ANSWERED:Change how breeding works

[Zeditha]

While this would be nice, I'd prefer a different solution to the same problem. *hunts around for egg-punting thread*

 

I'd just rather not change the way that breeding works, for two main reasons:

- it's been in place for many years and completely overhauling the mechanic (a slight change probably wouldn't be possible) might have unforeseen consequences, leading to just more outrage at the changing of well-loved mechanics.

- thinking of, writing, coding and testing an entirely new breeding mechanic would be a lot of work for TJ. (I'm starting computing, so I have a vague idea of how much hassle it would be.)

 

 

I'm not 100% sure that the egg-punting idea would be less work, or even that it would be better accepted, but I do think that changing breeding is unnecessary if we fix the ratios themselves.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Zeditha

[cyradis4]

As someone who's done a bit of programming, I suspect that this change to the breeding would actually probably be easier than the punt idea. The Punting idea would do a lot more to fix the long-term issue in the Cave, but we'll still get breeds that dominate. Either way, TJ has in the past stated that we should not use programming difficulty to evaluate an idea.... since he's the only one who knows DC's programming and so how hard any given one would be.

 

Other ideas to help with this issue are:

 

Multi-clutching: its much easier to get what you need from several breedings with Celestial... though it takes longer due to the 1 month cooldown.

This is the BSA thread for multi-clutching:

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=165731

 

Using a BSA to shift the odds:

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=165303

 

Having said that, there is an issue. People getting 60 Black Teas before even 1 Pebble is.... Ouch! And my 30+ Olives before I got ONE Albino was also very painful. There have been others too, that are brutal like that. Something to either shift the odds or give more chances in common x blocker pairings is really needed.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

7 months of trying and still no luck from either of these Ember x Spirit Ward pairs. Are Embers supposed to be super rare?? No?? I didn't think so!

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/hLwDZ

https://dragcave.net/progeny/gx3hB

 

Breeding is borkeddd >:C

[olympe]

I'd just rather not change the way that breeding works, for two main reasons:

- it's been in place for many years and completely overhauling the mechanic (a slight change probably wouldn't be possible) might have unforeseen consequences, leading to just more outrage at the changing of well-loved mechanics.

- thinking of, writing, coding and testing an entirely new breeding mechanic would be a lot of work for TJ. (I'm starting computing, so I have a vague idea of how much hassle it would be.)

Define 'well-loved mechanics'.

 

Also re ratios: Most of us know that certain common x common pairings will only ever produce one breed - or at least 90% of the time. Carmines are infamous for that. So, who in their right mind (and knowing that ahead of time) will actually touch any kind of non-PB Carmine lineage? I mean, seriously?

 

Exactly. Probably not very many players who would otherwise be interested. And that means that people breed less Carmines, which means that they become even more underpopulated, which the Game tries to fix by giving us more of them - both in the Cave and in breeding. Which means that the respective Carmine x any_other_common pairings will give even more Carmine eggs than before.

 

So, changing how breeding works might actually affect the ratios in a positive way - eventually.

[Obscure_Trash]

7 months of trying and still no luck from either of these Ember x Spirit Ward pairs. Are Embers supposed to be super rare?? No?? I didn't think so!

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/hLwDZ

https://dragcave.net/progeny/gx3hB

 

Breeding is borkeddd >:C

^^^ I'm a big lineage collector. I finally got into breeding my own lines.... for about two weeks. Once I realized how much of a pain it really was to do any of the checkers I was interested in, I gave right back up.

 

Breeding is a huge mechanic in the game. It's one I love. It's why I typically do 90+% of my hunting in the AP - so I can browse all these beautiful lines other people are making.

 

But it should not take years to complete a short common x common checker. I should not be able to make more progress with a gold or silver or holiday checker than with a common x common checker within the same time period.

 

I want to be able to breed, but until breeding is fixed, I won't because there's no enjoyment in it for me.

[Dianacat777]

The effects the ratios have have gotten more pronounced over the years... or ridiculous. I can understand having trouble getting rares from rare x common pairs, but when you have common x common pairs that stubbornly produce only one breed... it shouldn't be this stacked.

 

It takes the fun out of breeding, most of the time, and that's saying nothing of what it does to lineage building.

[purplehaze]

I am currently trying to do a short checker of Blacktip x Monarch. I have yet to get a single Blacktip from any of the pairs I have been breeding and several other people have been trying to get me one from their pairs, too, with similarly discouraging results. These Monarchs are beautiful dragons and I would love to use them in other lineages, too, but I can't deal with that much frustration. These are both common dragons and there should be nothing so hard about using them in a checker. I have better luck getting rares from rare x common pairs than getting some commons from common x common pairs.

 

That is just not right! There is obviously something wrong here when so many people are finding breeding to be no fun any more.

[Denwayasha]

An update: In my first post in this thread I posted three progenies, two of which I finally got the correct breed from, and I just checked the third. The oldest offspring was laid Jan 04, 2015. That's two years of weekly breeding (even holiday weeks!) with only two Light Luminas to show for it. (I realize that this particular pairing has the added complication of Dark Luminas in the mix, so since we haven't figured out the exact breeding method for those that could be a larger effect than just bad luck with ratios. But even pre-DLs something was very off.) At least when trying for 2nd gens you can try multiple pairs of CBs, but that's not always feasible for higher gens. :/

 

Whether it's a site change, a BSA, or heck even a fertility potion or spell from "Trader's Canyon".. something to fix common x common breeding please.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Just to kick the dead horse again, I have two Ember x Spirit Ward pairs that I've tried almost continually for the past ten months without yielding a single Ember.

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/gx3hB

https://dragcave.net/progeny/hLwDZ

 

Are Embers supposed to be super rare? No? Then WHY ARE THEY TAKING SO LONG? :/

 

I have a Silver Shimmer x Frostbite pairing that's given more Shimmers then these have Embers, for goodness' sake.

 

I have a Gold x Terrae that's given a GOLD in 8 months, which was already super long, but still faster then them!

 

It's messed up and counter productive in encouraging people to breed and collect commons. And, as above poster said, once you're trying for higher gens then 2g it's not really feasible to collect a ton of the pairing to have multiple attempts. I'm better than most in having two shots and still no luck...

[cyradis4]

I'm on a brief sabbatical from breeding common x common, to deal with Holidays and new releases.

 

But yea, something needs to be done, this is beyond ridiculous that its easier and FASTER to breed rare x uncommon than it is to breed common x common.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[RainbowTheAlbinoServal]

So what about gold x silver then? What is the chance of getting either breed?

[Herk]

So what about gold x silver then? What is the chance of getting either breed?

About 2:1 judging by their progeny. They just very rarely produce.

 

The real upside to this would be common x common, because with those the ratios are often far, far worse

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Erghhhhhhhh! I've been trying to work on a few drake and pygmy and split checkers for just about the first time in forever recently and, surprise surprise, despite nothing among them really qualifying as rare or even uncommon, the breedings are nearly completely dominated by whichever happens to be the newer breed.

 

There are so many forum based attempts to give commons more love, but half the problem probably isn't people don't want to use them so much as they're often harder to work with than rares. I WANT to make checkers with commons, but if they're going to be horrifically stubborn and take months to produce the older common breed, then forget it, I'll go back to being happy in uncommon land instead.

Edited June 14, 2017 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

Erghhhhhhhh! I've been trying to work on a few drake and pygmy and split checkers for just about the first time in forever recently and, surprise surprise, despite nothing among them really qualifying as rare or even uncommon, the breedings are nearly completely dominated by whichever happens to be the newer breed.

 

There are so many forum based attempts to give commons more love, but half the problem probably isn't people don't want to use them so much as they're often harder to work with than rares. I WANT to make checkers with commons, but if they're going to be horrifically stubborn and take months to produce the older common breed, then forget it, I'll go back to being happy in uncommon land instead.

This is my problem. I love workign with commons, but I've got some lines that get stuck for literally years because one breed just so dominates another. >.<

 

Cheers!

C4.

[olympe]

Let's be frank: The ratio system - which also affects the breeding system quite badly - is broken, and has been broken for years. And it's probably going to stay broken for the foreseeable future.

 

Worse, because people cannot work with commons (unless they do purebreds / same-release only checkers), uncommons are in higher demand (because they can be worked with), putting the ratios further out of whack.

 

All hail the holy ratios! /sarcasm

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Bringing this up again.

 

In an unfortunate bit of timing, I caught a few Sunsong x Sunset dragons right before Setsongs were added to the game, and I've been trying for 5 months since to breed a Sunsong from one pairing. Sunsongs are not difficult to breed. Most other breed combos give them no problem. But the ability of whatever is the newer or slightly more common of a pair to completely dominate breeding results makes what should be a very simple process prolonged and tedious. This is true of almost all common x slightly newer common pairings and I still firmly believe it's a huge part of what makes commons so undesirable. There are many commons I would LOVE to work with... if only the ratios would allow it.

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/O8KjK

 

As another example of how this would be useful, it's extremely evident to anyone involved in prize collecting that prize x common lines are a horror and a half to work on. I've been breeding a Tinsel x Cassare line since April and have only one Prize to show for it. A change to breeding to allow both breeds a shot at "rolling" for an egg first wouldn't mean that Prizes suddenly become more common, but rather that they appear at a fairly steady rate regardless of how rare or common the breeding partner is. IE your odds of getting a Prize from a Copper or a Cassare should be about the same. Obviously those odds will still be LOW, but that's a lot better than the current feeling that breeding to common breeds is like attempting to win the lottery.

 

https://dragcave.net/progeny/0wX2E

 

I think that, ironically, if this change was introduced people would be more willing to work with commons in projects and thus the ratios would stabilize much better than they have on the current forced attempts to stabilize via breeding, which often chase people away from the most common or newly released breeds entirely.

Edited January 6, 2018 by angelicdragonpuppy

[HeatherMarie]

I definitely agree that common x newer-common breeding is fairly out of whack and waaaayyyy too biased towards the newer common. I get that the newer breeds need to 'catch up' ratio-wise or whatever, but it shouldn't be totally impossible to get a *common* for a common/common breeding just because one is slightly newer.

 

The Prize thing I sort of understand, though... I mean, Prizes aren't meant to be common, so if you breed them with commons it's understandable that you'll get the common most of the time. Whatever the ratio is of 'no egg' to 'egg' results, most of those 'egg' results will be common since they are going to be more abundant then the Prizes. Prize/Copper should be a bit more even in results since they are more level rarity-wise. 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Marie19R sorry if I’m misunderstanding, but I think you’re saying Prize x Common simply gives more commons in lieu of no eggs / no interests? If so, I’ve seen far more Prize eggs in total from Prize x Rare than Prize x Common across the same amount of time, suggesting the comments aren’t just taking over those no egg scenarios, but cannibalizing Prizes.

[HeatherMarie]

No, what I mean is that, however many 'egg' results are supposed to happen, most of those will be commons in a Prize/common pairing. With Prize/Rare, there will be comparatively more Prizes since Prizes are somewhat more common then true rares. So, for example, if 20 breedings is supposed to yield 15 eggs, with Prize/common probably 13 of those will be common. With Prize/Rare 13 of those will probably be Prizes, since they are more likely to spawn then the rare. Of course these numbers are purely hypothetical and it's totally possible I'm completely misunderstanding how breeding works, but from what I've experienced that seems to be how it works.

[Paradisiske]

honestly i think that the no egg result from breeding should just be gone. it would definitely help ratios imo

[angelicdragonpuppy]

3 minutes ago, CellyBean said:

honestly i think that the no egg result from breeding should just be gone. it would definitely help ratios imo

 

But then rare x rare = endless chain of profit.

[Paradisiske]

2 minutes ago, angelicdragonpuppy said:

 

But then rare x rare = endless chain of profit.

hmmm true

 

its just frustrating when i've been breeding a prize x common since almost this time last year and i got 7 eggs despite every week of breeding and using fertility. and the most common outcome was no egg.

 

why not just do away with ratios honestly.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

4 minutes ago, CellyBean said:

hmmm true

 

its just frustrating when i've been breeding a prize x common since almost this time last year and i got 7 eggs despite every week of breeding and using fertility. and the most common outcome was no egg.

 

why not just do away with ratios honestly.

 

Oof, my condolences! If you don’t do life mates, can you try another common of the same breed? TJ mentioned that breeding a dragon over and over can sometimes reduce their luck until they get a break, so sometimes fresh mates seem to help. (Unless it’s the ratios that cause that effect, then I suppose the same breed wouldn’t help. Argh, mysteries! X___x)

 

Honestly I kind of like having ratios—it makes the game feel alive, like when seasonals and blacks went through rare spurts. As of the ecosystem is actually in flux. Definitely annoying at times, but rewarding at others, like when rates briefly become more common. I just don’t like how the ratios can sometimes so COMPLETELY dominate breeding. T___T

[HeatherMarie]

There have been tons and tons of different suggestions regarding ratios throughout the years, including doing away with them altogether, although I very much doubt that would ever happen. I am with the group of people who believe the ratios are 'broken' in some way or another and really could use a fix or tweak, and this is definitely more obvious in the common/newer-common pairings. Perhaps if breedings didn't rely so *heavily* on ratios and on making the newer commons 'catch up' it would be a lot better.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I've noticed this the most with pairs that produce hybrids. I've been trying to work on a weird project, but for the life of me cannot get a Purple egg from a M Purple x F Spitfire pairing- mostly get Ultraviolets with the occasional Spitfire. Having 3 possible outcomes really makes it insane.

Not sure what exactly can be done about that.. but yeah.