Trader's Canyon

[Thuban]

My impression from what Thuban posted, and my preference, would be that the trader is there for a week maybe once a month. If he's there for a whole week most people would have time to figure out how to get what he's asking for what they want.

 

Trader shows up to (a group) of users for a week to ten days. An example for how to break down when people get visited would be to just use the Snow Angel colors. 3 groups, each group gets a week or so, before he moves onto the next.

 

*Has inventory that cycles out depending on what the cave is doing. It may not have every breed, sometimes it might only have 20 different breeds (in varying numbers) other times, might simply have ten.

 

*Does NOT rely on points. It just says "i need (thing) for this egg. Depending on the coding for the proposed RNG, he might simple ask for just eggs or hatchys of certain breed types (bred one of ANY lineage type would be usable, unless it asks for cbs). For the more rare types of pairings, a combination of hatchlings and eggs may be requested, or rare eggs. This will be different for EVERY trade.

*With this system, Prizes would then be handled like normal trades. The trader either has them, or doesnt have them, and your ability to get them or not would come down to whether you can find what hes asking for. This is no different than how trading already works. Supply and demand

I see NO reason to limit people on how many times they can trade to Trader (excluding the special rares). If you can come up with the items hes asking for, before he leaves town,. its nothing more than JUST trading.

 

During HOLIDAYS, trader will exist to EVERYONE. There would be plenty of time to find what the trader needs (it very well could ask for other holiday dragons you know..)

 

 

Special Rares (holidays and prizes more specifically) Will, as always worth within the already existing site limits. No more than two cbs per scroll (Halloweens may need to be included honestly, but not set in stone there).

 

Prizes: 1 of each type, per scroll (with the trader tag), Once per time of him showing up. The would HAVE to happen in limited numbers, unfortunately, in order to keep their ratios whenever it is they are supposed to be. If the raffle is only giving out 600 of each time a year, then thats ALL that can be made available through the trader, which IS unfortunately a first come first serve. However, with the limit that each person may only take one of each type, and having multiple shots a year.. it would be possible that users could get multiple type within a year, but then they are no longer eligible for more. This trader could choose to only have 10 of each type per week available, or 20 of one type but there is NO guarentee it would have them available weekly for everyone. Tj could simply choose to only have them available for the dry spells where we have no events to keep us busy.

[Fuzzbucket]

This is getting FAR too complicated.

[Thuban]

This is getting FAR too complicated.

The trader was nothing more than an alternate suggestion, in an effort to actually make things /easier/.

 

Points were tripping people up. Without knowing exactly what would be happening with points, the whole system was getting nitpicked. Having EVERY possible egg available at all times, was getting some hate too (especially off site). People were getting caught up in un-needed semantics (costs, limits, omg no more than x eggs a year ever)

 

There is no need for limits (outside of prize and holiday limits) with the trader. You are limited purely by what is in stock, and what it wants in return for eggs. Only the stuff that is meant to be limited would have stupidly hard trades involving hatchys and eggs,, not just one or the other. It is no different than a user asking for silly offers.

 

Example: Me

Have 3rd gen silver tin

Want: Red hatchy, Pink hatchy 2 blue eggs or 1 cb silver

 

Example: Trader

Has CB silver tin

Wants: Red Hatchy 2 blue eggs, vine egg OR Alt vine hatchy, ALT black hatchy, black egg

 

Its really not that different. I ask for strange trades like that all the time. I fill trade requests like that frequently as well. The difference between user trade and trading with the trader, is that the trader wont care if its a 50th gen purely inbred thing you are giving him, where users.. are more prone to "only pretty things". One of my second gen prizes the person wanted 20 different sprites, which was rather fun to fill.

 

Doing it this way removes the need to set up a system to track activity and assigning points to specific breeds (which people feel would devalue things). Because what it would ask for would be random based on relative rarity, instead of exact, theres nothing to cheapen or devalue anything. This helps newer players and older players alike have the challange of getting the eggs, while at the same time encouraging the trade market a bit for those messy things people have a hard time finding homes for.

 

There was also the suggestion that things traded in be dropped to the ap eventually. I dont particularly care, but I dont see a draw back honestly.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Thuban

[stagazer_7]

This is getting FAR too complicated.

I agree...

 

So there are no more points at all? I personally don't feel points devaluate anything (especially since rarity of all breeds is well defined in the DC Wiki) and still support this kind of 'currency' and I still like the original shop idea best - collect points, collect your reward, thank you very much! The trader idea was sounding kind of neat at first, I don't even mind about him having different stock everytime he turns up, but after reading more, especially about limits (I've harped long enough about why that bothers me and pretty much beaten that horse to death, so I'm not going into it again )... I'm not so certain anymore, I would need to hear more about what precisely is being planned for the trader/shop.

 

But I think this is still a neat idea and I'm interested in seeing how it'd be realized in the game. I just don't like limits and the first come first serve system. Isn't there a way to earn your Prize dragon in a non-competitive way? If I understood correctly, all other breed's numbers wouldn't be limited in the shop, not even Holidays, right?

Edited May 3, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Fuzzbucket]

Increasingly this simply begins to look like - an in cave trading system.

 

Which is OK but does nothing to reward dedicated play.

[Thuban]

Fuzz: trading DOES require dedication. Tracking down specific things people want for things they have, takes dedication. I hate that I have to rely on the forum for trades now. I dislike posting on forums enough that I would rather ignore my goals than post here. To do these trades, you would HAVE to breed your own things, hatch them when they want hatchys, or simply come here to the forum, posting what you are looking for and what you have to collect the varying things it would ask for in order to turn back around and trade them in to the trader. Its hard work, but at the end of it, you get what you are after, and walk away happy.

 

 

________________________________________________________________

 

So, we dont like points, because playing to earn points changes the game too much... but we also dont like a single npc trader that uses already existing mechanics, because it also breaks the game, just because "omg I wont have exactly what I want every single week". Points or trading aside,. the store was never going to have every single item available at all times. It was always going to change based on whats available (to account for ratios)

 

Coming up with fun ideas that stay simple, has stopped being fun. No matter what we come up with, it will be nitpicked. I'm personally done with offering alternate suggestions. If more people would have been offering tweaks to the suggestions happening throughout the thread, then perhaps we could have worked something out.

 

 

I'm done offering alternates. If we cant narrow down a specific idea and work out the kinks, then there is really no longer a reason for the thread to exist. Since a good number of the original mechanics suggested have ended up in other threads (what are there.. 5 now?) this specific thread may have run its course. You guys are free to hijack the thread, take ideas you like and dont like, and move them to other threads. I'll give it a few days, see if any new tweaks come up, and if not, I'll request the thread to be closed.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Fuzz: trading DOES require dedication. Tracking down specific things people want for things they have, takes dedication. I hate that I have to rely on the forum for trades now. I dislike posting on forums enough that I would rather ignore my goals than post here. To do these trades, you would HAVE to breed your own things, hatch them when they want hatchys, or simply come here to the forum, posting what you are looking for and what you have to collect the varying things it would ask for in order to turn back around and trade them in to the trader. Its hard work, but at the end of it, you get what you are after, and walk away happy.

 

I know it does. But the points thing does do more specifically to REWARD dedication.

[Thuban]

I know it does. But the points thing does do more specifically to REWARD dedication.

I would still be perfectly fine with points, however, people were getting caught up in how "doing things to earn points is against how the game works". Knowing that not every single item would be available at all times, is also a turn off. The main goal was to find a way to get the eggs that people want, into their hands while removing the raffle aspect. Even with the point system (and the crazy limits you guys decided to set) there is still the ratios to contend with which means that EVEN with the points, not everyone who could "afford" them, is going to get them.

 

People had complained about the idea that if you wanted prizes with point system, they would pretty much not be able to get anything else ever, for the 6 years or so that you guys had put in place... where the trading system would allow people to access to more than one in a week (if different sprites are offered) and then they would never show up again for THOSE users who traded. Its a way to get more into circulation faster while still forcing people to work for them.

 

 

Please, by all means, feel free to take the ideas that you like, and come up with a different variation that you think will work better than any of the ones that have been discussed. I've run out of ideas myself.

[_Sin_]

Coming up with fun ideas that stay simple, has stopped being fun. No matter what we come up with, it will be nitpicked. I'm personally done with offering alternate suggestions. If more people would have been offering tweaks to the suggestions happening throughout the thread, then perhaps we could have worked something out.

 

 

I'm done offering alternates. If we cant narrow down a specific idea and work out the kinks, then there is really no longer a reason for the thread to exist. Since a good number of the original mechanics suggested have ended up in other threads (what are there.. 5 now?) this specific thread may have run its course. You guys are free to hijack the thread, take ideas you like and dont like, and move them to other threads. I'll give it a few days, see if any new tweaks come up, and if not, I'll request the thread to be closed.

I wouldn't worry too much. When we post Suggestions/Requests, we are really submitting them to TJ with the added benefit of different points of view from the most vocal forum users. At least, that's the way I see it. He will be the one deciding on the details, if he decides to implement a suggestion, fully or partially. Just to reiterate, from my point of view, I would like a mechanism that's an alternative to the existing raffle without necessarily getting rid of it. I liked the idea of the mana game, I really love the idea of earning via "loyalty/activity" points instead of just relying on the "dumb luck" concept that is generally associated with raffles/lotteries.

I would bet that we will never be able to get a consensus from the (referenced above) vocal members. But... if TJ decides that he wants to have an additional/alternative mechanism, he will implement it. If not, we will all survive anyway

 

Edited... because I can't write.

Edited May 5, 2015 by _Sin_

[Fiona]

I know it does. But the points thing does do more specifically to REWARD dedication.

Personally, I never viewed the store idea as a dedication reward. I don't think it was proposed as a dedication reward but as an alternate way to obtain eggs, particularly prize eggs and perhaps HM, but with the bonus maaybe of getting regular eggs too.

 

I don't think anything like a dedication reward is needed. In fact, I think dedication rewards tend toward elitism and therefore are probably a bad idea.

 

 

The thread may indeed have run it's course. I don't know for sure, but I do know I have gotten a fairly clear idea of what people's view of this idea is and what they'd hope it would accomplish. What I don't think is true is that everyone's hopes are best for the game or workable. If anything like this is ever implemented it will have to balance what people want with what's best for the game.

[Ruby Eyes]

I would like to exclude myself from all the "you guys did this and that" bits.

I don't care about limits and "ratios" and "rarities" and whatnot.

I loved and still love your idea of being able to go to a place where I can see any eggs that could currently pop into existence, take my time to decide if I want a specific egg or not, and then do whatever is needed to do to acquire that egg without any haste, just so I can build pretty lineages with it.

 

Thanks for sharing your ideas

[Fuzzbucket]

I would like to exclude myself from all the "you guys did this and that" bits.

I don't care about limits and "ratios" and "rarities" and whatnot.

I loved and still love your idea of being able to go to a place where I can see any eggs that could currently pop into existence, take my time to decide if I want a specific egg or not, and then do whatever is needed to do to acquire that egg without any haste, just so I can build pretty lineages with it.

 

Thanks for sharing your ideas

I'm OK with that as a basic idea - as long as

whatever is needed to do to acquire that egg

 

does not involve doing things that aren't part of the basic game - as in playing minigames, collecting mana in some way that isn't collect > raise > breed or anything.

[Ruby Eyes]

I would assume you're okay with that as long as it doesn't *require* those other activities, no?

[Fuzzbucket]

I would assume you're okay with that as long as it doesn't *require* those other activities, no?

Exactly. That no-one shall be disadvantaged if they don't want to play mana, collect pretty butterflies, do other non-game things.

 

I can live with it taking me longer to earn myself a second CB sweetling, for instance, as long as I can still get it just by playing, even if I know I could get it faster by playing some added game or other. Because I don't usually have TIME for even more stuff. (Not to mention, come to think, the current severe cave lag NOT JUST ON THE HOUR - if extra activities made that worse, some of us might HAVE to quit playing at all...)

 

 

 

 

Edited because I don't think I can EVER get a CD sweetling,

Edited May 5, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Personally, I think that the trader has quite some potential - as long as it doesn't work on a first come, first serve basis with strict limits on how many things are available. Because that's the one thing that would turn it into another glorified raffle. I'm also against randomness regarding what the trader has for sale: Someone might get all 6 prizes in just one year, and another player not see any of them in several. What this "randomness" needs is an algorithm to even the playing field.

 

I'd also like to see the trader help ratios by offering hatchlings of underpopulated (uber-common) breeds to people for any random egg.

[Syphoneira]

I would like to exclude myself from all the "you guys did this and that" bits.

I don't care about limits and "ratios" and "rarities" and whatnot.

I loved and still love your idea of being able to go to a place where I can see any eggs that could currently pop into existence, take my time to decide if I want a specific egg or not, and then do whatever is needed to do to acquire that egg without any haste, just so I can build pretty lineages with it.

 

Thanks for sharing your ideas

 

 

 

 

Applauds.

 

And if it was possible to go back more toward the original simple type of thing Thuban was suggesting, perhaps with some of the original elements as with the above-mentioned games some wanted even independently of this (I'd love a simple time-waster, myself,) in conjunction with the activity-earned points/whatever store idea, I'd should think it would work out well enough.

 

Apart from anything else, some of us would like to see new Prizes every couple of years but only if they were distributed and bred in such quantities as to not step back into the morass we're just crawling out of, (thanks to TJ and the 600-dragon Raffle Release) without having the older Prizes and HMs (specially Hollies!) in danger of going extinct, for the latter of which we would then need some route of alternative access such as this suggestion.

 

Many of us are here for the dragons, and value sprites for themselves or for other reasons than trade value, which is only an aspect of a part of the game and not even important to all, except when it becomes a negative factor due to sprites being priced out of any normal range for extended periods, stalling normal game-play related to these for many, perhaps forever; it seems to some of us illogical that a priority of eternally maintaining high trade prices for certain sprites should form a permanent barrier to advancement generally, rather than members eventually gaining such dragons/offspring suitable for lineages while moving the goalposts onward toward shiny new others on a regular basis.

 

And additional restrictions beyond those of time and availability are, I personally feel, unnecessary complications likely to spoil the fun, if not entirely prevent any possibility of implementation.

 

Perhaps if we could return to the original criteria, what people originally wanted from this, and stay within the area of reasonable compromise, this could become a thing.

[Jazeki]

I wouldn't mind something that combines both trader and points elements.

[Guillotine]

Honestly having a normal points store but with a "trader" section where you could trade any one egg for a hatchling of a breed that's underpopulated according to the cave sounds like a good idea.

 

Honestly, I'm more for a plain jane store than anything else; the in-game trade idea is interesting, but on its own wouldn't really get what I was looking for from this.

[stagazer_7]

Personally, I think that the trader has quite some potential - as long as it doesn't work on a first come, first serve basis with strict limits on how many things are available. Because that's the one thing that would turn it into another glorified raffle. I'm also against randomness regarding what the trader has for sale: Someone might get all 6 prizes in just one year, and another player not see any of them in several. What this "randomness" needs is an algorithm to even the playing field.

This. First come, first serve is the only thing that bothers me, be it in a shop or with the trader. Otherwise I think both ideas are very neat and would add a lot to the game.

 

I still like the point system where you can acquire points by doing basic things on your scroll, like naming, influencing, incubating... And while people seem to dislike points as a mean of currency for dragons (for some reason), perhaps it could be used in another way. Maybe an interaction with the trader in certain situations could require points - I don't think it would be necessary for commons and uncommons, but when buying rares, like Metallics, Holidays and especially Prizes it could offer a solution that would reduce the randomness olympe mentioned.

 

Edit:

 

And the amount of points wouldn't necessarily need to be impossibly high - maybe something simple, like doing 10-20 or so daily actions would earn your daily point and you'd need 2-3 months worth of points to open the Holiday or Rare section of the shop, a 5-6 month worth of playing the Prize section and so... It would mean people would need to plan what they wish to buy - do I spend my half my points on a Prize or will I decide to spend them all to open all Holiday section (I suppose each holiday type should have their own section, Christmas, Valentine and Halloween one) in one year and get access to CB Metallics and other rares (when they become available of course)? Decisions, decisions...

Edited May 6, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Guillotine]

This. First come, first serve is the only thing that bothers me, be it in a shop or with the trader. Otherwise I think both ideas are very neat and would add a lot to the game.

This is honestly my biggest worry. The idea of the store as I understand it is a sort of balancing act for slow connections/bad reflexes/disabilities and a way to make the breeding pools for limited CBs bigger. The former aspect would be totally eliminated if it were first-come first-serve. Having rares available for a limited time period is fine, but having them limited by number in the store doesn't sit well with me.

 

As far as trades go... if we must go that route, I'd rather that trades could consist of any dragon and that rares required hatchling(s) and points, personally (or have them be behind "paywalls" of sorts). Making them require a degree of time investment would help balance it out, i feel.

[Thuban]

Maybe they wouldnt have to be limited. I dont know. I assume they would have to be, but /maybe/ they wouldnt have to be. That's one of those "We need to poke T.J" things.

[stagazer_7]

I believe there should be conditions to be met if you wish to buy a rare dragon and if these conditions are strict enough we could avoid the limited dragon releases in the shop/trader. Of course, the final decision will be TJ's.

 

The trader could say something along these lines:

"These special dragons eggs were very hard to come buy, you need to prove you can take care of them."

 

And you'd prove it by having enough daily points, points you'd gather by playing the game on a regular basis. By having them the trader would be willing to discuss the price of his dragon with you (so points wouldn't be a currency). I imagine you'd need points to unlock each rare section of the shop and this could also reset each year, so you wouldn't end up with a completely unlocked shop and without a need for points, that would accumulate for no purpose. How many points would be required to unlock a specific section of the shop is up for discussion, but I think it should be designed so you couldn't open everything in a year. That way you'd need to plan and choose which dragons you'd like to get now and which ones you'd wait to get next year?

 

This along with a scroll limit of how many Rares you could get per scroll and per year could make the in-shop limits unnecessary.

Edited May 9, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Syphoneira]

Well, for the shop, people were typically suggesting the points be high enough that average play would allow for several Holidays OR one Prize and perhaps a Holiday in a year, so I should think that this would form enough of a restriction on its own, especially considering that people would likely want a variety of dragons, should they be available.

 

IF this enabled new Prizes to be issued every couple of/few years, would it really be such an issue if anyone had up to 6 older Prize dragons in, say, 2022, when there might have been several new Prizes issued in the interim?

 

Or several of each of their favorite Halloween and/or some or all of their missed other Holiday sprites for mates/lineage-building and/or a Prize or three?

 

It would take at the least months or up to a year (or more, depending on when this theoretically would be implemented) for anyone to be able to obtain anything via this method to begin with, so it's not as though there would be any immediate flood of people getting any of these dragons, (assuming that Holidays, Prizes and perhaps some CB Hybrids to be available through this, and at VERY limited times of the year which are also hectic periods where scroll space is a major issue, due to lineage collecting of Holidays for the coming year) never mind any particular sprites, as there would be a fair bit of calculating, picking and choosing involved, apart from anything else.

 

We have to consider the time involved in this proposal, and the fact that there are more priorities for more people than those of NOT being able to get dragons/mates/lineages, if we want to encourage people to spend more time here and grow the site so that it's sure to be here in all these years ahead that we keep planning for.

 

The more new/newly available dragons there are which people can actually get with reasonable time and effort in order to start collecting others, the more time more people spend here, because they come here to have fun, something which many may get very little of in RL - and too many have gone on lengthy hiatus from which they may only return when they know there are new dragons to come back for; this may be longer term but would add to the incentive of staying to play, if they felt it to be worthwhile in the foreseeable future.

 

 

Edit: just to add, one couldn't plan without knowing which dragons might be available to them in any given year, and if randomly offered, (as with the Trader suggestion) people might not ever gain access to the dragons they actually want at a time they could afford them.

 

Also, the waiting periods already suggested here are of such length that I doubt anyone wants to additionally undergo a more complex version of the GoN-type uncertainty over the coming years, speaking as someone who's yet to successfully Summon her 3rd GoN and for whom most of the thrill had pretty much GoNe by the time she finally got her first two, lol.

 

Now I need the other as a mate, and it's taking forever again, drat it!

 

 

Since this is a family site and dragon collecting game with many people having slower systems and often interested in trading only to obtain dragons they need, personally, I'd think it more practical that permanently maintaining unprecedentedly high (if now reduced) trading prices formed less of a concern than the actual dragons, game and community, without any of which the site would not survive.

 

After all, with each new Prize, new owners would have a couple of years of exclusivity to build up their scrolls using these, with a demand always existing for their offspring regardless of however many other sprites might be released or obtained by others, so they're always ahead of the game, whatever happens.

 

This just enables us all to have an opportunity at some defined point to achieve and to move on to new goals, potentially creating more new goals in the form of lineages.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Syphoneira

[olympe]

I believe there should be conditions to be met if you wish to buy a rare dragon and if these conditions are strict enough we could avoid the limited dragon releases in the shop/trader. Of course, the final decision will be TJ's.

 

The trader could say something along these lines:

"These special dragons eggs were very hard to come buy, you need to prove you can take care of them."

 

And you'd prove it by having enough daily points, points you'd gather by playing the game on a regular basis. By having them the trader would be willing to discuss the price of his dragon with you (so points wouldn't be a currency). I imagine you'd need points to unlock each rare section of the shop and this could also reset each year, so you wouldn't end up with a completely unlocked shop and without a need for points, that would accumulate for no purpose. How many points would be required to unlock a specific section of the shop is up for discussion, but I think it should be designed so you couldn't open everything in a year. That way you'd need to plan and choose which dragons you'd like to get now and which ones you'd wait to get next year?

 

This along with a scroll limit of how many Rares you could get per scroll and per year could make the in-shop limits unnecessary.

Sounds like a reasonable idea, but I'd like to suggest a slight change:

 

If you unlock one of the rare sections, you can only one single egg from there before the section is locked again.

 

This, in itself, is a limit for every player - as in, you can only buy 1 prize every X months.

 

Of course, if you unlock a holiday section, that section stays open until the end of the respective breeding season, no matter how many holiday eggs you trade for.

Edited May 9, 2015 by olympe

[Syphoneira]

Sounds like a reasonable idea, but I'd like to suggest a slight change:

 

If you unlock one of the rare sections, you can only one single egg from there before the section is locked again.

 

This, in itself, is a limit for every player - as in, you can only buy 1 prize every X months.

 

Of course, if you unlock a holiday section, that section stays open until the end of the respective breeding season, no matter how many holiday eggs you trade for.

 

 

 

 

 

But since with the prices suggested for the Prizes and the caps on weekly accumulation of points,

 

you could only get one maybe once or at most possibly twice a year,

 

(and probably only if you got nothing else, and they'd only be available for a short period every year anyway under some suggestions)

 

what's the point of locking that area when nobody could get more during that period anyway

 

or if they simply wouldn't be available except for a short period every year?