Trader's Canyon

Cinnamin Draconna · July 28, 2016

I said I would wait until Thuban posted.. she has, so I'm replying..

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What can be purchased with Shards? Agreed

- Any dragon that is obtainable in cave, Prize dragons and Past Holiday dragons during their specific windows.

- Items that mimic BSAs (both existing, and suggested)

How are shards earned? I still don't see the need for a cap or a time limit

-By collecting, breeding and raising dragons. Obtaining an egg, hatching an egg into hatchy stage, and raising a dragon to adulthood earns one point each step of the way. Using certain BSAs earn a point (Incubate, Influence, Fertility). There is a 100 point cap in place, per 8 day cycle (though 16 days could work).

-Some breeds can earn extra points if the store has decided they they are a overstocked. These dragons would earn an extra .2 shards once they have grown to adult stage, or have been frozen. NO limit on the bonus points.

How are they used? Agreed

-Shards can be traded in to an NPC trader for "Cave" biome eggs, and items

How are prices set: Since we aren't discussing specific prices - Agreed - but I think the prices will need LOTS of discussion before approval

-We decided to use Golds as the most expensive dragon, and broke the other breeds down as being worth a percentage of golds.

What limitations exist?

-Some actions have a limit to how many times they can be applied towards the "weekly" goal. I'd like to discuss this further because I don't agree with limits like this

-There is absolutely no user to user interaction for any part of this. Nothing obtained from the store is tradable, the currency is untradable.

-The store will not open to users until they have obtained Bronze badge, however, they will earn points from day one.

-CB BRED Alts and Hybrids are not part of this.

Things that could be expanded: no comment at this time

-We have lore for various sections of the store in the event it is needed.

-Mini games are something that some users have expressed an interest in as a way to earn points.

-Also various sales and contests that revolve around playing the game (raising x number of things to earn points). Raffles of sorts could also happen, but arent a driving factor.

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The main reason I disagree with the suggested prices and the limits are because I think there has been too much emphasis on possible abuse. I think we should try to come up with the best, most reasonable store that will cater to the majority of players, and let TJ deal with anyone who tries to abuse the system. Stopping abuse is NOT our job and I don't think we should even be considering it for the discussion.

Fiona · July 28, 2016

ADP: the period of collecting has been debated before. I think we were leaning in the direction of 8 days because of Valkemare's moon, Cirion. It's more in keeping with established lore. Plus 8 days is a nice, even number. 7 doesn't divide evenly into anything.

Of course, since the players actually playing the game have to live in our imperfect world we can also argue that 7 makes more sense to real world players. I'd have to do a lot of hunting back to see details about why we discussed using Cirion's period instead of an Earth week. Probably though it was something to do with the number of points dividing evenly into weeks and days.

ETA: and while we're discussing the summation, I wasn't sure I'd have counted "- Items that mimic BSAs (both existing, and suggested)" as a core mechanic. I know we've discussed this a lot and most are in favor of adding them. However, if we are talking about what is essential to getting a store up and running, items could wait. Shards, how they're earned and how they're spent, along with what restrictions need to be in place from the outset - those are core. I'd put items in Expansion. Just my opinion...

Edited July 28, 2016 by Fiona BlueFire

_Sin_ · July 28, 2016

I said I would wait until Thuban posted.. she has, so I'm replying..

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What can be purchased with Shards? Agreed

- Any dragon that is obtainable in cave, Prize dragons and Past Holiday dragons during their specific windows.

- Items that mimic BSAs (both existing, and suggested)

How are shards earned? I still don't see the need for a cap or a time limit

-By collecting, breeding and raising dragons. Obtaining an egg, hatching an egg into hatchy stage, and raising a dragon to adulthood earns one point each step of the way. Using certain BSAs earn a point (Incubate, Influence, Fertility). There is a 100 point cap in place, per 8 day cycle (though 16 days could work).

-Some breeds can earn extra points if the store has decided they they are a overstocked. These dragons would earn an extra .2 shards once they have grown to adult stage, or have been frozen. NO limit on the bonus points.

How are they used? Agreed

-Shards can be traded in to an NPC trader for "Cave" biome eggs, and items

How are prices set: Since we aren't discussing specific prices - Agreed - but I think the prices will need LOTS of discussion before approval

-We decided to use Golds as the most expensive dragon, and broke the other breeds down as being worth a percentage of golds.

What limitations exist?

-Some actions have a limit to how many times they can be applied towards the "weekly" goal. I'd like to discuss this further because I don't agree with limits like this

-There is absolutely no user to user interaction for any part of this. Nothing obtained from the store is tradable, the currency is untradable.

-The store will not open to users until they have obtained Bronze badge, however, they will earn points from day one.

-CB BRED Alts and Hybrids are not part of this.

Things that could be expanded: no comment at this time

-We have lore for various sections of the store in the event it is needed.

-Mini games are something that some users have expressed an interest in as a way to earn points.

-Also various sales and contests that revolve around playing the game (raising x number of things to earn points). Raffles of sorts could also happen, but arent a driving factor.

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The main reason I disagree with the suggested prices and the limits are because I think there has been too much emphasis on possible abuse. I think we should try to come up with the best, most reasonable store that will cater to the majority of players, and let TJ deal with anyone who tries to abuse the system. Stopping abuse is NOT our job and I don't think we should even be considering it for the discussion.

I'm glad that TJ posted today because, for the first time in one year and half, we got summaries concise and clear enough to be understood. By the way, I really like yours. Thank you.

Now, any chance that the lengthy first post could be replaced with this?

Thuban · July 28, 2016

My only question is, why have an 8 day point limit? Many of the timed activities in the game focus around a weekly cycle. Why not keep it simple and make it a 7 day point limit? Much easier to remember that way, methinks.

Its based on the shorter moon cycle "resetting every time the moon Cirion goes full / new"

Sin: those points havent changed in a long time. The first page edits that needed to happen had to do with pricing, and that bred alts and hybrids were no longer playing a part in this. I had stated multiple times that the first post would be edited once everything was discussed that had needed to be. As those discussion really were just finalized in the last week or so, the post hasnt had a chance to be fully updated yet. My husband was in the hospital all last week, so I was a bit preoccupied.

The base framework hasnt changed much since the beginning. Its always been play the game, earn shards for playing the game however it is you play, get things in return for shards at its very core. The fluff is what makes it interesting.

Edits:

___________________________________________________________________

Summary has been tossed in the first post, but im not removing the fluff just yet. Its been there for a little while now.

Cinn: for the time being, the limits were suggested as a way to keep people from grinding for points. The numbers arent hardset, We used easy to follow, basic numbers (1 point for everything) to keep things simple so that pricing could be worked out in terms of time, rather than specific numbers of shards. The time frame is simply so that once the cap is met, you know when it will reset again. RE: The red bit in the limitations section:that is specifically a reference to the 8 day cycle / point cap. There is a breakdown chart in the first post that breaks down how it all applies, but I'd be happy to revisit it.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Thuban

_Sin_ · July 28, 2016

Its based on the shorter moon cycle "resetting every time the moon Cirion goes full / new"

Sin: those points havent changed in a long time. The first page edits that needed to happen had to do with pricing, and that bred alts and hybrids were no longer playing a part in this. I had stated multiple times that the first post would be edited once everything was discussed that had needed to be. As those discussion really were just finalized in the last week or so, the post hasnt had a chance to be fully updated yet. My husband was in the hospital all last week, so I was a bit preoccupied.

The base framework hasnt changed much since the beginning. Its always been play the game, earn shards for playing the game however it is you play, get things in return for shards at its very core. The fluff is what makes it interesting.

I'm very sorry about your husband. I spent a few hours on the hospital today with one of my best friends that is also a member of DC and is fighting cancer. Not the same situation but I think I can understand.

The issue with the first page is that it is absolutely too long. If you could summarize it, maybe people could understand it better. And... if I may... there's too much on limits. We spend too much time focusing on what others shouldn't get.

gigglymonkey12 · July 28, 2016

The fluff is what makes it interesting.

The fluff is interesting, but I remember when I read the thread for the first time..I was in over my head and the huge text block made my eyes glaze.

I think I would like the concise summary to be available on the first page too.

It's like reading the back of the book before diving into the story.

StormBirdRising · July 28, 2016

It seems that if everyone were on the same page about the Trader's Canyon then TJ would make this happen. Maybe everyone should just suck it up, compromise a little, present a united front, and submit it again to TJ.

Otherwise we will be listening to this debate for another 18 months.

With all due respect.

Thuban · July 28, 2016

I'm very sorry about your husband. I spent a few hours on the hospital today with one of my best friends that is also a member of DC and is fighting cancer. Not the same situation but I think I can understand.
The issue with the first page is that it is absolutely too long. If you could summarize it, maybe people could understand it better. And... if I may... there's too much on limits. We spend too much time focusing on what others shouldn't get.

it makes sense to have a limit to how much someone can possibly grind. People with thousands of dragons could easily breed every pairing they have, and as long as they made a point to not breed straight to the AP (have to manually abandon the eggs) they could feasibly earn a few thousand points just by breeding eggs. This creates a distinct disadvantage to players that lack the ability to pull numbers like that. The idea is to have a level playing field at the base level when it comes to earning points.

Each ER egg that is hatched, and then thrown back to the ap, earns a point because the egg is turning into a hatchy before leaving the scroll. Each egg bred and manually abandoned is a point (because you are obtaining an egg)

These are things that can be easily abused, and therefore should have limits.

The concise summary is at the top of the first post. I did specifically say that everything below it is fluff. Im not prepared to remove it from the post entirely yet, as some of the information in the summary still should have the extended explanations, and the edit hasnt been finished yet...The summary wasn't even finalized yet, as I did ask if i missed anything

(Fiona, I agree, the items can be moved, and I'll expand the one thing to specify that its breeding and raising dragons specifically that has a limit. Even the blocker thing could reasonably be moved, but I'd like to count it as a core...)

I am horrible at summaries. Here is the base framework though.

What can be purchased with Shards?

- Any dragon that is obtainable in cave, Prize dragons and Past Holiday dragons during their specific windows.

How are shards earned?

-By collecting, breeding and raising dragons. Obtaining an egg, hatching an egg into hatchy stage, and raising a dragon to adulthood earns one point each step of the way. Using certain BSAs earn a point (Incubate, Influence, Fertility). There is a 100 point cap in place, per 8 day cycle (using Cirion flipping between full and new moon).

-Some breeds can earn extra points if the store has decided they they are a overstocked. These dragons would earn an extra .2 shards once they have grown to adult stage, or have been frozen. NO limit on the bonus points.

How are they used?

-Shards can be traded in to an NPC trader for "Cave" biome eggs, and items

How are prices set:

-We decided to use Golds as the most expensive dragon, and broke the other breeds down as being worth a percentage of golds.

What limitations exist?

-Some actions have a limit to how many times they can be applied towards the "weekly" goal. (specifically how many points can be earned from breeding and raising dragons during the 8 day window)

-There is absolutely no user to user interaction for any part of this. Nothing obtained from the store is tradable, the currency is untradable.

-The store will not open to users until they have obtained Bronze badge, however, they will earn points from day one.

-CB BRED Alts and Hybrids are not part of this.

Things that could be expanded:

-We have lore for various sections of the store in the event it is needed.

-Mini games are something that some users have expressed an interest in as a way to earn points.

-Also various sales and contests that revolve around playing the game (raising x number of things to earn points). Raffles of sorts could also happen, but arent a driving factor.

- Items that mimic BSAs (both existing, and suggested)

Edited July 28, 2016 by Thuban

_Sin_ · July 28, 2016

it makes sense to have a limit to how much someone can possibly grind. People with thousands of dragons could easily breed every pairing they have, and as long as they made a point to not breed straight to the AP (have to manually abandon the eggs) they could feasibly earn a few thousand points just by breeding eggs. This creates a distinct disadvantage to players that lack the ability to pull numbers like that. The idea is to have a level playing field at the base level when it comes to earning points.

Each ER egg that is hatched, and then thrown back to the ap, earns a point because the egg is turning into a hatchy before leaving the scroll. Each egg bred and manually abandoned is a point (because you are obtaining an egg)

These are things that can be easily abused, and therefore should have limits.

The concise summary is at the top of the first post. I did specifically say that everything below it is fluff. Im not prepared to remove it from the post entirely yet, as some of the information in the summary still should have the extended explanations, and the edit hasnt been finished yet...The summary wasn't even finalized yet, as I did ask if i missed anything (Fiona, I agree, the items can be moved, and will be in the quote on first post at least)

Maybe. But aren't those details? As StormBirdRising said, couldn't we compromise? Possibly on 5 to 10 points, leaving the limits to TJ? Otherwise (and I must agree again with StormBirdRising) we will still be debating on 2020.

Thuban · July 28, 2016

As always, all final decision in how it works is up to TJ if he decides to use it. The details of those limits are what was agreed on months ago, when that was the specific topic being discussed. Grinding was a major concern throughout this thread, and was addressed in a way that was agreed on at the time of the last major discussion.

Specific prices, Specific mechanics...those will always be up to him. What aspects get used, and what dont, are up to him. While I'd like to eventually see the full scale ideas we have been bouncing around in action, I also understand that at least for awhile, there would have to be limits and such, until we know how the system handles everything in the core mechanics...

Fuzzbucket · July 28, 2016

it makes sense to have a limit to how much someone can possibly grind. People with thousands of dragons could easily breed every pairing they have, and as long as they made a point to not breed straight to the AP (have to manually abandon the eggs) they could feasibly earn a few thousand points just by breeding eggs. This creates a distinct disadvantage to players that lack the ability to pull numbers like that. The idea is to have a level playing field at the base level when it comes to earning points.

Each ER egg that is hatched, and then thrown back to the ap, earns a point because the egg is turning into a hatchy before leaving the scroll. Each egg bred and manually abandoned is a point (because you are obtaining an egg)

These are things that can be easily abused, and therefore should have limits.

I am pro limits for exactly this reason. I have 5k dragons; I could breed the LOT in one day if I could be bothered. I shouldn't be able to get my - say - gold prize from the store that way. It's not fair on players who only want to own a single pair of everything. The store MUST not be a way to force a particular play style on such players or leave them disadvantaged.

Edited July 28, 2016 by fuzzbucket

olympe · July 28, 2016

Adding my own opinion... blue is mine.

I said I would wait until Thuban posted.. she has, so I'm replying..

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What can be purchased with Shards? Agreed

- Any dragon that is obtainable in cave, Prize dragons and Past Holiday dragons during their specific windows.

- Items that mimic BSAs (both existing, and suggested)

- Underpopulated breeds could also be offered as low-time eggs or even as hatchlings to promote picking up the breed in question.

- Since CB hybrids / alts / colored stripes and the like have been taken out of the discussion due to TJ, it's probably worthless to say so - but I'd still like to see them in the store. Maybe at extremely high prices, but still. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, I know that.

How are shards earned? I still don't see the need for a cap or a time limit

I do. At least for breeding, (re-)naming, teleporting. Or someone with a scroll of 10k dragons could simply breed all of them every week, giving them 500 shards in one go and probably flooding the AP with lots of eggs most players don't want. Alternately, you only get a shard for breeding if you keep the egg. Or you'll have to pay the shard you got for breeding when you abandon an egg. Otherwise, I could see many people going to the AP, catch egg XxXXx, abandon it, catch it again (after someone else had it)...

- We also had a consensus (I think) about other actions being rewarded with shards: Naming a dragon for the first time, using Incubate, Influence, Fertility (?), and we were discussing Describe somewhere, too.

-By collecting, breeding and raising dragons. Obtaining an egg, hatching an egg into hatchy stage, and raising a dragon to adulthood earns one point each step of the way. Using certain BSAs earn a point (Incubate, Influence, Fertility). There is a 100 point cap in place, per 8 day cycle (though 16 days could work).

An 8 day cycle is crap. It might be working nicely with Valkemare lore, but it's still crap. Because we live in a world with a 7 day rhythm

-Some breeds can earn extra points if the store has decided they they are a overstocked. These dragons would earn an extra .2 shards once they have grown to adult stage, or have been frozen. NO limit on the bonus points.

Seriously, I prefer whole numbers. Who's going to break off one fifth of a shard? What are these pieces called? Shard dust?

How are they used? Agreed

-Shards can be traded in to an NPC trader for "Cave" biome eggs, and items

How are prices set: Since we aren't discussing specific prices - Agreed - but I think the prices will need LOTS of discussion before approval

-We decided to use Golds as the most expensive dragon, and broke the other breeds down as being worth a percentage of golds.

What limitations exist?

-Some actions have a limit to how many times they can be applied towards the "weekly" goal. I'd like to discuss this further because I don't agree with limits like this

-There is absolutely no user to user interaction for any part of this. Nothing obtained from the store is tradable, the currency is untradable.

-The store will not open to users until they have obtained Bronze badge, however, they will earn points from day one.

-CB BRED Alts and Hybrids are not part of this.

Things that could be expanded: no comment at this time I'd leave that for a later date. Let's get the store up and running first. KISS applies.

-We have lore for various sections of the store in the event it is needed.

-Mini games are something that some users have expressed an interest in as a way to earn points.

-Also various sales and contests that revolve around playing the game (raising x number of things to earn points). Raffles of sorts could also happen, but arent a driving factor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main reason I disagree with the suggested prices and the limits are because I think there has been too much emphasis on possible abuse. I think we should try to come up with the best, most reasonable store that will cater to the majority of players, and let TJ deal with anyone who tries to abuse the system. Stopping abuse is NOT our job and I don't think we should even be considering it for the discussion.

Even though it is, undoubtedly, TJ's place to decide how to deal with people who try to abuse the system (may we call them cheaters, for shortness' sake?), I think it's a good idea to point out major loopholes and suggest ways to deal with them.

Maybe, instead of limits, the following criteria could work:

Obtain an egg (via catching, breeding and maybe teleport): You only get the shard after the egg has spent 24 hours on your scroll. This stops people from grabbing and abandoning every egg in the AP over and over again to grind for shards.

Incubate, Influence: You only get the extra shard for this once the egg hatches on your scroll. Stops people with armies of reds or pinks from abusing the BSA to grind for more shards. (Catch AP egg, incubate, influence, abandon, catch another AP egg...)

Fertility: You only get the extra shard if you breed the dragon you used Fertility on.

Name, Describe: Only the first time a dragon is named or described will gain you a shard. (Describe might still be debatable, though, as it causes extra work for mods. Also, the shards for descriptions can only count once the description is approved.)

Stun: Should also be included in the list of BSAs that get rewarded IMHO. Yes, you could theoretically stun everything, but it will cost you scroll space, which, in itself, is limited already. Maybe use a similar mechanism to what I suggested for other BSAs: Only reward the shard once the hatchling grows up.

Breed: No shards for breeding itself, unless you keep the egg for at least 24 hours, in which case it counts as "Obtain an egg" (see above).

Fuzzbucket · July 28, 2016

The base framework hasnt changed much since the beginning. Its always been play the game, earn shards for playing the game however it is you play, get things in return for shards at its very core. The fluff is what makes it interesting.

Actually - the fluff is what brings me to the point of despair. I like the brief summary. THAT's what I had hoped to see. Fluff free store. Earn points without grinding - and it should ALL be doable without extra non-core activities or forcing a change of play style for anyone - buy what you saved for. End of.

cyradis4 · July 28, 2016

Actually - the fluff is what brings me to the point of despair. I like the brief summary. THAT's what I had hoped to see. Fluff free store. Earn points without grinding - and it should ALL be doable without extra non-core activities or forcing a change of play style for anyone - buy what you saved for. End of.

I find it extremely amusing:

Everybody argued and *complained* about there NOT being details when there weren't details.... And people were saying "we need a fully fleshed out idea!"....

And now that there is a fully fleshed out idea, people are complaining that there *are* details! And closed loopholes and so on and so forth.

You can't ever win.

Having said that, Thu, your summary works perfect to describe the core mechanics. Everything outside of that is for TJ to decide, anyway.

For those complaining about the "5th of a shard", its to show that the number is 1/5th of the point you get for say, breeding an egg. So if you actually get 5 points, then you get 1 point extra for the blocker. But that *also* means that all prices are also 5x higher. All prices, shards earned, and limits are all relative to each other and so long as all are boosted at the same rate, the actual *number* doesn't matter.

As for the 8 day cycle, its purely an RP mechanic and has nothing to do with splitting out or dividing. You can shift it to 7 with no issues.... but then, the LIMIT of what you can earn in that cycle will decrease by a corresponding amount. There's pros and cons to both ways, but I personally favor the RP as it adds extra flavor, and gives added incentive to keep track of the moon cycles... which is rather important for Lunar Heralds. And very few active players will ever have to worry about it, because they will hit their cap barely halfway through whatever cycle is chosen.

As for the prices.... They have been discussed, *ad nauseum*, for the last year and a half and what's in the first post IS the consensus and the end result of extreme discussion. You may not agree with it. Frankly, I don't agree with it all the way either, but it IS the compromise chosen... And does not need further discussion. Certainly not in order to get this idea out of the barn!

The bonuses, I'd call them a core issue too... or more precisely, an addition designed to help correct an *extreme* core game-play problem. So I'd keep that as a "core" issue because it'd help so many people over the long run.

Cheers!

C4.

Cinnamin Draconna · July 28, 2016

Why is 'grinding' such an issue? If player A decides to 'grind' how does it affect player B? Player B could also grind if they wanted to, but they chose not to, so how does that affect player A?

DC is NOT an interactive game.. trading is about as close as it gets and that's still pretty impersonal. So what another player does or doesn't do does NOT affect me. Again, everyone is worried about what MIGHT happen, or that someone else MIGHT get something sooner than they do. So what? If I want to work hard and earn tons of points, I should be allowed to. And if player C just wants to sit back and relax while they earn their points, they should be allowed to play their way too. What one player does has no effect on what another player does, and that's the bottom line.

That's why I think that the limits, caps or whatever are unnecessary.

An 8 day cycle is crap. It might be working nicely with Valkemare lore, but it's still crap. Because we live in a world with a 7 day rhythm

Again with the RP *sigh* RP is NOT an official part of DC and every time someone brings it up as a 'why' or 'why not' something should be added/removed/changed it makes me ANGRY!!! Making sure something fits the overall theme of DC... i.e. a medieval setting.. is important. But making it fit some totally made up lore is NOT. In the real world we have a week that is 7 days long and is usually counted from Sunday thru Saturday as is shown on every calendar produced in the USA, and since DC is a USA based game that's the 'lore' that should count.

There are details and then there are details intended to drag out the discussion for no purpose except to get someone else's point across. All this bull about grinding, realism, acceptable lore, fractions, percentages, ad nauseum is completely and totally UNNECESSARY. _Sin_'s version of a concensus is/was just as valid as mine or Thuban's or anyones.. what matters is getting the point across and setting down the basic mechanics.

WE do NOT need to be discussing prices. WE determine what we believe the base rate should be.. which was decided to be based on the value of a caveborn Gold Dragon.. then we turn that mechanic over to TJ to put a value on all other dragons that can be purchased in the Store. He's the one who determins rarity and ratios, so he's the only one who can legitimitly say what dragons are worth in relation to one another. Now hopefully, he'll ask our opinions on pricing, but that is a whole other discussion and should not be a part of this thread. We can make suggestions.. which is what this subforum/thread is for.. but in the end, it's all up to TJ.. whether we like it or not.

Now at this point I think we need to go back to the 'what can earn points' discussion, because it seems that there may be some confusion. I'm seeing some things that I agree with, some that I don't and some that need clarification.

I also suggest we do a threadwipe or at least a cleaning to clear out any irrelevant tangents.

angelicdragonpuppy · July 28, 2016

Cinnamin, I actually think allowing grinding would have a detrimental effect all the same, and here's why. For a brief time, I played the game Flight Rising. For a while it was fun... but I quickly began to feel that if I wasn't willing to spend hours every day grinding fights and mini games and sending off my poor dragons and making art for the game, then I would never ever have half as much nice stuff as those who did. I work, and I have other hobbies; having to compete with people who seemed to live on the game made me feel like a lesser player and was part of what drove me off a few short weeks after joining.

I believe the detrimental effect would be the same here if no caps were in place. Even if shards and dragons can't be traded, their offspring can. Seeing someone who's on summer vacation cheerfully grind their way to a bunch of prize dragons and sell their offspring off for riches while I'm stuck going to work every day would seriously hamper my morale. We already see this to some extent with the people who have time to hunt the cave for hours for metals versus those who don't. I'd rather not see this put into the store as well.

A huge part of what I love about DC is that it's so laid back. Oh sure, it can get frantic at times (with much love and fear I await the holidays, and even now juggling a bunch of trades and breeding projects at once keeps me on my toes!), but in general it's a game I feel I don't have to play for five hours a day to do well in. And I very, very much appreciate that.

In contrast, if grinding was allowed here, while I of course wouldn't /have/ to do it, I'd feel I /need/ to do it to stay competitive to get all the nice dragons I want to collect.

Edited July 28, 2016 by angelicdragonpuppy

angelicdragonpuppy · July 28, 2016

Sorry, double posting because this is a totally different point and I don't want it to be missed if I just edit it in:

But I agree a 7-day cycle makes much more sense. It seems the 8-day cycle was based around the lunar changes, but since only one dragon on DC currently cares about lunar cycles, whereas every dragon from largest to smallest operates on a 7-day breeding cycle, that our dragon loving characters would be far more attuned to that cycle than the moons'. So there's a fine lore reason to have it that way too. And, as I mentioned before, I think it would be much easier to remember.

Fuzzbucket · July 28, 2016

I find it extremely amusing:
Everybody argued and *complained* about there NOT being details when there weren't details.... And people were saying "we need a fully fleshed out idea!"....

And now that there is a fully fleshed out idea, people are complaining that there *are* details! And closed loopholes and so on and so forth.

You can't ever win.

Everyone didn't - I "complained" that there was too much at the time. I think what I said was "my head hurts" !

As to grinding - what ADP said. If the way to get "ahead" were to become grinding in the store - the game would get to be a chore.

Also - while I am retired and have lots of time - MANY players don't; also, when I am in Canada I am on capped internet, which restricts my play enormously - I tend to save it for when there might be a new release, and go to a coffee shop occasionally to breed. If I had to grind to play and get what I need and if I lived there all the time - the game would be hugely limited for me. Many others are in that kind of position.

Cinnamin Draconna · July 28, 2016

I value your response and opinion ADP, I just think you're not seeing past the 'why can't I have what they have' block. Someone is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage to someone else, that's just the nature of reality. However, if we work out the basics properly, there really shouldn't be that big of a difference.

The mechanic we need to apply here is what counts to earn points and the best way to make sure it's fair for everyone is a scroll limit, not a points limit. I'll explain more about that later, once we get the discussion rolling again. I'm afraid I'd just confuse things if I started discussing this prematurely. I'll say this tho... minigames.

And for the record.. I NEVER intend to do any grinding myself and if we do things properly, no one else will be grinding either. THAT's why I say we need more discussion.

angelicdragonpuppy · July 28, 2016

I value your response and opinion ADP, I just think you're not seeing past the 'why can't I have what they have' block. Someone is ALWAYS going to be at a disadvantage to someone else, that's just the nature of reality. However, if we work out the basics properly, there really shouldn't be that big of a difference.

The mechanic we need to apply here is what counts to earn points and the best way to make sure it's fair for everyone is a scroll limit, not a points limit. I'll explain more about that later, once we get the discussion rolling again. I'm afraid I'd just confuse things if I started discussing this prematurely. I'll say this tho... minigames.

And for the record.. I NEVER intend to do any grinding myself and if we do things properly, no one else will be grinding either. THAT's why I say we need more discussion.

Well, part of the reason I supported the store to begin with (other than to get CB Prizes--biased! ) was to help out people I know play the game a lot, but still just aren't able to get themselves CB Metals / other rares. In which case, the store was actually a balancing mechanism to help reduce disadvantage, which is why allowing a new form of disadvantage (it won't matter so much that people can spend hours hunting when others can't, but now all that time will be spent grinding instead) seems contrary.

That being said, I'd like to hear your thoughts. What I'm worried about is a massive grinding based difference where one person can get dozens of times more shards than someone else by spending hours grinding. If what you're envisioning is a much less drastic difference, then it wouldn't be so terrifying :3

cyradis4 · July 28, 2016

ADP's point about Flight Rising is VERY valid, because its brutally hard to get ahead in that game without grinding. Always at the bottom tier just sucks, and without grinding... you can't get any higher in that game, unless you have tons of RL $$. Even getting the festival items (which can be sold years down the road for currency) takes a *lot* of grinding.

One of the worst things you can do in DC is to force people to grind in order to stay competitive with those that can. You say, it doesn't affect you if 100 people get CB prizes.... Except.... It drastically alters the trade market very quickly. And getting CB Golds too fast could *easily* screw with the ratios. If CB Prizes and CB Golds and Silvers were not part of the deal, it'd be something else. But they are.

Seeing as the store dragons (or their OFFSPRING) most definitely WILL affect the RATIOS *and* the peer-to-peer trading marking, its FALSE to say grinding won't affect you. It won't do so directly if you don't trade, but it will affect every single person indirectly. Grinding would let people add hundreds and hundreds of CB Golds to the Cave (outside the ratios control!) *very* fast.

Remember that incident a few years back when Golds were easy to get? Do YOU remember the fallout? How incredibly, ridiculously rare Golds were? Do you remember what happened to the Seasonals after GWs were released.... and Winters vanished, Springs were trading for CB Golds, and they didn't start to come back till the next fall? Remember that time period where Stripes and Blacks were trading for CB Golds too? And remember those 3 months when every single bred black *alted*?

Like it or hate it, this idea WILL affect the ratios, which affects EVERYONE which is why NO grinding can be allowed. And I'll fight to the last to prevent that.

The blocker programs on the other hand, for the bonuses, directly helps balance the ratios.... countering (in theory) the additional bonuses. And isn't grinding, anyway.

As for the RP? Take a good, hard look at the front page of DC, and the changes made over the last two years. Clearly, there IS some RP to the game, and TJ's been adding more! So saying its not official is also wrong. It is official: TJ's made it official. So making something fit with the lore, so long as it doesn't cause major game play issues, makes sense if you want something added. And having an 8 day week isn't game breaking, its a convenience thing. So for that, TJ will be the one to decide if its important. Honestly? It wouldn't affect me in the last, as I'm an active player.

As for prices? I'm not discussing prices, they've already been brought up, discussed, and a consensus arrived at. Not everyone agrees with said consensus, but then not everyone ever does.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the "what can earn points", there's this from the front page, part of the much-maligned "details":

How Shards are Earned
- Everyday user-activity.
  - 1 point per day a user is “active”.
- Dragon Raising sub-total:
  - 100 shards per 8 days, resetting every time the moon Cirion goes full / new (was 85 shards per 7 days, but as the moon is part of DC and the 7 day week isn’t...).
    - The 8 days was chosen over daily because that allows those who play every day or every other day to still achieve the max limit. The full 16 days with a limit of 200 points could also work
  - You can earn these shards in any proportion from the activities listed, but once you reach the limit of 100 you can earn no more reg shards for those 8 days.
  - Each activity gives you 1 shard toward the total for that cycle.
  - How to earn them:
    - Catching / breeding an egg:
      - Breeding or catching an egg from the Biomes
      - Direct to AP eggs: Do not count. The egg must be on your scroll, even if for just one second, to count.
    - Hatching an egg
      - Egg hatches on your scroll.
      - Where it came from doesn’t matter.
    - Growing a hatchling
      - Hatchie grows on your scroll
      - Where it came from doesn’t matter
    - Dragon-growing related BSA: Incubate, Influence, Fertility, Bite
      - Any BSA that affects growing dragons or their production but does not directly create the egg.
    - Naming:
      - Giving a dragon a name for the first time is the only one that counts
      - This was added as a way to help those who do not collect many dragons, or who are new, boost their points totals each cycle to be close to what the Gold Trophy very active players can do.
    - Describing a dragon: Does NOT count
      - To prevent spam descriptions, you can’t point when you make it. But the backlog is so long that there’s no way to predict when it will be approved.
      - And I don’t want the mods willing to approve on request spammed.
      - So until something changes in the description approving front, they don’t get shards.

Edited July 28, 2016 by cyradis4

angelicdragonpuppy · July 28, 2016

Just a quick point to beat a dead horse:

100 shards per 8 days, resetting every time the moon Cirion goes full / new (was 85 shards per 7 days, but as the moon is part of DC and the 7 day week isn’t...).

Dragons breed on a weekly cycle, so the 7 day week IS in DC and in a very important way, too, for us dragon raisers. I'm much more concerned about when Mr. Smaug can breed again then I am about whether the moon is or isn't shining tonight (except for you lunar herald lovers. You guys are outcasts. Shame, shame! ). Holiday breeding and most BSAs operate on a 7-week cycle, too, while again, in contrast... the only moon related thing in the whole game right now is the color cycle of one breed of dragon.

Also regarding descriptions, since the new option to view pending descriptions is in place, perhaps that could become a thing again? If it was just a 1 point per description thing I doubt anyone would be spamming it, since there are much more effective ways to get shards, but it'd be nice for those who do. (And, for the record, I'm not describing things anymore, so it doesn't benefit me >__<)

Edited July 28, 2016 by angelicdragonpuppy

cyradis4 · July 28, 2016

Also regarding descriptions, since the new option to view pending descriptions is in place, perhaps that could become a thing again? If it was just a 1 point per description thing I doubt anyone would be spamming it, since there are much more effective ways to get shards, but it'd be nice for those who do. (And, for the record, I'm not describing things anymore, so it doesn't benefit me >__<)

So long as a "cycle" is multiple days long (over 5 days) its really a preference issue, hence why some people treating it like the end of the world is so mind boggling. We do have things that work on a 1 week cycle, but they are from before TJ started to add in RP elements.

Yea, if the descriptions went to the 100 pt total, I see no reason to be concerned. Like you said, the initial concern was because if they aren't approved you'll never see them. And if you are going to spam, you can only do so many per cycle. And if you are having trouble maxing out your point totals (which I doubt most active users will), then like you said, there are other ways to spam-points.

Any other issues / lack of clarity in that section? I can change it as we go if there are any lack of clarities. I also added in the Stun BSA. It does affect dragon growing, it just doesn't make it faster.

Current:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the "what can earn points", there's this from the front page, part of the much-maligned "details":

How Shards are Earned
- Everyday user-activity.
  - 1 point per day a user is “active”.
- Dragon Raising sub-total:
  - 100 shards per 8 days, resetting every time the moon Cirion goes full / new (was 85 shards per 7 days, but as the moon is part of DC and the 7 day week isn’t...). (can be 7 days with no effective change)
    - The 8 days was chosen over daily because that allows those who play every day or every other day to still achieve the max limit. The full 16 days with a limit of 200 points could also work
  - You can earn these shards in any proportion from the activities listed, but once you reach the limit of 100 you can earn no more reg shards for that cycle.
  - Each activity gives you 1 shard toward the total for that cycle.
  - How to earn them:
    - Catching / breeding an egg:
      - Breeding or catching an egg from the Biomes
      - Direct to AP eggs: Do not count. The egg must be on your scroll, even if for just one second, to count.
    - Hatching an egg
      - Egg hatches on your scroll.
      - Where it came from doesn’t matter.
    - Growing a hatchling
      - Hatchie grows on your scroll
      - Where it came from doesn’t matter
    - Dragon-growing related BSA: Incubate, Influence, Fertility, Bite, Stun
      - Any BSA that affects growing dragons or their production but does not directly create the egg.
    - Naming:
      - Giving a dragon a name for the first time is the only one that counts
      - This was added as a way to help those who do not collect many dragons, or who are new, boost their points totals each cycle to be close to what the Gold Trophy very active players can do.
    - Describing a dragon: Changed to count
      - As it counts to the cycle total and we can now view descriptions, this will count.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers!

C4.

Edited July 28, 2016 by cyradis4

Thuban · July 28, 2016

Look guys. Summary strips all details. Thats the point of a summary, is it not?

Cyra is right: no matter what I have done, there has been nitpicking over every step of the way. too much detail, not enough detail, needs lore, lore is stupid, should use game mechanics, using game mechanics doesnt make sense for real world..

I know the first post is too long.. but its what had to be done to get all the details (from the timeframe) in one spot, so people would stop driving this thread in circles asking the same questions over and over again. Now, I'm trying to "summarize" everything about the first post into the same simple sounding layout.

I /liked/ the idea of it being a cave system, with various locations for different aspects (as that was framework for being able to expand later. I liked that the breeder related things were separate from the traders, and that the item section was different than the trader. It should have made it easy for getting JUST the store part open (which is the main purpose) with room to expand to the other things LATER.) Pretty bummed that it seems you guys want it thrown out completely?

In regards to requests for more pricing discussion:

I trust that TJ knows math. He can pick any number he wants as how many shards a GOLD egg is worth, and then math it back from there to work out about how many points it takes if you are grinding for max points every window. Its really not hard to figure out using the layout that Cyra had suggested (using the 7 day scale with the 100 total because yay percentages...)

Gold egg = 35875 (my son provided a random number for us)

6 months = 182.5 =26 weeks = average of 1376 a week needs earned to get it RIGHT at the 6 month mark

25% of those points come from catching/breeding an egg

30% from hatching an egg into a hatchy

30% from hatchys growing into adults

15% comes from using BSAs

There is a bit more math needed (like how many dragons a person needs to raise to get the full amount) I imagine this is behind the scene info, something that he can/will tweak as needed until he is satisfied. We provided a baseline for how the points earned from the core thing of actually raising dragons, he has room to apply it however he needs to to make it work.

They wont necessarily be pretty numbers, but someone who can pull them every window will be able to get their gold egg RIGHT at the 6month mark, if that is their goal.

Using that same price for the gold, and applying the ratios you guys had agreed on for the tiers.. gives the price for each type of egg. This (to me) is why it hasnt mattered what the things actually cost in exact numbers, because it can all be broken down by the time it takes to /earn/ them.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Thuban

Cinnamin Draconna · July 28, 2016

I'm sorry but what 'official' RP are you talking about?

I do not have to RP to play DC. I do not have to describe dragons to play DC. Nothing I do on DC has anything to do with RP. Because if it did, I wouldn't be playing. If you mean on the forums, that is NOT official and is NOT part of the actual game. The front page has links to the AP and the Biomes.. links to recent News posts in the forum.. and a very bad map.. so what does any of that have to do with RP?

ADP is correct, DC already works on a 7 day cycle and there is no reason the Store shouldn't either. Trying to base it on the Lunar Herald cycle is just a way to try to add RP to the game... and not everyone wants RP.

How Shards are Earned

Everyday user-activity.

1 point per day a user is “active”. - Agreed

Dragon Raising sub-total:

~~100 shards per 8 days, resetting every time the moon Cirion goes full / new (was 85 shards per 7 days, but as the moon is part of DC and the 7 day week isn’t...).~~

The 8 days was chosen over daily because that allows those who play every day or every other day to still achieve the max limit. The full 16 days with a limit of 200 points could also work - the game IS based on a 7 day cycle; the 8 day cycle is pure RP and should NOT be allowed

You can earn these shards in any proportion from the activities listed, ~~but once you reach the limit of 100 you can earn no more reg shards for those 8 days.~~ - there is no need for a limit, and again NO with the 8 day cycle

Each activity gives you 1 shard toward the total for that cycle.

How to earn them: - Breeding should not count because it gives players with large scrolls an unfair advantage and eliminating breeding would mean we wouldn't need a limit

Catching an egg from the cave or AP and keeping it/ ~~breeding an egg:~~

Breeding or catching an egg from the Biomes or AP

~~Direct to AP eggs: Do not count. The egg must be on your scroll, even if for just one second, to count.~~ - unneeded if we eliminate breeding

Hatching an egg - Agreed

Egg hatches on your scroll.

Where it came from doesn’t matter.

Growing a hatchling - Agreed

Hatchie grows on your scroll

Where it came from doesn’t matter

Dragon-growing related BSA: Incubate, Influence, Fertility, Bite (I would only include Bite if the egg stayed on your scroll, if it was repulsed or killed, it should not count)

Any BSA that affects growing dragons or their production but does not directly create the egg. I would also include Teleport

Naming: - I'm neutral on this one, I don't always name my dragons

Giving a dragon a name for the first time is the only one that counts

This was added as a way to help those who do not collect many dragons, or who are new, boost their points totals each cycle to be close to what the Gold Trophy very active players can do.

Describing a dragon: Does NOT count - Agreed; this is part of RP and should never be allowed

To prevent spam descriptions, you can’t point when you make it. But the backlog is so long that there’s no way to predict when it will be approved.

And I don’t want the mods willing to approve on request spammed.

So until something changes in the description approving front, they don’t get shards.

Now before everyone gets their undies in a wad, let me explain my rationale about eliminating breeding as a point earner. Breeding happens to be my primary thing on DC and it is for a lot of others as well. BUT, I have over 4500 dragons and there are players with over 10k dragons.. that's a HUGE disadvantage to a newbie or casual player. I can breed a LOT of dragons, but I only have 21 slots for growing things and it takes 5 days minimum for an egg to become a dragon. That slot limit is the only limit that should be in place, because THAT is what will limit what we can catch/hatch/mature in a week.

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