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Thuban

Trader's Canyon

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... I didn't actually intend to order mine by how expensive they were.

 

I don't think old holidays should be more expensive than golds, for example. I'm undecided on golds versus prizes but would be fine with true rares being the most expensive things in the store. So, Cinnamin's list is fine by me, ordered as it is, except I think silvers should be grouped with golds and I'd tend to put her prize et al list next with old holidays third.

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... I didn't actually intend to order mine by how expensive they were.

 

I don't think old holidays should be more expensive than golds, for example. I'm undecided on golds versus prizes but would be fine with true rares being the most expensive things in the store. So, Cinnamin's list is fine by me, ordered as it is, except I think silvers should be grouped with golds and I'd tend to put her prize et al list next with old holidays third.

I'd be more:

 

Golds

Silvers

Old Holidays

Prizes

Coppers, Trios, Uncommons and unbreedable rares (Dinos, Chickens & Papers)

Commons

Blockers

 

But as Cinn says - prices determined by TJ.

 

And rarity varies. So why not have us all save our shards or whatever they end up being called, and while that sort of list is the GENERAL idea, when we are ready to spend, we go to the store and see what we can buy there today. TJ to determine what is up for sale and for how much. There's variations in RL stores, too. Wander the aisles and see what's around (Potions etc would probably be fixed price; this would just apply to eggs.) Like "Damn - gold tins are bit pricey today - maybe I will buy a silver instead...."

 

Just like a REAL store....

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Nope, all or nothing. Because TJ probably doesn't want more Prizes distributed, so they'd never show up.

 

While I would prefer that TJ set the prices, I do NOT trust him to give us what we want. He's too stubborn and set in his ways. To me, it's obvious that TJ doesn't like change.. otherwise we'd see more updates more often.

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Nope, all or nothing. Because TJ probably doesn't want more Prizes distributed, so they'd never show up.

 

While I would prefer that TJ set the prices, I do NOT trust him to give us what we want. He's too stubborn and set in his ways. To me, it's obvious that TJ doesn't like change.. otherwise we'd see more updates more often.

I think its less "stubborn and set in his ways" and more "doesn't play *anything* like his players play, so doesn't see the various problems".

 

Having said that, YES, we do need to be the ones to set at least general price guidelines, if we want to end up with something we can all live with. Because I really don't think TJ has any real concept of how the vast majority of his player-base actually plays...

 

As for what I'd have, for categories:

  • Special (CB Prizes and such)
  • Holidays (old and new)
  • Rares (Golds and Silvers, and any new ones)
  • Uncommons (Trios, Coppers, Xenos, maybe a few others. Not Blusangs, Blacks, Vines, or Stripes anymore)
  • Commons
  • Bonus Breeds

Basically, the vast majority of breeds would fall under "Commons", with added incentive to get the blockers via the Bonus. I personally think that the price of any common or uncommon needs to be fairly high, to strongly encourage people to get the eggs from the Biomes instead of just heading to the store. After all, if you want, say, a CB Pillow, you can either spend an hour or two stalking the 5 minute drops in stagnant blocker-filled Biomes while getting increasingly frustrated and calling TJ names for said frustration, or head straight to the store. Frankly, I would go straight for the store unless the price of the CB *in* the store was high enough to dissuade me. Until the stagnant biome issue is *fixed*, its far easier to head to the store to snag that general Common you need than to actually bother with the Biomes.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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I disagree with you on one thing cyradis4: putting the price of commons high to encourage cave searching...

First of all, if the bought eggs are going to count towards CB ratios, then there is no real need to make them too expensive. On the other hand, if they dont count to ratios (which I dont support), then yes, the price should be very high.

Second: cave caught are gonna be free, while store boughts not. Which means, those points you wasted on a common could have helped you get to that rare or rare uncommon in less time (for example, 3 days more before reaching that rarer breed, which doesnt seem much, but multiply it by 7 for example: 21 days, three weeks, almost a month, and this is getting the max points daily/weekly -without the bonus of course-). So, the prices doesnt have to be too expensive for the commons, just a bit. In fact, I can see far more people opting for uncommons than commons, even if the price of the commons is relatively cheap, because uncommons are the middle line: rare enough to be valuable, but common enough to be easy to get.

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Have no idea if this has been mentioned unsure.gif plus don't want to trawl through pages and pages,

Regarding holidays would there be any kind of restriction on what ones you could get? otherwise if you work for say 3 months to be able to purchase a Holiday i see 99.9% going for only one breed wink.gif especially at the end of year Holiday .

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Have no idea if this has been mentioned unsure.gif plus don't want to trawl through pages and pages,

Regarding holidays  would there be any kind of restriction on what ones you could get? otherwise if you work for say 3 months to be able to purchase a Holiday i see 99.9% going for only one breed  wink.gif especially at the end of year Holiday .

Supposedly, yes: 2 CBs for Christmas and Valentine's holidays (the usual scroll limit that TJ himself imposed).

Edited by Ruby Eyes

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The only restriction is the limits already in place. Sure, a lot of people are going to be going for that holly, but right now CB hollies are ridiculously underpopulated, so I don't see that that is a problem. And there are going to be plenty of people who are going to ignore the old holidays at first and save all their points to get a CB prize.

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Entering the "Trader's Canyon" IMHO just seems too complex. You have three main branches once you enter. When all this store idea really needs is the Orphan's Rest part. A place where you can see your weekly (cycle) points accumulated, your total points you have and all the eggs you can purchase. I am not opposed to the three proposed areas however.

 

The Bazaar and making potions just seems to detract from the main part of this game, which is getting collectables, all the dragons along with raising and breeding them. This is just a minor thing to me though.

 

The Ecology Management Agency / 10 Blocker bonus. This part just seems to add a lot more complexity to this idea however. For several reasons.

1) The cave itself already is designed to keep itself in balance. Sure having something in place to encourage more doesnt hurt, but it can be done in simpler ways than this.

2) The whole concept just seems un-natural to me. When you hear about groups banding together IRL, it is more to save rare or near extinct things. This is kinda reverse here in this idea having humans and dragons to band together to get rid of things that are super common ??

3) The complex nature of the whole thing. Having quests, having to look every cycle for the 10 most common, having X%, the 0.1 of point or collecting 10 for whole point.

 

The whole Ecology / 10 Blocker part for example can easily be replaced by:

Although with the truly underpopulated super commons, it would probably be better to have the store "pay" users to raise them (the equivalent of putting an item on clearance).  Since they're sitting around in the cave without enough people who want to raise them, it would make sense for the ratios for the store to literally pay people to take them away. (with the dragons unabandonable; as well as ideally unkillable and unreleasable for the time it takes them to stop counting for the ratios for obvious reasons)

Pokemonfan13 suggestion will naturally come up with the most common Blockers, without having to worry about an actual set number (like 10 suggested). Those that fall into the Negative price will accomplish the same thing. It will give players Shards for getting those eggs. It does away with the whole need to collect 10 or 0.1 point thing too. This suggestion will not work if prices are fixed though obviously.

 

Pricing:

I think all dragons not normally found in cave should be set/fixed prices.

 

CB Prizes, I prefer cost method 1. However I can easily see thousand or more showing up every year, so method 2 might even be better. That would mean twice as many showing up as method 1 especially for first couple years, but with limit it should stabilize out over time.

 

CB Old Holidays: agree with everything in OP with one minor addition. 1100 base price + add'l amount for every year as it gets older. Like say 100 more for every year. For example last years will be 1100, year before would be 1200. That would make the oldest holiday (Holly) be I think 1900 and will take another 2 mo's longer to get the oldest.

 

All others should be based on BOTH Rarity + Ratio.

The base price should be determined by its rarity. So for example the most rare like Gold/Silver would be set at the highest cost. With the most common set at lowest cost. I personally like 2000 down to -10. The ratio would than either subtract or add to that base cost depending on the caves need .. just like how they drop in cave now I would guess.

 

Ratio would only fluctuate max x% of the base rarity cost like say 10% just to keep it simple. SO.....

 

Gold/Silver = 2000 +/-200 depending on ratio

Most common = -10 +/-1 depending on ratio.

 

Or if you really want method that will help to control and maintain a balance to counteract any superficial rarity that players may add. It could be as high as 100%. SO...

 

Gold/Silver = 2000 +/-2000 depending on ratio

Most common = -10 +/-10 depending on ratio.

 

Of course cyradis4 made good point that maybe a lot would rather buy lots of commons in store if they are priced fairly low. My idea could contribute to that, which would make things worse in-cave. But I just think most will be saving their shards to get more rare dragons. Maybe only using store to get negative ones, which still should help out in-cave.

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I am glad to see the work on this idea and am thrilled to see the support and effort put into it and would like to thank the people who have put so much time and effort into helping to work on this. I'm not really a numbers person, so I'm not sure this really does or doesn't add anything to the conversation:

 

I "believe" the ratios are a combination of CBs and Bred Eggs. However, when people go to the "store", they are generally going to be purchasing CB versions of something. While a Gold is "rare", in game getting a bred gold isn't super hard (barring its mate be a new super common dragon, then it just takes a lot of effort, but isn't so much "rare"), but a CB Gold is orders of magnitude different in the players eyes. Although maybe not in the system. Would the pricing system be based on "CB Ratios" for Biome Droppers, or the bred + CB ratios?

 

I also think, at least until so many people get CB Prizes that getting 2G offspring is considered a "semi reasonably easy with some effort" trade, that having 2G prize offspring, if someone could pick the mate, might be something people would be willing to pay for. You could set up a bank of special dragons (like "Thuweds", although not "Thuweds", maybe a new family dynasty) or whomever Prize Dragons that are around the area able to "purchase" offspring. Perhaps they could have set mates, but perhaps the users could choose the mates. Or each "parent" has a limted option of mates it has. Not necessarily each "Dynasty Dragon" breeds with whomever you pick just cuz you got the $$$. I know many people just want a Prize x particular breed mate and that's it. They don't necessarily want the CB Prize, just that combo. Or perhaps another trader just "found" the rare offspring in the wild or while hunting or from their own coffers and is offering it up in the store.

 

With this, is it also possible that the Shop would allow us to "purchase" offspring from "rare" CBs or non dropping CBs (like hybrids, not unbreedables). I'm not talking Thuwed dragons. But if someone would rather just have a Hellhorse Offspring from a CB Hellhorse at a reduced price vs the CB Hellhorse itself, would that also be worth adding?

 

Or instead of a particular CB Holiday, a 2G offspring from a CB Holiday? I'm not saying every one of these would be great options, but they would be less expensive options and sometimes, people just want the offspring to something rare, not the super rare expensive item itself. Or they would rather have the 2G now and then work towards the CB later. These things would obviously be priced at a different tier that would be easier to reach.

 

Is something like this able to be considered, or is it just preferred to keep everything Caveborn only? Because since its a Traders Canyon, I'm not saying that its set up like a Dragon version of a Puppy Mill, but there may be NPC dragon hunters that are also "selling" rare offspring they found in the wild or from wherever. There could be a easy to explain reason for this. I just believe some people might like a 2G Option to something super rare and expensive vs the CB itself.

 

That might also help lessen the demand and pricing on the CBs and not make the general player base focused on a small handful of very expensive rare options when it first releases. Although I do completely understand that ideally, once enough of the super rare CBs get out into circulation, the "need or desire" for this may not warrant it being even in the store anymore.

 

ETA: Since the CB Hybrids may not be a "thing", is 2G offspring from such dragons a possible "thing"? I know many people would be very happy with that as an option. Or... has this already been discussed and I didn't see it and if so you can just ignore this post. Sorry if that is the case! But just something else to throw into the pricing structure to give "rare offspring" for sale at a reduced price vs its "super rare and expensive CB parent alternative" or "who is not a CB option at all via this store".

Edited by natayah

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At this time, I am not really considering adding a "trading marketplace" or anything like that. I really need to work out what kinks I can for whats already existing, before we add anything else to the mix.

 

 

Though honestly: I would be perfectly fine if tj decided to let the wilderness dragons play along by breeding their babies into the store at lower prices. My "wild born" babies are awesome, and I miss being able to find them. I got a couple silvers back when they would randomly breed.

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Trading marketplace? What's this mean? I couldn't find the context on the last 2 pages ...

 

 

I like natayah's idea of random near-impossible 2G offspring in the store. You basically get a paper with your dragon that claims it had this and that parent xd.png That would raise questions regarding their lineage though. Would the "parents" get a code/identity generated of their own? Or would these tiles just show the sprite with a randomly generated name, with no /view/ link on them?

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I think the Trading Market Thuban is referring to is natayah's idea of 2nd gen offspring from CB prizes and hybrids. Those are player owned so handling those 2nd gens through the store would be some sort of trading market.

 

I'm not opposed to an ingame trading market - rather than the current practice of the bulk of trading happening in the forums. However, I do think that's beyond the scope of this suggestion.

 

Though if I understood nat's suggestion, it wasn't to have eggs from actual players available in the store but to have eggs from "not really existing" CB hybrids and prizes in the store, and players could sign up to buy an egg, rather like we used to be able to sign up for Thuwed eggs. It's an interesting idea but could have issues. I don't think it would really work unless the parent dragons actually existed. Then comes the question of how many eggs per week from them and more questions. I completely understand Thuban not wanting to deal with the idea right now.

Edited by Fiona BlueFire

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Trading marketplace? What's this mean? I couldn't find the context on the last 2 pages ...

 

 

I like natayah's idea of random near-impossible 2G offspring in the store. You basically get a paper with your dragon that claims it had this and that parent xd.png That would raise questions regarding their lineage though. Would the "parents" get a code/identity generated of their own? Or would these tiles just show the sprite with a randomly generated name, with no /view/ link on them?

I think Thu might have misread natayah's post as suggesting trading. I sort of read it that way at first, too, although I think now that that is not her intent.

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Sorry I meant the store. But since it's theme is Traders Canyon, after Thu and others finish the more pressing matter of value levels and possible pricing..... I wanted to throw out that if the store wanted to offer a few 2G dragons in the store ...... it might be interesting to people per cheaper pricing than CB version, CB not available thru store or players may prefer a 2G sooner vs CB version later in so me circumstances.

 

And great logic isn't needed because with a world of NPC traders, anything could be there for valid reasons. Sorry if it was confusing. But this can be talked about later because the pricing is more urgent.

 

Ok back to hiding under rock...

 

And yes, the 2G offspring would come from dragons that are not owned by players. They would be like Thuweds or wild or NPC dragons. I know Thuweds are owned by TJ, but in our world and the way their offspring is automated for "Official Thuweds" inspired me. I don't think TJ wants to start offering their offspring via the store. But the store dragons would be kinda like that as a starting concept. And really, until the CBs are resolved, this idea needs to probably be shelved until the CB part is done or treated outside the scope of this.

 

Ok back to rock. ...

Edited by natayah

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If tj wanted to let wild dragons breed like they used to, then they could probably be added but at this time i am unwilling to work those kinks out.

 

 

Sorry the thred hasnt been getting much attention. I have a job now, and very little computer time.

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Still, I think you've got the right idea. We should focus on what the basic idea for the store is first and foremost. After it has been implemented, we can always suggest additions.

 

Also, since I promised to collect ideas for store items or their abilities, respectively, here's a list with the things I found (and some others I came up with while writing stuff down). Please bear in mind that I didn't put in the names of the items, as TJ will most likely use his own spin on things. Plus, not everything makes sense as a potion IMHO.

 

Potion / Item abilities suggested thus far:

- dissolving eggshells or removing the 24 hour penalty for vamp bites

- hatchy incubate and anti-incubate (slowing down growth)

- return one sprite to the sprite of a dress-up event or add the effect of one of the Valentine's Day potions

- exchanging one letter from a dragon's code

-gender-swaps (for dimorphic sprites only, maybe only for breeds with true dimorphism instead of di-posism? Allows for male blue hellfires or female green nebulas...) only available for dragons that have not yet been bred

- refusal prevention or refusal reset

- changing a dragon from one variety of a given breed to another (stripe color change, turn ridgewings or dorsals purple nor tan/red, ...)

- setting a pending description on the top of the queue

- any BSA in a bottle

- view AP eggs you've already caught and abandoned in a greyed-out fashion / with visible transparency/whatever

- cure or prevent sickness

- make UVs count twice for a given dragonet / make only every other UV count for a dragonet

- 12-hour-incubate (especially good for prizes or GoNs)

- enhance or decrease the chance for an egg to be the breed of one parent

- make two dragons refuse (for breeding mishaps)

- scroll-dividers

- trading messages (for teleports)

- allow for an Aegis to be enraged without killing anything

- bigger teleports (4+ eggs/hatchlings)

- de-aging (turn adults into hatchling sprites (while, technically, they're still adults)

- dragon grooming stuff or hatchling toys

- jukebox / hired minstrel(to play soundtrack like from Jolly Follies)

 

 

some other ideas by me:

- life-mate two dragons. When breeding them, no other dragons show up on the breeding page. (Should allow for true polygamy, though.)

- extra egg slot (without any extra hatchling slots), one-use only (although a permanent extra slot might be a good idea, too!)

- chance of a multi-clutch for the next breeding

- reduce any kind of cooldown by 24 hours

 

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- de-aging (turn adults into hatchling sprites (while, technically, they're still adults)

Isn't that just freezing? Why would people use this?

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Isn't that just freezing? Why would people use this?

I can't see the point myself - but it's the only way to make an adult into a hatchie, and some people might want to do that.... too late to freeze once they've grown up. If they decided they didn't like the lineage but wanted to keep the creature, sort of thing ?

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Kind of freezing after the fact. Or spaying/neuterizing. (I really don't want to go for breedable "hatchies", even if they are actually adults. After all, this site is supposed to be family friendly, isn't it?

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~snip

- changing a dragon from one variety of a given breed to another (stripe color change, turn ridgewings or dorsals purple nor tan/red, ...)

~snip

- de-aging (turn adults into hatchling sprites (while, technically, they're still adults)

~snip

I could be missing something but I think that the "only available for dragons that have not yet been bred" rule should apply to those two suggestions.

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I think something along the lines was being discussed, but I wasn't willing to copy&paste the whole discussion...

 

Of course, dragon-changing stuff needs to be used on dragons that haven't got any live/undead offspring.

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I could be missing something but I think that the "only available for dragons that have not yet been bred" rule should apply to those two suggestions.

Agree 100% !

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As I said, something like this has been discussed when the ideas came up. Plus, why make it dependent on "being bred" instead of "has no offspring"? The latter might be more to the point, although a hatchling with a "last bred date" might give a wrong impression, too...

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Main mechanics that need discussion:

Shards:

~ we have how they are earned down, but need to discuss whether raising blockers earns shards, or earns a discount toward buying things.

~ Weekly cap seemed to be preferred over daily.

 

 

 

Dragons:

~ Actual prices: find a way to base pricing so that it is not ratio OR rarity based - This is one of the single biggest things needing worked out.

 

I think we have mechanics down pat. Its the final details, pricing, mechanics and such that are slowing us down. Potions are not the focus atm (not a fan of a lot of those honestly).

 

 

If the weekly cap is say 300points / week, then potions would run anywhere from 10 points to 600.

 

 

This is where I will lose fans I think... Pricing.

In my mind, you should be able to get a couple dragons a week, if you arent spending the points on potions or saving for the more expensive things. I believe that existing rares NEED to be priced as the baseline (Golds and silvers should be around 7800 points (6 months). My question is: what type/how many dragons when limited to ONLY cb trades are fair for cb metals. Ignoring rarity and ONLY looking at the cb trades, my metals generally trade off for 6-8 hatchys, but when im trading for eggs, im limited by how much I can hold.. so me, I want to price everything not gold, not silver that is obtainable in cave as a percentage of what the metals go for. (in this way, you guys get to go through breed by breed... ignoring ratios, ignoring percieved rarities and make your own pricing system, where GOLD is the baseline for everything.)

 

So with my example number of 7800 (26 weeks * 300 = gold) everything officially common and uncommon would fall between a few days worth of points, and 6 months of points.

 

The special dragons (holidays, prizes) obviously are worth more.

 

 

(PLEASE NOTE: I was issued this challenge awhile back of working out a way to price thigs not based on either rarity OR ratios in order to make this work. Help me do legwork, or leave it up to me to assign prices to pitch, up to you guys. This allows for TJ to maintain his secrets, prevents the market from being used as the gold standard for economy, as you guys, the traders who actually play this game are coming up with percieved rarities. This is the main reason I have stuck to time references rather than prices: most commons and uncommons should be showing up between a few days of points and 6 months.. )

 

 

 

 

 

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