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Thuban

Trader's Canyon

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Query..

Is it set in stone that normal cavedropped dragons will be available in the store?

 

Yes. However, what was decided on over the course of the thread is NOT how I wanted to see it work, at all. I wanted to see the prizes and other rare things as the main store, but also have a small selection of "catchable" caveborns " also offered. Other people wanted /every/ egg available, instead of relying on chance to see specific breeds. Sometimes.. you really need a cb that doesnt have a specific biome attached to it..

 

Some lineages just arent possible to checker on account of the biomes not working out well.

 

Red copper male + Blusang female would not produce red coppers. However, a store bought blusang would have NO biome tie (cave tag, neutral), which makes THAT lineage possible, where it wouldnt have been before.

Female nebs + blue coppers

Female horses + red or brown coppers (i think?)

 

 

Special dragons: I do not believe the CBs themselves have ratios (prizes, hybrids specifically) as they are limited to a specific set of numbers (however many tj hands out). The bred ones though, those do indeed have their own ratios, to control how they breed. Bred prizes arent rares, usually. They breed like commons and have for a long time (at least, my own lines have been really reliable, I tend to breed more prizes than balloons from my lines... and balloons were blockers when I started collecting the /prize lines). Looking in the hatcheries, you are as likely to see groups of them, as you are "common" breeds.

 

I am not against letting people buy as many of them as they want to save up for, at all. I am against making them dirt cheap, especially cb hybrids, as those are a thing that TJ had said specifically he didnt want (but i do, so im compromising and making them stupidly expensive). I've been a supporter of it being reasonable to afford 2 prizes a year without it having to eat every single point earned. Its still getting them into peoples hands, where as of this time.. its NOT POSSIBLE to get the cbs.

 

I personally want to see it possible to save up for 2 prizes AND (a holiday or two), or 6-8 holidays if no prizes are picked PER YEAR. But, its still going to take some time to save up for the big purchases though. There isnt any "instant gratification" here, outside of immediately getting the egg/item you are after once you can afford to. Save for a few days, theres cheap things to buy. Save for a year.. and theres tons of options to choose from. Ignore the existence of the store altogether... and eventually, a person could lock themselves on nothing but cb prizes. <~~~My views on this weren't well received, and so I chose to specifically not use specific numbers or limits for my own explanations for things for MOST of the thread. Now that im comfortable with whats been fleshed out, since those original discussions, im happy to reconsider, to an extent.

 

 

As for your last paragraph: That's your opinion... I am trying to help fix it, even if my way isnt quite the same as your ideal way tongue.gif

Edited by Thuban

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Well, the problem is with some very hard-to-get dragons, like golds. Even after now 6.5 years of playing (okay, in about 2.something weeks), I still need to catch my first CB gold. (I've got two that were gifted to me by amazing people, though.) I'd love to be able to fill up to 2 CB adults of each gender. Which I won't ever be able to do, knowing my reflexes. Considering same set of reflexes and a lack of luck and/or knowing guys who know guys, I won't even be able to trade for them.

 

So, yes, I think adding in-cave dragons to the store is an important feature. Of course, the prices need to reflect rarity, and if a CB gold will cost as much as a CB prize, I'll probably still get myself those missing two CB golds. As long as the prices represent the breeds' ratios and it will still take effort/collecting currency over a long period of time, it won't even hurt the in-cave ratios in a noticeable way.

 

Of course, this means that some of the have-nots will actually get their hands on the occasional CB gold (or whatever) - an occasional CB gold the usual suspects with perfect internet, reflexes, luck and determination will not be able to add to their hoard or gift to their friends. But isn't that exactly what you are hoping for - that the gap between the haves and have-nots will lessen?

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

That being said, back to the topics at hand. wink.gif

 

I think that a CB prize should, indeed, cost about 1 year's worth of shards, not counting possible bonus points.

A CB gold maybe a little less than that, about 6 to 9 months worth of shards? CB silver should be less than that, I think, maybe around 4-6 months worth of shards.

 

Now, CB holidays I'm wary of. I feel that it should be possible to buy 1-2 CB holidays of each kind (Valentine, Halloween and Winter) each year. (More likely 2, to be honest.) Which would price them at around 2 months worth of collecting shards. It's debatable whether all holidays should cost the same, or whether older holidays should be more expensive, but I feel that they should cost about the same. *shrugs*

 

Regarding holiday limits, I'm not sure that sticking with the current scroll limits is needed. First of all, the amount of holiday dragons you can buy per year is limited overall. Second, holiday dragons are hardly affected by ratios, unless it's their breeding week - and with a guaranteed egg during that time, I dare say that ratios are not really an issue for holiday dragons. So, what if someone decides to buy 6 CB hollies a year and nothing but? Sure, it means someone will be able to purebreed hollies, but so what? What if most players choose to invest in 6 CB hollies a year? Well, they won't buy anything that's really affected by ratios (CB rares, prizes who still lose out on breeding success if there are too many of them). The price for holly offspring will go down - but is that such a bad thing?

 

Of course, there's the option of a compromise by (maybe) doubling scroll limits for CB holidays a year after their release so that people can buy a 3rd and 4th of their favorites. Maybe numbers 3 and 4 would come at a higher price, about 1.5 to 2 times the original price so people are discouraged from buying more than 2 of them? Of, if you consider going the "no limits" route, why not increase the price for a CB holiday by a certain factor with every single bought holiday of that breed? Numbers one and two would cost 1.0 times the usual amount, #3 1.2 times as much, #4 1.44 times as much, #5 1.728 times as much - and so on. Exponential growth is a great deterrent IMHO.

 

Regarding blockers, I think that a day worth of points would do the trick already. Underpopulated breeds could even go for free - or for a symbolical price of 1 shard. Commons, maybe 2-5 days, uncommons (trio, copper) around 8 weeks (maybe)? I have a really hard time assigning any kind of value to them because I so rarely see them. :/

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Ideas for items:

Love Medaillon: Can be given to a dragon so they don't refuse the next x mates you attempt to breed them with.

Potion of Forgiveness: Resetting a single refusal...

Potion of Alternatives (expensive): Allows the player to change one dragon from alt to non-alt (only for regular blacks, vines and undines, purple ridgewings, purple dorsals)

Splash of Color (cheap): Allows the player change the color of one particular dragon (only nebulas, lunars and stripes, tan ridgewings, red dorsals, glory drakes, sunrise/sunset dragons)

Ordinary Potion (very cheap): Changes an alt (undine, black, vine) to a regular dragon.

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Well, TJ himself sticks to 2 CB holidays for christmas and valentine's, so I guess the Trader should also say "no" if you already have your 2 Hollies.

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Well, TJ himself sticks to 2 CB holidays for christmas and valentine's, so I guess the Trader should also say "no" if you already have your 2 Hollies.

Yes. Existing limits apply, and have applied this entire time tongue.gif Halloweens are exempt from the rules.

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Well if we consider TJ09 as a mystical being and is god, the Good trader believes in god and would not want to defy this deity. SO two should be the limit.

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If already catchable dragons will be sold in the store, I guess I'll have to live with it. I personally doubt I'd ever buy a single one, but I won't swear to it.. circumstances change over time and this would be no exception.

 

Since you're willing to put your own personal goals out there, I'll state mine too.. I am NOT trying to be greedy (just complete my collection) and once I meet my goals, I'd probably just ignore the store unless some special something came up at a later date. I want to acquire the following caveborn dragons..

1 male and 1 female Gold Tinsel

1 male and 1 female Silver Tinsel

1 male and 1 female Bronze Tinsel

1 male and 1 female Gold Shimmerscale

1 male and 1 female Silver Shimmerscale

1 male and 1 female Bronze Shimmerscale

1 male and 1 female Holly

.. At this time, I'm not even sure if I want any cb ALTs or Hybrids.. and I already have all of the other past Holidays. I think I'd be happy with just 2 of each prize dragon, but I'm in favor of no limits on them. Why? Because some other player might want more of them.. and I might change my mind later. And since some current Prize owners already have 2 Prize dragons, I think it's only fair.. and I've nothing against those current prize owners getting more too.

 

What it all boils down to, is that I think it's blatantly unfair to EVERYONE that no other players can currently have 'special' dragons. Those 'special' dragons changed the entire game and created a hostile trading environment for everyone. When caveborn Gold and Silver dragons were the ultimate want, no one really felt like they were unobtainable.. because you could always get lucky and catch your own. But that is a 'never happen' situation with the 'special' dragons, because they do not drop in the Cave.. EVER.

 

As for past Holidays.. I'm for sticking with the 2 caveborns per scroll limit for Winter and Valentine dragons. I just want 2 caveborn Hollies because I wasn't here for their release, but I was for everything else. I'm not sure about cb Halloweens.. should they be available in the store? They're already unlimited, so it's just a matter of how many you can manage to catch or trade for each Halloween. I've already got 6 or 8 of all of them and I don't think I want any more. But others love them, so if they want more, why not?

 

Edit to add: I'm not a religious person, but I find speaking of TJ as a god offensive.

Edited by Cinnamin Draconna

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<snips for ease>

 

If already catchable dragons will be sold in the store, I guess I'll have to live with it. I personally doubt I'd ever buy a single one, but I won't swear to it.. circumstances change over time and this would be no exception.

 

Then you will have nothing to stop you from saving up points for the big purchases (unless an item or potion catches your eye, but most of those will be like 1 day of points tops..)

 

Since you're willing to put your own personal goals out there, I'll state mine too.. I am NOT trying to be greedy (just complete my collection) and once I meet my goals, I'd probably just ignore the store unless some special something came up at a later date. I want to acquire the following caveborn dragons..

1 male and 1 female Gold Tinsel

1 male and 1 female Silver Tinsel

1 male and 1 female Bronze Tinsel

1 male and 1 female Gold Shimmerscale

1 male and 1 female Silver Shimmerscale

1 male and 1 female Bronze Shimmerscale

1 male and 1 female Holly

 

What I had said up there isnt personal goals, so much as "what i would like to be able to allow people to do in a years time" (seems i missed that identifier in my post, will edit). I think one prize a year is too expensive, but ther were a lot of people that believed it shouldnt be any cheaper, because it would take value away from the original winners. I.. think its been long enough that the prizes should starty being more easily obtained, especialy since raffles are not a thing.

What you are asking for fits the limitations put in place.. at 2 of each type AND dealing with holiday limits.. you just stated wanting exactly what the limitations in place would give you. My ideals, you would meet that goal in less than three years. Using the one a year limit that was pushed.. possibly 14 years (since every point would have to go into prizes to get them all). That is unreasonable to me. And should be to just about everyone else...

 

What it all boils down to, is that I think it's blatantly unfair to EVERYONE that no other players can currently have 'special' dragons. Those 'special' dragons changed the entire game and created a hostile trading environment for everyone. When caveborn Gold and Silver dragons were the ultimate want, no one really felt like they were unobtainable.. because you could always get lucky and catch your own. But that is a 'never happen' situation with the 'special' dragons, because they do not drop in the Cave.. EVER.

 

Um.. that is exactly what this post has been trying to fix. Even though its not instant.. it does put those dragons into ANYONES hands that decides they want them... over time, without pitting people against each other (cave hunting) or relying on raffles to win.

 

As for past Holidays.. I'm for sticking with the 2 caveborns per scroll limit for Winter and Valentine dragons. I just want 2 caveborn Hollies because I wasn't here for their release, but I was for everything else. I'm not sure about cb Halloweens.. should they be available in the store? They're already unlimited, so it's just a matter of how many you can manage to catch or trade for each Halloween. I've already got 6 or 8 of all of them and I don't think I want any more. But others love them, so if they want more, why not?

 

At no point has there even been the option to have more than two cbs of the holidays. Halloweens have been exempt from the scroll limits. THIS IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. All existing limitations that exist on this site, will stay in place.

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I'm definitely glad that cave-droppable eggs will be included in the store. Although I would like a CB Holly, of which I have none, I would honestly probably use my shards to buy more CB Royal Blues. How much should CB commons cost, though? I hesitate to put numbers out there myself, but it's something I've wondered about.

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I think CB dragons in t he store is good. Otherwise may as well call it the Prize Vendor store. The idea behind it is for it to have something for everyone and repeat use. Not cater to a select group of people. (sounds familiar)

 

/still wants a Refusal Reset potion of some sort

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I think CB dragons in t he store is good. Otherwise may as well call it the Prize Vendor store. The idea behind it is for it to have something for everyone and repeat use. Not cater to a select group of people. (sounds familiar)

 

/still wants a Refusal Reset potion of some sort

I want CB commons in there, too. Sometimes I can go days looking for things like CB balloons, RBs or greys - just sheer bad luck, and it could save so much effort BUYING a few laugh.gif

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Some fun ideas for potions/items:

 

Potion of overexcitability: give this to a dragon who's description is still waiting to be approved and he'll float to the top of the que. This would be a cheap potion, would not affect mods seeing it, but would allow people who like seeing comments on their dragons get a chance at more comments

 

A potion to reverse refusals

 

A potion to lessen the chance of an initial refusal (cannot stack ontop of the potion used to reverse)

 

A costume kit to bring back halloween affects for dragons we want it for.

 

 

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Well, if CB limits are supposed to apply, please remember that there used to be a 1/scroll limit when hollies came around... wink.gif

 

Regarding Halloweens, I still think that they shouldn't be a dime a dozen if the other holiday breeds are limited, so... exponential price growth, maybe? The factor doesn't even have to be that huge...

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Well, if CB limits are supposed to apply, please remember that there used to be a 1/scroll limit when hollies came around... wink.gif

 

Regarding Halloweens, I still think that they shouldn't be a dime a dozen if the other holiday breeds are limited, so... exponential price growth, maybe? The factor doesn't even have to be that huge...

Seeing as how CB Holidays are only available in their own breeding window, I don't think any further limits on CB Halloweens are needed. After all, you can only get what you have slots for.... and those CBs are competing for slots with breds.

 

I don't know about everyone else, but I'd just get the one male CB Pumpkin I'm missing... and continue working on my lineages. I already don't have enough room to do all I want, I'm not going to waste slots on CB I already have 4 of (CB Marrows)... and certainly not those I have 20 each of!

 

So I see no need to add any further restrictions on Halloweens. Normal scroll limits are going to act pretty strongly as it is. And unlike breds.... You can't pass the CBs off to someone else to raise to near-adult.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Good point, I forgot about the competition with bred eggs. xd.png

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Query..

Is it set in stone that normal cavedropped dragons will be available in the store?

 

Because I'm dead set AGAINST that option. If it drops in the Cave, it should NOT be in the store. The ONLY dragons that should be for sale in the store are cb Tinsels, Shimmerscales, ALTS/hybrids and past Holidays. Basically, those dragons that do not drop in the Cave. I do not include Frills or old Pinks because those have been removed from the game by their artists request.

 

IF those 'special' dragons have ratios, I doubt it's anything like the regular ratios. The only real evidence we have are breeding statistics, and I don't think those qualify as true population ratios like normal dragons have. I believe this because you can ask 10 players about how well their 'special' dragons breed and get 10 different answers. But no matter who you ask, those who have 'special' dragons can name their price in the trade forums. Personally, I find that very disturbing, totally unfair and generally degrading to ordinary players. Allowing a tiny minority of players to dictate such an important part of the game is NOT realistic.

 

To alleviate that glaring offense, the price of said 'special' dragons should be low and easily obtainable to reduce the huge and growing gap between the haves and the have nots. Why? Because as time goes on, fewer and fewer of the 'special' dragons will continue to be bred. The owners of those 'special' dragons are already getting jaded and breeding less often. Some no longer breed for anyone but themselves or their friends. Some who do still breed no longer keep lists or accept requests. And the worst cases are those who no longer need to trade for anything except more of the 'special' dragons, so they only trade with other 'special' dragon owners.

 

All of which leads to the ordinary player never having anything 'special' to trade with, and the trade values of the 'special' dragons becoming astronomical.

 

TJ should have NEVER held the first raffle or given out a single 'special' dragon. ANYTHING that widens the gap between the haves and have nots is BAD for the game and should be fixed immediately if not sooner.

If you want to alleviate the differences between the rich and the non-rich, then you kinda NEED normal cave dragons available in store. 2g Prize dragons have already become a lot more obtainable with each raffle that's happened (still not obtainable for everyone, sure, but I've seen an exponential increase in my own ability to get my paws on them, and I'm not someone who is good at catching CB Metals / rares, at all. In fact, I barely cave hunt, and I'm fairly reclusive besides... but anyway). If you make CB Prizes available to everyone in time (which I am looking forward to!), then it's a fact that the prices of their descendants are going to keep going down and down and down. They'll probably always be worth a decent price, but the real mega-rares will go back to being CB Golds / Silvers. Which... many players who have played for many many years still haven't been able to get any of themselves, because they either don't have fast enough connections to catch them, or don't have the time to stalk the cave all day, or in all likelihood both.

 

So, if you don't have normal dragons available in the store, then the gap is just going to shift from prize owners to metal owners. And the poor guys who haven't been able to get a CB Metal despite years of trying will continue to be unable to enjoy those breeds the same way the luckier ones can.

 

So I think EVERYTHING should be available in store, even if prices for rares have to be kept high to prevent a total ratio crash.

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Yes. What ADP just said. I worked for about 10 minutes trying to come up with my own post about this, but I couldn't say it as well, so I will bow to her. wink.gif

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Yes. What ADP just said. I worked for about 10 minutes trying to come up with my own post about this, but I couldn't say it as well, so I will bow to her. wink.gif

And I bow to both of them.

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OK, OK, I give tongue.gif ALL dragons available in the store, LOL.

 

My ideals, you would meet that goal in less than three years. Using the one a year limit that was pushed.. possibly 14 years (since every point would have to go into prizes to get them all). That is unreasonable to me. And should be to just about everyone else...

 

This is the point I want to push now.. the price for those 'special' dragons. 1 yr per egg is just way too much. 1 every 3 months is the price I'd like to see. That's a maximum of 4 per year, compared to the 52 possible 2nd gens per year available to current prize owners. AND those current prize owners could very well decide that they want more and be spending their points for them too.

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OK, OK, I give tongue.gif ALL dragons available in the store, LOL.

 

 

 

This is the point I want to push now.. the price for those 'special' dragons. 1 yr per egg is just way too much. 1 every 3 months is the price I'd like to see. That's a maximum of 4 per year, compared to the 52 possible 2nd gens per year available to current prize owners. AND those current prize owners could very well decide that they want more and be spending their points for them too.

Glad we could persuade you biggrin.gif

 

I certainly wouldn't mind a smaller price, but I think 3 months is too little. Golds and silvers will be worth less than prizes (presumably?), so that means you'd be looking at a Gold every month and a half and a Silver even less than that (rough estimate, of course, but you get the idea), which seems like it'd really whack with the ratios. I kind of like Thuban's idea where, with max points, you could just manage to squeeze out 2 CB Prizes, 1 CB Holiday, and maybe a few extra very cheap things each year. Then you could have golds be worth around 4 months and silvers around 2 months (again, just rough estimates), helping to keep them from flooding the cave.

 

The difference between what we'd be getting and what prize owners would be getting isn't as extreme as you fear, either. If you get a prize in 6 months, you get 26 shots at 2gs for the rest of the year. Aside from that, as someone who keeps an eye out for 2g prize trades, I know all too well that almost no prize owner is lucky enough to get 52 2gs a year. 10 2gs is a very good haul, and most prize owners get far less than that, depending on how common of a mate they're attempting to breed with. Last but not least, while they might have a head start at first, that gap will get smaller and smaller as time goes on. One versus none might seem a huge difference... but in three years I imagine 6 versus 7 will be no big deal. tongue.gif

 

...And overall, I'm just ecstatic at the idea of getting CB Prizes at ALL, whether or not current prize owners enjoy maximum glory for a few months longer or not is little matter to me xd.png

 

Other thoughts...

 

CB Holiday limit of 2: Aw, just saw this. While it makes sense for now, if TJ can ever be persuade to lift CB Valentine / Christmas limits, I hope and imagine the shop will change to reflect that?

 

Holiday prices: A thought that just occurred to me... should older holidays be priced higher than newer ones? Now, before everyone shoots me for that, let me explain! There'd obviously be a cap in place so that old holidays don't eventually cost 34034330 gold while new ones cost 10. But perhaps every holiday over five years old could have a set, moderate price, while newer ones scale downwards? While I certainly wouldn't complain if they were ALL equally cheap, a few people have argued against re-releasing CB Holidays in the past with "if there's no incentive to get on for holidays, people won't and the site will lose revenue," and "I was around to get these older holidays, that makes them valuable, I don't want to lose that value!" So, having higher prices for the oldest breeds would help combat that by still encouraging people to log in during holidays, and reward those who have been with the game longest by letting them "save" money on not having to buy older holidays they were around to collect. So in this way you still make all holidays reasonably obtainable, but you also still encourage people to log on during peak holiday times and give a reward to long term loyal players.

 

Gender swap potions: Hmmm, I have mixed feelings on these. I think the real gender should still stay the same, just have the sprite change. I'd also suggest they can only be used on UNBRED dragons. Anyone who works on lineages already knows you risk getting dead ancestors / derpy name changes in your lines if you collaborate with other people, and I'd rather not add to that risk the chance that one of the red nebulas in a 5g antarean x red nebula lineage could suddenly go rogue green xd.png

Edited by angelicdragonpuppy

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The original gender swap idea was for eggs only, I can't recall the name. Dimorphic Incubate? That would resolve the lineage issue.

 

Being able to gender-swap eggs and trade hatchies might add something interesting to the trading market. No idea how rigorously lineage hunters would chase something like that.

 

The more I think about the year for prizes the less I like it. I think a year is "obvious" as that is what it takes to catch CB holidays. But I think it devalues the store a bit in that the person would have to sacrifice all the cool potions. And boy, those potions look cool!

 

I do think 3 months sounds too low for a gold. I'd be concerned that we'd drive cave bred golds to extinction, maybe bred too.

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Regarding holidays: If TJ were to change the limits to allow extras to be bought the following year after a release, then yes, the store would reflect that. If he changes it to allow for catching more than two, then yes, the store would reflect that. It will specifically reflect the limitations that exist at the time frame that its an issue for.

 

 

As for Prizes: No, 3 months is far too low a price. My ideal scenario for 2 a year is fair. If you dont waste spare points after those two on holidays, potions or other things, you could feasibly afford 3, possibly 4 the following year, depending on how well you can milk the bonus points. I dont think more than three a year is going to happen though, without specifically stockpiling points for a year first.

 

Pricing in general:

In the end, specific pricing is 100% completely up to TJ to decide. I will continue to collect input on general thoughts about prices, but I have no plans, whatsoever to actually set specific prices in this thread. Time based pricing is enough to get the idea across.

 

In general, if going by rarity based or ratio based pricing it sounds like you guys would like to see:

blockers earnable every few days

commons once a week

uncommons every month

rares about every 3-4 months.

Prizes more than once a year

and holidays ranked as needed by year.

 

 

Hybrids are no longer an option at all with this store, sorry.

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As for Prizes: No, 3 months is far too low a price. My ideal scenario for 2 a year is fair. If you dont waste spare points after those two on holidays, potions or other things, you could feasibly afford 3, possibly 4 the following year, depending on how well you can milk the bonus points. I dont think more than three a year is going to happen though, without specifically stockpiling points for a year first.

Two prizes per year doesn't seem like a bad deal although I am not personally interested in buying them, so maybe that affects my perspective. (I'm mostly just interested in holiday dragons.)

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Oh, I'm really sad to see hybrids go, though I'm guessing it wasn't your decision. If they exist in the real world in the wild, why not a game where the creatures in question are highly intelligent and can choose their mates based on indivuality...? Bah. :/

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Well, 2 prizes a year seems generous - so who am I to argue?

 

Of course, if you want to get something that's not a prize, you'll only get one per year, plus whatever else catches your eye.

 

But there's one thing that bothers me about prizes being available, but not CB alts/hybrids: While the "winners" of previous raffles will have their prize devalued over time, the "honorable mention winners" who chose a CB hybrid or alt will soon own the most sought-after dragons in all of Valkemare. Well, them and the holiday spriters. wink.gif

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But there's one thing that bothers me about prizes being available, but not CB alts/hybrids: While the "winners" of previous raffles will have their prize devalued over time, the "honorable mention winners" who chose a CB hybrid or alt will soon own the most sought-after dragons in all of Valkemare. Well, them and the holiday spriters. wink.gif

I got a very clear, absolute no. If those are going to happen, it will have to be a different way. Not through this. Figured I'd rip the bandaid off quickly since i hadnt included them in the example pricing.

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