in addition to the ratio system anyway (otherwise golds would be more common than blacks, since there are more blacks out there than golds.) Whatever that is, I would expect it to stay in place regardless of any updates to the ratio system. :-)

 

My wish is not for golds to become less rare; it's for recently released common breeds to become more rare compared to older and more used common breeds-- at least to the point where it's realistically possible to breed anything else from the newer ones, and so that they aren't blocking any other breed from appearing in the biomes, and so that they aren't sitting in the AP for ages (which makes people even less likely to pick them up from the biomes-- why would they, when they can get the same egg from the AP at a lower hatch time?)

 

Producing more and more of a common breed the less and less anyone is taking them is a really bad idea IMHO. If people are picking up and breeding fewer of them, their population ought to decline, which in all likelihood should make them more sought after again, both because they will be more desirable breeding stock and because they won't be as trivial and unchallenging to find. If that means the rarity and thus the value of a common dragon fluctuates around from week to week-- well, great. The trading game has gotten rather stale anyway. New breeds cycling back and forth between super-common and uncommon would suit me just fine. Especially if that means you could actually use them in more lineages some of the time.

Edited by tjekan

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Agreed with Tjekan. A few breeds I can think of that have gone through some real ups and downs with rarity are blacks, seasonals, vines, stripes, and pinks. If more commons could cycle through between super common and uncommon based on demand, it would certainly make the cave much more interesting.

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I also remember a time where geodes weren't easy to get and where splits were really uncommon. And nebulas after the release of the alts...

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I suspect the supply equals demand system outlined by tjekan would result in each common breed settling down into a specific rarity and pretty much staying there unless there was something to upset it; like a sprite update, a new BSA, a new hybrid, or maybe even a really big lineage project. I do think it would work better than the current system where the less a common breed is wanted the more it is shoved down the users' throats.

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Hello, it's me again, back to beat a dead horse!

 

I was just talking with someone about Spirit Ward breeding, and it led me to actually count the numbers from my attempted Spirit Ward x Ember / Royal Crimson project. The following numbers are the amounts of each breed I've gotten, obviously counted only from the progeny lists of my Spirit Ward x Ember and Spirit Ward x Royal Crimson pairs.

 

Spirit Wards: 114

Royal Crimsons: 1

Embers: 0

 

Anyone else see a BIG problem here?

 

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No question that's screwed up. Maybe we should spam the AP with bred spirit wards, since the cave obviously doesn't think there's enough of them.

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Hello, it's me again, back to beat a dead horse!

 

I was just talking with someone about Spirit Ward breeding, and it led me to actually count the numbers from my attempted Spirit Ward x Ember / Royal Crimson project. The following numbers are the amounts of each breed I've gotten, obviously counted only from the progeny lists of my Spirit Ward x Ember and Spirit Ward x Royal Crimson pairs.

 

Spirit Wards: 114

Royal Crimsons: 1

Embers: 0

 

Anyone else see a BIG problem here?

Nah, not a problem. We only have to wait for a year (or so) before starting any lineage projects with new breeds, that's all. /sarcasm

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