Addition to the main site Terms and Conditions

[Dubious]

I would like to put forward a suggestion that an addition be made to the 'Terms and Conditions' on the main Drag Cave site:

 

All art on Drag Cave may at any time be subject to updates and changes.

 

Edit to add a very valid idea also brought up in this thread...

 

A line about dragon availability would also be a good addition (to help avoid complaints about limited releases, retired breeds, etc).

 

The availability of dragons, or any particular breed of dragon is at no time guaranteed. Any breed may be subject to retirement from usage on Drag Cave. Due notice will always be given in this case.

 

 

The reasons why I think adding these lines/points to the Terms and Conditions are that:

 

People would be forewarned that dragons they collect are subject to change at any time, when they sign up to the site. We will all be on the same page and everyone knows exactly where they stand in regards to changes made to dragons.

 

It should eliminate the aggravation and upset that occurs every time a change is made to an existing dragon. Or at the very least diminish it a lot. Again everyone knows where they stand, upset users have no leg to stand on when complaining. I say this as a user that has been upset numerous times myself by sudden changes to my dragons.

 

TJ has something solid to fall back on when changes are made, without having to explain his actions over and over to upset users. He can simply point to the Terms and Conditions.

 

 

In conclusion:

 

I really think this will eliminate a good bulk of the upset and drama that often occurs here and make things easier all around. At the very least users will be less blindsided when changes to their dragons are announced/occur and therefore less inclined to feel upset about it. It becomes an official part of DC, you may like or hate it when certain changes occur, but it will be easier to accept when the possibility of changes is already laid out in the rules.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[Reidragon]

Support! While I don't think this will eliminate all drama I am with you in thinking it might tame the lions share of it. People will know what they are getting into beforehand.

[Xasora]

A line about dragon availability would also be a good addition (to help avoid complaints about limited releases, retired breeds, etc).

 

Definitely support the proposal in OP. Seems like it'd be a very simple change, and I don't think it'd stop all discussion/arguing, but it'd be a good place to start.

[Fizzix]

I don't think an addition to the terms and conditions will actually alleviate upset. All it will allow to happen is the cycle of pointing out that it is posted somewhere that these changes can happen and either continued unhappy grumbling/a chorus of suggestions to change that policy or the inevitable "well I didn't know/didn't read it/didn't understand".

 

For reference, the agreement that artists sign when their art is selected for the site is available here, and is linked in the Dragon Requests forum's section rules.

 

If anything, a notice that the site will continue to grow and develop, and that efforts will be made to communicate upcoming changes could be added, but I don't think that is terribly necessary either. A lapse in communication happened that upset some people with an unexpected turnout, but overall the situation got blown out of proportion by a small number of loud voices.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Announcing that things can happen on the site that I hate will not make them any less unpleasant to me nor shut me up.

 

The site wants to keep players happy, a "oh but we told you this could happen" response is a very poor bandaid to throw over unnecessary changes that upset a lot of users, and will not stop me asking for changes.

[Dubious]

A lapse in communication happened that upset some people with an unexpected turnout, but overall the situation got blown out of proportion by a small number of loud voices.

I really think we cannot simply pass it off as a 'small number of loud voices', to my reckoning 50% of the posts would be a very reasonable estimate as to the number of people upset at not being warned that their dragons would change before collecting them, in the Solstice thread. People behaved themselves, but people were very upset. I think forewarning by this line in the Terms and Conditions would actually dispel a lot of bad feelings when things do change, unexpectedly or not.

 

It won't shut everyone up, but it is something TJ can point to in order to demonstrate to users that changes can and will occur.

 

With a solid statement, no one can have a leg to stand on for complaint. Yes people will grumble and be unhappy, but instead of the speculation about how and why TJ did it, it is stated in the Terms and Conditions that TJ has a right to do it and that cannot be argued with. Right now it is all so wishy washy with users uncertain where they stand in regards to changes made to dragons and I believe that itself contributes the greatest to the upset.

 

Information regarding changing dragons is not stated anywhere (certainly no where that the mass userbase can access or even knows to access) and that leaves people thinking that if they stand up and shout something can/will be done. What harm is there in stating it in 'stone' where everyone can see and has no excuse to not see.

 

Legally speaking that statement regarding changes should be there anyway, it certainly is included in every other Terms and Service that I have read. It basically covers the owner's backside in any event.

 

Another possible way of putting it...

 

'We reserve the right to make changes to all artwork on the site without notice, at anytime.'

 

No, people won't like that, but that is actually how it is right now and always has been and people have a right to be informed that this is the case before they collect and use the site.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[angelicdragonpuppy]

We already know TJ has the right to / can do it. No one questioned that. People questioned why he approved a decision (to make another sprite exclusive) that has been extremely unpopular with a lot of people every single time it happened and to this day calls are still being made to get those sprites back. That's what was upsetting. Not a lack of legal blabber stating what anyone who's been around for frill retirement and gold sprite updates already knows.

 

So sure, add it, but I highly doubt it will achieve what you are hoping it will achieve. It certainly will make no difference to me. If a company says they can change anything at any time (which many do) and then does something that really upsets people, they will still hear complaints about it.

[Fizzix]

I really think we cannot simply pass it off as a 'small number of loud voices', to my reckoning 50% of the posts would be a very reasonable estimate as to the number of people upset at not being warned that their dragons would change before collecting them, in the Solstice thread. People behaved themselves, but people were very upset. I think forewarning by this line in the Terms and Conditions would actually dispel a lot of bad feelings when things do change, unexpectedly or not.

 

It won't shut everyone up, but it is something TJ can point to in order to demonstrate to users that changes can and will occur.

 

With a solid statement, no one can have a leg to stand on for complaint. Yes people will grumble and be unhappy, but instead of the speculation about how and why TJ did it, it is stated in the Terms and Conditions that TJ has a right to do it and that cannot be argued with. Right now it is all so wishy washy with users uncertain where they stand in regards to changes made to dragons and I believe that itself contributes the greatest to the upset.

 

Information regarding changing dragons is not stated anywhere (certainly no where that the mass userbase can access or even knows to access) and that leaves people thinking that if they stand up and shout something can/will be done. What harm is there in stating it in 'stone' where everyone can see and has no excuse to not see.

 

Legally speaking that statement regarding changes should be there anyway, it certainly is included in every other Terms and Service that I have read. It basically covers the owner's backside in any event.

 

Another possible way of putting it...

 

'We reserve the right to make changes to all artwork on the site without notice, at anytime.'

 

No, people won't like that, but that is actually how it is right now and always has been and people have a right to be informed that this is the case before they collect and use the site.

Compared to the number of people who play the game, the forum participation is a small number. Personally, I stayed out of it because I thought it was kind of neat. Keep in mind that the threshold of participation is generally lower for those who are upset about something than for those who aren't; if I'm 'meh' about something, I probably won't go post about it on a forum, but if I'm livid about a change, I'm likely to do so. We're additionally hardwired to remember negative things more strongly, since those negative things historically presented threats to our survival.

 

Also, whether people "have a leg to stand on" to complain, they will regardless, and a notice saying TJ has the right to change things about the site doesn't stop people from asking why the changes were made, either.

 

I'm not saying that such a notice can't be added to the terms of service, but I'm just saying it won't exactly stop what you're claiming it will, either.

[purplehaze]

I don't think this will make one iota of difference in the number of complaints. Even if we remember being warned that art can change, people are still going to speak out if a change is made that they don't like. And being pointed back to that warning is only likely to inflame things more rather than calm them.

 

It is a DC tradition to complain -- loudly -- whenever things don't meet with our total approval. I don't think this will make us complain any less.

[Dubious]

As I said above, this will not shut everyone up, people will always state their opinion, but logically it very likely make a difference in the amount of drama by making changes easier for people to swallow on the whole.

 

Dragon changes will become a more 'official' part of Drag Cave as opposed to the confusion that is prevalent right now. Because it will turn what is considered 'patently unfair' in changing people's scrolls without their consent, into something more accepted as the norm because it is part of the 'rules'.

 

Regardless, it cannot hurt to try and the proof would be in the pudding as they say. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Simply accepting the drama and not doing something to negate it is not going to help the situation any.

 

A line about dragon availability would also be a good addition (to help avoid complaints about limited releases, retired breeds, etc).

Excellent idea! I added this to the first post.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[Syphoneira]

Announcing that things can happen on the site that I hate will not make them any less unpleasant to me nor shut me up.

 

The site wants to keep players happy, a "oh but we told you this could happen" response is a very poor bandaid to throw over unnecessary changes that upset a lot of users, and will not stop me asking for changes.

 

 

 

If I may add to this:

 

is the point actually to simply shut up unhappy players who, for example, would like to keep the dragons they collected on their scrolls the same - the way they like them - and prevent people from even asking for compromise, in such things as keeping their sprites rather than having them altered right on their scrolls into something else they didn't choose to collect?

 

Are the players to be so little regarded that sprites they love and collected can be changed into something else without their input being permitted?

 

Is it really better to have players simply shut up and go away, rather than feeling a part of the community and at least having a right to voice their opinions and give input as their feelings on site/sprite changes?

 

This strikes me as being akin to a gag order...

 

 

[Dubious]

is the point actually to simply shut up unhappy players who, for example, would like to keep the dragons they collected on their scrolls the same - the way they like them - and prevent people from even asking for compromise, in such things as keeping their sprites rather than having them altered right on their scrolls into something else they didn't choose to collect?

No, definitely not. The point is to let people know where they stand on things so that they are aware that their scrolls ARE ALREADY subject to change. So any expectation to the contrary doesn't come up and create drama. If players understand that changes are an official part of Drag Cave, then they will be less inclined to get blindsided and upset about them when they occur.

 

Beyond the official statement that 'expect that changes may be made' in the Terms and Conditions is entirely up to TJ. People will still make suggestions and ask him to change/not change things and it is all normal from there.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[Syphoneira]

No, definitely not. The point is to let people know where they stand on things so that they are aware that their scrolls ARE ALREADY subject to change. So any expectation to the contrary doesn't come up and create drama. If players understand that changes are an official part of Drag Cave, then they will be less inclined to get blindsided and upset about them.

 

Beyond the official statement that 'expect changes may be made' in the Terms and Conditions is entirely up to TJ. People will still make suggestions and ask him to change/not change things and it is all normal from there.

 

 

Lol, guess I was going by comments rather than what was meant in the Suggestion.

 

As a group, players have typically always felt that their scrolls/collected dragons were inviolate, untouchable by others, and that the official position didn't really contradict this perception.

 

A warning makes sense - but I'd hate to feel that it affected or reflected a rejection of player input in such areas.

[Jazeki]

If the statement were included, "all art" covers the sprites as well. There's no need for the parenthetical. And, as that statement stands, "may" means that it could change. Not that it will. A more certain statement would be 'All art is subject to updates and changes at any time.'

 

Regardless, I don't think that just sticking a line of text in the T&C will do much in regards to placating anyone's feelings when changes do come up. DC is constantly evolving and it is understood that the site design and art direction will change.

 

Additionally, many people don't even read the T&C all the way through. If this were put in place and issues about art came up, having someone dismissively wave their hypothetical hand at the T &C and say "Yep, it's right there" when people start to cite their discontent isn't going to help resolve whatever the problem is. If anything, people will be mad that they're being pointed at something they already read or at the very least, understood.

 

People know there will be changes. It's communication that is the problem when these issues arise.

 

 

 

 

[Dubious]

 

People know there will be changes.

 

Not really, as evidenced below....

 

As a group, players have typically always felt that their scrolls/collected dragons were inviolate, untouchable by others, and that the official position didn't really contradict this perception.

 

This was always my thought on it, but we have had repeated evidence to the contrary. I would wager that the vast majority of players still think this though.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[Jazeki]

Dubious, I meant as the site evolves. DC is not the same as it was when it first started. People are more accepting of these changes when they are announced.

[Dubious]

People are more accepting of these changes when they are announced.

True.

 

Also...

 

'All art is subject to updates and changes at any time.'

Good point, I adjusted that to be more to the point as you suggested, in the first post.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[Fuzzbucket]

I really think we cannot simply pass it off as a 'small number of loud voices', to my reckoning 50% of the posts would be a very reasonable estimate as to the number of people upset at not being warned that their dragons would change before collecting them, in the Solstice thread.

50% of the posts in one thread from a very small number of people compared to the player base.Only one person I know posted in that thread; everyone I know from another forum where we trade info was perfectly happy with things. In fact they don't come here to post BECAUSE they hate the drama.

 

So that 50% is nowhere near valid as a figure indicating anything at all.

 

I don't care one way or another about this suggestion, but I don't think it will change anything at all.

[Auriene]

I don't care one way or another about this suggestion, but I don't think it will change anything at all.

Actually, I think that something would change. The large part of suggestions / requests threads would look like this:

 

- "I don't like this change because... (insert opinion). It could be done in another way... (insert suggestion)".

 

- "Did you read Terms and Conditions? The change has been made. Deal with it".

 

- "Well, I have the right to voice my opinion... (insert opinion / suggestion again)".

 

- "Your opinion is irrelevant, because... (Terms and Conditions)".

 

- "I HAVE the right to voice my opinion!".

 

- "Oh, stop complaining. The change has been made and we can't do anything about that... (Terms and Conditions)".

 

- "Maybe we can...".

 

- "We can't! Just read Terms and Conditions!"

 

- "But MAYBE we can!"

 

(repeat in changed form infinite number of times)

Edited January 12, 2015 by Aurigena

[Dubious]

In fact they don't come here to post BECAUSE they hate the drama.

 

This speaks volumes. How many others are unhappy but not saying anything. From this alone that estimated 50% who DID speak up could be estimated to be a MUCH larger number of unhappy users in the user base who didn't speak up because they dislike the drama. The drama exists because there is a problem here. Not because by some random strange coincidence only users who like drama ended up here. There is an issue and in order to combat it and stop the drama the 'rules' need to be clearer. Everyone needs to know where they stand and what to expect.

 

I don't care one way or another about this suggestion, but I don't think it will change anything at all.

 

All I can say is again nothing ventured, nothing gained. Surely instead of simply accepting the drama we should do something to try to negate it? This would be a very strong start imho.

 

Actually, I think that something would change. The large part of suggestions / requests threads would look like this.......

No, I disagree completely. As I stated above this would have NO effect whatsoever on request, suggestion threads. These lines are standard procedure on the majority of websites. They cover the site owner legally by preventing upset, drama and any legal action when changes are introduced. Users enter into things with their eyes open.

 

It WOULD affect the drama that goes on when unexpected changes are made like the sudden solstice changes etc... It would have absolutely NO effect on request, suggestion threads any more then is already the case when users tell people making suggestions that the changes have been already made and that their suggestions will not change anything.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Dubious

[Starscream]

Regardless, I don't think that just sticking a line of text in the T&C will do much in regards to placating anyone's feelings when changes do come up. DC is constantly evolving and it is understood that the site design and art direction will change.

 

I admit I do not know all the laws of my city and country. Though I know if I break them, will be caught, I will be punished and my declaration that "I didn't know" actually won't fly.

 

In a situation where I was doing something incorrectly and have been told otherwise I usually say "it won't happen again," or "I stand corrected".

 

So I am for changes as necessary to the T&C, People should check back frequently to keep updated. (its not that big and takes a while 30 seconds to read).

 

 

But yes, DC is evolving and if TJ chooses to add those to the T&C. As it Stands I, more often than not, read the small print. I want to know what I am getting myself into before I do and if I don't like how it is written there, I don't sign.

 

People are allowed to make suggestions, it helps a bit as feedback. But I will stand and say that those who are content are less likely to say something than the malcontent. As was stated, we are hardwired to remember bad stuff.

 

[BlindWolf]

All of the arguments over changes and additions already suffer heavily from "You're whiners and you shouldn't be complaining because it's TJ's site!" and he said, she said back and forth over statements made years ago used to try and shut people down and make them shut up. And besides that, changing what's in the TOC would do nothing to make people who are upset at this kind of thing stop being upset. You would be doing absolutely nothing positive here, all it would do is give ammunition to the kind of people who try and shut down opinions and suggestions and the exact kind of arguments that always, ALWAYS, seem to tear the conversation from reasoned arguments and expressions of opinion into straight up bickering and petty fighting in suggestion threads.

[Syphoneira]

50% of the posts in one thread from a very small number of people compared to the player base.Only one person I know posted in that thread; everyone I know from another forum where we trade info was perfectly happy with things. In fact they don't come here to post BECAUSE they hate the drama.

 

So that 50% is nowhere near valid as a figure indicating anything at all.

 

I don't care one way or another about this suggestion, but I don't think it will change anything at all.

 

 

Very true, and also with those not so happy about things.

 

In fact some shyer souls are afraid to comment in Suggestions at all because they're afraid of/don't see the point in having what they've actually said misinterpreted and would prefer to avoid being jumped on and called derogatory names like 'spiteful, greedy whiner' simply for politely posting their concerns.

 

But when people have preconceived notions, they sometimes find it easy to view everything in the light they expect to see, and we're all going to misread/misunderstand things at times.

 

If we maintain a basic tone of respect, though, and politely answer, inflammatory language won't further confuse the issue, and we can continue arguing at cross-purposes much more happily.

 

There's drama, and then there's DRAMA!

 

No large group of people is ever going to agree on everything, and having different opinions in various areas doesn't make people into enemies, just those with different viewpoints.

 

But having some warning of changes would certainly help enormously, as it's not encountering the sudden shock of having your dragons change abruptly, which can really throw people off, although I do agree that some will doubtless simply point to the TOS and say there you go - simply shifting from the old 'it's done, deal with it'.

[cyradis4]

All of the arguments over changes and additions already suffer heavily from "You're whiners and you shouldn't be complaining because it's TJ's site!" and he said, she said back and forth over statements made years ago used to try and shut people down and make them shut up. And besides that, changing what's in the TOC would do nothing to make people who are upset at this kind of thing stop being upset. You would be doing absolutely nothing positive here, all it would do is give ammunition to the kind of people who try and shut down opinions and suggestions and the exact kind of arguments that always, ALWAYS, seem to tear the conversation from reasoned arguments and expressions of opinion into straight up bickering and petty fighting in suggestion threads.

This. I was trying to think about how to phrase it, but.... This is pretty much it. Most threads don't start going downhill until one side starts to resort to name-calling ("entitled", "greedy", "loosers", ect), or telling people to "shut up and be happy". Personally... The bovine image of "happiness" that conjures really irritates me.

 

Of course, I'm a bit of an agent of chaos who thrives on change.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[TJ09]

The site terms generally relate to the site's interactions with people who use the site.

 

This isn't an interaction. It does not change anything about the site's interaction with people. It neither allows nor restricts any action that could be performed before.