Trader's Canyon

[Pokemonfan13]

I don't see how things are getting skewed to prevent the average player from taking advantage of it? True, it's not as simple as it could possibly be, but most of the lack of simplicity comes from a system to prevent grinding, and grinding isn't fun for anyone. The ability to grind puts pressure on people to spend time on the site and grind, which takes time from better things they could be doing. It also makes people who don't have time to grind upset and jealous of the people who do because the people who grind have nicer stuff. But the anti-grinding system really honestly isn't that complex, it's just explained to a deeper level than is really necessary. It comes down to "You gain points by doing everyday actions that you normally do. The points you can get are capped, and that cap resets every 8 days."

 

Yes, we're debating minutiae. But for the most part, those details don't change how the system works for the average player. It just tweaks things in ways that make the system work more as intended and have fewer loopholes to exploit. For the average player it doesn't matter if bonus points for raising an underpopulated breed are given out as a lump sum when the dragon grows to adulthood or is split between three stages of raising that dragon, they're just going to grab an egg and raise it up for the bonus. But it DOES change the trading market for the underpopulated breeds. Do we want people raising the ones giving out the bonus just to trade them to someone else who gets the bonus? If we think that's fine, a lump sum at the end is the way to go. But if that goes against the spirit of the system, splitting up the bonus into the three stages limits that kind of market. But at the same time it doesn't stop the average player from just taking an egg that's on the underpopulated list and raising it just like they would have with the lump sum system.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[Vhale]

Part of the problem with prizes as currency is that trading needs currency. Prizes became the default. People went with prizes because they are moderately difficult to obtain and simple enough to understand. I've caught enough uncommons and bred enough 2g metals that I know it's very hard to trade rare eggs for CB hatchies. I've had 3g prizes grow up on my scroll too.

The only way to do it repetitively is with IOUs.

/ramble

 

Basically, we have an economy built around currency now, the problem is the access to the currency is limited and the benefits very random.

 

/ponders

 

I want to say it was UO, but it was a long time ago. But, UO had a contract system by which you got work orders and you had to fill them. I think you only got one per day. They were random and had varying degrees of difficulty. But say a work order was "Hatch 4 common alpine dragons (A,B,C,D)". When you had the items on you, you right clicked and they turned into a single scroll which you turned in and got a thing. I think I recall this could be sold or traded though I think it consumed the items, obviously not a thing here. It might be something that could be looked up, but perhaps it's something that could be researched as a possible option to trading/store/gaining points.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

You say 'tweaking the system'... I say gumming up the works with red tape. There are more average players than there are cheaters, so build the system for the majority.

 

I also think that you* are being too stingy with earned points. When you give items outrageous prices and only allow pitiful earnings, it isn't very user friendly. Having to save up for an entire year to earn enough points for ONE dragon, when those that already have cb prizes can trade for anything they ask for every 7 days???? That's like asking me to work for under minimum wage and expecting me to be happy that I can't pay my rent.

 

You want a level playing field? Then the prices of the 'special dragons' should be low enough to add LOTS of them into the system, so that the advantages of the few no longer outweigh the disadvantages of the many.

 

 

 

 

*you = general 'you', not anyone in particular

Edited April 6, 2016 by Cinnamin Draconna

[NotBambi]

You say 'tweaking the system'... I say gumming up the works with red tape. There are more average players than there are cheaters, so build the system for the majority.

^This.

 

I also think that you* are being too stingy with earned points. When you give items outrageous prices and only allow pitiful earnings, it's ins't very user friendly. Having to save up for an entire year to earn enough points for ONE dragon, when those that already have cb prizes can trade for anything they ask for every 7 days???? That's like asking me to work for under minimum wage and expecting me to be happy that I can't pay my rent.

^This.

 

You want a level playing field? Then the prices of the 'special dragons' should be low enough to add LOTS of them into the system, so that the advantages of the few no longer outweigh the disadvantages of the many.

^ And this.

[Pokemonfan13]

I have mixed emotions about the prices of rare things. On the one hand, I do like the idea of stuff being more available. But then the prices for stuff that's rare in the cave has to be high enough to not totally kill the ratios and make them stop dropping in the cave and breeding. That means it's gotta cost a good bit of time. And then stuff that's not actually available at all right now should probably cost more than stuff that is available but rare. Plus there's the whole "the stuff that's currently unavailable has to be somewhat hard to get, or TJ may not let us have it at all" thing. It's a balancing act.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[NotBambi]

I have mixed emotions about the prices of rare things. On the one hand, I do like the idea of stuff being more available. But then the prices for stuff that's rare in the cave has to be high enough to not totally kill the ratios and make them stop dropping in the cave and breeding. That means it's gotta cost a good bit of time. And then stuff that's not actually available at all right now should probably cost more than stuff that is available but rare. Plus there's the whole "the stuff that's currently unavailable has to be somewhat hard to get, or TJ may not let us have it at all" thing. It's a balancing act.

I have no idea why we should be attempting the balancing act by being "stingy" and restrictive . Leave that to TJ. Right now this suggestion sounds a lot like "grind and grind because we need you to grind to improve the ratios, not that you will get anything meaningful out of it."

No, thanks.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Do Prize dragons, CB Hybrids or past year Holiday dragons even have ratios? They don't drop in the cave at all, so why would they have ratios to start with?

 

I'm not worried about things that drop in the cave.. I don't even think that anything that actually drops in the Cave should even be available in the 'store'.

 

Those potions and/or other items are not what I'm worried about either, since I doubt I'd waste points on any of them.

 

The only things that matter to most of us are those dragons that we can't catch or breed. The 'special dragons'.. cb Tinsels, Shimmerscales, hybrids and past Holidays. I'm not including Frills or Old Pinks because they are discontinued by their artists request.

 

Players with those 'special' dragons can basically name their price for any 2nd gen they are willing to breed. And some of them won't even breed for anyone except themselves or their friends. Not to mention the ones who claim that 'you don't have anything worth my time'.

 

That's why we need the 'store' and the low prices.. so the haves can no longer dictate to the have nots.

[cyradis4]

I have no idea why we should be attempting the balancing act by being "stingy" and restrictive . Leave that to TJ. Right now this suggestion sounds a lot like "grind and grind because we need you to grind to improve the ratios, not that you will get anything meaningful out of it."

No, thanks.

The price is high because:

There are no limits on how many CB Prizes / CB Hybrids you can get

You want cheaper dragons? Fine. Then each person gets just ONE CB Prize and *maybe* (if TJ is being nice) 1 CB Hybrid *or* alt.

 

And once you have them? the high end stuff is useless to you. Same for CB metals. Because of the ratios, cheap = limits. Lots of them. Right now, the high price is acting *as* the limit.

 

Frankly, I'd prefer to have *patience* and get everything I want... even if it takes a while... Then be forced to get just one pretty. Patience is a forgotten virtue, these days.

 

As for the bonus being higher I could go for that. The question is how much higher? And as PF13 said.... paid out to the person who grows / freezes it, or in stages? Both have pros and cons.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Pokemonfan13]

NotBambi ...I really don't understand your view of this. The whole point of it is to allow the gaining of points through things that any active player already does. Yes, there are incentives to spend a little time helping the ratios, but there's nothing to force people to do it. It's a way to get things that many people see as basically out of reach, like CB metals, and things that are currently completely out of reach, like CB prizes. Just because you don't see any value in this doesn't mean others feel the same. And there's nothing to force you to even participate either, if it's ever implemented. You're perfectly free to ignore it and keep playing as you normally do.

 

 

(moved down from the previous post since a post was made while I was editing)

But this thread isn't about giving away stuff. Everything people buy from the store is earned, and choices have to be made about what to spend the points on. The thing here is, even if the price of a prize is high, the active newbie who was there when the store system was implemented will reach the price at the same time as someone who is "rich". That's actually a big reason why I'm against a system that essentially allows the trading of bonus points, it would allow the rich player to buy their way to the price of the big ticket items before everyone else.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Err... CB Prizes are meant to be rare. If they were a dime a dozen then they'd be of no use to anyone really and the whole point would be defeated. People who already have CB Prizes have owned the market for years, too, so I don't see why that's a reason to get upset when we should be happy and hopeful we get a way to obtain them at all.

 

I mean a lower price is one thing (6 months worth of points maybe? Literally halves the work required but still leaves them very scarce), but they shouldn't exactly be easy to get either.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

You want cheaper dragons? Fine. Then each person gets just ONE CB Prize and *maybe* (if TJ is being nice) 1 CB Hybrid *or* alt.

 

Says who? TJ hasn't said anything. That's just one of the unnecessary limitations imposed by those who think the system will be exploited.

 

Why should I be limited to only 1 'special dragon' when some of the raffle winners have 2? Not to mention the artists with special sprites that no one can get, period.. I didn't even bother to mention those before because that's a 'never happen' scenario.

 

But you know what? Even the raffle winners can get more if you forget the stupid limitations. Isn't that fair enough?

[Vhale]

Prizes have the same ratios and breeding patterns as everything else. If they didn't, it would be far easier to get one from common pairings. But it's not. If everyone got a prize tomorrow they'd do the same thing that almandines, blacks, vines and probably lunars did. Become user driven rares. And the trade market would go back to being skewed towards people catching CB metals. Eliminating 2g prizes from the trade market only serves to eliminate them for... some sense of satisfaction? It does nothing to change the overall market.

[cyradis4]

I have no idea why we should be attempting the balancing act by being "stingy" and restrictive . Leave that to TJ. Right now this suggestion sounds a lot like "grind and grind because we need you to grind to improve the ratios, not that you will get anything meaningful out of it."

No, thanks.

An active Gold scroll will hit their limit every single time period without doing anything extra.

 

Every. Single. Time.

 

There's a ton of padding in there. Because of that limit, you literally *can't* grind. Oh you can try.... but it'll be a lot of wasted effort.

 

If the bonuses are upped, and a person does them a *lot*, then yea they'll get that pretty shiny faster. But then... the *Biomes* will also move faster, which helps almost everyone.

 

So yea I'm not buying your "I won't use it" claim... because the points will accumulate weather or not you "play" the store... and who can resist free stuff?

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited April 6, 2016 by cyradis4

[NotBambi]

What is annoying me here is that the way this suggestion is going, the people that own the market, without doing anything to earn anything, will still own the market. The "not haves" will grind for long time to earn what "the haves" got by dumb luck. And the "not haves" will always be several steps behind.

 

@cyradis4: tell me where I claimed " I won't use it". For sure I will not "grind" and that's what I said.

 

You want cheaper dragons? Fine. Then each person gets just ONE CB Prize and *maybe* (if TJ is being nice) 1 CB Hybrid *or* alt.

And who decided that? You?

 

Classic example of people adding limits and restrictions.

Edited April 6, 2016 by NotBambi

[Pokemonfan13]

Yea, and it's literally impossible to set it up to make up the current difference between the "haves" and the "have nots". The "haves" will always have more, even if what they have is simply due to luck. So why not settle for something that at least tries to level the playing field a little in the future?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Pokemonfan13

[Thuban]

Ok, I think this is a good time to step in and remind everyone that:

• The numbers in the first post are merely examples and are NOT set in stone. TJ will have final say in how this goes, if it goes at all.

• From the beginning of this thread, and the original one it stemmed from, the challenge has been to find a way to give people those dragons they cant get for whatever reason due to not being available in cave, or affordable by trading for players who arent bogged down with fancy lineages.

• It has never been meant to be a MAIN form of getting dragons, only supplemental at best. Its been carefully worked out to minimally impact the standard day to day play, and address concerns about adding currency to this game as a whole.

• I have spent this entire thread balancing what you guys, the users actually weighing in have been saying.
  • Limits were set because of the "anti grinding" crowd.
  • Limits were set because of anti-currency mindset.
  • currency is NOT tradable (and working this out is a very, very low priority for me) because of worries about this sites economy ending up being just like other games.

__________________________________________________________________________

I have spent way more time and effort trying to find the middleground for how I want to see this idea of mine play out, than most suggestions I follow. I recently went through every single page of this suggestion, to find every single thought and idea that was brought up, and the compromises you guys came up with and used that to rebuild the framework from the ground up. While i realize that the numbers in the example do complicate things a little, the goal was to use easy to follow numbers and examples. There will be charts and things eventually, when this sick im dealing with goes away.

 

I was trying to steer this thread towards working on very specific things at a time. The numbers, right now are lower priority. Those are things that will be addressed, when they can be, but at this point, streamlining the issues we need to tackle will help make it easier to finish fleshing the specifics out. If the prices are indeed an issue (at this time I do not feel they are, on account of all the numbers being examples, and on account of the fact that how prices are being set in general wont necessarily follow my plans anyhow due to not wanting prices to actually show rarity)

 

Feel free to pm me or come find me in chat (any chat, not just irc), if you need a more detailed breakdown of how specific things work, so we can avoid the talking in circles thing starting back up again. Please and thank you. I can honestly answer questions better one on one. I have always been better at one on one.

 

Edit: First post has been edited to promise a discussion about pricing, after im done being sick

Edited April 6, 2016 by Thuban

[Ruby Eyes]

@Marie19R: Thanks, I'm glad you like them Some of these have been second-hand ideas from the Suggestions or Unreasonable Demands, turned into items

 

@Thuban: I hope you feel better soon

 

Are we still with the items-to-be-bought topic or is that done already? It seems to have drowned somewhat.

 

I've been thinking of another one:

Cape of Crossdressing: Changes the sprite of your adult dragon to that of the other gender (permanent effect).

That's for those who've been sad that certain lineages aren't possible due to current setup of gender dimorphism (like male Copper x male BBW, female Hellfire x blue Nebula).

 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ruby Eyes

[olympe]

I seem to remember a BSA suggestion with the same effect as your "cape of crossdressing", and there was some volatile opposition by some artists.

[Ruby Eyes]

Volatile? Sounds good to me, so they used up all their energy on that one already

 

(I'm not up-to-date with BSA suggestions, so feel free to point out any flaws in my item ideas.)

[olympe]

It might not have been a BSA, but something similar, but it was shot down quite vigorously. "Female red hellfires are not how I envision the breed, so I say no!" or something like that. It doesn't even have to have been hellfires that were mentioned, but that's the way the argument went. (Might have been nebulas or whatever.)

[VixenDra]

If there should be any numeral limit of how many dragons of certain breed&color(I treat gold Tinels and Bronze Tinsels as 2 separate breeds as they breed like separate: Gold wont produce Bronze out of a sudden) I'm against 1 and for 2 or more than 2, but definitely against just 1. You know, all limited breeds had limits of 2CBs, never 1(at least as far as I know).

 

And I'd like some opportunity to buy 2 additional GoN slots (upping the limit of 3 to 5)

 

 

and I'd definitely not keep anything I raise. Either abandon, or if I have to raise to adulthood, release (though I hate wasting CB dragons this way).

Edited April 6, 2016 by VixenDra

[Thuban]

<snip>

(I'm not up-to-date with BSA suggestions, so feel free to point out any flaws in my item ideas.)

I still need to go back to your other post and copy things down (to save). The topic im trying to cover currently is still items, but somehow, I dont think we will be able to keep the focus there at this time.

 

As for cape of crossdressing: I can see that one's name being offensive to a lot of users. Perhaps instead, a gender-bend potion?

Either have it flat out change the gender of a dragon, or simply just have it swap the sprites (so a male stays male, but has the female sprite instead). I think.. gender bending of any kind is going to be tricky, no matter how careful we are. (im cool with the thought, but not the name/description )

 

 

____________________________________________________________________

On another note: I apologize about last nights post from me being phrased so badly. I'm having a hard time understanding what happened between "before the update", and "after" that has you guys twitchy. I wasn't trying to be dismissive, but more, redirect the conversation back to the specific topic I wanted to flesh out, until I could acknowledge the specific concerns being brought up more fully.

 

Things I have absolutely no interest in fleshing out at this time:

-Trading currency between users for dragons.

-Selling dragons to the trader for shards.

-Mini Games

-Whether Mini Raffles will be a part.

(when I am ready to tackle these, they will have their own separate thread so that discussion can be more easily streamlined for specific things.)

 

The above items are all things that are not specifically needed for this suggestion to work, but that there is room to work in AFTER the important parts are fleshed out. They are just lower priority at this time.

 

Things I want to flesh out, but not on this thread itself AT THIS TIME: (later though once I have working examples to share.)

~Specific pricing for eggs IN the shop (Will work out several options for streamlined discussion, using very specific examples and NOT dc as a whole, because only TJ can do that.)

~Specific numbers for how many shards will be earn-able a day. I will continue to use example numbers.

(Expect a post later today with my thoughts on how earning shards and bonus points, as my view does differ from what cyra has been presenting )

 

Where I actually want to focus right now:

~ Potions and thoughts for the Items section of the trader.

~ How long it should reasonably take to earn a blocker/common/uncommon/rare/"special" (holidays, cb hybrids and prizes specifically. To keep things simple: Only Silver and Gold will be considered as rares, as they have been the standard of "rares" for as long as I have known about this site, and played. Not "how many people can have", but "how long should it take?"

[Ruby Eyes]

Would you mind explaining to me inhowfar crossdressing - a term I've seen used in perfectly innocent context - is offensive? Even more offensive than gender-bending?

(As far as I've seen/read, outrightly changing an adult dragon's gender hasn't been regarded too well either. Hence the idea to only change the sprite (but leave the dragon's actual gender untouched.))

 

Or is it the cape that's offensive?

 

 

Considering that it took me 5 years to catch a Gold myself, I'm fine with Golds and Silvers taking 4 to 6 months or so to collect ... that's still way faster than I can catch them!

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ruby Eyes

[Vhale]

Gender Bender is cute. I don't recall the discussion being volatile. Though I could see some people having strong feeling about trans in general not caring for it. I suppose that dips a political toe in.

 

As far as time it takes to earn. On the surface, I agree a year is good. Below hte surface, we all have that One Dragon who fricken refuses to breed. And it's happened to prize owners. So I'd ask for either a shorter time frame in case of dud. Or a potion to somehow reset a dragon's breeding habits. I'm very suspicious dragons have some sort of code that marks down how willing they are to breed or get refusals.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I'm trying to stay on topic, but some things are really getting me riled up and I'm doing my best to remain civil and polite. And for the record, I'm totally neutral on the potions/items option.

 

Query..

Is it set in stone that normal cavedropped dragons will be available in the store?

 

Because I'm dead set AGAINST that option. If it drops in the Cave, it should NOT be in the store. The ONLY dragons that should be for sale in the store are cb Tinsels, Shimmerscales, ALTS/hybrids and past Holidays. Basically, those dragons that do not drop in the Cave. I do not include Frills or old Pinks because those have been removed from the game by their artists request.

 

IF those 'special' dragons have ratios, I doubt it's anything like the regular ratios. The only real evidence we have are breeding statistics, and I don't think those qualify as true population ratios like normal dragons have. I believe this because you can ask 10 players about how well their 'special' dragons breed and get 10 different answers. But no matter who you ask, those who have 'special' dragons can name their price in the trade forums. Personally, I find that very disturbing, totally unfair and generally degrading to ordinary players. Allowing a tiny minority of players to dictate such an important part of the game is NOT realistic.

 

To alleviate that glaring offense, the price of said 'special' dragons should be low and easily obtainable to reduce the huge and growing gap between the haves and the have nots. Why? Because as time goes on, fewer and fewer of the 'special' dragons will continue to be bred. The owners of those 'special' dragons are already getting jaded and breeding less often. Some no longer breed for anyone but themselves or their friends. Some who do still breed no longer keep lists or accept requests. And the worst cases are those who no longer need to trade for anything except more of the 'special' dragons, so they only trade with other 'special' dragon owners.

 

All of which leads to the ordinary player never having anything 'special' to trade with, and the trade values of the 'special' dragons becoming astronomical.

 

TJ should have NEVER held the first raffle or given out a single 'special' dragon. ANYTHING that widens the gap between the haves and have nots is BAD for the game and should be fixed immediately if not sooner.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Cinnamin Draconna