Posted May 11, 2016 Ideally, a person should be able to afford 3 holidays a year (if doing one per event, or saving up for 3 for a specific holiday). Prices are still going to move around a bit, depending on how TJs background stuff works.. what we are doing is setting up a baseline, which Fiona did a remarkable job on. I still want prices to work similar to the way I have been proposing for a long long time now, but I needed to change it a little to make it work, no matter what happens in this sites future. Everything below GOLD dragons, will fluxuate in pricing a bit, depending on what GOLDS specifically are doing. The pricing is relevant to GOLDS standard price. Gold are the ONLY thing that needs to be tied to ratios/rarity, this allows us, the users to control the pricing. As for prizes: Im not a fan of just handing them to people. 8 months of points, sure. A year of points, sure. The occasional sale where they are cheaper, sure. But as a baseline, sorry, I'm not supporting more than one in a year as a baseline (meaning that if their prices are set to 7-9 months and you choose not to get them, then sure, the following year you can have more than one. If they go on sale and you can afford three, yay, congrats... but im not setting this up to just hand people things without some work. There was effort for most of the raffles (you had to play to get tickets, outside of the tree decorating). These points are set up to be earned without any real extra steps beyond what you already do on a day to day basis. Ideally, you will be able to afford a prize AND at least a single holiday, if not two (I place holidays at around 4 months of points in my head... +/- 2-3 weeks. Anytime I say "around" a price, assume i mean +/- a few weeks to a month in either direction). Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Regular Dragons:Tier OneAlbino Anagalis Antarean Balloon Black (regular) Black Capped Teimarr Black Tea Blacktip Bleeding Moon Blue-Banded Bright Breasted Brimstone Brute Canopy Carmine Cassare Celestial Coastal Waverunner Dark Green (regular) Daydream Deep Sea Dorsal (Purple) Electric Ember Falconiform Fever Flamingo Frostbite Gemshard (random) Gold-Horned Tangar Green Guardian Harvest Hellfire Horse Imperial Fleshcrowne Lumina Magi Mint Moonstone Sunstone Nebula (random) Neotropical Nhiostrife Nocturne Olive Pillow Pink Plated Colossus Purple Red Red-Finned Tidal Ridgewing (Purple) Royal Blue Royal Crimson Sapphire Seasonal (season determined by what is dropping in the cave) Seragamma Skywing Speckle-Throated Spirit Ward Spitfire Striped (white) Storm Spotted Greenwing Striped River Sun (rise or set determined by time of hatching) Sunsong Swallowtail Terrae Tri-Horn Tsunami Turpentine Water Water Walker Waterhorse Whiptail White Yellow-Crowned Tier TwoDorsal (Red) Lunar Herald (color determined by moon phase at time of purchase) Pyralspite (Almandine) Pyralspite (Spessartine) Pyralspite (Pyrope) Ridgewing (Tan) Stone Undine (regular) Xenowyrm (Astrapi) Xenowyrm (Thalassa) Xenowyrm (Mageia) Xenowyrm (Chrono) Xenowyrm (Gaia) Xenowyrm (Pyro) Tier ThreeBlusang Gemshard (blue) Gemshard (green) Gemshard (red) Golden Wyvern Ice Magma Nebula (red/green) Nebula (blue/purple) Thunder Tier FourCopper (Rainbow) Copper (Verdigris) Copper (Liver of Sulfur) Tier FiveGold Silver Tier SixPrize (gold shimmerscale) Prize (silver shimmerscale) Prize (bronze shimmerscale) Prize (gold tinsel) Prize (silver tinsel) Prize (bronze tinsel) Holiday: All (I'm including Vampires here) Limited Breeders: Priced as Tier One Drakes:Glory drake (Day/night determined by time of purchase) Glaucus drake Greater Spotted drake Howler drake Ochredrake Pygmies:Crimson Flare pygmy Dark Myst pygmy Magelight pygmy Misfit pygmy Nilia pygmy Pygmy Seawyrm pygmy Two-Headeds:Duotone Gilded Bloodscale Hooktalon Two-Headed Two-Headed Lindwurm Unbreedables: Priced as Tier ThreeBlue dino Cheese Chicken Green dino Paper Purple dino Red dino Yellow dino Available Perhaps Through Alternate Pricing Methods: (Method options discussion possibly tabled for a later time) Geode Hellhorse Shallow Water Soulpeace Two-Finned Bluna Ultraviolet Black (alt) Deep Green (alt) Undine (alt) Stripe (black) Stripe (blue) Stripe (green) Stripe (red) Not Offered by the Trader: Guardian of Nature Avatar of Change Avatar of Creation Avatar of Destruction Neglected Dragon *** Prices given based on a 300 point per week cap*** Tier One: 300 points - price fluctuation calculated per week of +/- 5% per dragon. Dragons calculated as underpopulated get a price reduction of 10% per 5% under ideal population before the fluctuation is calculated. This is behind-the-scenes math handled automatically by the code. Tier Two: 900 points - price fluctuation calculated per week of +/- 3% per dragon. Dragons calculated as underpopulated get a price reduction of 5% per 5% under ideal population before the fluctuation is calculated. Tier Three: 1950 points - price fluctuation calculated per week of +/- 2% per dragon. Tier Four: 3900 points - price fluctuation calculated per week of +/- 1% per dragon. Tier Five: 7800 points - no price fluctuation Golds at 7800 Silvers at about 16% reduction to around 6500 Tier Six: graduated pricing - no price fluctuation Bronzes: 10,000 points Silvers: 11,000 points Golds: 12,000 points Holiday Pricing: 5,200 points - all holidays subject to existing scroll limits. Price fluctuation calculated somehow - only purchasable in their season. ------- Notes: Tiers are chosen based on what I think makes sense based on the concept. Others may not agree but this is my list. I do not agree with the thinking that older holidays should be more expensive. One, I think it's best to treat all holidays the same, and two, the older holidays are the ones that need the new blood the most. People may be basing the idea of higher prices for older holidays on the idea that Hollies are so greatly desired. But I think those should be equally available for people to earn in the store. In fact, we need more of them than any other holiday, not less. Also note that if we ever get rare or uncommon limited breeders their pricing would reflect that in their tier placement. (for example a gold pygmy would be tier 5.) I moved a couple things around based on input, plus lowered some prices a bit. Nebulae and Gemshards are now offered in a Random variety at Tier 1 with the ability to get a specific color at Tier 2. Tier 2 is now set at 3 weeks instead of 4. Tier 3 moved to 6 weeks instead of 8. Tier 4 is set at 3 months, tier 5 at 6 months, but with a reduction for Silvers of about one month. I think Silvers should also not fluctuate so they're still in the Gold tier, just reduced in price a bit. Holidays are still set at 4 months of effort each. I know that some of you have strong reasons for wanting that lower. In my opinion it's about right, and Thuban appears to agree. If TJ wants them lower, based on reasons given here, he can certainly do that. If he does decide that four a year is reasonable their price would be 3900 instead of 5200. Thu says price fluctuations for everything under Gold, so that will be a factor too. Probably price fluctuation for these should be on the same order as for Tier 4. I've currently got bronze Prizes set at around 7 1/2 months. Silver Prizes would be about 8 1/2 months. Gold Prizes end up being a little more than 9 months. If we went with a straight 7, 8 and 9 months the prices would be 9,100, 10,400 and 11,700. I liked the nice even numbers though. and of course, these prices are also subject to change, by TJ, by opinion here, by whatever ends up changing it. The price fluctuation as I suggested it may not be how TJ does it... lots of things could end up being different in practice than what I have here. This is, after all, a suggestion, not how it must be in the end. Edited May 11, 2016 by Fiona BlueFire Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 What about a single BSA package for beginners (no trophy) to get them started? It should contain 1 red, 1 magi and 2 pinks (one male, one female) to provide them with the most important BSAs in the game. I also think it should be at a very low price (2-3 weeks of playing with a beginner's scroll (only 4 egg slots / 12 gowing things overall slots), but available only once for every player. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Fi, my issue with Golden Wyverns being "Tier 3" is simple. Yes, they are metallic quality. Yes, they are much loved. But they are *common* in the Cave, dead easy to get, and if you ask 10 people, 6 or 7 of them will say they are *not* a Metal. I've done this in the IRC multiple times, and more than half say they aren't a metal and should not be in the Metallic Trading Thread. In fact, those that say they are are all newer users... to whom they've always been in the Metallic thread! Coppers, on the other hand, go heavily toward "metals" when you ask about it. Same for Blusang. You seem to be basing your pricing on a temporary surge in demand for them, which drove them into user-driven rare status. They are a fabulous sprite, and they were released back when there weren't many releases coming out. But they are not tier 3 worthy. Tier 2, sure. But Tier 3? So I'd still put GWs and Blusangs in Tier 2. They are no where *near* Trio difficulty, neither in getting CBs, breeding them, OR trading. But they are more in-demand than most Tier 1s. I still think having Stones in Tier 2 because of a glitch and their supposed size is.... quite ridiculous. While I realize TJ thinks they are the size of mountains.... There are too many of them in-cave for me to believe that. Simply put, the only reason to put Stones there is because they refused Silvers and their "size". And... Remember when Turps first came out, we had people testing refusals with them? I think we hit 500+ refusals from Ridgewings with 0 non-refusals (over several weeks) before suddenly.... The two could breed. TJ is mortal, and the Ridgewings were clearly a glitch. And I'd say that as stones bred just fine with Golds.... The Silver / Stone issue was a glitch, as well. So I'd put them in Tier 1, because everything else about them is Tier 1. As for the "random" vs "not-random", I'd put not-random in Tier 3. They should be much harder to get, because you are by-passing their normal mechanics. ~~~~~ Though really, if we wanted to make it actually make sense for the Tiers (ie, not subjective), we'd do: Tier 1: Single CB Color morphs not listed elsewhere (includes CBs that have breed-only alts)This would have just about everything you currently have as Tier 1 CB Purple Ridgewings and CB Purple Dorsals would move to Tier 2 Blusangs and GWs would move here. I'd suggest upping the price of these, because this should be considered a "last resort" for the common breeds and not some sort of short cut to the Biomes. Stones would move here Your "limited breeders" (what I'd call sub-species) would be here. Tier 2: Multiple CB Color MorphsWould have any breed where there is more than 1 CB Color Morph. I'd stick the "randoms" here, and the "not-randoms" in Tier 3. This is because almost all of the species with multiple CB morphs are already here, and only those with a few strays. Would include both Ridgewings and both Dorsals. Remember, non-ratio and non-rarity based! Tier 3: Group BSAs, Unbreedables. This would be Trios and unbreedables. Trios and unbreedables, basically Right now, the only breeds we have of similar rarity to Trios are Coppers, and those are more metals than anything else Unbreedables, because they also tend to run with Trios, catchable and tradable wise. Tier 4: All Holidays. Might have to adjust the prices you have, with them being Tier 4. Tier 5: All "metals"A graduated Tier, so no set price. Price is determined by breed, more or less. Coppers would go here, because they act a lot like a true-metal. If people wanted to stick GWs here, they can. Its graduated, so their prices would still fall into line closer to Tier 1 / Tier 2 Would of course have Golds and Silvers Tier 6: Prizes. Graduated, of some sort. Could actually fold this into Tier 5. The above list is not-subjective. Yes, it might put a species in a different spot than people might want based on rarity, but its something that you can put into effect the moment a breed is released, without having to wait and see what way its ratios will go. After all, who would have put Stones or Blusangs into anything *but* Tier 1.... during their release? Or even a week or two after they grew? It was only as users demanded the Blusangs that they went rare, and stones.... Well. I've already written that out. Edited for some ridiculous typos. I haven't had enough coffee. Cheers! C4. Edited May 11, 2016 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) I don't believe the Silver x Stone issue was a glitch. There were whole charts made to calculate your chances of a given egg from each possible pairing. I believe the difficulty of breeding Silver x Stone was deliberate on TJ's part. Yes, that includes the fact that while Silver x Stone was not possible, Gold x Stone was possible. You mostly got Stones but they bred well. I believe that was designed that way. Breeding worked differently then than now. I still want them in tier 2. I think it makes sense. No one has convinced me otherwise yet. I can't share my reasoning for Blusangs. It has nothing to do with any surges of population or players' perception of their rarity. Suffice it to say, I'm pretty confident they're in the right tier. If TJ doesn't want them there he'll move them. I probably should, strictly speaking, put 2-heads in tier 2 as well, since I'm fairly certain they were released in the uncommon range. The reason I don't is because Limited Breeders are much less popular than regular dragons. I think they likely need a population boost. I agree on the specific colors from Nebula and Gemshard moving. I should have put them there to begin with. Clearly not thinking entirely clearly this morning. lol. I know from Verridith that the concept for Golden Wyverns is that they are metallic. I know how common they are to get from the cave or from breeding. But is that because they are not metals and intended to be very common or because they're under-appreciated? If their population is significantly under the ideal then that would account for both cave numbers and ease of breeding. And if the way I have that suggested is used, with discounts for underpopulated breeds, their actual pricing would reflect that. Maybe they belong in tier 2 and maybe they don't. Players' perception of what is a metal and what is not doesn't really enter into my thinking. Players' perception of what is easy to get and what is not also is not part of my thinking. That would be basing pricing on rarity, which we were told not to do. Or not to base it solely on that anyway. Coppers are a metal because they were created as metals and accepted into the cave as concepted. I believe that holds true for Golden Wyverns as well. and C4's breakdown makes some sense, but I have to think about it. There are some specific breeds that I think don't work as well with it. I have to say, there would not be a period of waiting to see where things should go based on what their ratios do. TJ would know from the moment he accepted a breed for release what the appropriate tier would be. I don't think they should be available in the store for a period of time after release but he would know where they should go based on the concept he accepted and what he set the ratio as behind the scenes. I think that is where C4's method breaks down for me. There's no rule that single color morph dragons have to be very common. You're going to end up with a lot of exceptions to "single cb color morph dragons go here unless they have a good reason to go elsewhere". If you have a lot of exceptions to a rule it's no longer a rule. Edited May 11, 2016 by Fiona BlueFire Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 Fi, why are you putting each breed where you are putting it? Based on Ratios? Rarity? Because that's where yours breaks down: Thu said very clearly that we were to do this NOT based on rarity or ratios. And anything that does not take rarity / ratios into account will put some breeds in the wrong place. That is unavoidable. Just like any subjective placement will put some in the wrong place... or at least a place many won't agree with. To be honest... I think doing the pricing based on ratios + over / under populated is the best method, and that anyone who actually *plays* the game knows perfectly well what's rare, uncommon, common, and blocker, thank you very much. Throw in a random factor, and no one will know exactly what any given breed's exact ratio is. Basically.... we already *know* the "ballpark" over / under + ratio of each and every breed.... because we play the game and it affects us constantly. So that's my choice. But if we can't use that, then we need some way to break down where each breed goes to... without someone having to *subjectively* put each breed where it needs to go. For instance.... You say there's something "special" about Blusangs that puts them in the higher tier. Really? Because I as a user am not seeing it. They breed much better than Trios, normally. They are much easier to find than Trios. They do NOT trade 1:1 with Trios. By every method available to me, they are, beyond a doubt they are at the moment (and for over a year now have been), at best Tier 2 and should NOT be with Trios. Same for GWs. If there's one thing I've learned about DC over the years, its that TJ is almost totally out of touch with his user-base and how *they* play and what *they* want. Same for about half of the Spriters. So please excuse me if I'm less than enthusiastic about having someone whom I *know* is out of touch pick where, in subjective rankings, a new breed will go. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 So you're saying I'm out of touch? Mostly what I'm going on is my understanding of the concept behind each dragon. There are some I simply don't know. What I want to avoid is dragons that are much easier to get in the store than the cave. Your method is... methodical. But there's potential of doing just that. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 So you're saying I'm out of touch? Mostly what I'm going on is my understanding of the concept behind each dragon. There are some I simply don't know. What I want to avoid is dragons that are much easier to get in the store than the cave. Your method is... methodical. But there's potential of doing just that. You personally? No, I'd say you are fairly well connected with the user-base. But there are many who aren't. >.< I would much rather a very definite framework for what goes into what tiers, because anything that's subjective is subject to "My way or the Highway". Going off of the concepts is all very well and nice, but as you said, many of them are unknown... and almost all of them are already in Tier 1, anyway. Just based on what you did, except for what, 4 breeds? Almost all of them already fall into the Tiers I laid out in exactly the same place you put them. If you look closely, you already had almost all of the multiple-CB varieties in Tier 2, and almost only them. Whether its because of the user-base or something else or chance, that's a natural split between Tier 1 and Tier 2. And Xenos would have been *far*, far better in with Trios based on what the user-base is *seeing* from them. As for them being easier to get using my method..... The solution is simple, I'd think. As you said, who on earth is going to get say, a Teimarr, from the store.... when they can be had from the Cave for a song? The answer is, only those who need the Cave designation.... And those people are going to be the lineage builders (the more fanatical ones) and to those types (I know them since I'm one of them) having a higher price is a small price to pay for that Cave designation. So the solution to it being "easier" to get some Tier 1s from the Store then from the Cave is to jack up the price of Tier 1 relative to all the others. Those that *need* that Cave designation will happily pay the price. Those that *don't*, should not be looking in the store in the first place. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 Hmm. You do have some points. So, exactly how many would you be moving? And which ones? Would you be willing to lay it out, with breeds? Bold the ones you have different from what I have. Let's see where we're at. Because arguing over minute differences is pointless. Let's see exactly how close we are. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 With all the respect due to Fiona, I much prefer cyradis4's Tiers. At least they don't seem directly linked to ratio/rarity and weren't we supposed to avoid that link? Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Tier 1: Everything Else AvailableAlbino Anagalis Antarean Balloon Black (regular) Black Capped Teimarr Black Tea Blacktip Bleeding Moon Blue-Banded Bright Breasted Brimstone Brute Canopy Carmine Cassare Celestial Coastal Waverunner Dark Green (regular) Daydream Deep Sea Electric Ember Falconiform Fever Flamingo Frostbite Gold-Horned Tangar Green Guardian Harvest Hellfire Horse Imperial Fleshcrowne Lumina Magi Mint Moonstone Sunstone Neotropical Nhiostrife Nocturne Olive Pillow Pink Plated Colossus Purple Red Red-Finned Tidal Royal Blue Royal Crimson Sapphire Seragamma Skywing Speckle-Throated Spirit Ward Spitfire Striped (white) Storm Spotted Greenwing Striped River Sunsong Swallowtail Terrae Tri-Horn Tsunami Turpentine Water Water Walker Waterhorse Whiptail White Yellow-Crowned Stone Undine (regular) Blusang Golden Wyvern Drakes Pygmies Two-Headeds Tier 2: Multiple CB Color Morphs - The "random" versions would cost say, half the price of the "pick the color you want" versionsDorsal (Purple) Dorsal (Red) Lunar Herald (color determined by moon phase at time of purchase) Pyralspite (Almandine) Pyralspite (Spessartine) Pyralspite (Pyrope) Ridgewing (Tan) Ridgewing (Purple) Xenowyrm (Astrapi) Xenowyrm (Thalassa) Xenowyrm (Mageia) Xenowyrm (Chrono) Xenowyrm (Gaia) Xenowyrm (Pyro) Seasonal (season determined by what is dropping in the cave) Sun (rise or set determined by time of hatching) Gemshard (blue) Gemshard (green) Gemshard (red) Nebula (red/green) Nebula (blue/purple) Tier 3: Group BSA and UnbreedablesIce Magma Thunder Blue dino Cheese Chicken Green dino Paper Purple dino Red dino Yellow dino Tier 4: All Holidays Tier 5: All Metals, graduated pricingGold Silver Copper (Rainbow) Copper (Verdigris) Copper (Liver of Sulfur) Prize (gold shimmerscale) Prize (silver shimmerscale) Prize (bronze shimmerscale) Prize (gold tinsel) Prize (silver tinsel) Prize (bronze tinsel) I'd say, once we decide on what tiers, then we worry about re-doing pricing, if we have to. Edited May 11, 2016 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 I think I can live with this. You're running into something I was trying - and not succeeding, in avoiding. That is, graduated prices within one tier. My vision was "everything in the tier is the same price." Which obviously didn't work unless we gave each metal and each color of prize its own tier. At least you did it purposely. And yes, once people decide they're happy with the distribution then we can talk about prices again. I think I'm close on that, as far as the different tiers is concerned. I know there are people who want certain things cheaper. And there are people who want certain things more expensive. And some of the things have people from both camps, which is an indicator that we're on the right track price-wise. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) I think I can live with this. You're running into something I was trying - and not succeeding, in avoiding. That is, graduated prices within one tier. My vision was "everything in the tier is the same price." Which obviously didn't work unless we gave each metal and each color of prize its own tier. At least you did it purposely. And yes, once people decide they're happy with the distribution then we can talk about prices again. I think I'm close on that, as far as the different tiers is concerned. I know there are people who want certain things cheaper. And there are people who want certain things more expensive. And some of the things have people from both camps, which is an indicator that we're on the right track price-wise. I don't see how we can avoid at least 1 graduated tier. Oh, we could stick Coppers in Tier 2 and have CB Golds and Silvers be the same price and CB Prizes be in another, again all at the same price. That would work, mind you, though Tier 2 would have to have its price boosted (actually Tier 2 will have to get that anyway, cuz of Xenos). Basically, if we can have Tiemars and Blusangs as the same price, then we can have the Tier 2s at a higher price and toss Coppers in with them. Same goes for CB Golds and Silvers: stick them in Tier 5 at the same price, and while yes they are *in cave* different.... This isn't in-cave, this is in the store and the eggs aren't tradable. And the same logic above goes here: if Tiemarrs and Blusangs are going to be in the same Tier, then the only two true "rares" can be, as well. Ditto for CB Prizes in Tier 6. So, the alternate tiers would look like: Tier 2: Multiple CB Color Morphs - The "random" versions would cost say, half the price of the "pick the color you want" versionsDorsal (Purple) Dorsal (Red) Lunar Herald (color determined by moon phase at time of purchase) Pyralspite (snipped for space) Ridgewing (Tan) Ridgewing (Purple) Xenowyrm (snipped for space) Seasonal (season determined by what is dropping in the cave) Sun (rise or set determined by time of hatching) Gemshard (snipped for space) Nebula (red/green) Nebula (blue/purple) Copper (Rainbow) Copper (Verdigris) Copper (Liver of Sulfur) Tier 3: Group BSA and Unbreedablessniped for space Tier 4: All Holidays Tier 5: True RaresGold Silver Tier 6: All PrizesPrize (gold shimmerscale) Prize (silver shimmerscale) Prize (bronze shimmerscale) Prize (gold tinsel) Prize (silver tinsel) Prize (bronze tinsel) Basically, we accept with the upper tiers what we accept with Tier 1: That the more common ones are waaaaay more expensive, relative to the Biomes, than the more rare dragon is. Cheers! C4. Edited May 11, 2016 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 Hmm. Yeah, you have a point. I'm not sure how I feel about coppers with the same prices as purple dorsals, but if they are at appropriate prices for coppers then sure. I don't see anyone paying that much for a purple dorsal, even if they really seriously want one with the cave tag, but whatever. And making the whole of a tier the same price is a much simpler method than graduating it. There is going to be some negative feedback on it here. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 Personally, I don't agree with purple dorsals and ridgewings to be higher than tier one. They're as common as any other common breed, and good luck trying to trade a purple dorsal for anything but something else common. Same for ridgewings. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) I'd like to see out of season seasonals offered in a higher tier please. Holiday range or whatever would be perfectly fine, but wherever they need to be to make it "fair" EDIT: While i try to make a point to skim the thread every day before work and after, I am NOT up to date on things. I am insisting on letting you guys figure out prices, and am going hands off on that front, until I have time to devote to reading everything over again. My main request is that you guys respect the fact that RATIOS and RARITIES are NOT to be accounted for in final pricing (by any official means). Golds are to be considered the standard, as they are the Official Rare that can be obtained in cave. So if 8 commons = a gold, then obviously anything you guys percieve as being common, is going to be 1/8th the cost of a gold. If 4 uncommons = gold, then uncommon prices are going to be 1/4. If 3 cb silvers = 1 cb gold, then well, you get the point. Start at golds and work backwards. The breakdown you guys have so far works, as a baseline for discussion. Our percieved views on what counts as rares or not, does NOT necessarily reflect what TJs code tells him. So this means you guys are going to define the rarity system based on your perceptions without input of any kind on the "official" front. You, the users who are willing to participate in the discussion are going to define the user economy and worth of these dragons. Edited May 11, 2016 by Thuban Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Ideally, a person should be able to afford 3 holidays a year (if doing one per event, or saving up for 3 for a specific holiday). Prices are still going to move around a bit, depending on how TJs background stuff works.. what we are doing is setting up a baseline, which Fiona did a remarkable job on. I still want prices to work similar to the way I have been proposing for a long long time now, but I needed to change it a little to make it work, no matter what happens in this sites future. Everything below GOLD dragons, will fluxuate in pricing a bit, depending on what GOLDS specifically are doing. The pricing is relevant to GOLDS standard price. Gold are the ONLY thing that needs to be tied to ratios/rarity, this allows us, the users to control the pricing. As for prizes: Im not a fan of just handing them to people. 8 months of points, sure. A year of points, sure. The occasional sale where they are cheaper, sure. But as a baseline, sorry, I'm not supporting more than one in a year as a baseline (meaning that if their prices are set to 7-9 months and you choose not to get them, then sure, the following year you can have more than one. If they go on sale and you can afford three, yay, congrats... but im not setting this up to just hand people things without some work. There was effort for most of the raffles (you had to play to get tickets, outside of the tree decorating). These points are set up to be earned without any real extra steps beyond what you already do on a day to day basis. Ideally, you will be able to afford a prize AND at least a single holiday, if not two (I place holidays at around 4 months of points in my head... +/- 2-3 weeks. Anytime I say "around" a price, assume i mean +/- a few weeks to a month in either direction). Let's assume a newbie with a -really- basic completionist scroll goal of one CB dragon of each available gender. What they will HAVE to get from the store: 12 prizes 8 Valentines (one of each breed) 16 Halloweens (two of each breed: one of each gender) 11 Xmases (one of each breed, except holly and missletoe that can be each gender. Assumes missletoes will be available as CB for both genders) And remember the numbers on the holidays will just keep increasing. I'm going to use your 8 months for a prize and 4 months for a holiday. Times: 96 months (8 years) to get the 12 prizes 156 months (13 years) to get the 39 holidays That's a whopping 21 years for a newbie to finish the basic scroll goals that can -only- be filled using the store. And that's without taking even a week off. Without spending a point on potions or CB metals or anything else. That's longer than a lot of our members have even been alive. How many people with a basic scroll goal like that are going to be -wasting- points on all those cool potions or even normal uncommons and rares when they have 21 years of point earning ahead of them just to get basic completion? How many people are going to look at that and decide this site is expecting a stupid level of commitment and not even start? Because if something is -available-, it -is- going to be added to the checklist for completionists, which is a common play style on a site like this. It's better for those of us who have been around a bit, since we have fewer holidays to get. But at the same time, there are people who will want to pick up a few more of some of the holidays even though they already have a -basic- set. I don't know about anyone else, but I find those numbers appalling. (BTW, even reducing the goal to the super super basic one CB of each sprite, that's still 6 prizes, 8 valentines, 9 xmas, and 14 halloweens, with a total collecting time of 172 months: 14 years and 4 months. That's still a looooong time) Edited May 11, 2016 by Pokemonfan13 Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 It is NOT intended to be able to get 12 prizes in any kind of a quick pace. Other suggestions out there are willing to give them away, I am unwilling to budge.I have mentioned over and over again that I want there to be room for prices to fluctuate so that it CAN be possible to get more than 1-2 a year when it comes to the prizes. There is also the possibility of mini games and mini raffles to be discussed AT A LATER DATE to speed that process up as well. I do not feel the need to give everyone ever, every male/female prize sprite just because they want it. The fact that they are being offered at all should be enough, considering that raffles are no longer a thing and at this time, there is no real hope for new cbs to hit the market... right? Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) My main request is that you guys respect the fact that RATIOS and RARITIES are NOT to be accounted for in final pricing (by any official means). Golds are to be considered the standard, as they are the Official Rare that can be obtained in cave. So if 8 commons = a gold, then obviously anything you guys percieve as being common, is going to be 1/8th the cost of a gold. If 4 uncommons = gold, then uncommon prices are going to be 1/4. If 3 cb silvers = 1 cb gold, then well, you get the point. Start at golds and work backwards. The breakdown you guys have so far works, as a baseline for discussion. Our percieved views on what counts as rares or not, does NOT necessarily reflect what TJs code tells him. So this means you guys are going to define the rarity system based on your perceptions without input of any kind on the "official" front. You, the users who are willing to participate in the discussion are going to define the user economy and worth of these dragons. I quite like the idea of the Gold standard. Sounds less complex than much of what I've been reading. At the end of my long working day, I'm all for KISS. Could anybody explain why the Gold standard shouldn't be used? I read often "Question about a trade", it is, in my opinion, the best source in the whole forum of info on "what can you get while offering whatever you have." What do I understand from there? That one CB Gold is worth: - 1:25 - 1:35 CB common Hatchies - 1:15 - 1:25 CB BSA or Trio Hatchies - half Prize @olympe: frankly I do not care, I think that, excluding people that want to have Cave on the sprite, almost nobody will ever waste points on a Purple Dorsal. Too little of a sample to worry about. ETA: I'm a bit of an anomaly. I've been able to catch or trade for CB Golds. That means also that I've been able to get every dragon available in the biomes. I do not care for CB Valentines or Halloweens. I do not care for CB Holidays, with the exception of Hollies. So, I would not waste points on anything but 2 CB Hollies and 12 CB Prizes. SO, instead of 21 years (considering 8 months for a prize and 4 months for a holiday), I would need to, IN THEORY, commit (or pretend) to be active for the next ~8 years in DC. I can do that. Not sure how many will want to. This is going to be fun. Edited May 11, 2016 by NotBambi Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) To me it's not about handing out prizes or not handing out prizes. It's about balancing the values of things that are -only- available through the store so that people don't feel that they're committing the rest of their lives to this game just to reach basic completionist scroll goals. It's also about balancing things so that people are willing to spend points on other cool things like potions and dragons that are available in the cave. At least half of the original reason for this suggestion is to have an alternate source for the CBs that are rare enough that the disadvantaged player doesn't have a chance to catch them from the cave. In the place of a newbie with a 21 year wait for the completionist goal of one CB of each available gender, all of a sudden that CB gold or silver from the store is going to look a lot less tempting, since it -can- be gotten from the cave, even if it's with great difficulty. Even for me, where I can basically dismiss the holidays from my list of stuff to buy in the store, if buying the occasional potion is going to turn my 8 year wait for all the prizes into a 10 year (or more!) wait, I'm not spending a penny on them. If it's only 2 years to get one of each gender of prizes, I'm going to be more willing lengthen that a bit with the occasional side purchase. Edit: The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that this suggestion might be better off without any dragons that are -only- available through the store. The point of this suggestion is to give an alternate means of getting dragons that are essentially unobtainable for some people. Other cool things that won't hurt that purpose were added, like potions that would do cool stuff. But prizes and old holidays, if put at the kind of prices Thu is insisting on, WILL hurt that core purpose of this suggestion. Edited May 11, 2016 by Pokemonfan13 Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 At least half of the original reason for this suggestion is to have an alternate source for the CBs that are rare enough that the disadvantaged player doesn't have a chance to catch them from the cave. In the place of a newbie with a 21 year wait for the completionist goal of one CB of each available gender, all of a sudden that CB gold or silver from the store is going to look a lot less tempting, since it -can- be gotten from the cave, even if it's with great difficulty. My motivation was the ability to get /at least one/ prize on their scroll, no matter what one they chose. More people having them, even if its only one ever, still helps, because there will be more people trading off second gens for those of us who do weird lines, like /balloon, probably for as little as whatever the "breeder" is having people raise for shards. I can see trading threads going nuts looking for specific breeds to raise for bonus points.. can you? I'm sorry, but at this time, I am unwilling to budge on dropping the price. People hated when I suggested that prices could move as low as 4 months for prizes.. it made it too easy. Mini games and raffles will likely make that much easier, but those are not the topic at this time. Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) The more I think about it, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that this suggestion might be better off without any dragons that are -only- available through the store. The point of this suggestion is to give an alternate means of getting dragons that are essentially unobtainable for some people. Other cool things that won't hurt that purpose were added, like potions that would do cool stuff. But prizes and old holidays, if put at the kind of prices Thu is insisting on, WILL hurt that core purpose of this suggestion. Sadly, I must agree. Sadly, because that means that I will not be able to use the store. ETA: I'm sorry, but at this time, I am unwilling to budge on dropping the price. People hated when I suggested that prices could move as low as 4 months for prizes.. it made it too easy. Would 6 (instead of 4) months be acceptable? Edited May 11, 2016 by NotBambi Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 If people want them fast, then I am happy to make it fast, but with the severe limit of only 2 of each sprite type/color. You could get 3-4 a year, but you will only have 2 of each color/type (not accounting for previous winners, who will not have their prizes count against their limit) Where if its 1-2 a year (implied 6-12 month prices) you can have unlimited. When this discussion came up before, unlimited was preferred. This is why that limit is still in place. So, would you rather have to deal with a limit, and only pay 3-4 months of points... or pay the higher cost, and get as many as you want, at a much slower pace? Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) If people want them fast, then I am happy to make it fast, but with the severe limit of only 2 of each sprite type/color. You could get 3-4 a year, but you will only have 2 of each color/type (not accounting for previous winners, who will not have their prizes count against their limit) Where if its 1-2 a year (implied 6-12 month prices) you can have unlimited. When this discussion came up before, unlimited was preferred. This is why that limit is still in place. So, would you rather have to deal with a limit, and only pay 3-4 months of points... or pay the higher cost, and get as many as you want, at a much slower pace? Sorry, long day. Does "3-4 a year, but you will only have 2 of each color/type" mean i.e. 2 Gold Shimmers and 2 Gold Tinsels or? Uh guess I got it. You're talking about the total limit, aren't you? Edited May 11, 2016 by NotBambi Share this post Link to post
Posted May 11, 2016 Sorry, long day. Does "3-4 a year, but you will only have 2 of each color/type" mean i.e. 2 Gold Shimmers and 2 Gold Tinsels or? 2 gold shims, 2 bronze, 2 silver... AND 2 of each color tin. allows for male/female of each type, or two males or females of each type. So all 12 in threeish years, opposed to too many years Share this post Link to post
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