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Thuban

Trader's Canyon

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You guys aren't limited to just potions. Consumable items can be a thing. For example, I had the thought of "cakes". Foods are good

 

Hatchy "incubate": These cakes provide a nutritional boost to help hatchlings grow faster (either by dropping the v/uv required for something to grow to a lower threshold (like forcing s2) or by removing a day..im fairly flexible.

Meat Cake, Insect Cake, Plant cake: Specially formulated for meat eaters, plant eaters or bug eaters. (

"kitchen sink" cake: filled with a bit of everything. can be fed to any dragon for a boost.

 

 

Dense cakes: These high calorie cakes slow a hatchling down (take a day longer to grow). Single cake or individual food type cakes, doesnt matter. Its cake.

 

Explanation: Since v/uv/c are considered "food" and more food helps things grow, and too much can make you sick... it made sense to provide specialized food types to give growing hatchlings a boost.

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Oh oh, what about a "Festive" potion, or "Spooky Potion" Which turns the dragon into it's Christmas/Halloween form? It probably would last only a few days, or maybe a week. The text coudl be "After you dragon drinks this potion, it is filled with the Halloween/Christmas Spirit.

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Some dragons have had more than one dressup for a given holiday, some have had none. That would have to be taken into account for that potion.

 

Thu, I wouldn't think it's a good idea to have multiple items for the same thing based on the food of the recipient. Think of how annoying it would be to accidentally buy the wrong one... Plus some dragons don't have their food listed, which makes things harder. Can't we assume the shopkeeper has some special formula that works well for all dragons? Or we could assume that we bought that cake for the dragon we give it to, so we bought the right one, even though in the store as we see it there's only one kind.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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Remember all those cute little graphics from the V'day 2015/Matchmaking event? Those graphics are already made and on the server, so why not reuse them for the store?

 

Crystals, piles of Gold, Food, Jewelry.. even Pets, Potatoes and Princesses.. all sorts of stuff that could be enchanted and purchased. Not to mention all the other cute graphics from previous events.

 

Recycling those graphics would solve the problem of artists not having time to make new graphics. Plus, lots of them are super cute and deserve to be seen more often.

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I think I like this idea considering it's an even playing experience across the board. Anyone can do it, although I do agree people need a bronze trophy first to make sure they know how to dragcave.

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I just had another idea that I don't think would ever be added, but I'd like to share it anyway:

 

Ink of Illiteraciy: Change a digit of a dragon code of your choice (only your own dragons, of course) into another one. Would obviously only work if the resulting code wasn't taken yet. Would be ridiculously expensive (7 years' worth of shards.)

(I was just thinking how nice it would be to change vEnYM's code into vEnOM xd.png)

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Remember all those cute little graphics from the V'day 2015/Matchmaking event? Those graphics are already made and on the server, so why not reuse them for the store?

 

Crystals, piles of Gold, Food, Jewelry.. even Pets, Potatoes and Princesses.. all sorts of stuff that could be enchanted and purchased. Not to mention all the other cute graphics from previous events.

 

Recycling those graphics would solve the problem of artists not having time to make new graphics. Plus, lots of them are super cute and deserve to be seen more often.

Where would you PUT them ?

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Where would you PUT them ?

In the Store.. on the Store shelves.. on a Shopping list... I dunno exactly, lol.

 

They would be the 'link' you click on to buy an item from the store. They would represent the potions and/or other items available to purchase.

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Where would you PUT them ?

I'd like to have them as "stickers" or "tatoos" for our scroll. We could also use the smaller icons as tagging markers for dragons, like this:

user posted image

 

We would just need a column for the icons to go into. The larger icons could be used as stickers for the rest of your scroll, if you choose?

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Any artsy bits that need made, will be focused on at a later date. At this point, I'd like to redirect away from items, and go back to figuring out what is left about the main store that needs worked out.

________________________________________________________________

 

Pricing was a concern. Pricing is a thing that I dont feel we "as users" can really fine tune. I had it pointed out to me that both rarity and ratio based pricing comes with the drawback of having the ability to screw with normal trading rates (as prices applied to eggs, would give a "specific" value to specific breeds, and thats something that isnt entirely desired).

 

So, in effort to get some idea on how to handle various forms of pricing, I need ideas.

 

Rarity specific: The problem with doing this is that it DOES change the trading aspect of the game. Those things viewed as rares, that are indeed "common" would have to be priced as such in the store. By pricing it in the store at the rarity price, that rarity would be applied to the trade economy, and would make it harder to get those rare level trades you are used to, for your "common". If something is easier to get in store, than from the cave, then it does change this store from being supplimental, to "base part of obtaining eggs". I do want to try to keep the store from being the main way to obtain eggs.

 

Ratio Specific Pricing: Same as above. It applies a specific price to what things are worth, which may be both good, and bad for our existing trade economy.

 

Because of my objection to both styles of pricing, I have yet another insane idea to pitch:

 

User Driven Pricing: Basing on how you, the users view both rarities and ratios, I would challenge you guys to come up with a sort for the breeds based on how common/rare you guys view CBs ONLY as a whole. This would be a complicated system to set up... a stupidly difficult one honestly, BUT this helps me give control of the pricing to you guys, the ones who play this game, without possibly ruining the established trade economy.

 

With these things in mind, step one requires a baseline. Im not ready to tackle sorting breeds into groups yet, so PLEASE dont start sorting them in this thread. Not yet. You may, by all means start building your lists off site so you are ready when I am. I'll likely start a channel in the IRC soon, for those who are interested in chatting about things related to this thread.

 

________________________________________

All of the options above need as a starting point is a basic grouping of how you guys view rarity. How many price ranges do you want? Please list based on each type of pricing (Rarity, Ratio, User Driven)

  • Do we fine tune the price blocks? (blocker/very common, common, uncommon, rare, holiday, prize) 6 groups
  • Do we go more vague? (Common/uncommon as one price block, Rare, holiday, prize) 4 groups (removes ability to earn an egg in as little as a few days but stays more stable over time)
  • Something else?

 

 

Rarity: Vague pricing. Keeps things more stable over time.

 

Ratio: Vague pricing.

 

User Driven: Fine tune, to whatever extent we can. Im talking to my husband about setting up some easy ways to collect data from as many people as possible, for how to sort the breeds. Be patient, I'm not great at that kind of geekery tongue.gif (looking into google forms for that. Hes willing to deal with crunching the data, I just have to set it up)

 

 

 

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My concern about rarity=price, is if some other suggestions are introduced prior/after this one.

 

Example-

The migration suggestion: If species start to migrate, they will become harder to find in the cave, which will falsely raise the price. But then, once they start to come back, then the prices should fall again.

 

What if we went with the original, official rarity at the time of the dragons release? This way prices would be more steady, and users trying to mess with the ratios/prices won't do much, since the rarity is set at a permanent place?

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Thuban, I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into what you're trying to get users to give input into, but reading your post made me think of something. What if, instead of the trader posting a specific price the user made an offer. X shards for Y egg. The backstage prices would be set one way, probably by ratio influenced by population (maybe the same algorithms the site uses to determine what drops in the cave now?) but the users won't see that. They'll decide they want something and input what they're willing to pay. The site takes the "ideal price" that is the outcome of that algorithm and spins an RNG to determine whether it will accept the offer. Chance of acceptance would be based on how far off the "ideal price" the offer is. You might get really lucky and get that gold for a bargain, or you might not. The "ideal price" could be recalculated say, once a day during the daily maintenance or whatever.

 

This idea should in no way stop people from doing what you're asking, but maybe could be something we also kick around and see if it's a sound idea.

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Fi, that sounds like a royal pain in the rear end to me. Yes, there's a chance that you could get the egg you want at a lower price, but there's also the much higher chance that you put in a number that's rather higher than the secret price, and so you get ripped off (because of course the trader would accept more shards). You're setting things up so that nobody knows how much a fair deal really is, so nobody has any idea what kind of number they should be entering, which leads to rather more anxiety than this kind of thing really should have.

 

And it seems that it would have to either limit the number of times you can try to buy an egg each day or have the shopkeeper algorithm change based on how many times you tried that day to be less and less likely to give a good deal, otherwise people would just sit there and plug in lowball numbers trying to get the gold cheap.

 

Plus, it would be a very strong temptation for people to gather data to try to figure out the secret prices (because even if they change, they can't change all that much or it really would be chaos), and I'm pretty sure that would be against the "reverse engineering" aspect of the ToS.

 

It just rubs me the wrong way on so many levels, I hope I've managed to explain at least some of the things that bother me about it. Personally, I'd rather have something simple, like the prices being attached to rarity or ratios, even if it does change the trading economy some.

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Hmm, valid points. I just was trying to think of a way the prices could be hidden or more like bartering.

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I wouldn't mind something that is actually like bartering. (although it still seems more complex than this really should be) But bartering usually involves the seller giving an inflated price as the starting point, with the buyer trying to bring it down to something reasonable. The inflated starting point is the key, because you at least have something to base your offers on. What you outlined involved shooting darts in the dark, with absolutely nothing to base your offer on (other than user-gathered data, which would likely break the ToS).

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Thuban, I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into what you're trying to get users to give input into, but reading your post made me think of something. What if, instead of the trader posting a specific price the user made an offer. X shards for Y egg. The backstage prices would be set one way, probably by ratio influenced by population (maybe the same algorithms the site uses to determine what drops in the cave now?) but the users won't see that. They'll decide they want something and input what they're willing to pay. The site takes the "ideal price" that is the outcome of that algorithm and spins an RNG to determine whether it will accept the offer. Chance of acceptance would be based on how far off the "ideal price" the offer is. You might get really lucky and get that gold for a bargain, or you might not. The "ideal price" could be recalculated say, once a day during the daily maintenance or whatever.

 

This idea should in no way stop people from doing what you're asking, but maybe could be something we also kick around and see if it's a sound idea.

Im about 90% sure that option was actually brought up at one point in the thread. PF covered my initial concerns about it, but "name your price" could be an option. However, I still would need a baseline to base the prices on. And an idea of how many price groups we will need.

 

 

 

 

 

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Personally, I think we need at least those different price groups:

  1. Prizes. Probably with a small variation for each kind (gold > silver > bronze)
  2. Holidays. Maybe with some variation, the older the more expensive. Or maybe not. wink.gif
  3. Golds.
  4. Silvers and Coppers? Or would we need two groups for those?
  5. Uncommons. (Yes, I know that, technically, Coppers are supposed to be uncommon. Believe me, I know.) Would probably consist of Trios, Blusangs, Pyrals (?), Lunars and Celestials.
  6. Slightly Uncommons.
  7. Commons.
  8. Very Commons.
I really think that golds need their very own price that doesn't depend on the price of silvers. *shrugs*

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1. I do NOT want user set prices

2. I do NOT want a random number generator involved

 

Both are VERY BAD ideas. The user set prices are why the trade market is so unbalanced. Supply vs. Demand is the issue, but when a tiny minority is in control of the Supply, there needs to be a control factor added in so that folk aren't getting ripped off. The Store will take some of that control away from the minority, putting the market back on an even keel.

 

As for a RNG, that's ALWAYS a bad idea. Random is no one's friend and even when you get lucky it's not realistic. The only time a RNG should be used it in RP and choosing the winner for a giveaway.

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Rarity specific: The problem with doing this is that it DOES change the trading aspect of the game. Those things viewed as rares, that are indeed "common" would have to be priced as such in the store. By pricing it in the store at the rarity price, that rarity would be applied to the trade economy, and would make it harder to get those rare level trades you are used to, for your "common". If something is easier to get in store, than from the cave, then it does change this store from being supplimental, to "base part of obtaining eggs". I do want to try to keep the store from being the main way to obtain eggs.

 

Ratio Specific Pricing: Same as above. It applies a specific price to what things are worth, which may be both good, and bad for our existing trade economy.

 

Because of my objection to both styles of pricing, I have yet another insane idea to pitch:

 

User Driven Pricing: Basing on how you, the users view both rarities and ratios, I would challenge you guys to come up with a sort for the breeds based on how common/rare you guys view CBs ONLY as a whole. This would be a complicated system to set up... a stupidly difficult one honestly, BUT this helps me give control of the pricing to you guys, the ones who play this game, without possibly ruining the established trade economy.

 

With these things in mind, step one requires a baseline. Im not ready to tackle sorting breeds into groups yet, so PLEASE dont start sorting them in this thread. Not yet. You may, by all means start building your lists off site so you are ready when I am. I'll likely start a channel in the IRC soon, for those who are interested in chatting about things related to this thread.

 

________________________________________

All of the options above need as a starting point is a basic grouping of how you guys view rarity. How many price ranges do you want? Please list based on each type of pricing (Rarity, Ratio, User Driven)

  • Do we fine tune the price blocks? (blocker/very common, common, uncommon, rare, holiday, prize) 6 groups
  • Do we go more vague? (Common/uncommon as one price block, Rare, holiday, prize) 4 groups (removes ability to earn an egg in as little as a few days but stays more stable over time)
  • Something else?

 

Rarity: Vague pricing. Keeps things more stable over time.

 

Ratio: Vague pricing.

 

User Driven: Fine tune, to whatever extent we can. Im talking to my husband about setting up some easy ways to collect data from as many people as possible, for how to sort the breeds. Be patient, I'm not great at that kind of geekery tongue.gif (looking into google forms for that. Hes willing to deal with crunching the data, I just have to set it up)

Meh... Rarity is something that wasn't used so far. We do not know it. Ratios and User Driven, we are kind of used to but aren't really that successful, mostly epic fails. I would prefer Rarity specific, just not sure we will have a chance at that.

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Personally, I think we need at least those different price groups:

Prizes. Probably with a small variation for each kind (gold > silver > bronze)

Holidays. Maybe with some variation, the older the more expensive. Or maybe not. wink.gif

Golds.

Silvers and Coppers? Or would we need two groups for those?

Uncommons. (Yes, I know that, technically, Coppers are supposed to be uncommon. Believe me, I know.) Would probably consist of Trios, Blusangs, Pyrals (?), Lunars and Celestials.

Slightly Uncommons.

Commons.

Very Commons.

I really think that golds need their very own price that doesn't depend on the price of silvers. *shrugs*

I think your list is maybe a bit too complex...

 

1. 'Specials'. Here enters prizes (this then are subcategorized by "color": gold > silver > bronze) and holidays (there is no real reason to put a price on them for age as it is way too arbitrary). This may or may not be more expensive than "rares".

2. Rare. Golds and silvers and any other thing that can be categorized as rare, by "natural" means (I mean, that is, inherently rare, not user rare). The smallest group I have to say.

3. Uncommon. This one ranges from uncommon rare to slightly uncommon, which is trios, the coppers, blusang, xenowyrms, blacks, vines, and many, many others.

4. Common. The largest group, composed of normal commons like the glory drakes, to caveblocker common like the nocturnes.

 

This way is more simple, though if it is strictly neccessary, we can divide the commons in "commons" and "blockers". I dont see the neccessity on that, of course, but...

Edited by pederino

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If something is easier to get in store, than from the cave, then it does change this store from being supplimental, to "base part of obtaining eggs". I do want to try to keep the store from being the main way to obtain eggs.

I think a balance is necessary with a feature like this one. If anything is easier to get in the cave than in the store, why would anybody use the store?

 

That said, I think "rarity-based" would be fine. I've always been a proponent of the idea that when TJ decides how "rare" a breed should be, that should affect how easy it is to get a dragon of that kind, not the physical number of that breed in existence. So, if players want a world with tons of Neotropicals and not very many Mints, we're allowed that.

 

Of course, then you get the problem of ratios. If a breed is in high demand and is substantially easier to buy from the shop than to grab from the cave, many people will buy them, and then suddenly there are fewer in the cave, and fewer being bred.

 

I kind of like this, but it would definitely make the store a primary way of getting eggs.

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I don't think the store will ever be the primary way to get eggs. Sure, for rare eggs, this might become true. But in order to afford those, you'll need to raise lots of eggs that you got by other means - or you simply won't be able to afford an egg from the shop.

 

I think your list is maybe a bit too complex...

 

1. 'Specials'. Here enters prizes (this then are subcategorized by "color": gold > silver > bronze) and holidays (there is no real reason to put a price on them for age as it is way too arbitrary). This may or may not be more expensive than "rares".

2. Rare. Golds and silvers and any other thing that can be categorized as rare, by "natural" means (I mean, that is, inherently rare, not user rare). The smallest group I have to say.

3. Uncommon. This one ranges from uncommon rare to slightly uncommon, which is trios, the coppers, blusang, xenowyrms, blacks, vines, and many, many others.

4. Common. The largest group, composed of normal commons like the glory drakes, to caveblocker common like the nocturnes.

 

This way is more simple, though if it is strictly neccessary, we can divide the commons in "commons" and "blockers". I dont see the neccessity on that, of course, but...

Actually, since we're talking about vastly different prices for prizes (around 6 months of saving up), golds (maybe around the same amount, maybe not?) and holidays (around 2 months of saving up), I don't see how we can put them in one category. Another issue is gold vs. silver, for golds seem to be worth 3+ silvers at the moment, which would probably need to be reflected by their in-store prices.

 

Personally, I agree that we don't need different prices for different holiday breeds that depend on the age of said breed. But since quite a few people argue for just that kind of pricing system, I felt like at least mentioning it. Maybe we don't even need to distinguish between common and very common, either. Just give "sales prices" for underpopulated breeds. (50% off? Buy one, get one for free? Handing out hatchlings or incu-hatchable eggs instead of 7-day eggs?). Something similar could be done for a combined uncommon group, where the rarest of uncommons, where each breed in the category is given a multiplier.

Edited by olympe

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I don't think the store will ever be the primary way to get eggs. Sure, for rare eggs, this might become true. But in order to afford those, you'll need to raise lots of eggs that you got by other means - or you simply won't be able to afford an egg from the shop.

 

 

Actually, since we're talking about vastly different prices for prizes (around 6 months of saving up), golds (maybe around the same amount, maybe not?) and holidays (around 2 months of saving up), I don't see how we can put them in one category. Another issue is gold vs. silver, for golds seem to be worth 3+ silvers at the moment, which would probably need to be reflected by their in-store prices.

 

Personally, I agree that we don't need different prices for different holiday breeds that depend on the age of said breed. But since quite a few people argue for just that kind of pricing system, I felt like at least mentioning it. Maybe we don't even need to distinguish between common and very common, either. Just give "sales prices" for underpopulated breeds. (50% off? Buy one, get one for free? Handing out hatchlings or incu-hatchable eggs instead of 7-day eggs?). Something similar could be done for a combined uncommon group, where the rarest of uncommons, where each breed in the category is given a multiplier.

Yeah, I put it that way since they dont really follow the rules of DC (prizes and holidays). And about the golds and silvers... you see, I have seen far more golds than silvers here (in fact, just a few minutes ago, I saw a gold in the forest, but I have over a year since the last silver). I think I have seen 5 golds after the biomes were entered, but only 2 or 3 silvers (I didnt catch any, of course, but oh well), so I dont think the difference between gold and silver is so big, its just user driven, like most prices.

Though I really like the idea of discounts for really common breeds.

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In my opinion olympe maybe has too many categories and pederino too few. I agree that holidays don't really need to be more expensive the older they are. Christmas and Valentines eggs are limited by CB limits anyway and Halloweens have always been "as many as you can get your hands on" -why should we care if someone wants to spend their shards on lots of Pumpkins? And the older breeds are the ones we most want to see new blood for.

 

As for the categories, how about:

1. Specials -prizes.

2. Holidays

3. Golds and Silvers and anything else intended to be rare and hard to obtain. (such as Papers and similar?)

4. Uncommons, including Coppers. Silvers and Coppers are not in the same league regarding availability and ease of capture.

5. Commons

6. Super commons. The idea for discounts on these is a good one. I don't think people will tend to spend their shards on something that's so readily available in the cave unless they want a cave tag on it for something but we do need to encourage people to raise more of them.

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Am I the only player that wants to go back to a Gold standard, rather than a Prize standard? Prize dragons have disrupted trading for way too long, and the only way to fix that is for LOTS more Prizes to be added to the Cave.

 

Anything that TJ determines as rare should be the most expensive things in the Store and take the longest to earn. Prizes should be relatively CHEAP in order to get more into the breeding pool. Because as long as that tiny minority of Prize owners control trading, the market will continue to be unbalanced. Only when we get back on a Gold standard, will the trade market settle down and allow everyone to trade again... for FAIR prices.

 

My suggested divisions.. prices determined by TJ..

Golds

Old Holidays and Silvers

Prizes, Coppers, Trios and unbreedable rares (Dinos, Chickens & Papers)

Uncommons

Commons

Blockers

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